Battle Scenario: Turks vs. Cav strong Cath, High

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi all

I'm quite new to world of MP and have little experience.
I'm well read concerning the .org and assume that I know much about stats and stuff.
The strategy map has been my main topic and field of experience so far, due to an old laggy system.
However my favourite faction have always been the Turks.
In 3D Battle I often had to pause so I'm kinda slow concerning the mighty click but can evaluate the situation quite good. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif
While skirmishing the AI to death and other tricks you can pull off with the use of terrain etc. have helped me so far I just met the bane of the Turkish army online:
The Cavalry strong Catholic army
Setting is High, 10.000 Florins
French army:
1v1 FeudalKnights Gen
4v0 PavXBows
4v4 CHManatarms
4v0 Knights Templar
3v0 FeudalKnights

on steppesinland01. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

My alternative setups:
1v2 GhulCav Gen
3v0 JanHI
3v2 Muwahid Foot
3v2 JanInf
3v2 Futtuwa
2v2 GhulCav
1v1 ArmenianHeavy

or inspired by Tempiic:
1v2 GhulCav Gen
3v3 Futtuwa
4v0 JanHI
3v2 JanInf
2v3 OttomanInf
Rest GhulCav

or inspired by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe:
4JHI
4JanInf
2Futtuwa
2Ghazi
1/3 TurcomanHorse
1/3 GhulCav

The main problem should be obvious:
The Catholics just chaaaaarge There is just no way to stop a charge of the ChivManatarms followed by the Cavalry.
The JHI at v0 breaks shortly after the Impact of the ChMAA.
All the hybrids can only flank and that needs time I don't have in this situation.
Interesting was that the OttomanInf @v3 can hold a Cav charge. But not too long.
All the Catholic Cav is superiour at v0 to mine. I even thought to bring spears but I don't think they'll work. The MuwahidFoot did fine though, but again not too long.
If you bring TurcomanHorse to skirmish away faster than on foot then just add two AlanMercs instead of two FeudalKnights on the Catholic side and you have the same problem.
I assume this is possible to win and I also think that it has only partly to do with unit choice. Is it just that I suck majorly in 3D-Battle?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Puzz3D]

I think the basic idea is to make use of the ranged unit, upgrade discount to pump up units such as Jan inf and Ottoman foot to the point where they can stand up to cmaa and fmaa, use the JHI on the flanks to stop enemy cav and use your cav to knock back the enemy pav xbows if they advance to shoot your expensive inf. You then try to kill as many enemy inf as you can with your arrows before closing for melee. I believe this idea works well at 15k, but not quite as well at 10k.

[Cebei]

That is the bad part of the MP of MTW. There is no strategy multiplayer. I would say, load your turcoman horses and fire at will. Then withdraw and next turn pump up the armenian hc to wipe up already broken army. Gah. Saracens hold up charging cavalry good by the way.

[InDaKnight]

I think the problem is that french army you play against is not 10K :)

Turkish cav though more expensive is better then their european conterparts. Try 2v Armenians and 2v Gulhcav they have higher defense then chiv knights and Armenians have an equal charge. A question I have to ask is how are you playing people with turks? Like Kanuni says "just rush with em". Their really quite formidable as a rush army using low valor jan inf(ottamans,futtuwa) as a center and high valor(2) cav to defeat the enemy flank.

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya sez... youz not get any SARACENS This is why youz be losing

Get something like:

4 JHI
4 Saracen
4 Armenian Cav or Ghul Cav
4 Whatever else youz want

Play around with the valor, of course. Why bother with Muwahids? They suck cheese Use SARACENS

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

GAH

[Dionysus9]

Saracens suck dont use them.

Use Muwahids. Lol.

Seriously.

[Cheetah]

First, play at 15k, 10k favours cav heavy armies, no surprise you have a hard time vs the french.

Second, leave home your JHI, they are no good in a 1v1.

Third, leave home your muwahids they are no good unless it is desert.

Fourth, leave home your saracens they are not good at all.

Fifth, buy strong cavalry, you dont want to loose the cav battle.

Six, avoid a head on clash for obvious reasons.

Seven, enjoy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Puzz3D]

I wouldn't advise playing at 15k. The MTW standard was 15k, but VI got +2 morale applied to all units so 10k is the equivalent. Also, cav is significantly weaker in VI as compared to MTW.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

4 v4 CMAA at 10k... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ... Sure you do not have a chance...

I do not play currently with this kind of setup; 4 JHI... it has been months since I have done that... But in your scenario, (provided you downgrad the CMAA to say v2/3), it might actually be better to have the 4 JHI you brought than the 0 or 2 I usually ends up taking... All those dead horses....

Without going in the detail of other potential set up; let's see how the battle is going on your side;


Quote[/b] ]The JHI at v0 breaks shortly after the Impact of the ChMAA.


JHI are anticavalry, and nothing else; your main line is your JI (v3 at 10k)/ Otto inf (v4 at 10k)/ futu, face the CMAA with your hybrid, not with your JHI. Put your JHI behind the main line, and watch where the ennemy cavalry is going. As you are slower, anticipate; ie, expect cavalry to come on flank, or, if inf line is not continuous, put your JHI there. The key is to put the JHI on the cavalry path.


Quote[/b] ]All the hybrids can only flank and that needs time I don't have in this situation.
Interesting was that the OttomanInf @v3 can hold a Cav charge. But not too long.


Go v4 for Ottoman Infantry... It's only 826 fl... v3 JI shall do the job too.
But keep those to face the CMAA, your JHI shall be the one taking the cav charge.


Quote[/b] ]All the Catholic Cav is superiour at v0 to mine. I even thought to bring spears but I don't think they'll work. The MuwahidFoot did fine though, but again not too long.


Forget the spears... You got to make a choice between a good cavalry, and a good infantry... If you choose to bring JHI, then you already take a bet on that match up to go well, and can forget about cavalry alltogethere; all you might need is a couple of v1 Alan; shall be good enough for flanking.
The other option is no JHI and then better cav; v2 ghulam shall do the trick, or AHC, or pumped up Alan.

It's winnable. Tougher than at 15k. But winnable.

Louis,

[Puzz3D]

You won't see 4 v4 cmaa at 10k because they cost 2088 each.

[Vanya]

GAH

Sara sucks? Vanya like using Saracens... They open wide and swallow enemy whole

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Sara may blow chunks when nailed in the rear, but what unit would truly relish such an act of aggression perpetrated against it?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Now, if youz really in a pretzel, youz can go for uber-infantry. Get Muslim Peasants and ramp them up to v4a3w3 and put them into wedgies. Youz will smack them silly kinigits back into the cauldron where youz shall make soup of their heads

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

For BEST effect, use arquebusiers and choose rain. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif This way, youz won't waste time trying to get them to aim steady.

GAH

[Kongamato]

I think he means V3 CMAA. While most frontlines are 5-7 units wide, some people go for 4 V3 CMAA and lots of flanking cavalry or missile units.

Hmm... some Bulgarian Brigands, Boyars, v4 MS and pavs might make a good Anti-Turk army. Must investigate. Hope I dont run into Futuwwas.

[Tempiic]

Quote[/b] (R'as al Ghul @ Mar. 08 2004,19:03)]or inspired by Tempiic:
1v2 GhulCav Gen
3v3 Futtuwa
4v0 JanHI
3v2 JanInf
2v3 OttomanInf
Rest GhulCav
Ummm just like Louis, Its been a while since I used such an turkish army... Think this was a testing army... Maybe I should try it again...


to answer another player's question... I do not really rush with turks... I either fake-rush, or I just have fun annoying you... or preventing you from moving where you should be in order to save your team


This is a turkish 10k army I used today...

general: turcoman horse val 2
3 x turcoman horse val 3
2 x horse archers val 0
4 x ottoman inf val 4
2 x crossbows val 0, armour 3
2 x turcoman foot val 1, armour 1
2 x futuwa's val 4

I suggest you may want to change the turcoman horses into armenian heavy cav val 2.. and downgrade the two futtuwas to val 3.. with or without a swordupgrade and change some of your pure missile into something else if money can buys it....

I cannot say I have a fixed turkish army i keep using time and time again, though there are some repeating elements like the val 4 ottoman inf... Actually I do not have any set army for any faction I play...

BTW.... do help me refreshing my memory about who you are... and how you get this turkish army of mines ;)


For the rest, I strongly agree with Louis' advice, eventhough I may not always follow it up myself... If you want to play a rush turkish army, then wolf-kanuni is the one you should talk to

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi all and thx for the resonance

First of all: to InDaKnight I think the problem is that french army you play against is not 10K :)
As you and others calculated correctly I have made a little typo here. The CMAA were v3 and all other v0. Sorry for that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
To Tempiic and Louis, well I have my spies in your provinces. Where else do you think I've gotten the info from? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif And no I don't think we met before, I was just reading with curiosity.
Concerning the valour of the CMAA I don't think there is a big difference here. The yas-unit master still tells me that JanInf will be killed while taking about 70% of the CMAA with them. So I guess the trick is to decimate them with arrows until you can stand up to them.
As for Vanya's and Dionysus9's recommendations
concerning Sarazen and Muwahid, well I chose the Muwahid because they are faster, have better morale and look as threatening as peasants, plus they have very good charge and I always had success in SP with them. If you want to boost the morale to 8 this is also done cheaper with the Muwahid. I think there is potential in them.
Louis:JHI are anticavalry, and nothing else
I always saw them as AP polearms and thus thought (maybe influenced by successful SP campaign use, where you alway have good Gen to lead them) they would at least hold the line (please hold the Line). So I have to change that.
at Vanya again:Now, if youz really in a pretzel, youz can go for uber-infantry. Get Muslim Peasants and ramp them up to v4a3w3 and put them into wedgies. Youz will smack them silly kinigits back into the cauldron where youz shall make soup of their heads
LoL. Now, I already heard of your preference for uberpeasants but yet have to see them perform well. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
Thx again for the worthy hints and Tempiic this setup of yours looks promising, I always thought those Turcoman Horses where too weak to bring them but i guess on this map there should be enough room to manouver them around.
I'm still interested in more input (replays avaiable), otherwise it's back to field for me and testing this out.
Cheers
R'as
Edit: Yes, I guess 15 K could also help me here..

[Tempiic]

you might find some turkish armies used by FF in these replays.

http://www.thiep.com/cgi-bin....=SF;f=6 (http://www.thiep.com/cgi-bin/ffmtw/ikonboard.pl?act=SF;f=6)