The Italians

[Tankred]

Those Italians are damn good Why?

1. At start, they have men with some good vices and virtues - especially acumen.
2. They have couple of ships while starting.
3. Theh have Venice the Milk Cow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
4. All three above make Italians extremely suitable for trading, diplomacy and, generally, for peace-policy.
5. They got iron in Tuscany.
6. And mines on islands.
7. They got Italian Infantry - one of the best light infantry. This unit won't become obsolete until long time.
8. Later, they have Gothic units.

[Dead Moroz]

I know it all.

Wellcome to Guild, Tankred http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Eastside Character]

Witaj w Gildii Tankred http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


Regards,
EC

[katank]

you pretty much covered it but don't forget genovese sailors who are better than vanilla archers and have lower upkeep.

also, you get tankerville at the start who is a fairly good general. You also have bonused UM for battles in the desert.

it's funny how they call it italian light infantry, they are quite heavily armoured and indeed a very good unit in early who are even better than chiv sgt. which you usually don't get until high. I would really want to see their idea of italian heavy infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Mysterium]

Strategically great, too. With that navy built up for trading, you can launch Crusades everywhere, building up an empire while fighting against people who can't touch your homeland. Then when the Western European powers start fighting, snap up the weak/rebel provinces.

[Kulgan]

I find myself disbanding the 2 islands, or at least the least productive one ( Corsica? )
You hardly make profits out of them and they rebell quite often, enemies often pick on them as you keep low defences, getting all your nation into war.
Italy is great, and even greater when you get rid of those 2 islands :)

In SP your Italian infantry will rule in the beginning, later they still do well against Cav and in the desert ( don't upgrade the armour for the desert army )

And you forgat you're one of the 2 nations who can build the galleys, although Spain and France should be able to build them too, historically.

[katank]

kulgan, the building galleys part is not true. You, the sicilians and the byz can all build galleys and have an identical naval tech tree.

the islands are in fact very valuable and I recommend against abandoning them. they can be devoted to producing ships and then agents as they are a great base that cannot be attacked unless others have naval superiority which clearly shouldn't happen since you should be the greatest trader/premier naval power in the world.

Also, they can lower your support costs for ships as the closer your ports are to the ships, the lower the support. For this reason, I grab as many islands as I can for naval bases.

Finally, the fact that the islands can't be readily assaulted means that you can keep an heir safe there etc. so no easy elimination.

[Fanty]

They are somehow TOO strong in the start.

Except for that they historically correct dont even extist at the start of the game but would be part of the HRE and emerge later like BUrgundians and Swiss do. BUt at aorund 1170.

Before that, both sides had been doing ok with that. The Italians loved the military protection by the Germans and the Germans the riches of Italy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif

Around 1170 SOME Italian Provences rebell against the HRE. Others remained loyal.

Frederick Barbarossa moved into Italy 7 times to smash down those rebellions. He was abolutely into knights /(he knighted 35.000 young men in a single giant ceremony, build up the largest chavalry force in Europe and build about 380 castles in his lifetime) and his faforite fairytale was the king Artus legend. He decalred chivalry to be the one and only true lifestyle.

6 times with success. The knights rode the Italian rebells into the dust. The rebells decalre to be loyal, just to rebell again several years later.

The 7th time was a giant shock. The Italians learned how to counter cavalry meanwhile.....

Some say, it was the first time in European history that an Infantry army was succesfull against a cavalry army.

Duke Henry the Lion refused his Emperor reinforcements (became banned for this betrayal later).
And a draw was made----> Italy formal remains part of the HRE, but doesnt has to pay taxes.

So, Italy is rich. Its the mainreason, besides the symbolic (after all the HRE claimed to be the official successor of Westrome as the Bycants were of Eastrome) to make it remain in the empire.

And it did the sensational miraclous victory of Infantry versus cavalry and dismantled the Myth of the invincible knight for the first time. (Swiss did also, later)

But correctly, the Italians wouldnt emerge as a independant faction until 1170, possibly not even before 1200 (as they remained formal part of the HRE until Barbarossas dead in 1190) wich would make them not beeing part of the early game.

[Seven.the.Hun]

never played as italians, but i have noticed that they are quite resourceful, i dont think they have been wiped out before until i wiped them out in all the campaigns i have seen

[Tankred]

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ Mar. 03 2004,10:06)]Witaj w Gildii Tankred http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


Regards,
EC
Witaj, chanie Nogajów..;)

[Gore]

Italians too strong in MTW? Try them in Med Mod -few kinds of kicky infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif which are mass producing.

[Nowake]

I can't stand playing as the italians; probably because they are so poorly featured when compared to real history. Venice controling Genoa? Damn.

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Nowake @ Mar. 05 2004,05:46)]I can't stand playing as the italians; probably because they are so poorly featured when compared to real history. Venice controling Genoa? Damn.
*Cough*

The HRE, the Spanish, the Almohads are also very accurate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I'm sure you can point out very inaccurate things about several other factions. Very decentralized factions aren't funny to play.

[mercian billman]

Don't forget about the good generals they get later on in the campaign.

[katank]

don't forget that they also get knights hospitaller which are by far the best knights you can get in early since they dismount into hospitaller foot which are absolute can openers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Fortebraccio]

I don't find Italians' starting position very favourable. Sicilians are eager to become undisputed masters of the italian peninsula and your short-term survival depends on wether they turn their attention toward the Papacy. More often than not, His secular-power-hungry Holiness will support those uneducated and warlike lot in the attempt to bring Northern Italy under His influence.
And even if this doesn't happen, the Pope will always be a thorn in your side, sooner or later he will become jealous of your wealth and bite the hand that served Holy Mother Church so devoutely for decades. The Holy Roman Emperor and the Hungarians pose a major threat as well, as soon as they feel confident enough, they will invade your lands, and again, do not expect any assistance from His Holiness.
Right now I'm playing a High Period GA game as the Doge (WesMod No Unit), and it is definitely the funniest campaign ever... Almohads, English HRE, Danes, Polish, Hungarians, Byzantines and Mongols co-existing as medium powers...infinitely more challenging than my previous game as a bloodthirsty Hungarian warlord.

[katank]

fortebraccio, taking out the sicilians should be a piece of cake. just rush them early.

the pope should be beat down. take rome and then beat him into a fort in papal states and siege him until he is almost dead when you pull out and you should be neutral with him. he should have only a few UMs left for company and pose no threat.

the HRE and Hungarians don't pose a threat. just fill up genoa, milan, and venice with loads of peasants and they should not get any ideas about encroaching on your lands.

medmod italians are pretty strong in getting great infantry including pavisiers and various contadina troops.

[Fortebraccio]

I had troubles as the Italians due to my rpg approach to the game: I don't wage war against other Catholic factions or against allies, I don't resort to peasant rabble, and keep a peaceful, trade-oriented approach. Right now, in A.D. 1270 I hold Venice, Milan, Genoa, Tuscany, Naples, Sicily, Sardina, Corsica, Malta, Cyprus, Provence, Serbia, Tripoli, Siria and Egypt; beside islands and Genoa every single province is a border. That's why I feel costantly threatened by my neighbours. :)

[Ambassador Sacrifice]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif I have won SP up to the hard level with Italians', I find them and a few others to ez like the Danish and English just dominate the trade routs. 1 hint is and the beginning make money thing like farmlands mines and trading post. when doing this build only boats lots of them. get trading. When the byes and Turks start fighting and byes move to protect there boarders drop a mass force on constenople and hold it for dear life. Them you can build all the early units you need there. After that just branch out like up in the Russian areas some there have good trade. Keep up building boats and have at least 2 boats in each waters as your alleys will soon be wanting what you have. with English just keep France happy build your money makers and send emissary out to the Danish area and by up rebels then build a big force to drop on Flanders, but only after you have lots of boats built. After that you rule the game in trade money and clansmen And longbows

[katank]

ambassador, with the english, an early rush certainly take out the french faster for me.

for the italians, I would say that while back stabbing the byz to grab all their islands as well since they are nice naval bases, can serve as launching points for future crusades to holy lands, and later becomes your homelands. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Ambassador Sacrifice]

Well thats all fine to but I like to keep Allies happy at first then wait for the pope to excommunicated them or ask for crusades against someone then I put the hurts to them that way I can out florin any enemy. That why the popes happy my lands stay happy. Less revolts. Im working on beeting turks now on hard. 3rd try. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

[Russian Threat]

You forgot #9 - They make a mean pot of gravy (aka spaghetti sauce).

Sorry...but I'm second generation Italian-American...couldn't resist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

[gaijinalways]

I like the Italians, as I just finished an early, expert general achievements campaign with a 60% victory Kinda strange, as I thought I would have to go to 1453 but I got the victory window after I went on a spy rampage.

Trade is important, especially in GA games. In that particular campaign, I sat back for over 200 years not attacking anyone, but I didn't roll up the kinda bank account I see some people bragging about. I had good units, though, and decent facilities. Later on as I rolled over the Spanish and the French, I was getting high tech awards though the BYZ sometimes stole some of my glory. MY only wars with them were naval battles.

Keeping those two islands is useful for ship building I found.

[Crash]

Well, I never have to backstab the Byz or anyone else, since they all backstab me eventually anyway. I'm a counter puncher - I expect the backstab, so I'm ready to deliver the knockout counter punch as soon as I'm attacked.

I like playing the Italians, but the Pope has attacked in every game, so I don't worry about being nice to my fellow Catholics. The only reliable ally that I have ever had are the Sicilians, but they are not usually of much help. I end up taking the lands that they lose to rebels or our mutual enemies.

You do have to have to be careful in the beginning, as the Italians are surrounded by enemies, including the Papacy, and don't have much room to maneuver. Taking advantage of Venice's wealth by setting up trade as soon as possible will help a lot.

Actually, I think the Papacy would be an interesting faction to play, but it would have a unique set of victory conditions.