Who do you use more- Kataphraktoi or Prononai?

[The_678]

I was just wondering which unit you use more when playing as the Byzantines. You probably already know, but Kat's are slow with 3 attack and more armour. Prononai's have 4 attack regular cav speed and less armour. Now besides heirs and kings, which unit do you use more often? For me I use them pretty much the same. I'd have both in my army, 2 Kat's for rearing the linesmen, and 2 Pro's for attacking archers and stuff.

[FoundationII]

If I play with the Byzantines my army is about 80% cav, I use 2 kats as a reserve force, 1 as my gen and 1 spread out in 1 line in front of my inf to break the enemy inf formation before my inf arrive in the melee. I use my prononai on my flanks 2 on each flank

[Mithrandir]

I only play MP, and PRonois are by far the better choice, cats are too slow, and their morale is poor.

[Aelwyn]

Prononai are faster, and have lower building requirements. They seem just as tough, as well.

[RZST]

pronai are good, i use them for flanking.
katap's are good too, best when you just charde the enemy HEAD ON. they have good defence and can stand meele better than pronai.

they both require the same building requirements.
pronai: horse breeder guild + Spear guild
kataps: horse breeder guild + armourer guild

i dont know about you but +3 armour is better than the spear upgrade :)

now that i think about it.. kataps with 3 armor...wow.

[ichi]

Porno Cav rule. Essentially they are 'reduced charge' Feudal Knights and come stock (=V0) at morale 8.

Unit Name..........Cost...Att...Def...Arm...Charge
Pronoiai..V0........425.....4......4$.....6$......6
Feudals..V0.........425.....4......4$.....5$......8

Kataphraktoi need to be V2 to reach morale 8 (at V0 they are morale 4, which is too low for my taste and also why you see those high valor Byz Gens in SP).

Has anyone mentioned that Kats are slow? Oh yeah, like a billion times. As slow as camels and Gothic Knights. One of my favorite stories is when a unit of exhausted Kats was chased down by a unit of Slav Warriors. Now that's slow

Only problem with Pronoiai iis the higher armor in summer desert heat, which is why Allah made Byz Lancers and mercenaries.

I like to use a Kat as my gen, but Pronoiai are the preferred fighters.

ichi

[son of spam]

Kataphraktoi are much better than pronoi in SP early, since you have to really build up Nicea to get +1v pronoi, whereas you get silver armored kats from constantinople pretty quickly.

Plus they're cheaper by 50 florins.

Plus Wes made them have arrows http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

I like to think of kats as a really fast infantry.

[Atilla1]

In a campaign game---Kats are way better because your heirs come as Kats.

That means you get Kat units with killer instinct, great warrior, and natural leader for moral bonuses.

Prionai Allegion units dont get these upgrades.

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ]Has anyone mentioned that Kats are slow? Oh yeah, like a billion times. As slow as camels and Gothic Knights. One of my favorite stories is when a unit of exhausted Kats was chased down by a unit of Slav Warriors. Now that's slow


Actually all cav gets chased down by Slav Warriors if exhausted, they all walk with the speed of 9 and Slavs runs with 12.

The slow thing is when they run, kats runs with 12, the same as fast infantry, but kats got a charge of 16 instead of 13 for fast infantry. Camels actually runs faster with 14 and got a charge of 16.

As said use them like fast infantry.

I don't know witch I use most because I haven't played a Byzantine campaign in years, but I would guess that I would use them around 50/50

[katank]

katanks rule

kataphracts like mentioned earlier, they can be gotten faster in constantinople where they have valour bonus.
thus, they essentially start at 6 morale.
building up nicea would take soooo long.

silver armor is also better than spear guild which doesn't even give a valour bonus to the other units built there.

plus, prons cost 125 support rather than 105 that katanks do so the support is really crippling and cost 50 florins more to begin with.

ever see a nicely timed katank charge?

I personally use loads of byz inf. backed up by treb archers in my games and throw in some varangians when I can with 2-3 katanks including my general and occasionally a pron.

however, I see the discussion as somewhat limited in that they fill different roles. this is kinda like the GK vs. lancer argument earlier. one is slow tank that is good for slug fests whereas the other is for charging and recharging like typical knights.

[Crazy Duke]

I use them 50:50, depending on terrain

[econ21]

I just finished the Byzantine campaign in the PBM forum and ended up using 50:50. I could only build kats from Constantinople, but they came with very good armour. I tended to build one Pronoiai Allagion each turn as well.

I used the kats to counter-charge enemy knights, typically holding them in reserve in the centre. Byz lack good spears and in the end, I found it better to rely on Varangians and Byzantine infantry for my front lines rather than use vanilla spearmen. If enemy knights did threaten, the kats with the armour upgrades could more than hold their own.

The Pronoiai Allagion I tended to station one on each flank and strike when the enemy where committed. They died more easily than the kats, but their speed made them much better for breaking through on the flanks and capitalising on victory by pursuit (I generally did not include light cavs in my first 16 units, as towards the end-game with very large battles it was hard to justify them displacing infantry or PA).

[Vexilles]

In all cases i take kats over pronai, im pretty sure pronai are high era and that there not even equal with western knigts, its far cheaper to tech up some cats rather then waste time tryin to get these up to par, plus if u need a fast cav get byz lancers, there really just a lighter pronai. Thats in single player of course, in multiplayer i still go kats as i rarely play the byz outside of the early era. So imo KATS ALL THE WAY http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Bezalel]

Pronoai are good flankers, and good against other cav. Kataphraktoi are slow, but have a good defense. I would use them for plugging holes in the main line, or just helping the main line in general.

[katank]

prons are high era. it's mostly their support and the fact that nicea needs to be built up so much to get them.
armour for other units in const. is more attractive than upgraded spear building although I guess you can build varangs in nicea if you get the spear guild first and build a palace. hmmm.
byz lancers are kinda useless IMHO as byz cav and prons both do better than it in most things.

[mbrasher1]

Well, I have a little kat anecdote for youse guys.

I was defending Constantinople with 380 men (200 slav warrior units, a 40 Avar nobles led by a 4-star, 60 FMAA, 80 szekely) while my main force was besieging Bulgaria after having kicked out a huge Byz army into Greece.

I figured that they could defend the citadel against the larger force until my main force arrived.

Then the Byz attacked Constantinople. With 80 katanks, led by an 8 star. Against my 380 led with a 4-star. Heh-heh, I think.

I set my infantry and Avars up on a hill and ran the kats around the map with the szekely. I shot up one pretty good -- though arrows are difficult to use on those tough nuts.

Anyways, after my szekely are out of arrows, I have killed maybe 25 or so. The kats charge up the hill, slav warriors charge down, my FMAA, Avars and szekely flank and the katanks grind them up, even uphill.

I lose 20 slavs, 40, 60 80 slavs before I even killed a kat in melee.

There is no way that porno cav could have achieved these results. I have enormous respect for those armoured beasts. Nothng fancy, just a head-on armoured assault.

Oh yeah. I lost.

[RZST]

off topic:
argh porno cav?? wtf kind of a name is that?
there was barney, which makes no sense whatsoever now there porno cav?? wtf???.
i can see katatanks since theyre basically tanks but i cannot see how porno relates to pronai allegion O.o; or how barney relates to byz inf.

damn your lingo >_

[The Witch-King]

I think the correct term is 'Prono cav'. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Basileus]

Kataphraktoi and Alans is what i use as Byz, Alans are moded so that they can be built in Georgia and Khazar.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 08 2004,10:14)]prons are high era. it's mostly their support and the fact that nicea needs to be built up so much to get them.
armour for other units in const. is more attractive than upgraded spear building although I guess you can build varangs in nicea if you get the spear guild first and build a palace. hmmm.
byz lancers are kinda useless IMHO as byz cav and prons both do better than it in most things.
No, Pronoai's are not High Era. They are available in Early :)

On another note, build up Nicea to master-horsy ;) and you will have +2 valor Pronoai. My preferred :)

As to the spear-guild: if you have a chance to upgrade it to a master-building, it gives +1 valor to varangian guards...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[katank]

sorry, I meant to say they are not high. good point about the upgrade to masters for valour bonuses. one good thing about such high reqs of guilds is that you are only a step away from the masters.
I still prefer kats though as they are tougher and cheaper

[Atilla1]

I was relooking at the stats for both units after this post.

Id definatly go Kattys over Prionai.


Why? kattys have 5 defence. Prionai only have 3+1 for shield.

Im beginning to become a big believer in having big big defences on units along with a respectible attack so I can still kill stuff.

[katank]

yep, defense is great but for that, I suggest you examine Avar nobles. they have the defence of kats and have large shields. they beat kats 1 on 1, cost only 50 florins more but only 60 support
they are also within easy reach for the byz and have decent speed unlike kats.

[RZST]

avar nobles defeat kata's???...PREPOSTEROUS...
*checks stats*

whoa... my god, they actually do o.o;

[Brutal DLX]

Kataphraktoi often rule in SP due to the valour bonus given to them through certain v&vs. This may fool some into thinking basic katas are the same kind of killers that those in an SP campaign were.
Aside of the high upkeep cost in SP campaigns, Pronoai's should be the main heavy cav for any Byzantine army.

[econ21]

You might have a point, Brutal_DLX, and it is not just the V&V, but also the decent armour upgrade they often get in SP. I am often surprised by how weak the Islamic v. armoured cav (Khwazariam or something) is, when hired as mercs. If you look at the stats, they are basically kats with normal speed and a slightly lower charge. Yet they die much easier than Kats seem to in SP, presumably because they get no bonuses.

I am not sure the question was just MP, though. In SP, I'd still argue for a 50:50 mix.

[katank]

simon's right. kats are much tougher than kwarzies in SP campaigns because they get valour bonus in const. as well as by default having silver armour due to reqs whereas not even a valour bonus for the kwarzies due to requiring both masters buildings to be built.

they are also the BG unit and hence you get jedi kats whereas no jedi kwarzies.

I personally like kats better as I do use they to counter charge enemy heavy cav and they do this better than prons. but I guess the prons still have their uses or the byz army would be painfully slow.

I actually just use steppe cav or byz cav to fill for the light cav duties as to tie the enemy cav up and then use my kats to charge and break them when facing fast cav.

[Seven.the.Hun]

both are good cavalry to use, if choosing for byzantines though, i'd lean slightly more to the pronos...
but why go one or the other, discriminating is sometimes a bad thing, diversity and versatility are better

[mfberg]

I build Kats in Constantinople, Pronoai in Nicea, (I always build the +1 valor units in their country), but the Royal lineage Kats in the early game are the best.

A unit of Kats, Skilled defender (9*) and half a unit of naptha throwers vs 2 Ghulam BG (4*), 2 desert archer, 1 spearman, 2 peasant gave a victory for the Kats with only 11 dead (9 Kats, 2 Naptha) and this was on autopilot. If I play that myself I tire my Kats out too quickly chasing the general.

mfberg

[Nowake]

I prefer Kats because of one reason: they tend to stand their ground, while pronoiai may run away much earlier.

[MadKow]

Funny. Reading this topic i realized i never played a Byzantine campaign... First i was overwhelmed by the size of the territory, later on because when playing east i always chose the Turkish. The AI seems to favor building Kaths though. That i know.
Me and my Janissaries.

[PanzerJaeger]

It seems like theres a split between SP and Mp on this one. Porno cav is pretty much a better unit, speed, hitting power, moral ect. And in mp u dont have building constrictions. :P

[katank]

porno cav? they lack staying power though and don't do as well in counter charging and beating enemy heavy cav.

I use kats to stop enemy heavy cav charges cold which I can't do with anything else as the byz really lack any good spear troops.

[VikingHorde]

Avar Nobles have better stats. In a hungarian campain, I used Avars to kill cats. Its the +1 shield that does it. If the cats are made in constantinopel, they +1 and cats win.
If you build Pronoai in Nicea with master horse, you will get + 2V. I you start the game in high, then the Pronoai are easy to build and they will western knights are no match.

[VikingHorde]

Porno cav, don't want to see them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (MadKow @ Mar. 17 2004,19:21)]Funny. Reading this topic i realized i never played a Byzantine campaign... First i was overwhelmed by the size of the territory, later on because when playing east i always chose the Turkish. The AI seems to favor building Kaths though. That i know.
Me and my Janissaries.
Try the byz on late then, much less land http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif