View Full Version : Teach me how to use HA
I suck at using Horse Archers. I want to try a Turkish campaign but I know that Turks use a lot of HA's at the beginning and throughout. Can somebody please teach me how to use HA's
HopAlongBunny
03-06-2004, 22:32
There was a very good replay or 2; they may still be around, try a "search". To really use them well takes micromanagement and patience; the results can be awesome.
Just a few things quickly:
1) Keep them away from foot archers obviously
2) Use them to hit infantry, not archers
3) Watch out when they are being attacked, sometimes they won't react to multiple attacks. Sometimes they don't even react to one attack correctly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
4) If you are going up against x-bows or arbs, you can sneak up your horse archers and get off 3-4 volleys before they get hit by any missles. Make sure you spread them out, and then run them back out of harm's way. Don't do this too much though or they'll get real tired and be useless.
5) Keep your horse archers on the flanks unless they're up front shooting infantry.
6) Work both sides. If you can have 1-2 horse archers on each flank, and use them simultaneously.
look for seljuk sinan's replays. his ability to use pure HAs is absolutely amazing.
raiding with HAs on enemy territories can yield amazing results of essentially no casualties for you and tons of casualties for the enemy.
1. take them off the skirmish AI as that is really stupid and will likely get them killed.
2. watch them carefully as they tend to be itching for melee http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif this is especially true for mtd. xbows
3. use multiple ones. use one to draw the enemy and then run them past others which are sitting still. the enemy takes a while to switch to chasing the static ones that are closer in which case your baiting and shooting HAs switch roles. after a bunch of flybys, their units would be run ragged and shot to bits.
4. isolate units by drawing them away and then attempt to get one HA between that unit and their army. eventually, you should get them surrounded by your HAs in which case they charge towards a unit only to have them run away and are shot by the other circling HAs and then repeat try another only to have the smae thing happen. see frogbeastegg's unit guide for an example of varangians shot up in this situation.
5. avoid foot archers like a plague. at least don't missile duel them. if forced to fight them, hold down alt to force melee and charge them.
6. avoid enemy light cav and pincer movements. this is a good reason to not use skirmish as you would end up skirmishing into your own units and get sandwiched or even into their main battle lines
this is all i can think of right now
see the threads on counter HAs to find other things you want to avoid.
Doug-Thompson
03-07-2004, 06:42
Play the Hungarians in early. They get HA early and get lots of peasants and spearmen to shoot up in Moldavia, Wallachia and Serbia. Practically the whole early Hungarian campaign can be fought by HA only.
When I first started out, I'd use one unit of horse archers at a time and keep the rest of the army out of harm's way. It was easier to micro-manage and learn the ropes.
I keep HA in open formation. Then seem to be able to move more freely, for obvious reasons.
PseRamesses
03-07-2004, 10:50
I micromanage HA and usually I use 2-4 units at the time like this:
HA1 HA3
Target
HA2 HA4
HA3 and 4 engages target and when target gets to close I move them back behind HA1 and 2 that now engages the target. Repeat the process. Don´t use hold formation or group them together in pairs since they won´t turn and regroup that fast. If stressed use "p" and pause while you issue your orders. Good luck
The keyword is "micromanagement". I need to using the pause key to properly maneuver the horse archers to keep them out of harms way. It's best to use them to pepper the enemy units infantry and slower calvary with arrows.
The Mongol horse archers are extraordinarily tough. Fight some battles against them and watch how they are used. Maybe you should figtht some battles against the Turks too, to get some experience.
The classic tactic is to get the enemy to chase the HA units until they are worn exhausted. Then the HAs can turn around and slaughter them. The HAs cannot deal with an enemy that just sits and shoots back at them, like foot archers. But once the foot archers are tired and out of ammo, the HAs can win a melee against them if there are no other units availabe for the melee.
Doug-Thompson
03-09-2004, 00:11
Micro is always the key to playing cavalry archers, whether you're playing "Age of Kings," "MTW" or any other game that have the rascals in them.
There are a couple of problems with skirmish mode. First, an HA unit "skirmishes" with the unit its attacking. If you've targeted a big group of peasants, the HA will only retreat when the peasants advance.
If the peasants stand still, the HA will stand still too -- even as a high-valor bunch of foot knights walk right up and massacre them all.
If you reject the advice of experts and insist on using the skirmish mode, be sure to select the target closest to you and advancing toward you as the target.
mbrasher1
03-09-2004, 02:22
I find that if I have more than 4 HA in a battle they are not used to their fullest -- they get in each other's way. I usually keep 2 together on a flank to lure a unit away. As soon as you can get it alone and away from enemy cav, double team it from front and back. This work on ANY enemy unit, but you need the heavier HA units (szeks, SHC) to take on heavier infantry (VG, Byz inf).
If the enemy has lots of strong, fast cav (an enemy with Alan mercs basically mean that your HA are going to be less than optimal), use your HA to soften up the main enemy line prior to the engagement of the enemy.
Also, I guess I will differ with some of the other posters and advise you to take on archers. If your HA has a chance to charge them, do so. Most enemy archers will lose even to melee-weak turcopoles/turcoman horse. Never duel with missiles with the foot archers. But as weak as HA are in melee, foot archers are usually weaker.
In a perfect battle, 4 HA will have destroyed 2 enemy units prior to the main forces clashing. Then, they will be in relatively good shape on the enemy's flank or rear. Smash their archers or charge into their main line from the rear. Either move will rout the bulk of the enemy army.
mbrasher1 is right about anti archers. melee archers when they are unprotected.
BTW, you don't even have to necessarily charge them into the enemy to inflict damage.
just having them on the enemy flanks or the rear would inflict a morale penalty.
I don't even charge them in if my main line is winning. charging them would just cause them to break faster but is unnecessary frequently
be warned about some archers though. longbows, treb archers, brigands, and many turkish hybrids are also very capable melee troops and can maul your HA.
there are also flukes such as byz cav getting pawned by vanilla archers they often get huge valour jump from killing your high tech HA and can become even harder to kill.
*sniff* my szekelys got owned by a bunch o trebizond archers..*sniff* oh yeah, the archers had an 8star leader too. O_O;
If u want to see how to use horsearchers ( and how to dont use them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) u can download many replays from wolf site.
fruitfly
03-09-2004, 14:35
There's loads of good advice in this thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=10420;st=25). Scroll down to Revenant69's second post on the page for a link to Sinan's cavalry tutorials (they're MTWv1.1 replays) - there's a VI replay linked to on the first page.
The key when targeting infantry/Katanks with HA is to get one unit in front of them and one behind them. The one behind will be shooting them in the back and get lots of kills as they won't get a shield bonus, plus having units either side means a big morale penalty. If you manage to get an enemy unit isolated, then you can rely on skirmish as it'll alternate trying to chase your two HA units and get shot to pieces by the pair of them.
Foot archers of the vanilla or desert type are best charged and engaged in melee as they'll always win a shooting duel. Trebizond archers pack a nasty sting in H2H though, especially with those high valour Byz generals, so you should avoid them if you can.
If the enemy has light cavalry, then an army composed solely of HA is a bad idea and it's best to take some cavalry of your own to nullify the threat posed by theirs. If they've only got infantry or heavy cavalry though, your HA will have a field day. The main thing to remember, as others have pointed out, is that the AI skirmishing will only skirmish away from the unit you're shooting and ignore all the others, so manual micromanagement is the best way to keep your HA out of harms way and get the most effective use out of them.
Kristaps
03-09-2004, 23:29
Quote[/b] (Ky Kiske @ Mar. 08 2004,23:09)]*sniff* my szekelys got owned by a bunch o trebizond archers..*sniff* oh yeah, the archers had an 8star leader too. O_O;
Trebizond archers have a good attack... 3 for a vanilla version to be exact.
If build in Trebizond, they have attack of 4; if built in Trebizond with a master-bow building they have an attack of 5 fresh rolling out of the training camp...
Add some armor upgrade, which Byzantines are likely to give them, and the +4 valor from an 8-star general and they are killing machines :))) Your poor szekely had no chance :)))
On another note, I've noticed that HA's auto-skirmish much better if you keep them in a tight formation 5-6 rows deep (not optimal for shooting accuracy) - a formation close to a square. In this manner, they are able to skirmish even around edges and corners of the map...
mbrasher1
03-09-2004, 23:45
I forgot. Another good use for HA that have run out of arrow is mowing down routers.
Since an enemy unit which is routed suffers a -8 defense penalty, the attack of your lowly turcoman horse or whatever is now greater than the CHARGE of a spanish lancer. Usually their hit in the rear, too, so you can add ANOTHER 7 to your attack.
This shows the power of the lowly HA.
Doug-Thompson
03-09-2004, 23:46
Quote[/b] (fruitfly @ Mar. 09 2004,07:35)]... get one unit in front of them and one behind them. The one behind will be shooting them in the back and get lots of kills as they won't get a shield bonus, plus having units either side means a big morale penalty.
This is an excellent point, but it's easier said than done. How do you maneuver them into position, especially in a battle with multiple units?
brasher makes a good point about routers as they are fastest cav 24 run 26 charge.
I often keep them on the flanks and don't charge them just to inflict morale penalty. When their line collapses, my HA are in perfect position to pursue.
Doug-Thompson, that would have to be done with some baiting of the target unit to separate it from the rest of the enemy line and then to get another HA in between that unit and the rest of the enemy once there is room for the HA to maneuver in there.
this is definitely easier said than done and that's why mere mortals like us cannot micro more than about 5-6 HAs at a time in a reasonable manner without using pause whereas all HA armies, while powerful, are only properly used in the hands of experts like Sinan.
mbrasher1
03-10-2004, 01:48
Hi Doug. It is often difficult to maneuver your guys to where they are best deployed.
The best thing to do is to leave your main army idle while you prepare the enemy army with your HA. If attacking, charge ahead with your HAs and draw some of the bad guys out.
If defending, put the army near the rear of the map, and the HAs to the front. Both these approaches will give the HAs the time they need to do their job.
BTW, I was fighting the pope -- the pointy-capped turd had the gall to invade my Venice. I had 6 szekely and an otherwise balanced army of 600 troops (crossbows and armored spears). The pope had an army of 1200 -- modern feudal sarges and MAA -- after a reemergence.
I placed the army near the rear map edge and sent my szekely out to skirmish.
After seeing their archers draw first blood on my szekely, my szekelys on my left flank retreated, drawing with them a mounted sergeant unequipped to fight 3 szekelys waiting on a hill. My right flank drew off and destroyed a unit of FS, and then the unit of archers behind it. The right flank attack was wide open, I chewed up more archers and shot up some FMAA. Their main army veered towards my left flank szekelys, who were placed on a hill and shot up their army as it advanced.
My right flank szekelys ripped up some vanilla archers.
Despite one of the szekelys on the right getting pincered between two units of FS, I wrecked 6 of their units -- two on the left and 4 on the right.
Bear in mind that my main army had not moved an inch through all of this.
Then the papist army started marching quickly away from my position. I charged their rear archers with the szekely and they routed, causing a chain reaction among their entire army. I killed 400 and captured another 400 enemy, at the loss of 45 szekely.
I used to think that SHC were the best horse archers. The speed of the szeks are definitely worth it, and I find that their low defense never comes into play, as they generally only defend when they want to. Speed is paramount with HAs.
Doug-Thompson
03-10-2004, 02:30
Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 09 2004,16:58)]... and that's why mere mortals like us cannot micro more than about 5-6 HAs at a time in a reasonable manner without using pause whereas all HA armies, while powerful, are only properly used in the hands of experts like Sinan.
That sounds true.
I normally leave my HA in open formation. This allows them to change direction very rapidly.
If I want to dash around an enemy flank, though or shoot a gap in the enemy lines, I'll use the wedge and convert to open when they're ready to fire.
I only use close formation when I'm stuck behind my own infantry and providing support fire, and there are no enemy archers about.
Doug-Thompson
03-10-2004, 02:46
Quote[/b] (mbrasher1 @ Mar. 09 2004,18:48)]The best thing to do is to leave your main army idle while you prepare the enemy army with your HA. If attacking, charge ahead with your HAs and draw some of the bad guys out.
If defending, put the army near the rear of the map, and the HAs to the front. Both these approaches will give the HAs the time they need to do their job.
... 400 and captured another 400 enemy, at the loss of 45 szekely.
I used to think that SHC were the best horse archers. The speed of the szeks are definitely worth it, and I find that their low defense never comes into play, as they generally only defend when they want to. Speed is paramount with HAs.
That's exactly what I do, mbrasher1. HA are so micro-intensive, I turned the time limit off and managed them and them only while the rest of the army waited in a good position on a hillside — though I never achieve results like that
fruitfly
03-11-2004, 16:52
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ Mar. 09 2004,22:46)]
Quote[/b] (fruitfly @ Mar. 09 2004,07:35)]... get one unit in front of them and one behind them. The one behind will be shooting them in the back and get lots of kills as they won't get a shield bonus, plus having units either side means a big morale penalty.
This is an excellent point, but it's easier said than done. How do you maneuver them into position, especially in a battle with multiple units?
There's generally a lot of unused width on the battle map when you're fighting the AI, so if I've got plenty of HA, I'll group them into two pairs on either flank. One pair sits in front of the enemy, out of range and just off to the side to bait them, while the other pair does a wide arc to get behind them without attracting too much attention. Once they're in place, I'll get one of the pair in front to advance towards their flank and try to lure the end unit or two into attacking by peppering them with arrows.
If you can co-ordinate this approach on both flanks of the enemy (which needs 6-8 units of HA in total to be most effective), then the AI will be uncertain how to split its forces and you'll get a few units randomly breaking away from the main bunch to fight you. Once that happens, your HA are perfectly placed to encircle them and kill them off quickly and efficiently, before returning to repeat the process.
I find it impossible to co-ordinate more than two HA raids like this without using the pause button, but if you're able to skirmish with the enemy from all four sides, you can break up their formation in no time and end up with isolated units scattered across the entire map.
fruitfly's comments are so true. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif
this is sooo effective against a slow enemy such as the byz.
I love playing the turks and then raiding asia minor with turc horse only armies and shoot them up like this.
dragging byz inf and varangs all the way across map and then charging them with HA from all sides is the most fun of the game.
scattering them across the map and wearing them out just shows the full tactical potential of the HAs.
now if only I can find a way to kill of those annoying treb archers easily with all HA army......
HopAlongBunny
03-12-2004, 07:54
The "pause" button is your friend when using HA's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I am not one of the masters, so I pause and re-evaluate the situation constantly.
A tactic that helps with management is to concentrate on only needing to run one grp of HA's at a time. If you have 3 gprs of 2; commit one grp until until things get a lil too dangerous then run them away; get next grp (on other flank) and commit it...etc. The ones you run off can be brought back quickly and easily...unless they are being chased.
I'm hopeless at using horse archers. In my current Almohad campaign I use one unit of faris in my standard armies, primarily to experiment with them. I keep them out of reach of archers and light cavalry but sadly the heavy cavalry usually ends up killing them. For example, last night I was fighting 4,000 English troops with my 700 Almohads. My main fear were the 2 units of late era royal knights in the first lineup. My faris targetted the unit of royal knights that were sent ahead to scout the woods. After receiving several volleys the knights charged the faris who skirmished away. When I saw them approaching the map edge I envisioned the usual sandwich with the faris as the filling, so I quickly took them off skirmish and doubleclicked in a different direction. The response of the faris commander was "Allright boys, we've received new orders. We are to proceed over there with all haste, but hold your horses. As the unit leader and the bearer of the flag, I should go first so let me through and into position. Ok, ready to mo...." ....the royal knights then smashed into them slaughtering all but one of them. I hope that one wasn't the leader.
Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Mar. 12 2004,04:17)]For example, last night I was fighting 4,000 English troops with my 700 Almohads. My main fear were the 2 units of late era royal knights in the first lineup.
Seems to me that you never really had a chance in this battle anyway, but it's an interesting problem you present. The Faris are valuable units, and in this instance should be handled exactly like ordinary HAs since a melee against the Royal Knights was plainly suicidal. If the knights are heavily armored, then ordinary bows will not be very effective against them.
How were you going to defend against the Royal Knights with or without the Faris? The best way to defend against heavy calvary is with a combination of crossbows or arbalesters and spears, pikes, or halbediers. Without these units, elite late age heavy calvary will just crush you. I would have withdrawn my Faris behind the spear wall. If you didn't have a spear wall, you would have lost anyway.
I have a lot of experience with the Almohad. Their units are great in the Early age, okay in the High age, and suck in the late age. The only chance the Almohads have against a late age English army is in a desert battle or with superiority of numbers. In a desert battle, there is a high probability the knights would get exhausted quickly while the Faris could keep shooting at them until they run out of ammunition. Then they become just medium calvary, ready to run down the routers or overrun exposed archers.
One of the advantages of HAs in any battle is that any enemy unit that is not calvary will get exhausted trying to engage them. So they are not at their best against other calvary, especially if they are heavily armored with shields like most late age heavy calvary.
Quote[/b] (Crash @ Mar. 12 2004,07:49)]Seems to me that you never really had a chance in this battle anyway,
Well, I did win it. Fairly easily as a matter of fact with less than 50% casualties, but the faris certainly weren't the main contributor to that victory. I was defending Northumbria from an attack from Scotland which gave me an extremely defensible battlefield.
Quote[/b] ]How were you going to defend against the Royal Knights with or without the Faris? The best way to defend against heavy calvary is with a combination of crossbows or arbalesters and spears, pikes, or halbediers.
My infantry took up defensive positions on a densely wooded hill, which put the knights at a major disadvantage and shielded my men against fire from the hordes of arbalesters and other missile units.
Quote[/b] ]One of the advantages of HAs in any battle is that any enemy unit that is not calvary will get exhausted trying to engage them. So they are not at their best against other calvary, especially if they are heavily armored with shields like most late age heavy calvary.
That makes a lot of sense. However, in this case the infantry was very well protected by arbalesters and crossbowmen, which made me hesitant to approach them. Not seeing any of my units other than the faris, the main English force waited while a unit of royal knights scouted the woods for my main force. My faris were on top of one of the tallest hills I have ever seen in MTW so I figured I might as well try to get a few of them with arrows. The faris actually managed to kill 11 out the 20 man unit which is quite good. But as soon as the knights reached the top of the hill the faris were doomed, as described. I would have thought that the faris, which are fast, should be able to stay out of reach of such a heavy unit as late era royal knights, but this is not the case. They invariably catch them in some corner and rout them. I would also think the knights would tire far quicker, but my faris are often down to "very tired" while the knights are still chasing them at full speed. My main frustration described in the previous post was that my unit reacted fatally slow to my evasive command, while skirmish mode would have got them in trouble at the map edge.
Yes, I understand. Congratulations on winning that battle, it sounds amazing.
As far as handling the HAs, we're back to the issue of micromanagement - using the pause button frequently. I never used to use the pause button until I decided to pay close attention to my use of horse archers.
Against arbalesters supported by spears, horse archers are at a great disadvantage. Arbalsesters have armor themselves, and can outrange most HAs. The HAs have one other trick up their sleeves, their mobility. If you have multiple units of them, you must coordinate their attacks by positioning them to shoot at arbalesters from multiple angles, preferably from behind and in front. This assumes, however that there is room to maneuver on the battlefield. The tactic will not work against a disciplined enemy who refuses to be drawn into chasing the HAs.
Whenever I have defeated huge Mongol armies, I have always been in a defensive position on a hill with arbalesters, crossbows, and good archers protected by spears. The key is to not get drawn into chasing the Mongol calvary, however much they try to tempt you into it.
Whenever I use horse archers, I tend to run into the same problem as Cazbol did. I think it could be ameliorated if I put my HA in deeper formations. That way the unit can turn easier. Of course, the fact that I play with huge unit size does not help.
But what are your experiences with HA formations depth?
deeper formations of roughly squares help greatly as ludens suggested.
I use wedge for maneuvering though as wedged cav seem to turn on a dime and blast through most small gaps. Also, though you get a penalty for inaccuracy, you get a lot of arrows in the air at a time so if the knights come close, the final arrow can at least deal some good damage.
pause plus using a wedge formaiton should have been enough to get you of that hole unscathed.
I would like to see more stamina on HAs too. it's ridiculous that my mamluk HAs tire sooo much faster than saharan cav. grrr. I would like HAs that have double stamina or something and also shoot on the move but that might make em OP.
Doug-Thompson
03-12-2004, 21:28
I use deep formations but also keep them loose. In close formation, the riders in the same formation seem to get in each other's way when you have a sudden change in direction. Things only get worse if you have more than one unit of HA in close formation. They can't get through each other.
The wedge is handy, but I'm not sure it can turn as fast as HA in loose formation. Also, one wedge can't run through the other.
============
When you want to break contact with the enemy, turn on "hold position" and then double-click on the spot you want to run to. The HA seem to break more cleanly. Works for me most of the time anyway.
========
The first player who figures out how faris are supposed to work should post something and let the rest of us in on the secret.
========
Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-13-2004, 02:16
The main problem that you faced is related to a game flaw:
Most Heavy Cavalry has too much speed in the original game.
If you pay close attention Early, High and Late RK have all the same speeds, despite the fact that armour, and therefore weight, keeps getting heavier. I've modded High and Late RK, as well as other heavy cav units, to reflect this. IMHO, it is the only solution for correct balance.
As for HA handling (Faris are high morale HA for all effects), and to add an aditional note to the sugestions of katank and Ludens, if you lack multitasking capabilities like some of the MP skirmishers (Sinan, Orda Khan, etc...) you better use the Pause button. Only for HA control. Remember that the AI can control, independently, ALL of it's units in ALL the map at the same time. This gives it an huge advantage, so don't be shy in using Pause until you're more familiar with HA skirmishing.
Doug-Thompson
03-13-2004, 16:17
I've used some of the suggestions on this thread in my latest game, and found that the disruption HA can cause is extremely valuable, maybe even more valuable than the casualties they inflict.
I was defending Cordoba. An allied army of Almohads and Spanish was marching toward me. I left the bulk of my army on a good hillside position near the back of the map, but put the HA as far forward as possible.
The HA caused so many casualties and scattered the Spanish so badly, the main armies never came into contact. I mishandled the HA and got most of them killed, but the Spanish had suffered so many losses they started retreating. Then the Almohads started retreating, too.
The next time, I was defending Venice (I was playing Byz, and the HA were Byz Cavalry.) Used the same approach, with HA as far forward as possible. When the curtain lifted, they were all in easy charging distance of a unit of archers on the far end of the German line. It was a massacre. They where then behind the whole German army. The wiped out a line of siege artillery then started shooting up the Germans from the rear. When the confusion was bad enough, my main army charged forward. The Germans never stood a chance.
yep, by far the biggest power is in the chaos they create. The game engine produces a very stiff penalty for fatigue and scattered units are easily enveloped and destroyed.
that's why my Turkish hordes devastated the AI byz when several of my Ghulam Bodyguards roll over scattered, tired, and heavily damaged units of byz inf.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
I love HAs. too bad I have to resort to pausing when I use more than 5-6. Wish I could be good enough to manage 16 HAs without pause http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif I'll keep dreaming...
Doug-Thompson
03-15-2004, 22:17
It seems much, much easier to ride all the way around the enemy army instead of trying to melee in front of it, where you get squeezed in between your troops and the other guy's.
Unless the opposition has a lot of hobliers, jinettes or Saharan cavalry, you're pretty much immune to attack once you're in the rear. Suppose then enemy sends 20 royal knights to chase your HA away. Then those 20 royal knights are not available for the battle that really matters.
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ Mar. 13 2004,09:17)]I left the bulk of my army on a good hillside position near the back of the map, but put the HA as far forward as possible.
Yes, this is also my standard defensive deployment whenever I have HAs available.
I figure I'll make the enemy fight their way forward to my positions through clouds of arrows from HAs. At best the enemy gives up before they can reach my main position. If I have reinforcements, I'll withdraw my used up HAs and bring on fresh units, unless my HAs are going to be needed for pursuing the routed enemy units.
If I have any fast calvary, including HAs, I'll try to have at least one of them running around the behind the enemy's main army, either taking out their siege engines/artillery or pouncing on archers or routed units. Shooting the enemy from front and back works really well sometimes...
Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Mar. 12 2004,09:21)]I would have thought that the faris, which are fast, should be able to stay out of reach of such a heavy unit as late era royal knights, but this is not the case. They invariably catch them in some corner and rout them. I would also think the knights would tire far quicker, but my faris are often down to "very tired" while the knights are still chasing them at full speed.
Faris are a "normal speed" medium cav with bows, not a fast cav like your typical HA, Sze, Alans, Steppe cav. They walk, march, run at the same speed as all but the heaviest armored knights. As for fatigue, I know that running causes fatigue, and shooting causes fatigue. I haven't verified this by actual testing but I suppose that the combination of running AND shooting would tire the Faris quicker than the same-speed cav that is chasing them.
Doug-Thompson
03-16-2004, 00:24
Quote[/b] (Crash @ Mar. 15 2004,15:50)]If I have any fast calvary, including HAs, I'll try to have at least one of them running around the behind the enemy's main army, either taking out their siege engines/artillery or pouncing on archers or routed units. Shooting the enemy from front and back works really well sometimes...
Yes, the bag of prisoners goes up enormously. That is nice. I've had several provinces fall because there were no enemy troops left to make it back to the castle.
=========
I've started raiding with these HA, going into provinces that are heavily garrisoned by militia, spears and other such vulnerable troops, killing a bunch of them and then withdrawing. There's been some amazing results.
I sent 480 Steppe Heavy Cavalry and some melee cav into a province guarded by more than 1,500 rebel infantry. The whole rebel force retreated. I was so surprised, I had a little trouble finding enough troops to garrison my new, rebellious province of Lithuania.
On another raid, I wound up conquering Valencia and killing the enemy faction's king and all his heirs, but that was done with the help and sacrifice of a lot of melee cavalry.
yep, the concept of all cav armies is very powerful.
I first tried these HA raiding tactics with an all cav army as the Turks and love it. I think that's why they are probably my favorite faction.
Now I try this with every faction I play but this works better for some than others.
I would try to use the best HA your faction can get and then some light cav and the rest powerful melee cav, preferably BG units for faction but that can get expensive.
I have managed more than 500 kills once without a single casualty.
Admittedly, it was against early era rabble of archers, peasants, and spears but that's a standard early army for the AI anyhow.
Doug-Thompson
03-16-2004, 06:59
I'm not ready to go with "all cav" armies, but I'm certainly convinced that all cav raids are a good idea IF you select your target carefully.
==================
More success tonight. A cavalry raid on a province defended by feudal men at arms and militia, backed by a few siege weapons, was completely abandoned when the raiders arrived, despite the defender being a four-star general. I pillaged 3,200 florins and then destroyed every building in the province (Burgundy) for another 2,000 florins.
5,200 florins without losing a man. I abandoned the province and the "loyalist" revolt netted the French one gunpowder unit.
Then I raided the Germans and accepted battle, despite the fact I was attacking over a bridge. He had 400 peasants at one bridge and 600 at the other, with two units of royal nights and a few Vikings and spearmen positioned where they could help out at either bridge.
Byz cavalry stood on the bridge and killed 180 peasants before they ran out of ammo. No losses. Another Byz Cav unit killed another 140 without loss before the Germans finally sent a unit of royal knights to drive them off. After a couple of unsuccessful attempts to lure the knights across the bridge, I charged back with heavy cav and the fight was on.
His peasants routed and I wound up killing about 600 of army all told, including his general and all of his 30 or so royal knights. It cost me losses of 220, but I can afford them. He can't. That province is cut off from the rest of the German empire and now stand virtually defenseless. I'll take it and occupy it after crushing the French, which I can do without German interference now.
Mr Frost
03-20-2004, 04:37
There is precious little that an army of Boyars cannot destroy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif
Quote[/b] (Pox @ Mar. 16 2004,00:58)]
Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Mar. 12 2004,09:21)]I would have thought that the faris, which are fast, should be able to stay out of reach of such a heavy unit as late era royal knights, but this is not the case. They invariably catch them in some corner and rout them. I would also think the knights would tire far quicker, but my faris are often down to "very tired" while the knights are still chasing them at full speed.
Faris are a "normal speed" medium cav with bows, not a fast cav like your typical HA, Sze, Alans, Steppe cav. They walk, march, run at the same speed as all but the heaviest armored knights. As for fatigue, I know that running causes fatigue, and shooting causes fatigue. I haven't verified this by actual testing but I suppose that the combination of running AND shooting would tire the Faris quicker than the same-speed cav that is chasing them.
Any archer unit gets tired from shooting. It's normal and realistic.
yep, shooting causing fatigue is realistic but like Mr. Frost says, little can stand vs. boyars, esp. in early.
even if they are tired from shooting and running around with all that armor, they can still destroy virtually any opposing unit.
In my early Nov campaign, one of my boyar princes' units started at V5 and killed thorugh several armies and still have about half strength
Once you can afford 16 units of those bad boys in early, you can probably take over the whole map
They are quite a bit overpowered in early at least in being able to shoot and match heavy cav in melee. My boyar destroyed a unit of kats in melee at equal valour crazy
"even if they are tired from shooting and running around with all that armor, they can still destroy virtually any opposing unit."
I was going to say try against kats but then I saw the end of your posts. Still, if the charge bonus is corectly secured by both units, I still bet on kats.
the charge/attack/defence of the units are:
4/3/5 for boyars
8/3/5 for kats
thus, it seems like the kats will win if both get charge bonus.
the thing though is that the boyars have a small shield which they can use in melee so now they have a far better chance of survival.
hence, it's not even a fluke.
now that I secured Const, I'm looking forward to 16 silver boyars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Doug-Thompson
03-22-2004, 16:52
Re: HA that can melee.
Boyars are great, one of the best all-round cavalry units.
Faris cost too much, both to create and for upkeep.
Byzantine Cavalry are a good unit. Steppe Heavy Cavalry are good too and significantly cheaper in upkeep costs comparted to Byz Cavalry.
Mameluke Cavalry are at least better that regular HA.
As for the others, haven't really formed an opinion.
szekelys are great. fastest speed and otherwise same stats as faris with low build reqs.
also, don't forget jinettes. I dunno about being HA exactly but they are missile cav and are one of my best reasons for playing catholic and securing Iberia.
Doug-Thompson
03-23-2004, 03:24
We keep talking about speed and weapons, etc., and are forgetting what may be the most important thing with HA:
Discipline.
Turcomon horse, for instance, will ignore your orders to come back sometimes. That's not good for a unit that relies on hit and run to survive.
that's kinda true and I certainly would like to add to that about the pathetic discipline of mtd. x-bows who wants to go into melee ASAP though they would get slaughtered in melee vs. the RKs they were taking potshots at.
Byzantine Cavalry is expensive, very expensive.
Quote[/b] (Nowake @ Mar. 20 2004,04:58)]
Quote[/b] (Pox @ Mar. 16 2004,00:58)]Faris are a "normal speed" medium cav with bows, not a fast cav like your typical HA, Sze, Alans, Steppe cav. They walk, march, run at the same speed as all but the heaviest armored knights. As for fatigue, I know that running causes fatigue, and shooting causes fatigue. I haven't verified this by actual testing but I suppose that the combination of running AND shooting would tire the Faris quicker than the same-speed cav that is chasing them.
Any archer unit gets tired from shooting. It's normal and realistic.
It is true that using the bow tires the horse archers, just like running does. The same was true in real life. However, in real life the firing tired the rider while the running tired the horse. In MTW they're treated like one and thus tire faster than they should.
Because the individual unit is treated as an entity, no matter the components. You don't see men shot down from their horses, do you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Doug-Thompson
03-23-2004, 17:13
Quote[/b] (Nowake @ Mar. 23 2004,03:02)]Byzantine Cavalry is expensive, very expensive.
True, but at least you get something for your money.
Also, I've found that the "poor relation" Byz lancer is not a bad companion to the Byz cavalryman. It's cheap, at least compared to kats and other heavy Byz melee cavalry. It doesn't tire as fast as more expensive cavalry and doesn't roast in its own armor in the desert. Lancers do a decent job of mowing down units that have been disorganized by Byz cavalry archery. Finally, the building requirements to make them are low and quite similar to the build for Byz Cavalry.
Lancers are one of the best cav units in the game, at a price/efficiency rate. And, as you said, seem to never tire (perfect for desert fights.)
Doug-Thompson
03-24-2004, 00:21
This whole, long thread talks about how difficult horse archers are to control.
Well, it is hard to control a unit with morale so poor, it gets jittery every time it leaves the main body of the army to get around or behind he enemy -- the very places where HA can do the most good.
Byz cavalry’s good morale solves that.
It’s also hard to control a unit that could charge without orders, like Turcomon Horse or Szelkey.
Byz cavalry’s discipline solves that.
Most horse archers are fragile units. They’ll either die or rout at small mistakes.
Byz cavalry, though, can defend itself. A Byz cavalry unit may not win any prizefights, but it won’t dissolve on contact, either.
A tendency to charge without orders, poor morale and being fragile makes a really bad combination. ByzCav don’t have those problems, at least not to the same degree as most horse archers.
So, maybe somebody wanting to learn cavalry archers should play the Byz? Or would that teach bad habits?
playing the byz for byz cav or novgorod for boyars would form bad habits for HA use IMHO
ppl might thus get ideas that HAs can do melee and tangle well and be far more careless with them due to less micro rec compared to other HAs and thus not be able to handle the other difficult HAs.
son of spam
03-25-2004, 02:33
Turcoman horse are impetuous??? Are you serious???
They just can't seem to run away fast enough when I try to use them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Doug-Thompson
03-25-2004, 03:10
Quote[/b] (son of spam @ Mar. 24 2004,19:33)]Turcoman horse are impetuous??? Are you serious???
They just can't seem to run away fast enough when I try to use them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Unfortunately, yes. They are impetuous AND have poor morale, which is bizarre.
They hurry to get themselves into trouble, then immediately rout.
========================================
After bragging on Byz Cavalry's discipline and morale, I looked at the Faris again.
Faris also have discipline and the same good morale. They have a worse defense but a better charge. Tech requirements are the same and the Faris are slightly cheaper.
I'll have to try Faris again.
Doug-Thompson
03-26-2004, 17:51
Under the right circumstances, hitting Ctrl+W for withdrawal gives horse archers a nice, clean, fast break from the advancing enemy and lessens the micro-management burden. You stop the withdrawal by clicking a ranged attack again.
I discovered this by accident while killing 324 Polish infantry last night for the loss of 11 Faris, despite being outnumbered more than 2,000 to 320 faris plus 240 other support cavalry. I was the attacker. All units were on the board, thanks to huge unit size.
Most of the Polish casualties came from firing at them from a hill on the opposite bank, which goaded them into crossing the single bridge across the river.
Here's the right circumstances:
1. You need a clear line of retreat. (Duh). That means no units, friendly or otherwise, to block you. Also look at the lay of the land. You don't want to withdraw right into a valley or into a trapped corner, for instance. I have a very nice, gentle slope going all the way down to the river, which meant my enemy was always downhill.
2. Lots of room. (Duh, again.)
===========================
On a related note, I set up a custom battle between one unit of 80 generic Hungarian HA against 200 German feudal sergeants, using different formations and letting the computer do the fighting. The HA were put on skirmish.
Close formation worked best for sheer killing Wedge formation, however, worked better for luring and causing massive disruption to the enemy formation.
With HA in close formation, the sergeants would chase for a while, give up and re-form. They lost 95 men and the fight took place in a relatively small area. The sergeants never caught the HA.
When the HA were in wedge, however, the sergeants would keep chasing them. It seems they would get tantalizingly close to the leader on the wedge's tip, and it takes a while for a wedge to change direction. So the chase went on all over the map. The HA spent far more time turning around and running than shooting. The sergeants finally caught the HA after suffering only 23 casualties, but their formation was all strung out many times during the chase. Another unit of good melee cavalry would have routed them.
wedge get much more shots into the air though for a strong punch.
if you use a flyby HA technique of one bait and one shooter, it's better to have the shooter in wedge
Doug-Thompson
03-27-2004, 06:02
Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 26 2004,18:15)]wedge get much more shots into the air though for a strong punch.
if you use a flyby HA technique of one bait and one shooter, it's better to have the shooter in wedge
Also, the ideal is to have a target unit surrounded, but one in front and one on flank isn't bad, either.
Axeknight
03-27-2004, 10:35
Probably been said before, but I like to use HA (eg Byz Cav) to lure away the spearmen so my Byz Lancers can charge the archers. When attacking Finland as the Byz, I managed to kill about 200 and capture 200 more, with the loss of just 3 archers. This was from using Byz Lancers to sweep in, kill as many archers as they could then getting the hell outta dodge before the spearmen caught up with me. They had their spear away in the woods to protect them from my Trebizond archers and Bulgarian brigands, and the enemy archers were a very tempting target. In the end, only 2 units of my army got to melee (Byz Lancers and a unit of 40 Byz Inf that routed 100 spearmen without loss). The rest of the battle was manuveuring my Byz Lancers and skirmishing with my melee troops.
Much the same tactics can be used with HA, or in fact any light cav.
Doug-Thompson
03-30-2004, 16:04
Another random thought.
Retraining units is a good thing in general, but it seems that it's especially true with HA.
Retraining in a province with a mosque and ribalt, for instance, adds 3 to their lousy morale.
that's true.
also, adding armor is good for any missiles to last a bit longer when they run into trouble.
I found morale to be the biggest and then armor the secod best thing for HAs.
naturally it's best to surround the enemy but sometimes you don't have enough HA for this to work and hence I do HA squads of two or three with one bait doing flybys to run the enemy past my shooters where upon the enemy realizes my shooters are closer and start chasing them in which case my HA switch roles.
Doug-Thompson
04-05-2004, 23:27
Thought I'd give this dead horse another beating.
Katank was right again, when he confirmed the hunch that morale upgrades were particularly important for HA.
I can't describe the difference it makes. A mosque, a ribat and the Tripoli valor bonus have made Turcoman horse much, much more usable. I'm now creating Turcoman Horse in other provinces and shipping them to Tripoli for upgrades.
Doug-Thompson
04-08-2004, 15:56
All right. I admit to becoming obsessed with this topic.
I've started stringing out horse archers into long, apparently unwieldy lines only two ranks deep, in close order.
Keep in mind that I play with huge unit size. That means a formation 40 HA wide.
While that formation appears impossibly wide, the fact is that it allows a very quick getaway with no bumping.
Say HA are three or four ranks deep. Things start getting hairy, with multiple threats. I start to get out of there. I double-click for a quick getaway.
Well, the formation doesn't move while the leader works his way to the back of the formation, and then they all follow him. More often than not, melee starts -- which makes the problem of getting away even more difficult.
When the HA are only two ranks deep and you order them to move back and then hit wedge formation, the leader gets to the back of the formation almost instantly, The other guys fall into place right behind him. The two ends of the line are pulled themselves in.
The group unfurls back into a two-line formation almost as easily. They spread out and the leader barely has to move after turning around.
The firepower is massive with only two ranks. If one end of the line is shooting into an enemy's flank, the other end is practically shooting the target in the back.
Use wedge to move around. Use two-rank to fire.
I noticed the Faris and Byzantine Cav were mentioned, but the poor Steppe Heavy Cav were missed. Admittedly, they aren't disciplined, but otherwise they are extremely good. Better stats than both Faris and Byzantine Cav. And a -much- lower support cost. Personally, I find they are the best missile cav you can hire (until High as Turks, anyway). They have a pretty low building requirement for them as well (just need horse breeder guild and armourer, so you can build them with just a keep - plus you can get them in early). Their only downside is the fact you can only build them in 5 provinces.
Bh
Doug-Thompson
04-09-2004, 12:34
I think Steppe Heavy Cavalry were not mentioned that much because most people acknowledge that they are good. Byz Cavalry and Faris are more controversial.
Odd. I'd say that there's no question that Byz Cav and Faris are both good. Just not quite as good as the Steppe Heavy Cav.
Bh
Doug-Thompson
04-09-2004, 15:59
Steppe heavy cavalry are the best missile cavalry unit you get in a regular playable faction, except for two special units: Russian Boyars and Turkish Sipahi of the Porte.
I'd have to put Byz Cavalry above the Faris because of better melee if they get caught. Faris have a better charge, but get into trouble if their enemy doesn't break. Almohad Faris with the weapons upgrade from Spanish iron provinces do all right, though.
However, the Szekely probably take the prize as the most useful missile cav. They are available the earliest and have the lightest tech requirements of any really good horse archer type. They're impetuous and their morale is lousy, but morale can be improved by retraining once a chapter house is built. The only disadvantage is that they can only be built in three provinces, and one of those is the only province with Avar nobles.
Mamluk Horse Archers are OK once you can finally build them.
Using Jinettes takes a knack I just don't have.
Turcoman Horse need retraining in a province with a ribat ASAP. After that, they'r OK as long as their not in a melee. They can chase routers well enough.
I don't know what to think of mounted crossbowmen. Their rate of fire is far too slow for hit-and-run horse archer tactics. Maybe they should wait until some enemy armored unit is pinned in a fight, ride up behind them, get in close and fire one devastating volley into their backs.
Berber camels are an odd little unit. I like them. They're slower than others, but you sure don't have to worry about being charged by hobilars.
Generic horse archers should be replaced by something better at the first available opportunity. Their morale stinks and they rout if they're touched.
I haven't played Turcopoles enough to form an opinion.
Oleander Ardens
04-09-2004, 16:58
Very interesting discussion;
I`m playing right now as Hungary (Early, Expert)and it is simply fun..
You get almost right of the start the great all-around Szekely. With the world full of slow units it is almost a pity how easily you win http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I personally use mostly a combination of Szekely and later on some mounted Crossbowmen. My standart formation looks usually something;
MC SZ SZ MC
The Szekely skirmish and draw the enemy between the MC, which are usually positioned large on the flanks.
The MC are arranged in two rows, to get maximum firepower, while the Szekely are usually in deep formation or wedge, as they are the bait and are also used to quickly charge depleted units from when a good occasion comes...
Szekely are also fine anti-archer cavalry, as they are fast, and have a shield and can rout many archers - not all as you now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
But the Hungarians have another ace in their pocket: the Jobagy
Fast ,decent moral, for a skirmisher a good armor and a strong charge...with a shield he would be perfect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif
In combination with the HA tactics they are really nasty when three of them attack a exhausted Vangerian Guard or a Katank... Under their hail of missles more than on Emporer has died.
Three or four ranks or wedge are best. Often the enemy units still chases your Szekely when their javalins make big holes into their formations. And with their good charge they do good damage from behind, and fleeing units have it often difficult to escape http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
It`s a nice combo, try them
I used a cavalry heavy army using Hungarians with FMAA or CMAA as my only foot troops. Szekely and Steppe Heavy Cavalry actually make a good combination. Szekely engage more towards the flanks using speed. Steppe Heavy engage a little between the infantry and the Szekely. After my infantry and Avar Nobles or Chivalric Knights engage the enemy in melee, the Steppe Heavy Cavalry attacks the openings and the Szekely attacks after them or chase down routed enemies. Basically, Szekely are better pure HA while Heavy Steppe Cavalry have better versatility as they are stronger in melee.
I actually don't mind getting into an archery contest against infantry archers if my HA outnumber their archers by a lot. I put the units their archers are firing at in loose formation while keeping the rest in close for easier control. After I deal with those archers, I can keep shooting unmolested. It's most useful when using Heavy Steppe Cavalry as they lose little compared to other HA in a match against infantry archers because they have good armor.
Faris and Mamluk Horse Archers are virtually the same unit but with different tech requirements. They take around the same time to build up from scratch too. The only advantage Faris has is it has a better charge by 2 and it can dismount in castle battles.
mounted X-bows and jinettes are not at all regular HA due to AP ability.
I love their ability to thin down enemy RK ranks etc.
this is when they work.
jinette range is a bit limiting but good for throwing the volley before engaging in melee.
I find due to their capable melee, 2 jinettes can easily take a non-jedi RK esp. after I use the javs.
Mtd Xbows are tougher. when they work, they are great but most of the time they can't wait to get into melee and are promptly slaughtered by everything and anything except maybe peasants and vanilla archers.
Anyone try Early Novgorod, blaze path to Const. and build up army of 16 boyars?
I recommend everyone try it. equivalent fire power of almost 11 archers and the charge of the remnants will rout everything.
in early, this is almost impossible to counter.
I've also mixed in dismounted Druzhina and Avar nobles for some melee power. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Doug-Thompson
04-10-2004, 00:44
Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ April 09 2004,10:58)]... But the Hungarians have another ace in their pocket: the Jobagy
Fast ,decent morale, for a skirmisher a good armor and a strong charge...with a shield he would be perfect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif
In combination with the HA tactics they are really nasty when three of them attack a exhausted Vangerian Guard or a Katank... Under their hail of missles more than one Emporer has died.
Three or four ranks or wedge are best. Often the enemy units still chases your Szekely when their javalins make big holes into their formations. And with their good charge they do good damage from behind, and fleeing units have it often difficult to escape http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Using horse archers to lure armored units into a crossbow and javelin trap. That's one I haven't heard of before. Sounds wickedly fun, especially on impetuous knights.
Javelinmen are well armored against arrows and good against armored targets. Horse archers are vulnerable to arrows and not-so-hot against armored targets.
Oleander Ardens and andrewt's comments bring back up something important: What at the best units to use in combos with HA?
Quote[/b] ]I actually don't mind getting into an archery contest against infantry archers if my HA outnumber their archers by a lot. I put the units their archers are firing at in loose formation while keeping the rest in close for easier control.
"If my HA outnumber" them seems to be a key quote there.
Katank, you've mentioned from the beginning of this thread that mounted Xbows are difficult to keep out of trouble. They just seem like they're more trouble than they are worth to me. I know they can decimate an armored target under the right circumstances, but getting into those right circumstances seem difficult.
so true. my rants about Mtd. X-bows from time immemorial.
anyhow, when using them, make some liberal use of the pause key.
they also function differently from pure HA for me.
I would skirmish with them to lure knights at the start keeping many eyes upon the mtd. x-bows.
once the knights engage my spears, I use mtd. x-bows to hit them form the rear using the bolts much like using underpowered javs.
note: mtd. x-bows are available earlier than regular x-bows. hence, AP missile ability can be valuable.
then again, I can use them for chasing routers later.
hence, I get an underpowered jav or bolt unit + underpowered light cav.
I save more space for other units
hence, I would sometimes opt for the jack of all trades mtd. x-bow.
BTW, low build reqs also help this unit make it onto my list.
I tend to early rush and these help counter enemy RKs which could decimate my army early on.
Doug-Thompson
04-10-2004, 03:27
Quote[/b] (andrewt @ April 09 2004,16:44)]I used a cavalry heavy army using Hungarians with FMAA or CMAA as my only foot troops. Szekely and Steppe Heavy Cavalry actually make a good combination. Szekely engage more towards the flanks using speed. Steppe Heavy engage a little between the infantry and the Szekely. After my infantry and Avar Nobles or Chivalric Knights engage the enemy in melee, the Steppe Heavy Cavalry attacks the openings and the Szekely attacks after them or chase down routed enemies. Basically, Szekely are better pure HA while Heavy Steppe Cavalry have better versatility as they are stronger in melee.
Spear-killing infantry, pure HA and a flexible, versatile "hinge" unit in between. OK. I get it now.
That's why I love Steppe Heavy Cavalry. If my HA outnumber their archers, I could shoot it out with them and win. If I don't, I try to get my CMAA or FMAA units to engage their spears, other swordsmen and heavy cavalry ASAP and just charge the archers using the Steppe Heavy Cavalry. Against archer heavy armies, my Steppe Heavy Cavalry sometimes never even fire arrows at all.
Oleander Ardens
04-10-2004, 11:55
True, same with me...Heavy Steppe cavalry is able to win archerduels against most footarchers when they outnumber them...
It too use them that way when the enemy Archers are wellguarded and few. It saves you usually more than it costs you, as you can afterwards wear them down.
Sometimes, against pure infantry, or infantry with little support it is nice to have one or two good skirmisher foot archers ( TF or TA with shield and decent armor) with you.
They win almost all archer duels, and loose fewer man than any Archers on horseback. Engage with them first, than with your HSC. That way you minimalize your losses.
Infantry won`t chatch them, and your superior cavalry protects them against the enemy cavalry, so if you see that you get attacked withdraw them quickly. Very often you get a good chance to hit the engaging cavalry in the flanks with your HSC or Avar Nobles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Looks usually that way: HSC TF TF HSC
AN AN
This formation is of course no dogma, it just gives you a great chance of victory against enemys with a good deal of archers, strong infantry and little cavalry..
The secret of the combination HA etc./Jobagy is to exhaust the enemmy, to split him up, to wear him down, while your Jobagys rest tranquilly in a good defensive position or a hill. You can combine them with one or two units of strong defensive infantry or expandable cheap spearman, to tie the enemy up, to hit them from the flanks and the rear
Their javalins and speed makes them devastating against all slow wearing armor. High valour ones make good use of the 240 javalins, and I have seen full units of Vangerian Guards, SAP and so on falling like flies after three units of Jobogys hit them from three sides with a hail of black missles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
sweet, really? I never made much good use of the jobbagies. I only see the AI pump them out by handfuls and I run them over easily with steppe cav. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
will give them another try though. any particulars why jobbagy vs. other javs? lower buuild reqs anything else?
Oleander Ardens
04-10-2004, 21:08
Why Jobbagy?
Lowest possible build requi., if you can train peasants as Hungarian you can train Jobbagies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Best charge (4)
Weakest attack (-1)
Standard defense (0 or 1?)
Best Armor (2)
Low-Standard moral 0
No shield
Their good charge comes in very handy to finish of the hard-hit, exhausted enemy. They don`t as fast as their Slav counterparts as they have decent morale, which is good when one of them gets in trouble...
The best thing about this combo is the fact that the jobbagies usually get many and precious kills and die seldomly, as you use them to finish of the enemy. Plus they can chase down most foot. That way they gain pretty fast valor, which makes them and their javelins deadlier http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I use them even late in the game, often as reenforcments, retrained in Hungary. Golden high valor jobbagies are really a nice backup to eliminate isolated elite unis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Hope you will make of them better use than the AI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
good reasons, I guess I'll check them out.
I remember in the Hungarian PBM game someone was spamming jobbagies all over the place.
so jobbagy + szeks=victory? certainly will give it a try
byz beware of hungarian horde descending upon Const http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Oleander Ardens
04-11-2004, 17:05
Yes Szekely + Jobbagy = victory....if the Byz has no hoards of wellprotected high-valor Treb archers and a 9-Star general.
If he uses them carefully he is very very hard to defeat until you don´t use woods and bad weather as a natural archerprotection http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Doug-Thompson
04-12-2004, 20:25
Oleander Ardens' Hungarian combo has made a convert out of me -- in a Muslim sort of way.
Consider a Muslim player's point of view. A typical Crusader army is a hard core of armored units unique to Crusades, surrounded by a bunch of fanatics, militia and other unarmored soldiers.
Kill off the armored core with javelins, and the rest can be massacred by horse archers.
Almohads are the only Muslim faction with Murabitin infantry for javelins, though. They also need some help for their Almohad Urban Militia and desert archers by mid-game. After reading these posts, I started an Almohad campaign. I kept a AUM/DA core but added more javelin troops and faris.
I've had a dozen mid-game battles with the Germans, and their commanding general has either been killed or captured every time. Most have been massacres. I attacked a Crusade across a bridge in the dead of winter while outnumbered, winning the battle and inflicting far more casualties than I suffered.
In one battle, a formation of 72 Teutonic knights charged 80 faris. Normally, I'd have been toast, but a unit of Murabins was close by. Every other cavalry unit I had, and some nearby infantry, came rushing. Normally they would have been too late.
Instead, the Teutonic knights were reduced to 12 men before they got away. They scored a lot of kills first, but nobody on my side routed and I can replace my losses. The Germans are stretched to the limit.
Oleander Ardens
04-13-2004, 16:54
Nice to hear that something else has to success with such combinations http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
My increased use of Javalinunits was the result of some games with the Irish, where I learned to know both the power of them the micro needed.
Was also always a great fan of Jinette, especially when combined with HA. Not all have them so I switched to HA-infantry skirmisher .The infantry skirmishers with javelins are very cheap, so I gave them a try... and now I absolutly love them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
nice
to see it working for you guys. too bad yesterday my Hungarian jobbagy + HA force got massacred by byz barneys though.
grrr.
I won the battle by running out the timer but they routed all my jobbagies
My HAs stayed alive and scored some good kills but my jobbagies couldn't seem to hold off the byz inf and varangs or the katanks steamrolling over
what tactics do you guys use? HA screen?
Doug-Thompson
04-13-2004, 21:54
I should let the Hungarian specialist answer that one. I'm not to the point where I can use an all-missile army yet.
I keep a core army of three Almohad Urban Militia, three desert archers, two javelinmen, a couple of ghazis, four horse archers and two melee cav.
Basically, I use the javelinmen as knight assassins. I started by keeping them in a two-rank line right behind the infantry line.
Later, I started luring knights into traps. I'd leave a wide distance between the main armies and send faris forward to shoot up something vulnerable. Some knights would charge, the faris would flee back towards the javelinmen. The faris would turn around, get charged, and the javelinmen would run forward and start shooting while another melee cav finished the job.
Lately, by pure luck, I discovered that the enemy has to plug his line with some lousy unit if your faris can succeed in luring away and/or shooting to pieces a couple of decent spear units. Again, I'd leave a wide gap between main armies and send faris to either end of the enemy line to lure away units. When the enemy units were either far enough away from the real battle or shot to pieces, I'd have the faris ride back to the real fight and charge some unprotected archers.
Meanwhile, I'd have a high-valor AUM charge the weak link in the enemy line, with the javelinmen behind them but holding fire. I'd also pour in as many arrows as possible.
One of two things will happen. Either the enemy will rush some knights over to prevent a rout, or there will be a rout. Either your javelinmen have some knights come to them, or they have a nice hole to run through. Then they can shoot some deserving armored unit in the back.
===============
I know the Hungarian battle being described is an early rush attack, but I can't emphasize enough the value of good morale with javelinmen -- something we noticed before on horse archers, katank. Mosque and ribat morale boosters are great.
A decent javelin attack takes a fair amount of nerve, even though javelinmen aren't nearly so helpless in melee as archers.
yeah, so true.
I tried in my Hungarian battle to do this without even spears and just unupgraded jobbaggies and HAs.
My HAs were fine and managed to do well but I had nothing that could stop the byz from bowling over my jobbagies.
my two princely RKs were massacred and they only escaped with their lifes.
darn katanks and varang ruined my day. same with the barney circus.
I was able to hold onto const. though.
with more HA hide and seek + shoot them up, I managed to eventually defeat the byz but it took such as long time
besides, jobbaggy and szeks didn't work for me.
the szeks did, just not the combo. maybe a spear wall would help?
Doug-Thompson
04-13-2004, 22:49
Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ April 10 2004,05:55)]The secret of the combination HA etc./Jobagy is to exhaust the enemmy, to split him up, to wear him down, while your Jobagys rest tranquilly in a good defensive position or a hill. You can combine them with one or two units of strong defensive infantry or expandable cheap spearman, to tie the enemy up, to hit them from the flanks and the rear
Their javalins and speed makes them devastating against all slow wearing armor. High valour ones make good use of the 240 javalins, and I have seen full units of Vangerian Guards, SAP and so on falling like flies after three units of Jobogys hit them from three sides with a hail of black missles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
Sounds like the Szekely and mounted crossbowmen do the heavy lifting and the javelin guys finish off the Byz.
It also sounds like Oleander Ardens gets some experience and valor into his javelin troops before taking on tough Byz units. Perhaps the rebel provinces around Hungary are used as a training ground before trying this?
I'm sticking with combined arms for now.
lancer63
04-13-2004, 23:10
I'm already in a very late Turkish campaing and had to crush the once proud Hungarian kingdom. Noticed that those low and annoying jobbaggy dogs were shishkabbabing my elite JHIs. So, I send in my Turcoman horsies and they begin their archer mode against the javelinmen, the enemy advances since they are short range, stop aim their javs and when about to release my turcomen shift from skirmish to engage at will and charge the infidel dogs. The javs try to reach the safety of their lines but it's too late the fire of wrath burns fiecely in the hearts of my men and even the cruel arrows of the cowardly Zsletzkys can keep them from taking vengeance upon the jobbaggys.
By the time Hungarian heavies arrive my janissaries are waiting and grinning and that grin conveys the cold happiness of death upon the infidels. The Hungarians are no more in my Turkish campaing. They were good, but not good enough. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Doug-Thompson
04-13-2004, 23:19
Sorry for the multiple posts, but lancer63's story just reminded me of something very important.
If you order your HA to attack something, they go from skirmish or hold position (or whatever you had them on) to engage at will, automatically.
When the fight ends and you want to use them as HA again, you have to remember to change them back. I can't believe I never mentioned this before. Surely somebody has.
Switching on "engage at will" rather than clicking a charge is a nice trick, lancer63.
Oleander Ardens
04-14-2004, 11:56
Too bad it doesn`t work with you Katank, but perhaps we can clear the situation up.
When I use Szekely + Jobbagy I first hide/secure the Jobbagys. They are no match against fresh Byz infantry/ Var Guards/ Katanks so they rest and wait in a wood far away the enemy lines...
Forget the usual battleline thinking, all the map is your hunting-ground, there are no positions to loose or to gain.
So you spread out your Szekely and engage the enemy where he is weak hitting the fastest/lightest/missle units first when you get the opportunity. I usually keep some as backup away from the enemy. This makes micro more easy and enables
you to "replace" your tired HA/Szekely to keep the pressure on the enemy...
Until one/two fine slow powerful units aren´t isolated it is a pure "Szekely against all the Byz army" match. While the enemy tires, while his mobile arm and his missle arm gets eaten away your Jobbagies rest.
Their time comes when the Byz is almost entirely composed of exhausted, slow and yet very powerful units which could still turn the tide and inflict heavy casualities against your RK/HA/Szekely.
Now I use one/two Szekely to draw some units to the Jobbagys. In this stage your RK join now the Jobbagies and togheter surround and finish the enemy off. The Szekely gets set on Skirmish, while the Jobbagies throw their javelins against the enemy. A single cheap/strong spearmenunit can help you greatly, especially if you don`t have much experience with jav-units.
If the spear is cheap simply throw, if it is valuable than throw into the back. The RK can act as a improvised anti-Katank unit. With good timing you can hit them, often in the flanks/rear before they roll over your Jobbagies. Standing tired Katanks take a good while to kill RK, time which can use by hitting them with javs from behind or the flanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
In the meantime let the rest of the Szekely skirmish, thus keeping the enemy running and outspread.
Var guards are dealed with in almost the same way. A Szekely/Jobbagy draws the enemy while the rest hits them from the flanks/rear. Hitting them from behind is possible as they stop and turn to attack another unit.
They are almost always exhausted and badly reduced when the final charge from all side is ordered..
Let a Szekely destroy them once they flee and walk towards the next victims...
Yes this strat requires time and concentration; Make, especially while experimenting good use of the "p" and keep an eye on the minimap.
But the sight of mighty Byz/HRE armys slowly wearing down, and finished with little losses by cheap third-class units is unique and rewarding http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
BTW: Yes valor is also key. I tend to slowly build them up, and keep a good eye on them just like with HA. Depleted high valor Jobbagies fuse only with high valor counterparts and get armor/weapon retraining in calm periods.
Hope it helps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Doug-Thompson
04-17-2004, 03:09
I'm never going to get off this thread.
Ctrl+right click, as we all know, changes the direction the unit's facing.
That's useful when you have a long line of horse archers and some unit is getting close to one end. You can simply change facing and buy yourself enough time for another volley or two. Not only that, but your HA are now flanking the advancing unit.
On javelins, I've started switching off "fire at will" as well as changing from "skirmish" to "hold position." It seems to help in lining up the shots when you choose the moment of the throw yourself and get as close as possible.
Oleander Ardens
04-17-2004, 13:04
Yes, changing the direction of the facing can help if you see that the enemy charges a unit nearby.
I too switch the jav to "hold position" and turn "engage at will of". Javelins are black gold and must get used with care. To achieve the best you have to get full control over the unit.
Sometimes very stupid things happen when you forget to disable fire at will. I did once loose a heir of mine thanks to friendly fire from Kerns http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
BTW Yesterday I had I great day against the Saxons, playing with the Irish. Outnumbered against a vast Saxon army with six full units of Hus plus some smaller ones, 8+ armored spearmen, many many Fryds and Roundshield, Archers...but no cav The odds: 4:1
The Saxons waited on a ideal position on a giant Hill; Snowstorms and thick fog created a great atmosphere and the ideal cover for my high-valor silver Kerns.
I let first spend the enemy Archers spend their arrows on a cheap spearunit, than it was the turn of the Kerns and Dartmen (5+3). Keeping my main Army with the Gallows (4) and Kerns away I did only micro two/three Kerns at once.
After spending all my missiles almost all Hus were reduced to a third of their former strengh, some Armored Spear heavily hit. The enemy general lay dead on the battlefield. Than my fresher men charged eliminating first the isolated once, than the rest of the enemy. I was a great slaughter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
nice tips
I'm afraid I still need to work on my jav units.
I do need to tire them out more.
so morale is also important for javs?
I tried again and got better results, actually killing most of their army.
too bad I had significant damage to my jobbagies though.
However, I had destroyed the cream of the byz crop of the emperor's BG and his prince's as well as the unit of Varangs and a couple of byz inf.
How much damage to your jobbaggies do you experience?
This time I used a unit of spears and helped save some javs.
Nice cheap and effective way of dealing with the enemy. Losses were similar but definitely cost effective for me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Oleander Ardens
04-17-2004, 20:14
This strat is not easy, as you need considerable micro and concentration and a good deal of training.
But your more than just on the right track, I see http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Morale is important for most Jav as they have usually a very low one.
Kern, Dartmen, Bonnachts, Slav javs and Jobbagys all have just 0 morale. Spanish jav have 2, Murabitin 4 and Almugh 8-3= 5.
Training Javs up is a good idea as their aim gains more from it than archers. Plus high valor javs can mess the enemy AI up, so that they sometimes don`t know what to do...other than to die.
Valor eneables them also to finish their job quickly, like charging in from behind after having spend their javelins..
The decision Armor or weapon upgrades depends largely on the type of the Jav, with armor being usually initially better.
The use of one /two cheap spears is surly clever, especially against those Katanks, although I don`t always have them with me. No risk no fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
How much damage can Javs do? Froggie says 7 per volley from behind against high-armor targets. I can`t put it down in a number but I remember how I got 14 standing Joms (in gold 150) in one volly, sniping from behind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Pratically one volley and the price of the throwing Kerns (125) was paid by the enemy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
that's sweet.
cost effective against most expensive units (usually high armor) if used with spear protection
it seems armor is always better than weapons for missiles
but morale is even more important for HAs and javs if I'm not mistaken.
Oleander Ardens
04-18-2004, 11:11
True, it is very cost-effective, as cheap units can kill with ease high quality ones...
Armor is better for missiles, but weapon upgrades are handy to finish the job, charging from the flanks and behind.
But yes units like Kerns cry for armor upgrades http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Morale upgrades are for most javs a must as they easily panic and rout when things don`t go well. This is especially important against this 9-Star Byz generals were the enemy is hard to break http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
High valor ones do often not even need spears when facing the enemy, as they mess the AI up, as he often refuses to attack them. But one or two spears come always handy as target for enemy archers and cavalry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Doug-Thompson
04-19-2004, 07:02
Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ April 17 2004,14:14)]Morale is important for most Jav as they have usually a very low one.
Kern, Dartmen, Bonnachts, Slav javs and Jobbagys all have just 0 morale. Spanish jav have 2, Murabitin 4 and Almugh 8-3= 5.
I've about decided that, once somebody leans how to use javelins, the Almohads are ridiculously easy. Unlike other javelinmen, Murabitins have the stomach for a fight from the get-go with a morale of 4.
There's nothing unarmored that Almohad Urban Militia and Desert Archers can't handle. Once you know how to use them, there's few armored units Murabitins can't handle. Add some camels from Egypt, and not even Crusader knights are much of a problem, at least in the desert.
Throw in the power of Jihads ....
Doug-Thompson
04-21-2004, 00:22
Perhaps this thread needs to be renamed, "Teach me to use javelins."
Using more and more javelins taught me another lesson -- they are great pursuit troops. They are as fast as desert archers and have much better melee, or at least Murabitins do.
Last night, a bunch of Almohad Urban Militia routed some feudal sergeants but had to break off pursuit. Murabitins were available to take up the chase. I don't think a single sergeant got away.
Check unit speeds. All the javelinmen are fast, even jobaggy.
how about teach me how to use missile troops? nice and inclusive.
naptha, anyone?
Doug-Thompson
04-21-2004, 04:35
Just had a test battle where 120 Muwahid spears and 120 Murabitin javelins completely wiped out 200 feudal sergeants and 120 vanilla archers in a head-on, straight-up fight.
The final stats:
Muwahid spears: 96 kills, 66 prisoners, 48 losses.
Murabitin javelins: 50 kills, 10 prisoners, 5 losses, and 94 fleeing archers with the javelin men climbing on their backs when the computer stopped the battle
That leaves four enemy men unaccounted for, which I presume were sergeants killed by friendly archer fire.
I'm absolutely positive the archers would have been killed or captured by the faster Murabitins if the computer hadn't stopped the battle.
Muwahid spears never impressed me much, but I'd always used them like regular spears before. Tonight, however, they were put into a line only two ranks deep and set to "engage at will." The javelin men were also stretched out into a two-rank line right behind the spears, set to "hold formation" with "fire at will" turned off.
Having only two ranks in front really helps shorten the throw for the javelin men behind.
The enemy archers started firing from a long way off but only caused three or four casualties before the clash. Thin lines of fast units coming toward you are hard to hit with arrows, it seems. All my men get large shields, too.
The enemy archers withdrew behind the feudal sergeants, which launched a textbook spear charge from short range and in good formation. The enemy Spanish were had a very slight terrain advantage from a very small rise of ground.
My javelin men were ordered to fire only when the front rows of spears hit. This gave them a huge stationary target four or five ranks deep.
It was all over in a minute or less after the first clash of spears. Only a fraction of the javelins were used. My spears are also much better at man-to-man melee and benefited from their larger charge bonus too.
When the feudal sergeants routed, the Muwahids chased them. The javelin men, however, were ordered into melee attack upon the archers, who had moved behind the sergeants as the two lines closed. The javelin guys didn't have long to make chase. The Muwahids quickly captured what was left of the sarge unit.
Doug-Thompson
04-21-2004, 04:59
Couldn't resist making the 100th post.
Oleander Ardens
04-21-2004, 17:29
Nice use of specific units Tomphson. As I said I usually use the javs in deeper formation, for their short range, but perhaps I will give the two-rank system a try, if I use them combined with spears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I have to confess that both of your units are great. Their large shield is very worthy, something which my Kerns and Jobbagies would really love to have http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
About their speed: Yes they are also great to chase infantry down when your cav is busy, so it is always helpful to have one at hand...
BTW has anybody of you some Irish Dartmen and Almugh experiences?
Doug-Thompson
04-22-2004, 02:03
It may just be you and me, Oleander Ardens, but it's proving worthwhile to me.
After the experiment with the Muwahid and Murabitin, I tried the same thing with Slav Infantry and Jobbagy.
Slav Inf: 84 kills, 31 prisoners, 123 losses.
Jobbagy: 87 kills, 1 prisoner 26 losses.
Total: 171 kills, 32 prisoners, 149 losses
The Slavs were hot on the heels of the 41 feudal sergeants who were left. The Jobbagy had just hit the archers and there were 94 archers left, running away. Once again, I'm confident my faster units would have bagged the whole bunch if the computer hadn't resigned when his units were routed but still well within the map.
I should also mention that I botched the initial attack by the jobbagy's, having the Slavs selected when I thought I was throwing javelins. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Still, it was a highly respectable performance by a couple of fort-level units against keep-level sergeants.
Also, Slav warriors can't be put into a two-rank formation, apparently. The best I could get was three, with a few left over in a fourth.
I'm going to try this with woodsmen next.
Doug-Thompson
04-22-2004, 03:00
Whoa. 120 woodsmen took out 200 feudal sergeants with Slav Javelin help.
(I should have been experimenting with normal unit size. I play on the huge setting. Also, I think my kooky little battles may show the worthlessness of vanilla archers more than the effectiveness of javelins.)
The Slav Javelinmen had to join the melee after throwing all their missiles, which kept the wavering woodsmen from routing. Had to change the javelin guys from "hold formation" to "engage at will" for melee. Here's the results:
Woodsmen: 128 kills, 15 prisoners, 83 losses.
Slav Javs: 120 kills, 7 prisoners, 59 losses.
Total: 248 kills, 22 prisoners, 144 losses.
The woodsmen gained 2 valor and the Slav Javs 1, by the way. (I couldn't test woodsmen and jobbagy, as I intended. Woodsmen weren't available on the selection screen for Hungarians.)
Note the small bag of prisoners. The woodsmen have normal speed. The javs are fast, but have little melee power. The caught up to the remaining 6 sarges, but only captured one and lost 2 in the chase. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
The battle ended with quite a few enemy archers left, but I forgot to write that number down. It must have been about 44, though, judging from the figures I kept.
Quote[/b] ]It may just be you and me, Oleander Ardens, but it's proving worthwhile to me.
well, interesting to me too. count me in http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] ]worthlessness of vanilla archers more than the effectiveness of javelins
I really think so too. javs really shine vs. armoured units and vanilla archers just stink. funny how you can run spears up to them in loose and then maul them.
massed and protected by spear wall under human control though, they become deadly.
anyone tried pure missile with javs, HAs, archers, napthas? doable as byz I suppose.
Oleander Ardens
04-22-2004, 13:24
Interesting Tests http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif
Seems to be in the nature of things that the second combo could not be as successful as the first one, as the Woodsmen die too fast to pin them down..
Good to see you on board Katank http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
About a pure missle army: I'm right now thinking about a new combo. Almughavar + Desertarcher + Jenittes
I will make the Almughavars buildable in same spanish regions and try this combo out. Seems to be a very promising one, with a very unique jav unit.
Imagine the Desertarchers positioned in front of the Almughavars, able to win most ranged duels thanks to it's stats and to the sheer number in which they are used by you. The Almughavars form a flexible spearwall which protects them against cavalry.
With their javelins and high attack they can finish the enemy quickly off, although they lack defense and Armor. Armor and valor upgrades will help them to fill the defense gap, although a nice cheap standard spearunit with more armor will help the cause.
The Jenittes protect the flanks and are able to help against strong armored horse and foot.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif
Must give it a go http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I don't see how that combo could work as jinettes are catholic only and desert archers are muslim only unless bribed?
Oleander Ardens
04-22-2004, 14:14
True Katank http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif , forgot about it...
Will use a nice HA unit instead of Jenittes, as the Catholic lack good non-longbow archers
Doug-Thompson
04-22-2004, 16:21
Quote[/b] (katank @ April 21 2004,22:05)]well, interesting to me too. count me in http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Everybody's welcome, especially you, katank. You've contributed at least as much to this as anybody.
This thread's changed my tactics more than any other on the forum, with the exception of froggie's guides when i was first starting out.
I've noticed in battles that some units rout, and many get away. Other times, a unit routs and just disappears, with the survivors bagged as prisoners.
Obviously, any speed advantage by the winners makes a huge part of the difference, but some melee capability is needed to make a good pursuit unit. Even fleeing units resist being caught.
The ultimate example of this is Janissary Heavy Infantry. It's one of the reasons they're so deadly. They're fast. Any infantry unit that stands a prayer of going toe-to-toe with them is slower.
If the JHI wins, nobody gets away. If the JHI breaks first, they get away. Guess that settles the old JHI/Varg Guard argument, huh?
From now on, I'm going to try and have a fast infantry unit join in every infantry melee against a unit I really want to annihilate. I'm also going to use a lot more Murabitins, both for pursuit on their own and to help keep more Ghazi's alive.
Cavalry is still the pursuit unit of choice, but I looked up the anti-infantry melee attack stats on the "Clan Beserk" guide for fast infantry after these posts:
Sherwood foresters: 20
Hashishin: 19
JHI: 16.5
Muwahid Foot: 13
Nizari: 13
Ghazi Infantry: 10
Highland Clansmen: 7
Fanatics: 6.5
Murabitin: 5.5
Slav Warriors: 4
Turcomon Foot: 4
Bulgarian Brigands: 3.5
Jobbagy: 2
Kerns: 1
Slav Javs: 0.5
Genoese sailors: 0
Spanish Javs: 0
Desert Archers: -0.5
Note that the two at the top are very small, specialized "ambush" units.
Doug-Thompson
04-22-2004, 16:52
Once upon a time, this was a thread about Horse Archers. So, let me post similar melee figures for very fast cavalry, most of which are missile cavalry
Szekely: 11
Alan Mercs: 10.5
Spanish Jinettes: 9
Steppe Cavalry: 9
Saharan Cavalry: 6.5
Mounted Xbows: 5.5
Turcoman Horse: 4
Turcopole: 4
Horse Archers: 0.5
This shows one of the reasons Szekely are so deadly. Their high speed and high melee makes them the routed-unit chaser of choice.
[Edited P.S.]
And for the sake of completeness, here's the Viking Invasion units.
Pictish Cavalry: 7.5
Pictish Mounted Xbows: 5.5
Bezerkers: 24
Welsh Bandits: 11
Highland Clansmen: 7
Irish Dartmen: 2.5
Kerns: 1
wow, good job on the stats.
I could swear that jinettes do better than steppe cav though, from observation in my games in terms of pursuit.
Doug-Thompson
04-22-2004, 21:52
Quote[/b] (katank @ April 22 2004,15:49)]I could swear that jinettes do better than steppe cav though, from observation in my games in terms of pursuit.
Very possibly. For instance, what's the stat for endurance? Maybe Jinettes can keep running longer than Steppe Cav. I don't know what the stat is nor where to find it. That's just one possible explanation.
.
lancer63
04-22-2004, 22:39
Quote[/b] (katank @ April 22 2004,15:49)]wow, good job on the stats.
I could swear that jinettes do better than steppe cav though, from observation in my games in terms of pursuit.
That's one of the reasons I love this game Katank, you may have the very same units facing each other on the field, but subtle diferences start to play for or against them. Like the obvious v&vs of the commanders and each unit's general, but there is also weather, kind of terrain you are standing on, formations you choose and little things like if you had morale boosters, like churches, border forts, armor upgrades, in the province your units were trained in.
These seemingly insignificant details make the game virtually impredictable to me, making unit specs less terminant (thus killing the rock, scissor, paper theory) and the game more flexible and unpredictable, which means you and I and a lot more people will always come back to a new game everytime we load or start a campaing.
Not many games can brag about such loyalty from it imo. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Doug-Thompson
04-26-2004, 07:11
Oleander Ardens;
I owe you thanks.
There are few pleasures I've had in gaming as great as watching 59 out of 60 members of a Varg guard unit die to javelins thrown by Jobaggy peasants and some arrow volleys fired by Szekely.
The first big battle I had against the Byz as a Hungarian applying your tactics was such a massacre, not one man out of an all-infantry Byzantine army of 655 made it back to the fort, which fell without siege.
To be fair, I had the Byz outnumbered more than two to one. I was crushing an isolated garrison in Greece. Still, the enemy had the 60 VG and 200 Byz infantry. There were 120 urban militia. The rest were spears and peasants.
Here's the figures:
480 Jobbogy in 4 huge units: 121 kills, all of them Vargs or armored Byzantine Infantry. They also took 26 prisoners, but had 131 losses.
320 Szekely: 248 kills, 215 prisoners, 22 losses.
400 Slav infantry: 4 kills (four: that's not a typo), 11 prisoners, 9 losses.
20 royal guards lead by a prince: Literally never moved. Just stood in formation and watched.
240 Feudal Men at arms: 18 kills, 6 prisoners, 15 losses.
What happened is that the Byz and I were both marching to a hill in the middle of the battlefield and my Szekely got there first, followed shortly by my Jobbagy. I attacked with the jobbaggy rather than fall back from that excellent elevation, even though I knew I'd take some losses.
The Vargs were wiped out. The Byz infantry charged some Jobbagy -- exposing the flank of their scattered formation to the Slav infantry and men-at-arms who were running up at full speed.
The Byz infantry broke, and the chase was on. No Byz got away, thanks to the Szekely.
By the way, I found a use for skirmish. If you javs are in melee and you don't want them to be, hit "skirmish." They'll do their best to break contact but will stay in range of their target, without micromanagement or changing facing. Switch back to "hold formation" when you want them to throw again.
I was able to see the prisoners, who were ransomed back for a cool 1,057 florins: 1 Varg guard, 93 Byz infantry, 28 spears, 76 urban militia and 66 peasants.
wow, that's amazing.
BTW, what year was this? just wondering as you seem to have FMAA already.
I was thinking about how early would a feasible rush upon the byz be using the Hungarians?
this would means mostly using szeks and jobbagies.
perhaps using mercs also I'm not sure if you can count on accessing them.
I had rotten luck with getting mercs as Hungarians. empty inns. GAH
WorkNeglecter
04-26-2004, 12:15
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ April 26 2004,08:11)]By the way, I found a use for skirmish. If you javs are in melee and you don't want them to be, hit "skirmish." They'll do their best to break contact but will stay in range of their target, without micromanagement or changing facing. Switch back to "hold formation" when you want them to throw again.
good advice, I always end up with these units stuck in combat and chewed up before they can withdraw.
Oleander Ardens
04-26-2004, 12:54
Nice to see you winning with new strats..
I personally use this combo usually in a somehow different way, but it is well worth to hold the good ground when you have the ability to hold it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Seems to have been a kinda straight fight, I wonder how many missiles of your Jobbagies were used... With 1920 Javelins at your disposal, poor VG http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Innovative issue your use of the Skirmish, I never used it in such a systematic way with Jav...one never ceases to learn.
BTW I did recently alter in my projectile stats for Javs, Darts and Heavy Spear, only increasing the range, so that the AI uses them more.
Two days ago I started my first battle with the Vikings against the Irish with the new stats. Well it was almost as if I played against myself.
My small high-quality Viking army, (Karls, Husakerls, RC..) lacked firepower and speed and was heavily outnumbered by hords of Kerns, Bonnachts and Dartmen, supported by Noblemen Cavalry and Gallowglasses... Even my units fought like devils, but the lack of good cavalry and missle units forced me to chase the Kerns, and even if many of them got stamped over (AI isn't HI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) other used the time to pepper me with javs, preparing the ground for the Gallows, Bonnachts and Noblemen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif .
It was a clear defeat against great odds, and one which can be explained by the greatly increased Irish use of missles... can't wait till I can use them with the new range http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Doug-Thompson
04-26-2004, 14:09
Thanks for the kind replies. I'll get back to everybody, but it will be this evening. A fellow has to work sometimes.
i would just like to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, i found it very informative and intresting.
i`m currently trying out the Hungarians because of this thread and am conquering the world once again. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Oleander Ardens
04-26-2004, 20:07
My recent research for an "ideal" light and fast combination has given his first fruits..
As you know it all started with Szekely+Jobbagy, but now I have started to mix regulary in some fast archers suited for missle duels, like Turcoman Foot, Nizaris & Golden Horde Archers and so one..
This helps you greatly against larger amounts of well protected missle troops on foot, and helps you to reduce their light cavalry and HorseArchers.
This strategy does require fast footarchers and superior cavalry, as you have to protect your archers/javelin units from their cavalry and be able to run away from the strong infantry units...
To increase my ability to stop the enemy cavalry I use now almost always some units of fast spear units like Feudal Sergants, Muhawid Footsoldiers, Slav Warriors and so on.
They closly cooperate with my Javelin units or my Archers, how the situation it demands..
Against many cavalry units I draw them first to my lines, against many HA I use the archers and my HA to show them superior firepower... the list goes on.
An example:
My early full-stack model "Byz" army in Europe:
5 Steppe Heavy Cavalry
3 Bulgarian Bandits
4 Slav Javelinmen
2 Slav Warriors
1 Naphta
+ General's unit
Now not with every faction you get a good combination of this unit types, or you don't get them at all. In this case you have to adapt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
This combinations are not a dogma, and is only a try to give a able player a set which enables him to beat the enemy with light, mobile forces.
This guide is fine on the early period, later on others may add in polearms and perhaps some heavy cavalry. In the end it is not important what you use as long it works with you...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
meravelha
04-26-2004, 23:17
I have to add this n00b brag.
Last night was the first time I accepted combat at odds of 4:1 (knowing that it was early Egyptian rabble vs a Byzantine Prince)
The initial army I shot down /chased off with 4 units of vanilla HA and some threatening demonstrations from the rest.
I endeavour to run out two units of HA on both flanks immediately, keeping 2 HA and 2 Alans flanking the infantry core in reserve.
The purpose is to constrain the enemy's actions. Unless the enemy is strong in foot archery, he cannot stand there - he must attack immediately. He cannot sensibly attack either the flanking HA without being shot up from the rear.
That leaves him one choice - to barrel, fill tilt, down a 'funnel' of horse archers to a dead-end of Byz inf, fronted by naphtha and backed by trebs, with katanks in ultimate reserve.
Lightly armoured, poor troops don't make it to the infantry at all. The others find themselves in an unwinnable melee with HA to flanks and rear.
Sing a kyrie for the lowly vanilla HA :)
meravelha
04-27-2004, 00:46
For the real info on horse archers see
Mamluk vs Mongol military systems at
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~fisher....ss.html (http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~fisher/hst372/readings/amitai-preiss.html)
one of the many excellent articles at
www.deremilitari.org
good job both of you
anyhow, it's good to find you worked in the napthas as they are really quite effective.
sucks that they get picked off by archers easily so I suggest archers covering them.
@ardens BTW, with the Byz army you describe, do you use continual series of screens or some other deployment?
steppe heavies waay out in front skirmishing, screening brigands in turn screening shorter range missiles etc?
Doug-Thompson
04-27-2004, 05:26
Katank;
The battle was fought in 1127, at least 15 years after taking Constantinople. The men-at-arms were made there.
There are reason for the long delay. Blitzing the Byz much earlier than that is quite possible.
The strange fact is, the Hungarians seized Venice AND Constantinople without a fight and with only two short sieges. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif This was at a very leisurely pace, too. A blitz could be much more effective.
Here's what happened to me.
Turn 1: Hungarian king and as much of his army as he could bring go to Croatia.
Turn 2: They invade Venice.
Turn 3: The Italians cede Venice without a siege.
Next couple of turns: The Italians not only accept a cease fire, they accept my princess for a bride. Two turns after stripping them of Venice, the Italians are my best buddies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif I have a rich new province and a dockyard.
Next couple of turns. Leaving nothing but jobbagy's in Venice, I go back through Crotia and invade Serbia. It's a massacre. My horse archers wipe out the rebel peasants and spears while the rest of the army watches.
I'm building regular horse archers in Hungary, Slav infantry in Croatia, jobbagy's here, there and everywhere and getting nice farm upgrades, etc.
It takes a few more turns for Serbia to build up some loyalty. It's pretty rebellious. So we're somewhere around turn 10 by now.
Finally, I bite the bullet and invade Bulgaria, which has only a small garrison. I'd hoped the Byz would be fighting the Turks or Egyptians by now, but no such luck.
To my amazement, the Byz hole up in the fort and attempt no counterattack during the one-year siege. Bulgaria falls. By now, I'm making Szekely and expecting a kat attack any minute. Nothing.
I'm more determined to force a battle to try out new tactics than confident I can take Constantinople, so I invade. I outnumber the Byz but they have a sizable force.
That sizable Byz force holes up in Constantinople. Again, I'm looking at a siege that will only last a year.
The Byz never counter attack. Constantinople falls. The Byz troops in Greece are cut off.
After a couple of turns of waiting for the Byz to do something, I send a force to Moldavia to conquer it before the Poles make any attempt.
Finally, the Byz do something -- send a monk to ask me for a cease-fire. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
By now, they're at war with the Turks. My forces in Moldavia go on and conquer Wallachia.
The Byz emperor gets himself killed by Turks. His heir appears in the most built-up province he has left: Naples. He's now cut off from the rest of his empire, for he has no ships.
By now, King Lazslo I "the Fortunate" of Hungary has died.
After getting some building done, building a bunch of men at arms and upgrading four jobaggy's with silver armor and decent morale, I figure it's finally time to take Greece -- when the Byz offer me a princess.
Hey, I never turn down new blood. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
So my prince marries the girl and waits a whole year before invading one of her beleaguered country's last remaining decent provinces and killing many of its best troops. At least I had the decency to put another prince at the head of the invading army. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif
And that's where things stand.
Doug-Thompson
04-27-2004, 05:37
Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ April 26 2004,06:54)]Seems to have been a kinda straight fight, I wonder how many missiles of your Jobbagies were used... With 1920 Javelins at your disposal, poor VG http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
It was much more of a straight-up brawl that what you've described, Oleander. I don't think any of the Jobaggy's used more than half their javelins.
Thanks for the remark on skirmish.
Quote[/b] ] BTW I did recently alter in my projectile stats for Javs, Darts and Heavy Spear, only increasing the range, so that the AI uses them more.
I'm not a big fan of modding, but might have to make an exception for the sake of the AI. This is not so much a mod as a bug fix.
Quote[/b] ]Two days ago I started my first battle with the Vikings against the Irish with the new stats. Well it was almost as if I played against myself.
Javelins are nice in the regular game, but I strongly suspect they could be decisive in the Viking campaigns: Armored units are precious in that game. The non-Viking factions don't seem to be covered up with other good options, either.
As for your "New Model Army" in MTW with the steppe heavy cav, etc, it looks great. I really think one of the enormous advantages of these types of tactics with these types of troops is: If you win, nobody gets away. Fighting an army and bottling it up in siege is a victory, but fighting an army and winning the province without any siege is better.
Doug-Thompson
04-27-2004, 05:49
Katar;
Glad this is doing some good. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Quote[/b] (meravelha @ April 26 2004,17:17)]I endeavour to run out two units of HA on both flanks immediately, keeping 2 HA and 2 Alans flanking the infantry core in reserve.
The purpose is to constrain the enemy's actions. Unless the enemy is strong in foot archery, he cannot stand there - he must attack immediately. He cannot sensibly attack either the flanking HA without being shot up from the rear.
That leaves him one choice - to barrel, fill tilt, down a 'funnel' of horse archers to a dead-end of Byz inf, fronted by naphtha and backed by trebs, with katanks in ultimate reserve.
Lightly armoured, poor troops don't make it to the infantry at all. The others find themselves in an unwinnable melee with HA to flanks and rear.
Exactly. First disruption, then destruction.
He can either take losses or attack while he still has some troops left. That's the value of HA.
Great site, too.
Oleander Ardens
04-27-2004, 08:09
Quote[/b] ]
@ardens BTW, with the Byz army you describe, do you use continual series of screens or some other deployment?
steppe heavies waay out in front skirmishing, screening brigands in turn screening shorter range missiles etc?
Yup I usually deploy the Stepps in a wide line in the front of an infantry core with the BB in front of the Spears and the Javs followed by the Naphta and the General.
Now it is all up what the enemy has:
A
If he lacks firepower and is weaker in cavalry than me I will first engage with the Steppes in classical HA - style;
I wear them down, tire them and finish the isolated strong infantry with javs and Napthas as I described it some posts before with my Szekely + Jobbagy combo...
B
If he has lot's of firepower I attack with combined forces with all longrange and shortrange missiles to establish superior firepower. With 3 + 5 + 4 missile units there it is highly unlikely that the enemy can outclass me there.
I usually use spread out SlavWarriors as a bait, drawing the fire on them. In the meantime the BB and Steppes start to pepper the enemy with all they have, and when this isn't enough I use my Slav Javelinmen as archer-counter.
They can pack all their firepower in a few (~6) volleys which makes them great counterunits against all Archers, especially effective when they are elite and armored... as long they get into range before being wiped out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The Slav Warrior can hold enemy cavalry for a short time, which is enough to pepper them with your missiles and the Steppes protect you too against most enemy cavalry...
C
If he his very strong in cavalry I use the Steppes with care, trying to isolate single units or to draw them to my foot, where they get welcomed by a hail of missles with the Slav Warriors spread in three ranks/ two ranks to cover as much ground as possible while being less affected by Naptha and Javs.
It looks usually that way:
BB BB BB
W W
ST ST J J J J ST ST ST
NA G
Cavalry of all kind gets destroyed by the Javs behind the Spears, or by the Napthas, while missile cavalry is eliminated by the BB and Steps... Outflanking cavalry is stopped by my Steppes, supported by the General or Javs.
The Slav Warriors are easily replaced and rarly level up, so it isn't a pity when they suffer as long the rest lives and wins..
The only problem is the lack of a very fast cavalry unit, perhaps I should use some of them as reserve in a second stack....
Oleander Ardens
04-27-2004, 08:33
Nice site Katar, it's good to see that it's not only interesting for a few persons http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
BTW what a strange Hungarian campaign http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
as i`m playing on Early, MedMod, which means i don`t have access to jaboggy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
most of my armies have a very heavy proportion of Skerzy (nicely balanced cavalry by the way), supplimented by Transilvanian Archers and basic spearmen.
currently i`m running rings round the Egyptians, after i wiped out the Byzantines. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Oleander Ardens
04-27-2004, 19:06
Something I forgot to mention: As SlavJavlinmen and SlavWarriors are regionspecific units I made them avaiable to all catholic and orthodox factions including Byz.
This is one of the very few things I modded, as it seemed to me a logic consequence given that very similar units like AvarNobles and many others are also handled that way...
By Default they are "only" avaiable to the HRE, Novgorod, the Russians, the Polish and the Hungarian.
BTW: In Viking three factions can nicely counter armor with missile weapons. The Irish with the Kerns and Bonnachts, the Welsh with the Bandits and the Pictish with their crossbows.
The Saxons, Mercia, Irish and Vikings can use their armorpiercing good to overpowered melee and Northumbria has the cheap Woodsman.
But with what I'm supposed to face Jom Vikings and the varios Husacerls when playing the Scots?
Haven't played them yet but anybody has a good advice other than swarming them with hords of Clansmen or playing the knight game -charge, retreat, charge - with Noblemen?
Don't they have a nice jav or something armorpiercing? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
About Naphta I can only say: there is a huge step from hell to heaven and a small one back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
WorkNeglecter
04-29-2004, 11:28
The guidelines don't always work.
Last night I invaded Algeria by sea with three 0-level turcopoles against 1 7-star RK unit. I thought, even if he's an uberunit he'll never touch me. I quickly reduced him to a single horse. OK. Then he counter attacked and my turcopoles - on hold formation - didn't react to my orders. One unit got snagged and reduced from 40 to 9. The others were on skirmish; when one got chased, the other couldn't keep up to fire. The pursued turcopoles wouldn't follow my directions and fled to the beach, where they got stuck and once again chewed up. When the last unit started getting nervous I realised that it wouldn't follow orders, either, so I withdrew it.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif
The next turn I came back with a mounted x-bow and more turcopoles. 120 against 1. The same thing happened, but finally he went down.
What's my problem? wrong skirmish/hold position settings? Low-valour cavalry is slower to react or ignores orders?
Oleander Ardens
04-29-2004, 13:45
Hm could you give as some more info about your deployment? Did you attack him in the middle of the map, or only at the edge?
In Hand-to-Hand combat such ueberunits are rather unbeatable by your light mobile forces.
Seems that your Turcopoles were routing, and there was no more hope for them since the RK kept chasing them~:(
Against a single strong enemy both skirmish/hold formation should nicely work; as in the first case all should withdraw from it when the RK closes in, and in the second you can micro three units on hold rather easily.
I personally would use a wide deployment with "hold" and try to fight it out in the center of the map, avoiding to get attacked in a corner with little possibilities to evade.
Let the RK chase a single unit while the others shower it with missles as long as you can, possibly form the rear/flanks . It may be frustrating to see most of your arrows hitting everything else, but it is surly lifesaving.
If you have trouble to micro the HA use only two HA and let the other HA rest, so that you have a fresh unit in reserve when the RK is tired.
Spero che sono stato d'aiuto.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
hope I got it right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
have two in wedge to shoot while the other does flybys, drawing the RK after them.
mtd x-bows are likely better for this as the AP ability is necessary to kill the high armored RK while the rate of fire is not as important.
Doug-Thompson
04-29-2004, 15:43
Quote[/b] (WorkNeglecter @ April 29 2004,05:28)]The guidelines don't always work.
Yes, you lose control of horse archers as their morale tanks, and entry-level horse archers have lousy morale.
The importance of morale upgrades for low-level HA has been mentioned, but the dire reason for it has been glossed over. What to do if you can't get those upgrades or if your unit starts losing its nerve anyway have been skipped entirely. Sorry, WorkNeglecter.
Turcopoles have a base morale of 0. Furthermore, the hit and run nature of HA tactics means they automatically face a "constant retreat" morale penalty. So entry-level HA are usually tottering on the brink of rout. Sometimes, I've put HA into a wedge formation just to calm them down.
The "constant retreat" penalty was made much worse in your case because the Turcopoles were up against an all-cavalry unit. Therefore, the number and pace of the retreats were accelerated. That your Turcopoles were able to stand up for as long as they did and kill 95 percent of a royal knight unit is probably a tribute to your handling and to the morale boost you get from having your enemy outnumbered.
You'll lose control of any type of unit once their morale tanks. The difference here is that control is so much more important with HA than with other units.
Another culprit here is the very bad melee of Turcopoles -- even Turcoman Horse are better. According to the "Clan Beserk" unit comparison tool, Turcopoles have a melee value of less than 0. They get a mild charge bonus, but even peasants have a better charge.
The first, obvious solution is better units. That's why Hungarian players should go to Szekely and Turks to Turcoman Horse ASAP. Same thing for Byz with Byz cavalry and Faris for Muslims. ByzCav and Faris disciplined and elite status is a huge plus.
Second is morale upgrades. In your case, there is a +1 valor bonus for Turcopoles from Antioch, but you may have already been taking advantage of that. A church and a chapter house might help if you didn't have them.
Tactically, one option is to do as much damage as possible, then simply withdraw if you can do that without getting captured. Killing 19 royal knights in an uber-unit without loss is a worthwhile result. Leaving an opponent who's outnumbered more than 100 to one is disgraceful, but hanging around and being bullied by him is worse. Just don't make a habit of it, or your leader will get the "eager to retreat" vice.
More practically, what was needed here was a unit that could avoid the knights until they were whittled down, then stand up to the sole survivor for a while in melee while the Turcopoles shot arrows into the hero general's back.
As katank mentioned, mounted x-bows have armor piercing power. They also have better -- though not very good -- melee.
WorkNeglecter
04-29-2004, 16:36
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ April 29 2004,16:43)]
That your Turcopoles were able to stand up for as long as they did and kill 95 percent of a royal knight unit is probably a tribute to your handling and to the morale boost you get from having your enemy outnumbered.[/B][/I]
Actually the RK sat still until they were down to one knight. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif
You'll lose control of any type of unit once their morale tanks. The difference here is that control is so much more important with HA than with other units.
They didn't rout, this is what I've noticed before. They just don't obey directional orders. They run towards the beach. That's why I specified that it was a coastal map: I've seen plenty of skirmishing HA's run into the sea and get stuck.
Another culprit here is the very bad melee of Turcopoles
In fact I didn't want them in melee But they wanted it more than I did...
[/B][/I] obvious solution is better units [B][I]
Yes, but I'm playing Aragon and I don't have any other options, except mercs. Also, in Medmod, Antioch doesn't have a turcopole bonus. And since I had only recently conquered Syria (for the sole reason of getting a HA) and it was my only HA-producing province, I had only time to build a church. In Medmod you can't build chapterhouses.
I was hoping to build some more improvements but my lines were overstretched and I just lost Syria to the Egyptians...
I appreciate the advice. I think the problem is that skirmishing or pursued HA's act as if they're being routed, even if they are still not broken.
If the RK had become exhausted I could have outrun him, but he didn't seem to slow down, so even two HA's (one fleeing, one pursuing) couldn't tie him down.
I'll try replaying the battle on custom, although he can't have all those stars...
Doug-Thompson
04-29-2004, 19:17
Quote[/b] (WorkNeglecter @ April 29 2004,10:36)]They didn't rout, this is what I've noticed before. They just don't obey directional orders. They run towards the beach. That's why I specified that it was a coastal map: I've seen plenty of skirmishing HA's run into the sea and get stuck.
Yes, I understand. Many players think units will do whatever they're ordered to do until and unless they rout. That's not true.
For instance, suppose you order a melee unit to attack and the odds are not good. It's perfectly possible for the unit to stand there, wavering, not routing but not doing what you want, either. Eventually, it will lose all nerve and rout.
Quote[/b] ]In fact I didn't want them in melee But they wanted it more than I did...
Yes, I kept having the same problem -- unwanted melee. Then I realized that HA, like other units, will "break under the stress" if they are chased long enough or start getting cornered. They also might refuse to obey your orders, as mentioned earlier. This hesitation allows them to get caught.
Quote[/b] ]Yes, but I'm playing Aragon and I don't have any other options, except mercs. Also, in Medmod, Antioch doesn't have a turcopole bonus.
There's no helping that.
Part of the problem is that skirmishing overrides movement commands. If you try to issue orders to a unit currently "skirmishing" another unit, it will attempt them, realize the enemy is closing, and immediately revert to skirmishing. The trick in that situation is to change to "engage at will" or "hold formation". Personally, I prefer "hold formation", as on "engage at will", they do just that, and will often ignore movement commands if engaged. Of course, the downside to "hold formation" is that the unit will want to form up before moving, which often gives a chasing enemy time to catch up.
In your situation, the best trick to use is to have one of your other units charge the King. They can divert the attention from the unit it is chasing, giving it time to move away from the beach.
Bh
Doug-Thompson
04-29-2004, 19:29
Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ April 29 2004,13:20)]The trick in that situation is to change to "engage at will" or "hold formation".
There is one other option to what Bhruic mentioned, but it could rout a unit that's wavering.
Hit "withdraw." If the enemy unit is not between your unit and the line of retreat, the HA will break contact at once. Then you can get control of them before they leave the map -- if they don't rout. If the enemy's down to just one knight, it should work whatever direction your HA have to go.
Quote[/b] ]In your situation, the best trick to use is to have one of your other units charge the King. They can divert the attention from the unit it is chasing, giving it time to move away from the beach.
No argument there.
WorkNeglecter
04-30-2004, 11:13
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ April 29 2004,20:17)]Many players think units will do whatever they're ordered to do until and unless they rout. That's not true.
For instance, suppose you order a melee unit to attack and the odds are not good. It's perfectly possible for the unit to stand there, wavering, not routing but not doing what you want, either. Eventually, it will lose all nerve and rout.
Ah, this I did not know.
Thanks.
Doug-Thompson
04-30-2004, 15:26
You're welcome. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Doug-Thompson
05-05-2004, 20:03
It's baaaack.
I think the computer switches your HA off of skirmish and into "engage at will" if your unit is in danger of routing from constant retreat.
I can't prove this, but I had some very vanilla HA suddenly show up on "engage at will" while fighting the Byz.
If anybody can confirm or deny this, please advise. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif
Your unit will switch from skirmish to engage at will if it comes within melee distance of another unit.
It may at other times too. I usually have all my horse archers grouped and continue to hit the skirmish button, but this is a bad habit. It is probably better to move them clear manually then hit withdraw, or just micromanage all the way. (I would like them to retreat towards a rally point in some future {RTW} version.)
mfberg
I would like the HA to shoot on the move just like in games like Rise of Nations.
this way, they are far more useful and just setting up way points would enable your HA to disrupt the enemy and reduce microing of haivng to stop and shoot.
son of spam
05-05-2004, 23:57
Yeah, RoN style HA would be nice, but OP. Think of the Mongol horde's dominance.
you can make the ligth cav have an attack bonus vs. the HA and be slightly faster than the HA so they can be countered.
Foot archers still can keep HA at bay.
Oleander Ardens
05-06-2004, 18:38
The ability to shoot backwards while moving was one of the best things of Praetorians and a very funny thing to do against an enemy stupid enough to forget to bring some footarchers with him http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Doug-Thompson
05-11-2004, 03:45
I keep adding to this thread because I keep thinking of things that were so obvious, I should have mentioned them before.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
Why should the Egyptians build Mameluke HA while they can make Faris? Faris have better stats.
Because no province in the game has a valor bonus for Faris. A MHA with +1 valor still has a weaker charge, but it has better melee, better defense and much better morale.
Why should Almohads make Berber Camels instead of taking a province that allows Bedouin Camels? Here the case is less convincing, but Berbers with a valor bonus are as good in battle against horses (but only against horses) as Bedouins. They have much better morale, too. This is very important because a camel is too slow to get away from cavalry. If a camel unit's morale breaks, it caught.
Jinettes are better than Turcomon Horse, but again Jinettes have no province that gives them a valor advantage. Turcomon Horse do. Jinettes still have the advantage in melee, but the gap's a lot narrower.
gaijinalways
05-11-2004, 07:01
Interesting to see the ways that some players use HA. I in the past haven't used them that much (I have favored a lot of cav light armies) but I had a recent battle while defending that gave me pause. I (BYZ, early, GA) was attacked by the Alomos in Cordoba, a province I took through bribery and had quicky added some HA, spearman, and crossbows that I hurredily made. My big worry was about the number of attacking units, though our numbers were nearly equal (some 1200 plus againist the same), the Alomo were bringing in a lot more fighting units, though luckily some of them were peasants. I took a nice position up on a high hill with the majority of my troops and waited.
My HA, five units all, I split into three groups. One HA waited further down the slope, awaiting the enemy head on. The other four split into two pairs, each on a different flank up on slight rises.
As the enemy got closer, showers of arrows from the two flanking pairs of HA took down some urban milita, spearmen, and archers who approached but could not get close enough to shoot uphill at an advantage againist a pair of HA. Now the enemy deployed some units of cav, though the heavily armored Alomo units were two slow (even managed to kill some of them while waiting for more suitable targets for my arrows) and the RKs took awhile to reach me.
Later, my HAs spent a good amount of time running and trying to avoid getting engulfed by peasants (yes, those peasants are quick). Two single units of HAs spent most of the battle running from a unit of RKs and an a unit of heavy cav.
Final result; over 700 dead, I lost 100 plus men, some cav, and really had little fighting as a lot of the AI units were chasing my HA units around the board after some of the same HAs pruned the aforementioned approaching units. I also used the HAs to chase and kill routers as the routers came straight back through after the RKs got tired and the heavy cavs gave up.
Micromanagement, quite a bit, and as I had units at far flung posts, probably not for people who don't like that pause button. In multi-player it would be tough, maybe a slight edge to the attacker as he is not concerned unless his attacking units get too close to the main bulk of the defening army (which wasn't the case in this battle, except for short skirmishes as I also had the attacking general fleeing several times prior to a general rout).
HA definately rock, I have used them in the past as distractors, but I need more practice to make them a force to contend with. Putting them in pairs or larger groups helps as the combined arrow showers whittles your opponents down quicker and also gives youa chance to harass from more than one side at the same time
Doug-Thompson
05-12-2004, 02:56
Quote[/b] (gaijinalways @ May 11 2004,01:01)].... archers who approached but could not get close enough to shoot uphill at an advantage againist a pair of HA.
Now that's an idea: If you have HA and are facing foot archers, head for the nearest steep hill.
Quote[/b] ]Two single units of HAs spent most of the battle running from a unit of RKs and an a unit of heavy cav.
Which meant the royal knights and other heavy cav were effectively out of the battle. Good job.
Quote[/b] ]Micromanagement, quite a bit, and as I had units at far flung posts, probably not for people who don't like that pause button.
That's sad, but true.
Quote[/b] ]In multi-player it would be tough ...
Don't doubt that.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.