View Full Version : 4 max units + 5 max hon
We all know that most of the battles we play today are regulated by the 4 max rule which became a "standard" rule to abide to. This honourable rule resolved most of the problem of unbalanced armies, rushes (monks in STW and so on) and it was put forward as an honourable rule by the Honour Society.
So far, so good.
Many mentioned that a possible solution for the notorious SuperYA would be limiting the honour to 5. We all like the idea, but so far it is just a myth. Very few use it. If we want to make to make great, fair, challenging and close matches we must practice this rule en masse! From now on all my games with be 4 max with 5 honour limit and @ 7/8k. I am SURE that if we all use it, it will become a "standard" rule, like the 4 max.
Will you begin to use it as well?
I hope so,
Tera.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Sounds like a good idea.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
http://members.fortunecity.com/argus1000eyes/fighter.gif
I never host with amounts beyond 10K. In fact, I commonly use the 5-6K range, as it offers the best environment in my mind... one where you must chose... wisely.
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
04-10-2002, 04:36
I like this idea also because people can then know that they are equal to or better than others because all use same koku/honour rules.
This should go down like a treat!
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He is the Messiah
No i'm not the Messiah
Only the true Messiah would deny it.
Alright then I am the Messiah.
HE IS THE MESSIAH HOORAY!!!
YagyuSekishusai
04-10-2002, 04:44
I like this ideam but I KNOW people with p*** and moan about this (hell they moan about the 4 max limit) Ill try it and see how it goes
Thanks for the support...
I know Seki, but who doesn't accept these rules doesn't know how to win without his nice ashis.
Tera.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
I do agree and from now on I'll use all limits mentioned...if others don't well the worst that can happen...I'll lose.
Used to it anyway...so no harm done.
Kas
I hope you mean restricting YA to H5, not for all units? I like to have H6 YS, and one surely to complain is Elmo as I think he likes H8 YS http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif ...
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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Konnichiwa,
I understand you feel restrictions with these rules, but consider this: while 'all' units are very nicely designed (thanks to hidden bonusses) and upgrades are very nice, the way upgrades are made drags the units away from their originally designed role with every upgrade. The easiest way to see this is the YA. At Honor 2 it has 10 combatpoints against cav and only 2 against any non cav unit (given that the YariInf vs Cav bonus of 2*4 mentioned in the Prima Strat Guide is correct).
At Honor 8 the YA has 22 points vs Cav but also 14 against any non cav unit. This difference is of course still 8 points, but relatively it's much less.
This also applies to ysams.
Muskets.
While Honor6 muskets shoot more accurate than Honor0, this difference is almost neglectable (34 resp 39 300 shots). The HTH combat of the gunners increases rapidly, the same way as a wmonk does. This makes the guns very nasty against cavalry. When cavalry charges guns it will lose a few, but once engaged in HTH they should wipe the guns. This does not happen, while H0 guns are very weak (-9 combatpoints) H4 has -1. That's still weak, but the cavcharge fails because it hesitates for a while when it's decimated by gunfire. The charge is part of cavpower. Added to that are cavs outnumbered by muskets and will rout.
H9 muskets beat H2 nods 1 out of 5 times, average kills are 43.6: that is in Hand to Hand combat! Imagine investing $1000,000 in the training of a F16 pilot and the result would be that he knows how to drive a tank.
The very best thing would be to play at H0. This would be a bit too, ehm... I guess you know what to think of it. Apart from that there's the problem of low morale then and the problem that one must have the kokus to buy an expensive H2 unit first (you would have enough koku left to buy another H0 JHC, but you can't afford to buy the H2 first).
Note that H5 ysams of 549 koku still has more combat than a 550 koku H2 WM. It would be easy to acquire some 'cheap' weapon or armor upgrades too making the YSam an even more favourable unit. The drawbacks are speed and morale.
While Honor 5 will limit your freedom, it also doesn't fully cover unitbalance. H5 is a compromise. The benefit for both would be nice games.
The games I host have these rules: 7k each, max 4 firearms, max 5 honor. I'm considering to add max 1 weap, max 1 armor and min honor 1 (a H0 kensai or BN is as nasty as H2, but much cheaper). The idea is that you'll need to, but don't have to buy a balanced army.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
@ 7/8k games you surely don't have money to buy H5+ YS etc, tootee.
And if you try to buy them, you won't have money for other units + there are upgrades.
Tera
P.S.
In 10k + use your brains and adjust the "rules" accordingly.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Surely this is getting out of hand?
Just ply 8k or under with 4 max for any unit.
Why start makin honour and arm and wep restrictions?
If u ply 8k and somebody takes high honour YA with weapons etc.Surely the rest of his army will be weak.
I think u can only make so many rules etc for plyin online.After all its about havin fun!And winning http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Too many rules will spoil the game?Apply these into the Tourneys.Yep be no probs there.
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/markuk/t.gif/Fast.gif
Grey Wolves
FastCub
Good post Fast, I agree that 8k is a good koku, and it is a great way to reduce unbalanced armies.
But please, if you see that applying 8k isn't enough (and IT ISN'T - Yuuki please post!), then use the honour limit rule.
If you're fearing that the game will be spoiled, open your eyes, it already is.
Tera
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
My eyes and ears r open,and i do know what PuZZ has and will say about this matter.He(PuZZ) has spoken many times about this.
All im saying is too many rules will spoil it.
After all look at it this way how long now have ppl been plyin 10k?
Now because of ppl views we sort of agreed to ply 8k downwards.Now h5 limit,and also want to restrict weapons and armour? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
If this is the case maybe we should just take 16monks each maybe not.Why becomes boring.
Armour and Weapons r there as hidden stats to help units and suprise enemy.
IMO this maybe is goin to far.
After all its also got to be fun.
10k for friendly is fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Kraellin
04-11-2002, 04:30
since we more or less 'balanced' the game at 7k in 1.02, i dont feel any need to impose rules on anyone at this level if i'm the host. take wahtever you like. we tested super units at 7k against other armies and there wasnt anything too odd there that couldnt be overcome, if you took the right countering units. some of the complaints of 'unbalanced' come from folks who just dont know how to play well. heck, if i play amp, or magy or koc, i'm always gonna yell cheat no matter what they take ;)
above 7k, then i can see a reason for limited and limiting rules. i also tend to abide by what the host sets as rules or i just leave the game. pretty simple. at 10k i like tosa's 4 guns max, H5 max on any unit and all units. this works pretty well. i can still take a large variety of differering armies, including massive horse armies. no limits on that. or i can take a heavy monk or ys or whatever else type of army and load it up on the weapons and armor bonuses. again, no biggie. this IS what the game is at least partially about....taking the right army, surprising your enemy, knowing your enemy and what he likes to take. that's part of the strategy of the game. remove that and we might as well all take the same armies and just fight that way.
i also havent really run into a big trouble with these super ya's. if i'm playing a 10k or better game, i take my own and throw them at his. or i take super monks and throw them at his ya's. it's the same koku amount for each player...deal with it.
now, having just said that, it does get silly if the game just degenerates into big ya and big gun games. oddly enough, when i take a lot of guns i usually get creamed...at any koku level. when the enemy takes lots of guns, i still get creamed. lol. go figure.
i tend to just play. if the host wants rules, then fine, i either accept those or ask for other rules or simply find another game or host one. setting arbitrary rules here in the forum isnt likely to work. we all play different styles at differing levels. some like guns. some hate them. some like cav, some prefer to use 1 or maybe none. some play super ashi's, some dont. some think it honorable to take no guns. some think it honorable to take as many as you like.
i tend to look at the koku amount first, before entering a game. if it's 10k or above i gotta figure i'm going to see superman flying around with a katana in his hand. i just adjust accordingly and bring kryptonite. that's one of the beauties of this game....diversity and options. there is no unit that cant be countered given the exact same amount of koku for each army. it still boils down to YOUR ability, and not just on the battlefield.
rules can add enjoyment to the game. they can also take it away. i'm more for allowing the host to set what he wants (which is naturally something of an advantage to him) and then just coping with that if i wish to play under those rules, than in trying to work out a set rules list for each koku level here in the forum. it's just going to bog down into one of those endless 'opinion/stats' wars that tend to get tedious after the 500th post ;) still, even that can be fun at times ;)
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
04-11-2002, 04:50
Well I can think of one thing to make this all better and that is MTW.
The MTW server(s) should maybe give a place where the host can type in the rules he is using. That way people can as Krae said agree to play by those rules or exit the game.
But the thing that I fear the most for this is one reason why I stopped playing online.
Scenario:
I hosted a game and before I started I made sure everyone repeated the rules back to me which was ALL CAV BATTLE. Now these battles are decidedly fun, and usually take a very short time to finish. It was comp because I remember I was a NoFear at the time and it was 3v3.
When I got into the battle, I noticed that all NoFear's had cav and 1 from defenders had all cav but the other two had a normal army. And that is the thing I fear, which is rightly feared in this community because it is so rife with it. People will cheat to get honour, so naturally we played the battle out and the NoFear's lost because of their slight disadvantage. People will agree to the rules, until they get to choose their units where they will make up their own rules and not give a pigs ass about it.
Sooooooo... just my two cents.
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He is the Messiah
No i'm not the Messiah
Only the true Messiah would deny it.
Alright then I am the Messiah.
HE IS THE MESSIAH HOORAY!!!
Krasturak
04-11-2002, 05:38
Gah!
There is no point trying to impose limits on comp games, since so many comp players lack ethics.
There is a point to the hon limit 5, because the super-ashi are too powerful for the cost, unbalancing play.
For those of us who prefer the interesting relationships of the different units, this makes sense.
Of course those who do not like it are free to host without such limits.
It is also fun to play sometimes with other rules, such as 'all guns' or 'no guns' or 'all cav' and so on ... because these rules give you a chance to have fun with different aspects of the game.
The goal should be fun, and if it isn't fun for you, suggest limits you like ... or no limits at all can be fun too (sometimes).
4 max and 8k can be enough for a good balance, we'll see if that is enough.
Anyway, I hope that at least you all play 7-8k instead of 10k now!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Tera
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Well I can go into a long discourse that limiting the number of units of any types to a maximum of 4 units, makes for predictable armies. Personnelly I don't care what people bring, since I play for the pure enjoyment of the game.
As for Koku value, I have played with armies ranging from 3k to 10k maning with 16 units. You must develop the army you want to use for the map that you are playing and the position you have.
So when you play a defense position in a 3 vs 3, then limiting yourself to 4 units of defensive stance troops defeats the realism of combat. Think about the old formation of Fuedal Japan, Often the armies were spears and arrows. Monks, Cav, No-D, guns were all additional limited units used for shock value. So I will always host games (multi of 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4) with no rules. Makes for interesting and fun battles. And the high honor problem is solved by limiting the koku.
have fun guys.
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"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine...War is hell" General William Tecumseh Sherman
My standard army is composed of 6 ranged, 7 infantry and 3 cav. If you classify an H7/W2/A2 YA as a super ashi, I can take 4 of those at 8K koku, and have H3 on my ND and NC. If I field that same army at 7K koku, I can only take 2 of those YA with H4 YS substituted for the other 2 YA. The 4 max rule doesn't really force any trade off of YA at 8K since I can't afford more than 4 super YA anyway. Below H7 the low morale starts becoming a definite disadvange for the YA. I would say at 7K koku or below you don't "need" a max honor restriction, but keep in mind that will allow one or two of the super YA. A super YA is something that no other h2h unit can defeat except for the naginata, and I'm not so sure that the naginata isn't a problem. Above 7K koku I would go with the max honor 5 restriction. That restores the ND and WM ability to defeat the YA and YS, and brings back the rock, paper, scissors gameplay.
The 4 max unit type rule is something that shouldn't be needed with the v1.02 stat. Many types of unbalanced h2h armies were tried against balanced armies during the testing, and none of them worked. Of course, all that testing was done at 7K koku. I don't know what happens above that.
What I think is needed at all koku levels is a gun limit of 4 or less. It's now clear that the muskets are too stong, and the only way to control that is with a unit limit. I believe the strong guns are what's behind the move to higher koku battles. H2 or H3 units pretty much just run away after a few gun volleys. I'm not sure about archer units, but I think they are ok without unit limits on them.
MizuYuuki ~~~
So far, I only played 1 10K game. The rest were all 5K games and the max unit rule was applied.
I think that if the limited koku (7-8K) is already applied, there is no need for max unit rule (still applied if you prefer). However, the max unit rule (and may be max honor) should be applied for high koku games (above 8k).
So from what I've read...
7000 koku games = All units are balanced, the SuperYA problem would be reduced considerably, honour restriction not needed.
Above 7000 koku = At higher kokus one can afford to field quite a big number of strong SuperYA which leads to a very unbalanced game. At this koku the honour restriction is needed for a balanced game.
Hence normal games should be played @ 7k for the best Total War! Is that correct?
Tera
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
shingenmitch2
04-11-2002, 20:21
H0 or H2 armies? --> NOPE (not as the game works now -- it is a morale issue, armies would break TOO easy and GUNs would be even more effective at doing that)
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Why use 7000 koku or the need to limit at 4OAK (four of a kind? ... hmmm
Well ... guns are too strong... 8+ guns creates real problems.
In multi battles of 3 or more players 12-16 kensai armies cause problems... (they can be hidden and shielded by the other teammates until contact starts afterwhich they are difficult to stop... once all armies are tired, they virtually rule the battlefield. -- I suppose they could be countered by BFN, but the overall fighting value [vs. other units] of a H0 Kensai vs. H0 BFN -- is NOT at all comparable--the H0 Kensai is far more valuable).
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RED
the 4OAK unit limit does not necessarily create look-a-like armies.
You could still run 4HC, 4NC, 4YS, 4CA for an all cav army.
You could have 4Mus, 4 Arch, 4Kens, 4BFN for a completely different army.
Or 4YS, 4WM, 4NI, 4 Guns... all inf...
People just choose to not make these very often.
on the FLIP SIDE...
a 12 gun army is not the height of 'creativity' and 'different' for fun...
How creative with match-ups does the player with 16 Kensai or 14 guns have to be? When you are guaranteed to have at least 4 different unit types, the player has to think about matchups and maneuver more...
Once people figure out that a high percentage of any particular unit is very successful, they naturally gravitate to it and it becomes "standard" fare... high-gun armies would probably be standard if people didn't limit things.
4OAK actully forces mixture and creativity even though u may always find some units are typically chosen.
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Ideally:
1. Musket power would be reduced
2. all units would be set for H2 for online play (with armor/weap upgrades available) (no gaining experience during a battle -->esp because of Kensai)
3. MORALE would be established separately from Honor and adjustable -- most would want to play with morale at the level of H5 now.
[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 04-11-2002).]
I believe you can thank AMP for discovering how to effectively use the 16 kensai. I was in a 3v3 battle where he just walked 3 enemy armies off the field, and both of his teammates had dropped. One had dropped right at the beginning of the battle. I had forgotten about this battle, and it could be that 16 kensai are a problem at low koku. If it is, I would say max 4 guns and 4 kensai, and leave everything else unrestricted for now.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 04-11-2002).]
ahh someone actually see's my point.
the problem with a 4 max unit rule is you get some type of variance of 4 guns, with 2 to 4 archers. The rest is predictable. You will either see balanced mix of forces along the lines of 2-3 Cav usually Nag Cav, 2-3 No-D or Monks, 3-4 Yari or Ashi. There are variances on this mix, but becomes predictable.
The predictablity lies on what the individual is comfortable in using. While in 1 vs 1 play the 4 max rule might be okay. In Multi-game battles of 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4 that I like to host and play. I believe that you have to bring the army that fits the fighting plan for that map, and the part you play. For instance on a map like Iron board - you are defending with 2 other clan mates. You have the center position. With the 4 max rule you are limited from bringing what would would fullfil your particler mission. ie 5-6 guns for the center, 5-6 yari, and then sword and cav to help your line, and your allies are limited to what they bring for the flanks.
While the 4 max rule will bring more balance to the 1 vs 1 competive fights, it places to much restriction of teamwork and balancing your forces based upon your individual tactics and abilities. But I see your point about limiting special troops to balance out the game also, but that is what koku can do. But in all fairness to the discussion if you want to place an honor limit, Just state the simple rule is that the general must have the highest honor. Ie in a 7-8K army its hard to have to many high honor troops if the general has to be the highest.
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"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine...War is hell" General William Tecumseh Sherman
Maybe Terazawa could put a poll up and we see how the voting goes?This way we will know how and what ppl want to play?
ie;
All for Comp
1/ 8k or lower max 4 units
2/ 7k
3/ 8k max 5honour
4/ 10k max 5honour
5/ 7k max 4 units
Sure u get the idea.
Would it be possible to do this for us?
Im sure u can describe the options alot better than me.
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/markuk/t.gif/Fast.gif
Grey Wolves
FastCub
Magyar Khan
04-11-2002, 23:46
4 max is limiting the excotic armies, like i have one myself. Capping the honour is ok.
although common sense should prevail...
Yes I agree the 4 max is limiting. I will go back to my original opinion of 4 guns or less to control them, and max honor 5 if you care about controlling the super YA. I don't know what to do about the possible kensai problem except to put a limit on them as well.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Krasturak
04-12-2002, 16:36
There is no real need to limit the guns.
Krast's ten-gun army is easily defeated by players at intermediate level.
*counting Krast's musk*
1, 2, 3.. 5.. 7, 8!! Gah 4 max! 4 max! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif muahahaha
For games (always 4v4 now) I host, feel free to bring whatever you want! 16KS no problem. 16 musk and God be with you. 16 superYA and make sure the farms are ready! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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shingenmitch2
04-12-2002, 19:29
Krast -- u are correct to a point, but 10 guns on Iron bored all H3-4 Protected by 4 super YA in a multie game should be an easy win...
Tootie, you might sing different tune when in a multi, u find one army backed by 16 Kensai that are used well... there is an imbalance that occurs.
Magy - I have no problem with an "all NC army" or something like that... they require great skill to win with, the other types I describe are more about imballance and hurt the core of the game.
Capping Honor is just too hard to track and enforce... (and since Weap/Armor in-effect adds to Honor... it renders flag counting pointless)
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Red --I see what ur getting at, but my point was that 4OAK can create very different armies, people just tend to go "ballanced." Typically this is because not everyone on a team knows each other or what their allies might bring.
But (for arguements sake) if it is shown that in a 3v3, the team that has one all Kensai army always wins... then you will find that coordinated 3v3 teams (where the players know each other) will always have 1 guy bring 16 kensai. So, in that case, the standard setup would be 2 balanced armies and 1 kensai army... okay, the armies aren't look-a-likes individually, but as teams they would be...
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I'm fairly certain that in 3v3+ on Ironbored (if you didn't have a 4 limit) coordinated teams that wanted a guaranteed win, would always have 1 guy bring 9-11 guns...
[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 04-12-2002).]
[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 04-12-2002).]
MagyarKhans Cham
04-12-2002, 20:37
all nagcav sound sboring but the khans all cav consists of
1 hcav/nagcav general 6 nagcav 7 horsearchers and 2 yaricav
MagyarKhans Cham
04-12-2002, 20:38
i just received a message that the wolves would be priviliged to play this all kensai armies. can we try it?
Krasturak,
You're joking right? Remember that 2v2 you and Bachus had on a flat open map against the balanced armies Mitch and I brought? I don't think we had a chance against your 10 guns. I may have had a chance if I had brought all cav or I could have brought 10 guns myself. I hope you don't mind if I withdraw my troops as soon as I see the 10 guns. My balanced army has no chance against that unless it's raining or there is plenty of tree cover. I'll conceed the victory on the spot.
MizuYuuki ~~~
GAH! 10 guns! GAH!
Krast must like the smell of gunpowder in the morning. Nothing like the smell of sulfur and carbon to wake you up.
And, gunpowder -- like sand -- when it gets in your teeth, it grinds away at your enamel, thus 'sanding' you teeth... making them sharper... so that you can better gnish the heads... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
shingenmitch2
04-15-2002, 02:23
Magy --
like I said any all cav army is fine... very hard to win with so I have no problem with it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I hope you didn't misread my 2nd Post -- I was using a "SUPPOSED POSSIBILITY" of 16 kensai army in mulites as unbeatable as a discussion example ... I was not saying "For certain" that they were unbeatable. My point was about how 3 different army compositions could be come just as standard as 3 balanced armies...
Personally I'm not sure if they are unbeatable or not--- but I think they can be very unbalancing.
That said, you have seen first-hand the effect that 16kensai can have... Me and UglyStrike & 2 other people played you, 00000, and 2 other guys.
Strike and I took you and 1 ally on the right side of the map out quickly. We both had a lot of our army left. We joind the players on the left side of the map (we had 3 armies + remnants of 1) versus 1 army + 16 kensai of 000000 (you can guess who that player was!). That one beat-up army and kensai routed all the rest of us off... we had no answers to stop the 16 kensai... my guns could not kill them quick enough and tired troops rout faster than the Kensai...
However,if you see me and Yuuk, and there is a multi game up (3v3 or 4v4), I'd be happy to try to demonstrate the 16 kensai benefit... I can't run it as well as Amp or UglyPolar, but that should be okay...
[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 04-14-2002).]
OK let me put it this way... I feel that the host is entitiled to his own opinion and is free to set any rules he likes.
Other players have same choice, when joining the game. So rules, whaever they are should be sensitive enough to be tolerable.
During the past week I played 10k 4 max 5 hon max games. I hosted myself about, say, 60, competitive games and in 1 out of 15 cases the person turns around and leaves the game.
The rest go along and comply. THere are some that don't of course, mostly rookies. THey get beaten bad even if they bring 5 or 6 musks.
An issue raised about the difficulty of checking is obsolete. I am sure that everyone checks opponent's army. unless we are talking about h6 ninjas.
Regards, Tenki1Yoritomo aka Dom.
Oh yeah, and my connection cannot handle that Cav charge of Magy's, lol.
Regards, Tenki1Yoritomo aka Dom
BomilkarDate
04-16-2002, 00:07
I think 7 or 8 k are good for the game. Normally I use armies with only 3 units of the same kind, because that gives me more tactical possibilities. I do not care too much if someone plays a 10 k game and uses four high honour ashis as long as he gives me a good game. If he does not give me a fair game, I will not play him again. Of course there are some guys who think the number behind their name is more important than their name. But I do not remember their number, I only remember their name. Some names tell me there is a good player others warn me of dishonourable, even cheating players or such ones who only play comp games sitting on the highest hill the shogun community ever saw.
Some time ago I was one of this 10 k players always using 4 high honour Ashis. But after a while it became boring, because it is not really challenging to win a battle that way. To all the 10 k gamers, try the game at 7 k once and you will never want to go back to 10 k. In 7 k games the flank or rear attacks, the manouvers, the timing of the different units, short all tactical aspects are much more important than in 10 k games. This is because a H3 unit will break if it is attacked in the rear, but a H9 Ashi does not.
I think the best games you can play are at about 7 k with a 4 max or even better a 3 max, where both players have a balanced army. If you have a four max, lots of games are decided in a shootout between the 4 gunners and two archers both players bring. In a 3 max that does not work any more. Of course, the guns and the archers are still important, but they cannot win the day alone.
I think a 5 honour max is too low. Some people use H6 Yari Sams, and they use them well. A H6 Ashigaru is no problem (they want to go home and watch the rice grow as soon as the battle gets harder) and as many people said before, too many rules, too many restrictions can kill the gameplay. So a H6 max gives the player much more strategic options. Some might never use a H6 unit in a 8 k game, others do. If they do, the rest of their army is weaker.
About the kensi: I am not as experienced as a player as others in this community, but in the about 400 games I played, I never had a problem dealing with kensi. I never learned to use them correctly too. But whenever I had to face them (I faced everything from one to 10 Kensi up to now), I tired them with cheap troups like my Yaris and then ran over them with cavs or No dachi. Someone mentioned H0 Kensi being a big problem. I do not think so. A H0 Kensi costs about the same as a H2 No Dachi and the No Dachi kill him easily. Not to forget that you can easily make H0 Kensi run home if you block them and then charge their rear as soon as they get tired.
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Strength and honour
Bomilkar Date
All ashigaru is fine... but I make sure my men carry forth my imperial porta-potty.
After all, a ROYAL FLUSH beats FOUR OF A KIND.
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
04-16-2002, 23:09
ROFLMAO!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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He is the Messiah
No i'm not the Messiah
Only the true Messiah would deny it.
Alright then I am the Messiah.
HE IS THE MESSIAH HOORAY!!!
Quote Originally posted by tootee:
*counting Krast's musk*
1, 2, 3.. 5.. 7, 8!! Gah 4 max! 4 max! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif muahahaha
For games (always 4v4 now) I host, feel free to bring whatever you want! 16KS no problem. 16 musk and God be with you. 16 superYA and make sure the farms are ready! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is the problem for 4vs4 even 3vs3.
First, on a small map, there is not much room to move the army to get a good attack position. Flanking the defenders is not an option. Can't avoid a head on charge most of the time.
Second, if the defenders all got 4 musks, it is a bigger problem. 16 musks line up across the map, back up by YS's, cavalries, NDs Monks... I hate this kind of game.
RageFury
04-18-2002, 04:23
Dont really see wot all the fuss is about to be honest. 7-10K seems ok to me and although unbalanced hed to head we r playuing with whole armies here not just individual units.
I play in games with rules and in games without rules doesnt bother me..
And i dont recall havin lost to anyone with Super-Ashis even in 10K games. Even been Super-Ashi rusheda few times.
This is same situation as in STW with monks.. But people found ways to counter a monk rush and slaughter the rusher without resorting to a million monks urself...
If people wanna play with super-ashis let em, and find ur own way to beat em... u will be far more satisfied once you slaughter a few of these fools http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
If you really want to impose limits just keep to the 4 max rule at wotever koku... it solves most problems.
People should be allowed to have fun however they want to play as long as they are not cheating in my opinion, and STW is probably the only community ive come across where people gripe so much about such little things.
-Fury
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