Faction imbalance

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Hello,

I've observed that some factions "unnaturally" dominate the map quickly (in a century or so) while others get wiped off with the same hurry. My observations count for the last four campaigns I've played in early/easy.


Spain
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Eliminates Almohads in no time, takes the holy land, kills Egypt and whatever remaining until I crash her to pieces. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif In three out of four games, they also dominated a reasonable part of Europe.

Turks
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The devs might have intended to take revenge from real history In three out of four campaigns, they were eliminated in less than a century or a bit later. In the fourth, they have been stuck in a single landlocked province after a few decades of good trial against the Byz.

England and France
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One or the other eliminates the other, expands crazily and collapses. 3/4 again... In my recent campaign, however, they've been exchanging a couple provinces not much expanding out of their historical locations.

Aragon
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Disappears in no time. Rule without exception.

Almohads
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No chance to survive before Spain. In my recent game they attempted a successful yet short lived respawn and even took back southern parts of the Iberian peninsula --until a couple turns later.

***

I'm sure you wise elders already discussed these thoroughly in the past years but I just wished to share my observations.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
_

[Si GeeNa]

Well, the Iberian Peninsula is a vertiable cauldron... It is not necessarily a "given" that the Spanish trumps the Elmos. In my Early games, the Elmos tend to knock out the Spanish within the first 10 turns and then the rest of Europe.

Perhaps it has to do with the Level of Difficulty?

Look at the Map. We can surely do more work with the Iberian Penisula... It took centuries for the Spanish to knock the Moors to North Africa, not 10 turns... Cordoba is at least worth 50 turns of good fighting...

Anyway, whoever rules the Iberia, rules both the Med and the Atlantic North Sea...

[Knight_Yellow]

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ Mar. 03 2004,01:34)]Aragon
------
Disappears in no time. Rule without exception.
In my latest game i started High expert.

i chose the hungarians (wanted to be cathloic and close to constantinople, wich is now earning me 3500 florins a turn)

ive got all of my original territory and took everything south of me until i hit the sea.

ive got a large force in constant holding off massive Turk attacks every 3-4 turns.

and ive invaded part of the mongol hordes and cripled their economy (cut them off from asia and forced them into the last few russian provinces) ive got thousands and thousands of troops and 200K in the bank.


My point?

im allied with Aragon and they have an even bigger army, Ive yet to see them but i keep getting asked to decide who to ally with...

so far ive lost all contact with england france alhomads spain and the egyptians.

They must be fooking huge.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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It must have to do with the dificulty guys. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I've always played easy. Will switch to normal the next campaign and see how things will change in the normal campaigns.

Thanks for replying.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


***
Btw, I agree that the province divisions and factions are too approximate. We're in the age of feudality, in which barons are the rulers and most kings aren't but figureheads, or just plain barons with fatter titles.

Where's Normandy and Anjou? The French king could hardly ever trespass their borders. Same for Bretagne, Flandres and many others.

There was practically no "Spain" until Ferdinando wed Isabel, which happened in the "late" era. There were Aragon, Castille, Leon, Navarra, Portugal (first county, then kingdom), Catalunya and probably others.

Muslim Spain consisted of sovereign kingdoms. They became vassals of Moors in a certain period but not ever. Kurtuba (Cordoba) survived until post medieval times.

Where's Scotland? Wales wasn't an English principality until Edward I counquered it.

Ireland a single, intact province? No sir, not before the English conquest.

There was no state in the world named Italy until the second half of the 19th century. We have the Genoese and the Sicilians; but where are the Venetians, who were one of the mightiest naval/trader state ever lived? Kingdom of Napoli, Grandduchy of Toscana...

Novgorod is there, OK. But what about Kiev, Vladimir? Lithuania was at least as important and powerful as Poland.

Serbia was a major power in the Balkans until the 15th century. So was Bulgaria, though intermittently... Hungary had to struggle with Wallachia and Moldavia.

Bohemia was an independent kingdom.

Even in the 19th century, there were about 2,000 (two thousand) sovereign states in Germany. Many were independent cities that can't be represented as provinces, OK. However, there could be at least twice the recent number of German provinces.

Provincial divisions and names for the eastern factions (Turks, Romans [Byz.], Egyptians) are ridiculous.

There are two Armenias but no Armenians. More than one Armenian kingdom were active in the 11th century. So was Georgia.

You can fight as Salahaddin (in historical campaign) but his state (Eyyubid Sultanate) is absent. He was neither Turk, nor Egyptian...

Sorry for the long post, even off the topic I started myself. It's not a rant, I love this game But I can't help seeing how much better it could and should have been.

Again, I'm sure that all of these were discussed before. However, reading through the archive of this forum requires a spare life.

Cheers

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
_

[discovery1]

Maybe you would be interested in this (http://wes.apolyton.net/). One of the best mods available. And v4 will have a new map:

http://wes.apolyton.net/LukMap.gif

I can't wait.

Edit: on the making of v4 Thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=15349;st=0)

[motorhead]

@Mouzafphaerre: welcome to the Org, but you've got me a bit confused:
- so, what is your point? first you complain about faction imbalance - would you prefer identical, generic provinces and factions? Imbalances would disappear.
- then you crack open a history book and bring up a load of inaccuracies (which will vary wildly, depending upon which maps and whose history you choose to believe). Which, if implemented, would lead to more "imbalanced" factions, not to mention degraded gameplay - the game is long enough with 98 provs, how many people want to play with 500 provs? This is a game, not a historical simulation.

So do you want faction balance (which would force more inaccuracies into the game) or more accuracy (which would render the game even less balanced)???

[RZST]

once i get a better computer i will mod the strategy map to have TONS of areas. if you have played Hearts of Iron or VICTORIA then it will be similar.

the reason i think that AI's tend to dominate maps is that the "Provinces" itself are quite um big(?) theyre not all that detailed. maybe if europe were much bigger then it would be better.

the medmod map looks promising though if it were up to me i would divide it into smaller provinces.

[mercian billman]

Aragon is much larger at the begining of the High era because they start out with Sicily. In Early Aragon will usually fall either to the French, English, or Spanish within 50 years.

Spain or the Almohads both start about equal. The two countries will go to war, the determing factors are
1. Aragoneese Alliance
2. Rebel Provinces
3. France and England
4. Egypt

If the Almos ally with the Aragoneese Spain must be able to be able to defend their northern borders delaying the time they can attack the Almos.

The rebel Iberian provinces are a pain to hold whichever side holds Portugal will do so at great expense. If Spain places 300 troops in Portugal they weaken they're Leon, Castile, and Valencian (they usually take Valencia) garrisons. If the Almos take Portugal they weaken they're Cordoban garrison by at least 300 men. 300 men is alot during the early part of the game.

Usually the two will go to war in a fight that will last roughly 10-20 (once they were at war for 150, the English King was trapped in Scotland with 1500 men) years. The winner will be weakened but, in a powerful position allowing them to attack Iberia. If Spain, and the Almos aren't at war this won't happen but, the winner of the French Vs English conflict will probably be excommunicated so attacking a spain at war with the Almos can give the Almos that winning edge. Also If the Almos conquer Spain before the French, and English go to war they will be able to wait for the inevitable conflict, and pickup the peices.

Egypt is not a huge factor (they're mixed up with the Turks, and Byzantines) in the outcome but, there was a time when I played the Almohads, and they invaded Cyrencia (with 2 full stacks against 80 Saharan cavalry, and some peasents) after Spain invaded (and failed) Cordoba.

Sorry for the long post I hope I helped to explain the Iberian situation.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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The map looks promising, discovery. I know a little about the WesMod since everybody is talking about it. I'll probably try it sometime later.

Motorhead,

Thanks. Sorry for the confusion but I wasn't complaining in my opening post. The overgrown Spain struck me (identical in all four campaigns) and I just wanted to share my mere observation, with the hope of learning its probable reasons if any. In that aspect, I don't *want* anything. The game has to run one way or another. I was just curious about the few same factions dominating the map early all the time. That's all.

About the second part of my post...

Let me quote myself:


Quote[/b] ]Sorry for the long post, even off the topic I started myself. It's not a rant, I love this game But I can't help seeing how much better it could and should have been.

Again, I'm sure that all of these were discussed before. However, reading through the archive of this forum requires a spare life.

So, what part of that is unintelligible?

It was "triggered" by the reply of Si GeeNa. It's "off-topic", which is already admitted.

I don't open history books on posting at gaming forums unless it's really necessary. I wrote from memory. If there are any mistakes (probably there are), anybody with the information will correct me and have my gratitude (preferably in private not to occupy others).

I see posts on both forums every day or two, complaining about the easiness of the game (against the computer), wanting it to last longer etc. More provinces and more factions to challenge would possibly work for that. Of course, YMMV. Personally, I believe that more variety/detail improves all games, whatever the genre or theme, and increases replayability.

Again, as I wrote, I still like the game as it is. That's why I've been playing it for two years. It's a game, a good one. [My ideas on reality/accuracy in games is out of place in his discussion. Just this bit: I'm not obbsessed with realisme and generally dislike simulations.]

Respectfully...
_

[Rowan11088]

I think the plain and simple reason Spanish often beat Almo's is Spanish Jinettes. All other things being equal, Almos have units like AUM, nubians, ghazi, muwahid, various light cav, while Spanish have militia sergeants, feudals, feudal knights, mounted crossbows. That's a pretty even match up if you ask me, AUM aren't THAT strong, esp. when compared to militia sergeants and feudals. Spanish Jinettes are the trump card; the AI actually knows exactly how to use them (unless it's up against major, major archer power, which AI rarely uses). SJ can use javs against more armored AUM and cav, and once it's weakened an enemy can effectivelly skirmish and rout them, all under AI direction. For some reason SJ seem to be excellent under the AI's direction (relative to AI in general), and can help to take out Almo's.

[Nowake]

I agree with the Almohads being wiped out every time. I haven't seen them once win.

[Kaboom]

I think Ai vs AI is auto calculate. And someone said cavalry has advantage in autocalculate.

the plain and simple reason may be Spanish has more cavalry

[Eastside Character]

Imbalance is sometimes annoying, but in my last campaign, the English and French hadnt even start a war between themselves (after some 60 years of early era), not speaking about eliminating one by another.

Its generally good that this game has all those week points I think. Its just a lot of fun to change things to your liking, and not everyone is really so much concerned about the Turks getting their ass kicked again, or about the HRE collapsing after the first 30 years of a campaign.

Regards,
EC

[katank]

rowan's right about jinettes. they are almost a perfect counter to the AUMs, being able to outrun them and have armour piercing.

I don't agree with the idea that feudals can beat AUMs though. Not only do they have higher tech reqs, they also get mauled. FMAA doesn't trump AUM at all. CMAA are about equal to AUMs.

Kaboom is right though about the autocalc as then that doesn't take into account fatigue and the desert troops of the almos can't really shine.

[NewJeffCT]

well, if you search on some of my posts in the past few months, you'll know I'm currently dealing with a rather large Aragonese empire in my early campaign as the Danes - they currently control most of the Iberian peninsula, save Leon, which I snagged when Spain collapsed. They also control Morocco. And, they also have Toulouse, Aquitine, Anjou, Brittany, Normandy and one or two others near there. They even briefly held Constantinople via crusade.
They have several citadels and have even produced Chivalric Knights in Toulouse (ouch)

And, I have played a good 25 SP campaigns now, all starting in Early. The biggest threat to my end-game dominance in all of those campaigns was due to a HUGE Almohad empire that covered all over Western Europe, northern Africa & the Middle East & Asia Minor. Heck, they even rolled over the pope and controlled that whole peninsula for over a century.

But, the only time I've seen the Turks emerge as a threat has been when they re-spawned in the High era with a boatload of Janissary Heavy Infantry. And, the Danes rarely even invade resource-rich Sweden in my games...

Heck, I've had the Hungarians as a major factor several times, but not really the Turks or Danes.

[econ21]

I largely agree with the observations of the original poster. Spain is the power I worry most about in early on expert. They steamroller the Almos and race for the Holy Land - a big problem for my GA crusading goals. In the early days of MTW, the Almos seemed to have more chance but not after the patches. Not sure if it is jinettes - crusades also help. The Almos don't seem to capitalise on their AUM.

I've also noticed a tendency for France to regularly defeat England (not always, but usually) and become strong. The early isolation of the English territories in France are probably key here. HRE usually disappears - often following an excom.

Byzantium often disappears into exile in the steppes and oblivion, as Turkey takes Asia Minor and Constantinople. Like the Almos, Byzantium also doesn't seem to make the best use of their incredible early units.

I would prefer it if the struggle in Spain was more even and if the Byzantine AI recognised the over-riding importance of Constantinople, but things are still sufficiently varied that games seldom play out the same (my variable choice of faction helps here).

[Wishazu]

i allways play on expert and ive noticed that 9 times out of 10 the french will annihilate the english within 100 years and then dominate central and western europe untill a civil war or major rebbelion happens.

[Jammies]

I have played one game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, on early/normal, and Spain & the Almos reached an uneasy peace, with neither gaining the upper hand.

Of all factions, the ultimate baddie ended up being the Sicilians, which swept through Italy, the Med islands, and the Balkans. Before being crushed by me, that is. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Senta]

it's funny how it turns out sometimes... in my current campaign, i own most of the world with Polish, everything by north of Spain, Italy, France and British Isles... there's HRE that's been sitting in Ireland for over 100 years, Hungary took over south of Italy, Egyptians battle with French and English over north of France, and there are Danes in Scotland... soon all will be Polish anyways, no more imbalances http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Rowan11088]

In response to an earlier post, FMAA are an exact match for AUM. Their stats (if you add shield bonus) are identical, the only difference being that FMAA get killed faster if attacked from the rear. AUM, of course, do get a valor bonus in Granada I believe it is, which is a huge advantage when you're playing Almo's, though I doubt AI is smart enough to abuse it. In, say, a MP game AUM are in fact worse than FMAA because they cost slightly more. In general, the game does not charge enough for shields; a unit with a Large Shield bonus will tend to give you more bang for your buck than other units, because by the time you get rear-attacked that unit's already kinda screwed... Also, Feudals are Elite, which helps a bit in any low morale battle. FMAA are really a great unit, close in money value to Byz Inf.

[katank]

the AI does seem to build units in provinces in which it gets valour bonuses for and then tries to build towards the master level of that unit to get +2.

this always seems to happen with the almos in cyrenacia, building a master horse for +2 saharan cav which are still fairly crappy.

the problem is that the AI normally doesn't get time to abuse AUMs as they cannot get to a keep and town guard in granada in reasonable time before being overrun by loads of jinettes.
perhaps this has to do with building priorities.

anyone knwo how to change priorities to higher for AUM and byz inf so they capitalize on these units?

[Ironside]

In my last campaign as the Russians there were alot of changes of great kingdoms.
At first it was the Italians, that got gang-banged and was wiped out without interference by me. Then it was the Danes, who sent huge stacks and took over most of Spain after owning Scandinavia and most of England. They attacked me in Tunisia and lost Scandinavia to me and England rebelled. Then the Sicilians got really big, but got wiped out somehow (I don't remember exactly how).
Then did the Egyptians got big, owning all the land between Egypt and Hungary. After some harassing by me the Egyptians and the Aragonese got into war with each other. The Aragonese had slowly grown during the campaign and owned at this point all of Spain, France, southern England, most of Germany and Nicea. Unfortunately they lost a crusade to Constantinople (they took the province at the same turn it vanished, but the castle was still standing) and got a civil war. And then they declared war with me...

And I've seen the Spanish and Almohads being at peace with each other throughout an entire campaign. The only change was that after a civil war in Spain, the Almohad took Castille. It was very weird http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

And the Byzantines has often been great powers in campaigns starting in early

[Nowake]

The french always seem to have a hrad time at first, after that they just whipe out the english and half of the german teritory.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (discovery1 @ Mar. 02 2004,21:28)]Maybe you would be interested in this (http://wes.apolyton.net/). One of the best mods available. And v4 will have a new map:

http://wes.apolyton.net/LukMap.gif

I can't wait.

Edit: on the making of v4 Thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=15349;st=0)
Me neither, and it will contain 32 factions.

[andrewt]

Turkish and Egyptians both have aggressive AI so there's usually a battle there. In all my games that I remembered, there's a big battle there quite early with either the Byzantine or the Egyptians winning and growing really powerful.

France is also aggressive and gets into battles early. They almost always win against either the English and HRE. One game, they went to war with both at the same time and won.

Spanish and Almohad don't go to war as early. A lot of times, they still haven't gone to war when I attacked one of them. They usually just build troops. Almohad used to win but Spanish seems to be winning more right now. Part of the reason is they seem more aggressive in grabbing the rebel provinces and get stronger because of that. Aragon doesn't seem to fight that much lately.

[Brutal DLX]

I don't know if they changed AI routines or faction behaviour in the prior patches, but in earlier version we saw the Almohads win much more often, only that back then, their main push then went into Europe, which was always a big concern when playing a Catholic faction.
Now, it's still lopsided, but Spain is winning most of the times, sometimes they get backstabbed by the Aragonese though.
As to why that is, part of it clearly is the autocalc assessment and the decision of the AI faction to withdraw if they think they can't win. Now, this may be a smart move, but only when followed by a counter offensive sooner rather than later. But absurdly, this goes on until the withdrawing faction lies trapped in one or two provinces, with the bulk of their forces, and waiting to either get eradicated or being seriously crippled by negative income. There should be a point where you have to stand and fight, and clearly, this is missing in the AI routines. If it were implemented, it would also provide the human player with much more of a challenge, as easy rushes wouldn't work that well anymore, unless you are really using a far superior army.
Well, I suppose Rome will be better in that regard as well.

As for the boredom and easiness of the games, I recommend all to play GA games at higher difficulty levels instead of total domination ones, it's more of a challenge to dominate with a small realm and a good army rather than to hold most of the provinces.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Hello folks,

I started (and am about to finish) my first GA campaign. I don't think I'll ever play total dom on the whole map again. If only minor factions could GA too...

Anyway; it's turning out to be a rule without exception in my games that Spain dominates half of the world in no time. But it's the weakest when it's the largest; launch a successful seaborn invasion to non-bordering provinces or two, and an instant civil war will do the rest.

Autocalc/autoretreat habit of the AI is a shame indeed. Almost every resistance causes casualties of favourable amount on the enemy and the aggressive attacker melts down after a while unless it can resupply continuously. It would indeed increase the challange.
_

[Australianus]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-argue.gif
i've got one going now as the Italians. The Aragonese still control Aragon & Navarre as they have foe two hundred years. Spain which foolishly sank one of my ships is now being gutted by England.
The AI can be a pain but we must all consider the small things.
Maybe I should have supported a crusade early.
The AI seems to me to be reasonably fair, in retrospect.

I am threatened by a resurgent Pope because he gave me the irrits and I had to take him out early.
The Golden Horde have reached well into Europe.
I have expanded into Constantinople and the Balkans.
I am in with a real chance at the high level.

Makes the game interesting as well as frustrating.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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We had discussed a probable connection with difficulty in this thread. Well, I've been playing Turks/early/GA on normal and here is the result:

http://www.thelib.com/gallery/albums/userpics/almo_elim.jpg

Please notice the year it happens.

I think I'll end up strengthening the Almos and degrading the Spanish a little, before starting my next campaign. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif
_

[katank]

I too notice the almos lose frequently.

Also, they seem extremely prone to rebellions/civil wars. Most of the time, I find half of north africa bursting into open rebellion and can bribe into it.

After VI, bribring hotspots after southern steppes and scandanavia would have to be almo territories.

the fact that my sicilians can take tunisia and cyrenacia again and again without once breaking alliance with them and in time for first homeland GA count that includes Tunisia is just wrong.

Also, the Egyptians seem more aggressive towards the almos as well now in VI.

[mercian billman]

In my current medmod campaign with the English the Almohads have pretty much kicked the Spanish off the Iberian Peninsula. The Spanish Kings got adventuress and sent large armies to conquer Provene, Burgundy, Lorraine, and Swabia. In all they probably sent about 6000 men or so. While they were conquering Central Europe their homelands have been over run. One nice thing was the large numbers of Spanish troops have really helped my crusades. They had 5 full stacks in Burgundy and they had 3 left after my crusade went through http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Zhuge_Liang]

when I play, i usually see how aragon takes toulouse from french, and even this, french defeats english and aragonese later, then he heads for german and usually for Spain, but Spain uses to have all spain and all turkish empire, so they struggle hard but after about 100 years, french begin taking spain and spanish ends with just turkish empire, french seems to cannot defeat them no more

i have seen how sicilians grown over a giant turkish or rusian empire who owns all the west, when the map is divided on 2 empires, and fighting both powers they took lots of lands until the map is divided on 3, spain, russian and sicilians (i didnt expect that)

i have seen how egiptians defeats turkians, then, with no battle againist another factions, turkians reappears and with no troops ends with egiptian defeat and turkish rule

[yonderboy]

See, I've seen quite a bit of difference. USUALLY, but not always, Aragon will not expand much. I rarely see them completely wiped out early on. I have, however, seen them run over the Spanish. Usually... it's the Turks or Egyptians in the SE, the HRE, French, or English in NW, Almohads or Spanish in the NW, and anyone's game in the Russian steppes and Eastern Europe. That's how most of my games turn out. One big thing about Iberia, though, is that it very rarely seems to end up as a stalemate. Either Spain wipes out the Almohads or the other way around. Then... there's always Portugal...

[Tricky Lady]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 17 2004,03:43)]I too notice the almos lose frequently.

Also, they seem extremely prone to rebellions/civil wars. Most of the time, I find half of north africa bursting into open rebellion.
I've never seen the Spanish lose from the Almohads. Spain always triumphs before the clock hits 1200.

Also the French are always superior to the English. I've never ever seen the English grow into a superpower (not even into a medium power).

May have something to do with the level of difficulty you play on though. I usually only play on "normal".

[katank]

I think all difficulty levels.

I play on hard/expert

I regularly see the almos as 1 continuous orange mass one turn, and two thirds of that turn rebel grey

I send my emissaries there pronto to get some gold mines peacefully.

as Sicilians, I can fulfill my Tunisian homeland stuff by bribing them and keep the almos as trading partners regularly

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Playing GA, seeing a Spanish army draw the Byzes off Khazar sucks even more. I think it has to do with faction behaviour descriptions such as "Catholic expansionist" etc. I think I'll end up making all of them stagnant or something like that.
_