Spies

[Servius]

I remember that in STW, spies/geishas would sometimes give you a head's up about upcoming military attacks and such.

So far in MTW, I've found that spies can frame disloyal generals and have them killed and, in theory, can open the gates of enemy castles under siege. One problem though is that my spies get caught almost imediately after moving into an enemy territory.

What do you all think of spies in MTW? Can they do other things besides open castle gates and frame generals? Are they still able to tip you off to impending military actions by other powers?

[katank]

yes they do, they can help coordinate invasions with allies.
they also keep up loyalty in your provinces and lower it in enemy provinces.

it's cheesy but you can garrison even portugal with spies alone.

in VI, spies have been toned down significantly whereas in 1.1, a cross border spy rush with 20-30 spies guarantees a rebellion.

it's still useful but now in VI, it's almost strictly defensive.

you can use them to uncover secret vices of enemy generals but you can no longer do that to your own generals in VI.

[RisingSun]

Quote[/b] ]yes they do, they can help coordinate invasions with allies.

How so? Perhaps it just tells you they are planning to attack something the same way as with an enemy, tipping you off? I had no idea... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[katank]

yeah, they tip you off about planned invasions and can sometimes help with attacking a mutual enemy in which case you can either gain influence by helping out or sit back and let your allies get killed only to give you the province.
if the latter occurrs often, they get mad at you. i dunno why http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[bighairyman]

Spies with an army helps raise loyatly in a province. Also notice you about disloyal generals, and if you ahve it in almost evry province. they could tell you the "leader" of the potential rebellion. i find that really useful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[katank]

don't underestimate the framing generals part. framing disloyal generals and executing them for treason makes the loyalty of the others to shoot straight up. works best on merc generals or those from loyalist rebllions as they tend to have least loyalty.
once you start taking heads off and instill a healthy dose of fear, they suddenly all take loyalty seriously and no longer think about leading a civil war.
thus, you don't have to relieve a hgih ranking general of command nor kill him if he has low loyalty. Just execute some poor hapless grunts and then he will be Benedict Arnold no longer. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[RZST]

does executing generals count as valor points too?
ie, they become 1 star instead of just 0?

[R'as al Ghul]

Hey Ky Kiske,

yes executing generals/framing generals improves
the valour of your spies.
What works really well for me is moving spies into
besieged provinces. Almost triggers off a rebellion immediatly.
They're also good against rebellions. Telling you soon enough if there are problems with generals.
If you position them in a port province, its best to remove the border fort. This way your spy will discover more enemy agents and will improve his valour more quickly.
Don't take this for granted but my val4 spies move around the map quite freely, enemy border fort or not.
Hope this helps...
Cheers

[katank]

yes, with besieged provinces, all the buildings are neutral so border forts don't function and stuff doesn't build etc.
you can easily spark a loyalist rebellion or on the flip side prevent one by using spies.
I frequently use an attacking army of mercs lead by my best general and he just fights while national armies of elite troops stay behind in newly conquered territories or siege and a third is garrison force of rabble. the use of spies allows my conquests to go far faster. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Servius]

so, is it a common practice with you all to keep a Spy and a Priest in each of your provinces?

My understanding is that the Spy increases Loyalty but decreases Happiness. If not Happiness, I'm nearly certain there is some negative tradeoff for having Spies around. I also understand that Priests give a boost to Happiness and your religion while also reducing the effectiveness of inquisitor operations in that province.

Thus far my use of agents has been to keep 3 Emisaries for diplomatic functions and to put a priest in every inland province so I can see what's going on, with my fleet keeping an eye on all the coastal provinces. It is very rare I bother with assassins or inquisitors. I've found inquisitors, rather than improve the loyalty of my subjects, make them mad and uncomfortable and MORE prone to revolts. Now I just use them as easy targets to build the valor of my assassins, because the Pope only gets mad if you assassinate priests but not if you kill Inquisitors it seems.

[gaijinalways]

Inquisitors are good to put in your enemy's provinces and in the provinces you want to take later as they create unrest. You can also use them to try and get rid of a general, make sure his piety is low.

[gaelic cowboy]

You can also use them to open a besieged castle gate ending a seige quickly.

[R'as al Ghul]

Hey Servius1234,


Quote[/b] ]My understanding is that the Spy increases Loyalty but decreases Happiness. If not Happiness, I'm nearly certain there is some negative tradeoff for having Spies around
I guess what you mean is that if you have Assassins around the happiness drops.
Don't think this applies to the Spies, too.

[fruitfly]

Inquisitors are good for raising zeal to boost the size of your crusades, and for burning enemy generals. Grand inquisitors almost never fail at this once they've got a few valour points. Having bishops and/or using your inquisitors to drop the zeal of your own provinces will help to protect your generals from enemy inquisitors, but isn't as effective as assassinating them. Cardinals provide better protection from inquisitors than bishops do, and convert people to Catholicism faster too.

I tend to keep a bishop in every province on the map to act as a spy, and keep a spy and assassin in every one of my provinces. The spy's there to help keep loyalty high, and the assassin's job is to bump off any enemy emissaries or religious agents that come wandering through (by right-clicking on them you can see what their mission is, so the only ones to survive are princesses offering their hand in marriage to one of my princes). I tend to keep a stock of each in a coastal province so that I can quickly ship them to where they're needed in an emergency.

Once spies/assassins get to about V4-5, they can move around the map reasonably freely, which is a major advantage as the AI builds border forts everywhere. Destroying the border forts in your frontier provinces once you've got spies stationed there is a good way to boost their valour quickly as R'as al Ghul pointed out.

[katank]

nice points about the use of agents.

as for inquisitors, the frying of the populace in enemy provinces not only decreases happiness but also causes a hit on the farm income IIRC.

at any rate, treat em as a hot potato and pass em onto the nearest enemy to wreak havoc in their lands.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (fruitfly @ Mar. 09 2004,03:21)]Destroying the border forts in your frontier provinces once you've got spies stationed there is a good way to boost their valour quickly as R'as al Ghul pointed out.
An interesting point: will have to try that.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

On another note, once you have a 6-7 star spy: he will be able to fry anyone that you want to weed out from your ranks... Even princes with bad vices ;)

also, the clue to successfully raising zeal with inquisitors is to keep them busy ;) keep a unit of peasants in the target province and make inquisitors burn the leader of that unit every year until you reach the max zeal...

the inquisitor is happy doing his burning, you are happy since your zeal is going up and the population is happy since they are not the ones being burnt...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Seven.the.Hun]

spying is excellent for conquest, without it, hmm, well anyway why would you wanna be without it, its great http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
if u know yourself and not your enemy, you are not garanteed victory

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 08 2004,10:09)]yes, with besieged provinces, all the buildings are neutral so border forts don't function and stuff doesn't build etc.
Not in my experience. If I have a province with spies, assassins and a border fort and the enemy takes the province, while my forces duck in the fort, usually, in the next turn, my spies and assassins bite the dust... Unless I move them out of the besieged province.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Servius1234 @ Mar. 08 2004,10:30)]My understanding is that the Spy increases Loyalty but decreases Happiness. If not Happiness, I'm nearly certain there is some negative tradeoff for having Spies around. I also understand that Priests give a boost to Happiness and your religion while also reducing the effectiveness of inquisitor operations in that province.
Once I reach a state where I have a spy in each of my provinces, I soon after become the ruler of the happiest population on the map... I suspect, there is no negative effect on the happiness :)

[katank]

really? they don't fry the populace if trying someone? must get more throw away peasants to fry then. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 09 2004,16:30)]really? they don't fry the populace if trying someone? must get more throw away peasants to fry then. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
I came up wit this some time ago and they didn't fry anything of mine (except the peasants...) since then :) Maybe a coincidence, but I don't think so :)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Nowake]

Spies .. after VI< they can hold a provinces loyalty even if excom, appart from mainland etc. Of course, with hiogh valour.