View Full Version : Fatigue and morale
Hi,
I play with no fatigue (since the ai doesn't have fatigue) and with no morale (since otherwise my units seem to just flee way too easily and I feel unrealistic)
What do others use? I know I can send my cav all over the battlefield for pincer attacks and feints to break up a defensive formation, but then again, ones that I forget about typically get charged by infantry...and just stand there and take it.
oh the ai does have fatigue. crusades in desert provinces tend to become tired...really tired.
as for morale, well not all units have low moral and besides, you can make churches/mosques that upgrade moral :)
i recommend playing with fatigue and moral on. helps you become a better player :)
There are several settings that are available - no fatigue, unlimited ammo, time limits.
The AI units do feel the effect of fatigue.
The AI units do run low on ammo.
Time limits, especially on defense, end the battle when the issue is in doubt (aline form the from Commander of Wake Island, great stuff).
If you play with fatigue off you miss the whole desert aspect of the game, since silly English Knights can run around Tunisia without feeling the effect any more that a Futawwa or Bedouin might. Same goes for snow, there's some really interesting things that happen in the snow, but with fatigue off 'what's the purpose?'
Hills are another important aspect of the game. Its not realistic to charge uphill at a full run with armor and not get tired.
However, if its more fun for you, then I say play it as you like. That's what this game is for - to have fun. But since asked, I think fatigue is very important and I always leave it on. If you must turn something off, turn off the fauna.
ichi
In my view morale, fatigue and limited ammo are essential elements of the game that vastly improve the realism. This simply wouldn't be MTW without it. I'll never turn them off. However, I do turn the timer off because I find this also adds to the realism and allows for more interesting battles.
Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Mar. 02 2004,10:34)]In my view morale, fatigue and limited ammo are essential elements of the game that vastly improve the realism. This simply wouldn't be MTW without it. I'll never turn them off. However, I do turn the timer off because I find this also adds to the realism and allows for more interesting battles.
Of course, the timer is annoying. I turn it off alos, but.. sometimes, when that AI prollonges a battle to no end .. I wish to have it.
I do not turn the timer off. Many battles were no resolved because of night falling, and I dislike the idea that the sides can stay on the field indefinitely.
Quote[/b] (Ky Kiske @ Mar. 01 2004,22:28)]i recommend playing with fatigue and moral on. helps you become a better player :)
Especially if you intend to play multiplayer. It's a big jump fighting from the AI to fighting against real people. Made even harder if your trusted single player tactics no longer work as you now have troops that can get tired and flee http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I always play with everything turned on. Limited ammo, fatigue , morale, timer etc. They're all a big part of the gameplay.
morale is definitely important as otherwise even your peasants would be uber and fight to the last man.
realistically, they like to keep their heads on and would run. The AI breaks too and the battle would not be like shoggy. Even in shoggy, there is routing let alone in MTW where there isn't any crazy samurais who don't care about death.
fatigue is important as desert combat involves strategy so you can't just send your tin cans into the desert and expect them to win.
Togakure
03-02-2004, 15:40
I ran into a player online in the Shogun foyer a while back that preferred playing multiplayer games with fatigue, morale and limited ammo off. I must admit I was quite surprised when he said he felt it made the game more realistic. The reasons he gave are the same as in the initiating post of this thread, so perhaps this is the same person (Ganagacha?).
In the thread so far most seem to have written their opinions about the topic from the point of a single player game. How do you all feel about fatigue, morale, and limited ammo in online games?
I personally require realism, and I think a big part of the challenge in this game is working within the limitations created by fatigue, morale, and limited ammo. I would not choose to play in games that had these realism features turned off.
I leave them on all the time in single player games as well; the only option I turn off is the timer.
The only time I turn off fatigue and morale is when I'm conducting specific tests, comparing units' basic combat capabilities against each other. Even in this case I usually do two sets of tests--one with them on and one with them off. A heavily armored unit will fatigue faster, and fight less efficiently over time in a real battle, so to compare them in a series aof tests without including a set with fatigue would yield unrealistic overall results.
So what about online play folks: on or off?
Well of course people can play the game like they want but if you want realism then fatigue/morale off is not it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Its an essential part of the battle engine and turning it off will IMO make things a bit boring. There is a reason for units to run and part of the game is to use proper formations and the right units for a certain job.
I have only seen very few people online that hosts games with morale/fatigue turned off.
CBR
morale and fatigue on are the only way i ever played... maybe it would be funny to play without it, for a total carnage battles that last hours, but this thought never thrilled me all that much... i strive for a maximum of accuracy and realism...
I have tried an online morale off game once. It was definitely something different but it was silly really...only the lowest morale units could be routed after taking huge losses. The rest would basically fight to the death IIRC.
CBR
Sociopsychoactive
03-02-2004, 21:05
Moral is an integral part of the game, for instance I fought a very difficult battle where around 250 of my troops were defending a bridge against 1500~ enemy troops, headed by their king. If we hadn't killed the king and therefore routed half his army in one fell swoop then we never would have inflicted over a thousand casualties, and walked away with over 100 troops when our moral finally caved.
Fatigue is also integral, using the same example my troops where absoluely nackered by the time the third wave arrived, and if troops never got tired the desert factions would lose a serious advantage, as would the factions employing lighter, speedier skirmishers lots of the time. Half the point of those units is to demoralise and tire out the opposition without taking to many losses yurself, meaning your charge is far more effective when you finally do it.
With these options off it;s just a 'build build build' game, whoever has the most troops wins the day. With them on you can beat 2000 men with lesss than 500, if deployed properly and used tactically.
If you seem to be having problems with moral, then try not being expantionist untill you hit huigh era at least, and can have better units making up the core of your armies. Peasents, urban militia, spearmen and archers will all run away very easily, but chivilric MAA, fuedal sergents, high royal kniights and arbalesters are all alot harder to frighten.
Citaat[/b] (CBR @ Mar. 02 2004,14:29)]Well of course people can play the game like they want but if you want realism then fatigue/morale off is not it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Its an essential part of the battle engine and turning it off will IMO make things a bit boring. There is a reason for units to run and part of the game is to use proper formations and the right units for a certain job.
I have only seen very few people online that hosts games with morale/fatigue turned off.
CBR
Indeed, if you turn off morale (you can really turn off morale? Can't actually remember this option to also exist) then MTW/STW will be just another strategy game.
Morale, fatique and limited ammo on really enhances the gameplay signicantly in my opinion. It's what makes this game unique combined with the strategy map and large realtime battles. Yes there are also games like Close Combat, but far less number of units/men and campaign control (read: building troops etc). I have heard of Combat Missions to be some sort of Close Combat but turnbased and 3D, but have no idea about the number of units which are deployed. Sorry for going a bit offtopic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Anyways I myself will (most likely, at least prefered) always play the TW games with the realism options turned on.
Battles are POINTLESS if you make them with any/all of the following: unlimited ammo, limitless moral, and unlimited freshness.
Why play???
It is fun to have these constraints, and to use them in designing an army. It is also vital for any good strategy.
Anyone who just wants soldiers hacking away, whose only real risk is that they die, then tell them to go back to Nintendo games.
Yes its under Options/Game. Actually morale is not turned off completely as its only a morale bonus of +12. But the effect is that most units can take a lot of morale penalties and fight to the death.
CBR
AqConsul
03-02-2004, 23:28
Humm...I usually just leave everything on Default...that sounds quite fun tho...
realism is what makes the game fun and thus I leave all the realism settings on.
with morale off, peasants would e most cost effective units ever or maybe slav warriors and spears.
with fatigue off, heavily armoured tin cans are invincible and the taking of holy lands a piece of cake for the catholics.
with limited ammo off, I would not have to even break a sweat at the horde blasting through my defenses when my pavise arbs somehow almost simultaneously run out of ammo during a MHC charge and I have to retreat their useless and slow @sses all the way back to the edge of the map.:wall:
realism is what makes the game fun. do you really expect rational troops to fight to the death? chivalrous knights maybe, but the rest, nah. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Hmm,
Food for thought.
I thought I read a while ago on this forum (I could be badly mistaken) that the ai didn't suffer from fatigue as it was too hard to model the ai to fight with fatigue on. This was after some discussion of whether it was there or not, and resolved by someone who knew the games mechanics well. They said it wasn't modelled as it was too hard to model, but the recommendation was to keep it turned on as it made the game harder and people were smarter than computers so it just evened things out. Perhaps a more knowledgeable player could clarify? That is the sole reason I don't use fatigue... maybe I will rethink.
As for morale, when i used to play with morale on, from memory, my peasants etc would flee when there were still 80 or so left. I though this a little ridiculous (I know, they're uncouth. untrained middle ages folk, but still...). My units do still flee when there is no morale turned on, its just that they usually flee when they are at 20% strength or so, not 80%. Is fleeing at 20 killed a common experience or is my memory bad?
I might try the game with these on as it is easy, though I am only playing at regu;ar difficulty. In most games I go for full realism and I have always played with limited ammo (though I am sorely tempted to double their capacity, but that won't happen).
I'm still a newbie as I haven't played the game much in the 8 mths I've had it (strategy game wouldn't work on my old computer),too little time, and I never had Shogun.
motorhead
03-03-2004, 04:27
Quote[/b] ]the ai didn't suffer from fatigue as it was too hard to model the ai to fight with fatigue on
- never heard that on these boards. perhaps you've confused the discussion with another game?
- Checked a desert replay and the AI's units suffered from fatigue as the battle wore on, just as my troops did
Quote[/b] ] Is fleeing at 20 killed [peasants] a common experience or is my memory bad?
- peasants are the weakest unit in the game, i think it's very realistic that they flee like peasants when they realize their sticks and pitchforks aren't gonna win the day against men with spears and swords
- the game provides many mechanisms for improving unit morale thru religious buildings, positioning (protected flanks boosts morale), and the effects of a good general.
Quote[/b] (qtv @ Mar. 03 2004,03:42)]Is fleeing at 20 killed a common experience or is my memory bad?
A unit recieves morale penalties because of losses. Here is a list of most of the morale modifiers:
***MORALE***
States
Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6
Negative
Loose Formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: -4 (see below)
Outnumbered 3 to 1: -12 (depends on quality of troop, elite only afraid of elite, etc.)
One flank threatened: -2
Two flanks threatened: -6
Charged in flank: -4
Charged in flank by cavalry: -6
Charged by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (during the first few seconds): -8
After the General's death: -2 (for the rest of the battle)
Routing Friends: Up to -12
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking missle fire: -2 (-4 if weapons cause fear)
Unit is Very Tired: -3
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is completely exhausted: -8
Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)
Positive
Protected Flanks: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Enemies Routing: Up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
Winning: Up to +6
Impetuous Charge: +4 (when Knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4
General in unit: +2
Close proximity to general: +1 morale per star
Far away from general: +1 morale per 2 stars
-------
Peasants has very low morale and poor combat stats too so dont expect anything from them. A unit also get a morale penalty depending on how many men are killed(% of unit size) in a combat cycle (2? seconds) So the worse stats it has the faster its getting killed and therefore bigger penalty.
CBR
fruitfly
03-03-2004, 13:27
Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Mar. 03 2004,03:27)]
Quote[/b] ]the ai didn't suffer from fatigue as it was too hard to model the ai to fight with fatigue on
- never heard that on these boards. perhaps you've confused the discussion with another game?
- Checked a desert replay and the AI's units suffered from fatigue as the battle wore on, just as my troops did
Agreed, the AI definitely feels the effects of fatigue.
The combat penalties caused by fatigue are massive too. It's amazing how quickly an armoured unit like Byz Inf or Kataphractoi will die in melee after spending half the battle chasing horse archers around and getting totally exhausted in the process.
Sociopsychoactive
03-03-2004, 14:34
Peasants are the single most useless unit in the game. They are utterly crap; they should be at home tending the fields rather than trying (and failing) to fight. Their morale is horrible, their attack awful, their defence non-existent. The only use for peasants is acting as a junk unit to absorb missiles that might damage more expensive units. Peasants are also used for pinning a unit while you carry out a flank attack or use destructive missiles (for example naptha) on the pinned unit. However they are not very good at this, as they tend to break and run away before you can finish your attack. If you want a junk unit to use while pinning a target use the plain, simple spearmen. For a more constructive, and suitable, use for your peasants you should use them as garrison units in your campaign map provinces. Peasants are cheap to maintain and fill the 100 man minimum quote well. They are just as effective at maintaining a provinces loyalty as the more expensive units.
That is straight from froggy's unit guide, and as I'm sure we all agree it's very accurate. peasents, being the worst unit in the entire game, will run at twenty men dead lots of the time, they start with a minus morale and as soon as one of them dies they tend to go down to uncertain, one volley of arrows along with another man dying is often enough to rout them under a medium general.
If you do a custom battle and try out some of the better units (gothics, chvilrics) then you will see they run away when at least half the unit is dead and their flanks are attacked and not before. Play into the game a bit.
Quote[/b] (Sociopsychoactive @ Mar. 03 2004,07:34)]Peasants are the single most useless unit in the game. They are utterly crap; they should be at home tending the fields rather than trying (and failing) to fight. Their morale is horrible, their attack awful, their defence non-existent. The only use for peasants is acting as a junk unit to absorb missiles that might damage more expensive units. Peasants are also used for pinning a unit while you carry out a flank attack or use destructive missiles (for example naptha) on the pinned unit. However they are not very good at this, as they tend to break and run away before you can finish your attack. If you want a junk unit to use while pinning a target use the plain, simple spearmen. For a more constructive, and suitable, use for your peasants you should use them as garrison units in your campaign map provinces. Peasants are cheap to maintain and fill the 100 man minimum quote well. They are just as effective at maintaining a provinces loyalty as the more expensive units.
That is straight from froggy's unit guide, and as I'm sure we all agree it's very accurate. peasents, being the worst unit in the entire game, will run at twenty men dead lots of the time, they start with a minus morale and as soon as one of them dies they tend to go down to uncertain, one volley of arrows along with another man dying is often enough to rout them under a medium general.
If you do a custom battle and try out some of the better units (gothics, chvilrics) then you will see they run away when at least half the unit is dead and their flanks are attacked and not before. Play into the game a bit.
So would I be better using hobilars than royal/ chivalric knights/templars against the Turkish in turkey/greece and below (I'm english)?
in turkey and greece, it's not desert so your CKs, templars, and RKs will not suffer from their armor.
Thus, use them against the turks. Don't use hobilars. Use Mouted Seargents instead. they are better in every way. If you are fighting the turks, you should definitely have enough infrastructure to produce MS.
hobilars don't fill the same role as the knights. hobilars are lgiht cav. use them to chase down routers and kill archers instead of really charging for shock which is knight duty.
in pure melee power, use the knights as your hobilars don't have staying power or too much shock value.
in terms of light cav, hoilars have more stamina and don't tire as easily but use MS.
for normal game play unless you face lots of HA, pick the knights. if you need light cav, choose MS or better yet pick jinettes or steppe cav provided you can get them.
Quote[/b] (CBR @ Mar. 03 2004,06:15)]Negative
Outnumbered 2 to 1: -4 (see below)
Outnumbered 3 to 1: -12 (depends on quality of troop, elite only afraid of elite, etc.)
Is the outnumbered ratio calculated inclusive reserves or is it only based on the number men on the field at any time?
I think only for units on the battlefield. My 2 cents
Its a bit tricky and we dont know all the details..
The calculation is based on all units within a certain area of a unit so no reserves. Cant remember the exact range but its less than a bowshot...maybe 3600(1.8 tiles)Yuuki knows it.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Its based both on numbers and stats. So an elite unit need to face many enemy low quality troops to start getting penalties.
As I understand it its constantly calculated for each unit. Enemy and friendly units within that range is added to the big secret formula. You can say that each unit gives a certain morale power based on amount of men and stats The morale power for the unit that its being calculated for is doubled (basically meaning that it will take some enemy numbers before the effect starts)
Hm I hope it can be understood (and that Im not that way off heh)
But for the gamer its pretty simple really. Numbers and quality matters. Your own units need morale support by having friendly units near by. And single units can rout a lot easier if too close to a group of enemy units.
Worried about enemy numbers is what you will see if a unit starts getting penalties.
CBR
Seven.the.Hun
03-04-2004, 13:55
fatigue, moral, and limited ammo are essential indeed...although i am split between time limits and camera limits, i sometimes use those, sometimes not, doesnt matter all that much
From the Official Strategy Guide:
Units suffer a -4 morale penalty when outnumbered 2 to 1. This penalty can be as large as -12 when outnumbered 10 to 1. This particular factor takes into account the quality and speed of the enemy, too. So, in essence, morale sufferes when the unit is outnumbered or outclassed.
A 3 to 1 advantage in numbers over nearby enemy forces gives any of your forces in the area a +4 morale boost.
In STW this effect was present in a simpler form, and it's range was definitely 1.8 tiles (3600 range) as measured in tests by me. The morale support distance was also approximately 1.8 tiles. These ranges appear to be the same in MTW/VI. I called it the proximity effect in STW, but it's referred to as the outnumbered penalty in MTW/VI. In STW, the number of men in the unit and the unit type didn't matter, but it appears that it does in MTW. I haven't run any tests to get better quantification of the effect. All the friendly and enemy units within a circle of 1.8 tiles radius are used to calculate the morale effect on a particular unit.
When playing the game it's important to keep low and moderate morale units together. You also want your best units up front with the weaker units providing morale support from behind once the hand-to-hand fighting starts.
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