View Full Version : super ashi and all the complaints
1dread1lahll
04-15-2002, 08:36
Well with the server down, i'll take up on this discuession.
First off I belive that I am the one who started the use of "super ashi" in v1.02. If someone else started the use before I then I at least started the use independently. The use of 10000koku armies was already stanard, and not used to manufacture "ashi armies". I mearly took the standard koku and searched for the optimized army.
Secound, as the professed creator of "super ashi" I am well aware of their pit falls and can assure you all they are far from "super". There are (besides myself) a few in the community that know the combination that is superior (I dont mean more ahsi). Complaints of "dishonour" for the rise a tactical use in reality cheapen the community, and do worse for those who complain (when there is a counter solution for those who make the effort to find it).
If anything "super-Ashi" will, (once the solution leaks out), bring greater balance to the game.
Untill then, they are my "pet" unit (like cav arch for Magy). If enough people counter my "pets" with ashi, then I will be dropping them like a hot rock (for the ashi killer combo).
No doubt this post will bring a round of protests and complaints, But protests and complaints are the realm of those who finish 2nd in the race; while 1st belongs to those who work to find out how to come in 1st..............On a lighter note.....
Magy tell me, is it "fair" to use cav arch? hehe......
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I'm sure I adopted superYA earlier than you http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif. IMO, at long as they are not decimated by missiles, in outright no-brainer H2H, they hold definite advantage in combat-point per cost, as well as best speed for foot troops, as well as +4 bonus vs cav. They have their weakness (armour and morale for one), but in the hand of an average player, they can help even out the skill-deficiency of the player.
Cav army is a different story. Cav do not in general have the koku advantage compare to the ashi. And they required much skill to control and use they properly (magy created the horse-dance I think http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ). I reviewed Magy's all cav armies, and definitely the superb skill of the player using such army is obvious. Another I know of is AMP's. And I don't think there are many who can beat AMP's superYA army either http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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The ND and WM are supposed to beat the YA at the same cost, and they don't. The fact that you need a combination of units demonstrates how strong the super YA is. 10K is the wrong amount of koku to be playing at.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Dionysus9
04-15-2002, 10:49
Personally, I've never been that afraid of the "super ashi" because they seem to run awfully easily for an 8 or 9 honor troop. If you can keep them busy long enough to route a couple of their supporting units they usually run too. Now 8 honor YS are a lot more scary to me (but of course much more expensive) because they will fight to the last man.
ok let me throw in my 2 cents on this matter. As I was already saying before, I believe that the host should decide the rules and th erules must be sensitive enough. Maybe mr.Lahl here knows how to successfully counter ashis, but he concedes that not many know that. I'm a relatively new player, and the super ashis really stalled me at certaing point, because it was really difficult to stop using them and keep winning.
Therefore I succesfully banned super ashis from my games. Now, if mr. Lahl feels confident with ashis being present on the battlefield, and they do not lessen his experience playing, who am I to tell him what sort of games to host?
The real question in all this, I feel, is do super ashis present a challenge that you feel you shouldn't have to deal with or not?I think not, not on the stage I am at the moment at least.
FearofNC has mentioned that 5 honour max rule creates another powerful unit. However I'd rather have H5w2 ND, rather than plain stupid cheap Ashigaru.
When I get to that level, and find the solution to ashi problem, I will lift the restriction in my games. I believe that playing ashi-free games is just as useful as proving that ashis are useless, however I will need more convincing.
If mr. Lahl allowed super ashis in his game and did NOT use them at the same time, then I might think twice, until then its 4 max 5 hon max for me.
Regards, Tenki1Yoritomo aka Dom
maybe the more experienced players should stop bragging about their super ashis. if they know how to counteract them, they should share the info with more people, so that new players online dont face these armies more than once and leave the community with in a week. stop bragging and start helping newer players so the community continues to grow.
Master Macajor,
I see your new home has taught you good manners.
Lahll has opened a discussion....discuss........
When you become a better player Mac with your new clan, all this time practising and learning new skills is going to be broadcast for everybody else to know is it?
Same thing...
Boromir...
Gah!
Counter the farmers with .. FARMERS! And you will get a "boring?" farming game http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif muahahaha...
No. I feel it's still fun to have the superYA around, but not to the extent of > 4 units. Just my opinion. Nothing mention about honourability.. it's just a question of getting more fun out of the games thats all.
Like I've said, play big games and this issue become minor, and you move on a higher level of online experience.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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I've already stated my opinion on the SuperYA too many times - they're unbalanced (they beat everything head to head @ 10k even if theyre relatevely cheap) and hence here is again the "loophole exploiting" discussion - just like the red zone.
T.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
I must admit in the past when I have used superashi that it has been at only 2 units maybe 3 max.
Its never been a case of let's use all Ashi armies. Thats no fun.
Boromir...
hehe, thats funny...
super ashis was already seen in old STW, so lahll u wasnt the first believe me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
and in MI there was supa ashis at the first day, u will ask me why.....well, coz amp tested it from start, till the first patch the upgrades was pretty cheap and the moral was higher, so they was much harder to beat than now...
so it wasnt a new thing with 1,02, and there are many players wich used ashid always, like fucy or sori, i believe obake and elm did it too...ofcourse amp..
i personal dont like ashis, i tested it and dont think they are so extrem good, the moral of this unit is very low and thats the great weaknes...
but maybe u started to use them regularly...
but what u guys talk about?
in stw it was the monk, wich was "super"... ow its the ashi... lol
guys, use what u want to win, we are here to exploit the system...
and if u join other wich say" max4"...well, than all is clear...
if not, take what u want... i dont understand all this about this ashis, they beatable like any other unit, its the skill wich decide not just the unit...
the big prob are the unbalanced upgrades and the unitcosts, we wrote this already in other tread, a h2 monk cost 550 a h5 ys 545, and this YS will win this!
and ofcourse its a use of units wich rings the vict, i saw good players wich dont use any nice tactics, they do always the same...
guns..archers...shooting... losing shooting...rush...
thats it, there are other ways to use untis
but the most guys dont bring new things themself, they just use what other invented.
the best example are 2v2´s this boys figth mostly theyr 2x 1v1 nothing else, and ofcourse the damn iron board games....
this flat-boring "tactics" can even a newbie with 100 games play... thats nothing new, this dont show skill...
but all this is just about 1 matter...
who is the best, all know that not the honour behind dhow it, so the peeps go and beat all... now u guys search for the answer... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif)
imo, its just 1 possible solution...
take all units just 1 time, give them 3 or 4 honour (but all units), and than go and play
best of 9...
with such a setup u cant shoot the other to pieces u have to bring tactics and needs a lot of skill...
...if im rigth, gaz brought something like this already...
koc
lethal drbninja
04-15-2002, 19:38
Yes Mike ur right
btw when u shoot with 2 musks on 1 ashi 8h and its a bit close it is already running so I dont understand why they call them "super"
But maybe its just me...
DRB
Krasturak
04-15-2002, 20:50
The 'problem' with this unit is that it reduces the range and variety of the game, thereby reducing the fun of play.
No Super YA, more fun. Simple.
MizuKokami
04-15-2002, 20:56
how much does a super-ashi cost?
i think many of u dont understand it, but they arent "super"!!!
they have some advances but some disadvances too, look at drb´s point...
in a simply unit-1v1 they do pretty good, but
if u see it as a whole they have some very weak points...
...and i saw many of this guys who used them loosing,....so plz tell me what makes this unit so super?
the damn moral of this unit is terrible, down to 40 mens and gunfocus and they will waver, 1 cav as support in and they will run.... now u tell me...."this can happen with every unit too...."
....and i will tell, u ..."hmmm, depends... h6 nd fight till last men..."
imo u guys see just seperate units, not the whole game... u should do this, and u would notice that this unit have his strong points and weak too...
there is just 1 unit wich is realy super, and this is the musk, this unit is realy dangerous (for this 250 koku)...
koc
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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)
In the days of old, I started a tradition my descendants still practice today... I chained my peasants to the rice paddies.
Let me tell ya... they learned to toil the soil! The flow of rice rose from a trickle to a tsunami. We produced so much rice that it became known as 'koku'.
Now THOSE were super ashigaru! SUPER farmers produce SUPER volumes of rice. Send your peasants out to die for you in a silly battle? Why, who will harvest the rice then? Your mother? YOU?!?
GAH!
ofcourse it always depends on the map u play...
gun will lose momentum in some maps with more hills, like totomi...this maps makes gun less effectiv...
but i think u speak mostly about ur lovely iron map...
koc
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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)
Ok. Try playing 10K koku 1v1 on ironing board with no limits for a month, and put a restriction on yourself of no guns and no YA. Have fun.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Surely in this game, most people are at completely different levels.
If I make a comparison to Golf for example. If I was to play someone on my Home course(eg Seibagahara) then I would expect to have an advantage and expect to win.
If I went away to play somewhere I had never played i would be at a disadvantage. There is never going to an equilibrium because there are over 250 "courses" or maps.
Some people like to play on their home maps.
It makes you a more accomplished player if you have lots of home maps.
I hope someone sees my point here cos it applies to lots of things in this game.
(people like to use 5 guns, Super ashis, monks, cav archers etc.)
It gives you a greater feeling to attack someones home turf and give them a beating.
In my opinion it does anyway. At the same time because they are defending and have picked the map (i.e. hosting) I accept that they will have the advantage. Thats my risk to take. I dont moan about their advantage after I lose.
I could go on couldnt I???
Boromir...
Boromir...
[This message has been edited by Boromir (edited 04-15-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Boromir (edited 04-15-2002).]
ok yuuki,
thats a quest...
i play 10k iron, with no limits and no guns and no ya for me...
this sounds pretty good...
i create new name, so we can see what i can do in this mission....
lets say, i have to reach 150 honour?
...hmmm sounds fair for me..... 1 month 150 honour...
...i just need to tell u that i normaly dont use ya, and i have a undercovername with whom i did this already...1 of my famous armys was just with 1 or 2 guns...
but anyway..... no guns; no ashis for me...
koc
PS: i have fun, at least this is a challange
i created name....
NOGUN
nice or? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
koc
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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)
lahll,
The way the game is played now was not the intent of the people who worked on the v1.02. In that sense, the v1.02 is a failure. It's just a different set of stats to be mastered. The way this game works, I think that's all that it can ever be, and what the v1.02 beta team was trying to do is not really possible which was to make a balanced army the most effective one to choose. I personally have given up trying to play the game the way I envisioned the v1.02 being used.
The standard default koku is 5K. CA/DT didn't change that. That's another problem with the v1.02 stat. It was designed to be used at between 5K and 7K, and the reason the range extends up to 7K is to afford the upgrades which we now know are broken, the cavalry which is supposed to play a more prominent role and the units that had their prices inflated in the v1.01 patch which was supposed to be just a trial increase to balance their extreme overpower.
Why is the game being played by so many at 10K koku or higher? The only reason I've ever been given online is, "I don't want my men to run away". The morale system in WE/MI is exactly the same as it was in STW which was almost always played at 5K koku.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 04-15-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
..."I don't want my men to run away...[/QUOTE]
They really said that?!? ROFLMAO
nice. i will take up the quest too, under the name of NOFARMER http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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shingenmitch2
04-16-2002, 00:14
Yuuk ---
one point about MORALE 10k vs. 5k --
You're partly correct when u say "people don't want troops to run away... BUT LOOK at the army that is being bought at 10K -- it Much of the army really is the same as the 5k in terms of morale...
Cavalry are around H3-H4,
Archers are around H0
Guns H2-3
WM H2-4
Nothing special there...
The difference is in people's ability to upgrade units and Get a few "High end Types"
YA -- at this level can get honor = H2 WM (a morale effect of 5K--but now given to the YA)
The NDs or YS will stand tall at H5-6 (so a morale effect is seen here)
So it's not that people want troops to fight to the last man, but instead want to be able to buy a larger group of troops that act "normal" at 10K.
Also the slightly higher Morales, in effect, lessen the impact of the "GUN BLAST." So that troops can withstand the guns a little better.
Boromir,
I'm refering to unit balance on a flat map because the ironing board gets played a lot, but your point about different player skill is very important. It's the reason that people can draw wrong conclusions from battle results. I've seen this in my chess experience where what seems like brilliant play by the winner was in reality flawed play by the looser, and the winner actually had a lost game at some point. The YA is overpowered when it's pumped up. You can see it in a numerical analysis, and it's consistent with what players are seeing on the battlefield.
There are definitely unit combination tactics that are very effective, but the game would be that much better if the basic units were better balanced to begin with. It's still limiting if you come up with a decent combo against YA, but you are always facing YA. I don't believe that the combo tactic lahll has is so effective that it will sweep YA from the scene. Imagine how many potential unit combo tactics are not getting a chance to be investigated because the army you face always has the same basic make up. Maybe I'm in a rut in my tactical thinking, but I can usually tell beforehand when an attack will fail.
Kocmoc,
I tried for two months after the release of v1.02 to play without guns, and I never used YA. I didn't even win 1/2 of my games which was a definite reduction in my win/loss ratio. Once I switched to guns, and later to YA, my wins went up quite a lot. I'll try this nogun/noYA approach again, but I remember the games were very difficult. The only reason a said one month was to give a good effort to trying this because it is difficult.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Tankdogg123
04-16-2002, 01:26
hmmm u may have started it in v1.02 but i think I started it in 1.00 as i remember the cries when i won with 16 ashi hehehe I couldn't believe it myself.
Nope i think this is goin way of track.(GL Kocmoc on ur Quest)
I think many r missing the point here.What was stated was YA w3 arm 3 where far too strong for the Koku,not that they where unbeatable?
As PuZZ and others have stated time and time again,they r not a balanced unit in the game(7k up),meaning they cost less than monks and nd and at high honour will beat both these units.Also they r fast and good Cav killers.
So u ask what the point, a balanced game is all what ppl keep cryin out for.
So PuZZ and others stated ply 8k or less or have max 5honour on units etc
Its really about balance not about finding ways of beating them.Aim Fire!
My next point is u dont need guns to win just great skill.Magyar Khan takes a all cav army, and beats ppl with guns? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
How he do this?Cheat, i think not,with great skill and no how of the game.The same as AMP who i have not really had the pleasure of beating yet http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gifAnd not forgetting alot of other vets as well.
With skill and other factors in the game all units can be beat.
As i think my Orlok is about to prove http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/markuk/t.gif/Fast.gif
Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)
FastCub
Papewaio
04-16-2002, 06:41
Honour upgrades should be a %
Armour and Weapon upgrades for similar units should be tiered.
ie YS and YA have the same cost to have weapon and armour upgrades.
Monk and NoDs same armour costs in upgrades (no armour to some).
This would make the upgrades relatively cheaper for higher honour units/ or similiar units with the same base type... at the moment a ashi gets access to better weapons then a samurai, doesn't make sense.
I still think that >6 honour should be samurai/monks only. It would be nice to see a honour bar that goes 0-2 Ashi Spear, 3+ automatically changes to Samurai.
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Victory First, Battle Last
1dread1lahll
04-16-2002, 06:47
Well good, seems most people got the general message of this post; that "super-ashi" are not super at all. Thus complaints of there use are not well founded. Like cav arch they require proper management, (remember we discuss the use in v1.02 not others).
As for shareing tactical information, ROFL.
I already said you just need to put in the effort.
Efforts to make the game in-balance seem to be a daunting task at the least, if not impossible, Some units will always stand-out, and its the duity of the community to exploite this, (and to a degree protest it). Failue to do so will simply lead to compliancy on the part of the games devlopers, and they will be able to crank out one poor product after another.
The map Ironing board was mentioned; A featureles, dull map, but without distractions, I have yet to hear anyone carping about a loss on it because "the map" or it has "bugs". It lends nothing to either side. Lacking any terrain features for experienced players to advantage, can be said to give newer people and edge; (as experienced players are not able explote features that are lost on newer people.
BSM_Skkzarg
04-16-2002, 07:47
super ashi?
got 1 word for ya -
naginata
h5 nagi beats honor 9 ashi - for less cost
neener neener neener
that of course is on level ground
if you have terrain advantage - even better. And if your savings allow for a single extra unit, or an upgrade to cav for one unit - then you have a flanker that will make even shorter work of the all ashi army.
4 nagi can hold 5 ashi long enough to get your flanker out... and into the sides of the farming fools.
Once you break one, many will run.
Q!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
"ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"
beware super archers. Bwahahahaahha.
1Master1Turin
04-16-2002, 14:49
Yuuki,
you wrote:
"Why is the game being played by so many at 10K koku or higher? The only reason I've ever been given online is, "I don't want my men to run away". The morale system in WE/MI is exactly the same as it was in STW which was almost always played at 5K koku."
Surely you know what is the profound difference in 1.02 over earlier versions and STW. This change has a tremendous effect on why men run away seem to run away in a instant.
This change was supposed to make the game more fun. Instead it made the troops more fragile. The result hss been that the amount of koku used has gone up.
Still players who understand the implications of the change can exploit it to defeat 10K armies faster than 5K armies could be routed in STW.
Koc has fully grasped the implications of this change and intergrated it into his game play. I know because I have read some of his posts on the matter. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Koc takes advantage of this change regularly to make him a more formidable player.
Does it make him unethical. No, Just intelligent and observant.
Same for Lahlls Ashi's. A few players have figured out the solution to the problenm ashis pose. We meet these players on the battlefield from time to time. As soon as that trick is discovered by the widespread community Lahll has the next thing ready.
In short, the reason that the 1.02 patch did not produce the result intended was because more was changed than so far discussed in this thread.
For the sake of those who took the time to figure what "this" is and benefit from their own hard work (hours of testing) and intelligence, I am not going to be the first to name it.
This change apparently had unintended consequences. But the fact that people have found unanticipated methods to deal with it is nothing new.
Regards,
1Master1Turin
"When faced by exactly three options, the enemy will invariably choose the fourth." -Moltke
lethal drbninja
04-16-2002, 20:09
Guys!!!!!
what is this????
in oldy STW i played almost all 6k games.
Now when i camed here it was still 6k but it was going up to 8k.
and after another few weeks it was going to 10k???!!!
its getting just up and up.
not that i dont like differnt koku's but why it always gets up?
I will play 8k from now on. (sometimes 10k)
but most of game 8k
i bet i get 100% more fun in those games.
DRB
1Master1Turin
04-16-2002, 20:36
iin the previous post I should have said "appear more fragile" because as Yuuki points out the morale system is the same as before.
Turin
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Konnichiwa,
YA are made/born/trained/equiped to operate in LARGE numbers. They have very LONG pikes and essentially they only serve to protect missiles against cavCHARGES (think of a 'mobile' castlewall). Large pikes are worthless in active single combat.
I agree with Papewaio san: an ashi > Honor 3 should turn into a samurai, that is, the way combat and morale are intermixed the way they are now. And it makes sense to me that when the cost is an %, the very upgrade should be a % too. But I'm fairly sure that this will cause another problem: a YS needs to gain power to be able to kill cavalry.
I do know that YA have weakness, I don't agree with orlok Kocmoc that this is a great weakness, and their weakness is a strong point too: routing YA hardly effect the samurais in your army, so superYA (I didn't come with the name, but I feel it suits them) are excellent for kamikaze missions.
I'm not a skilled player, if I wouldn't have fine allies I would lose every battle online. About two months ago I used 4 H7A2W2 YA in my army, when your general dies it's game over for the YA and they don't stand missile fire that well (does a monk or Nod?), apart from that you don't even have to think about what to do with them, just throw them at anything that moves and doesn't has your or your allies color.
Both Yuuki and I were training for Monstas 10k tourney. We were beaten to shit every time. Then we noticed something in the armies of our opponents: superYA. We started to use 4 of them ourselves, and we won games. My first feeling was, wow that's easy.
I agree with FastCub (he stated that somewhere) many rules wreck gameplay. Not to mention that I'll wreck my fingers by typing all those. The host should be able to set the parameters within you can operate, simply by selecting a file (just like one can host custom maps). That file would dictate how a unit behaves, which you can buy and min/max caps on upgrades and honor.
That's still a rule of course, but so is every stat ever used by a TW game: defined by someone you don't share views with. Now you've to tell the joiners in the game: 'do this and don't do that'; I don't feel quite comfortable with that. But I will do it now, as loopholes will ruin the game for other participants in the game.
'as experienced players are not able explote features that are lost on newer people'
Very good point lahll san, new people get lost on the fact that 1 YA unit kills their expensive H3 WM and a similair YA also kills their H4 JHC while a 3th destroys their 833 koku Honor4 naginata. I've also seen 'not so new' players who get lost about this.
"In short, the reason that the 1.02 patch did not produce the result intended was because more was changed than so far discussed in this thread.'
YA have always been a problem, so have muskets. I remember 3 vs 3 on maps like Seibagahara in STW.
You miss the point that STW offers a range of 51-99999 koku. While H0 units have a nice RPS system that would ensure realistic and fun battles, H9 units are way off from that. Each koku game plays differently, as 5 k was the standard in STW, and 7k seemed to be the new standard in WE 1.0/1.01 it was decided to make the stats best for 7K. Due to considerations for SP, not every change that would be good for online play was made.
Above that, the very fundamentals of STW combat would need some improvements.
'Still players who understand the implications of the change can exploit it to defeat 10K armies faster than 5K armies could be routed in STW.
Koc has fully grasped the implications of this change and intergrated it into his game play. I know because I have read some of his posts on the matter. Koc takes advantage of this change regularly to make him a more formidable player.
Does it make him unethical. No, Just intelligent and observant.'
I'm not sure what you're talking about, but may I do a guess? Cavalry. And that has been discussed here, perhaps not fully explained though. Cavalry is the most changed unit in 1.02: it's faster, some have more morale and all except the JHC have LESS combat (Mong Cav will not be discussed here). The combat started with the NC, as it was believed that they killed YSAMS too easily. As they still had to destroy no-dachis and hurt monks another power had to be increased. That was charge. Charge only works when 2 units clash into each other (1 can be passive here). In 1.01 NC had 5 melee 2 defense, in 1.02 melee is 4 and defense 1. It got easier for Ysam to kill NC. Tests were performed with different chargevalues to make NC usefull against Nods. While the NC had charge 4 in 1.01 (Nods have 8 !), NC have 11 charge in 1.02. This chargevalue will kill a lot of Nods right away (10 and up, I recall a demonstration where about 20 monks were killed in 60 unitsize during the charge), leaving the remainder outnumbered to a slightly stronger NC. The WM on the other hand has more combat than the NC, it therefor depends on the outcome of the charge who'll win. Yariunits like Ysam and YA don't suffer at all from a FRONTAL charge, a charge in the back does hurt them, while it's not 100% sure whether this is due to the chargebonus or the backstabbonus which is also huge. An exceptional high defense value can also void the charge: heavy Naginf.
Important to realise is that not only the number of kills due to charge is increased, but also (of course as charge only works in first seconds after/on contact) the killrate. This is something that can really turn the battle.
It's possible to make weak guns and shoot at Honor 2 YA, so that only 1 gets killed per 2 volleys. The killrate is thus very low. The YA unit will stand till the last man! When you make a strong gun on the other hand so that 15 YA are killed in one volley, you'll likely see the remaining 45 YA routing. Killrate has a larger influence on morale than total numbers of killed (if that has a effect at all).
To illustrate what cav can do: MizuKokami and I attacked Higo in a 10k battle (H9 YA were very present in the defending armies). We double teamed 1 defender, after destroying most of his army we turned towards the 2nd who was camping on the high hill and watched his friend getting slaughtered. My timing was not good, and my whole army got annihilated, except for less than 20 Honor 2 lcavs.
The 2nd defender repositioned on another hill and Kokami had to march again. The second defenders army was hardly scratched, fresh and consisted of H5 nods, H9upgraded YA and kensai (undoubtly purchased as H0).
Kokami attacked uphill with a tired and decimated army. My 20 lcavs sneaked in and attacked (from uphill) the back of the left flank. Thanks to a long line the killrate was high and the flank collapsed resulting in a defeat of the defender.
While purchasing superYA indeed compensates lack in skill and must be considered as exploit, using cav to the best extent requires skill. I don't have skill, but I could concentrate on the only unit I had left while the enemy was focussed on my ally.
The idea was that the high cavcharge would also be a weapon to deal with guns. The cav charge however is prone to failure and requires some skill (unlike using superYA or H0 Kensais/BN). Due to the fairly high killrate of guns, charging cavalry will hesitate and thus the charge will fail. Instead a severely hurted cavalry unit will engage combat with 60 guns and the cav has to rely on normal HTH combat. This has been lowered by 2 points. Thus the rate of killing guns by cav is fairly low. The result will be that the cavalry routs.
The musket combat of -6 -3 looks weak, in fact it's much too high. The more as the gun they carry is deadly (speaking in gameterms here). A H2 musket is -4 -1. Putting them on hold to make them fire another round instead of skirmishing and initiate the reloadsequence all over again, gives them another 2 defense: -4 -1. H2 YC only has 3 melee and is by far outnumbered due to bulletkills.
Guns were initially set to power 3 (reload was a bit longer too), hence the killrate was lower and the cavcharge did work. Due to poor performance in SP, guns were made a bit more powerful again. What we found out too late was that the cavcharge on guns didn't work anymore. Fix would have been to lower gundefense by at least 3 points.
The idea that guns would masacre cavalry is false, the movie Kagemusha by Akira Kurosawa (very nice movie like all his productions) where the battle at nagashino is reenacted is wrong. In that movie you see a couple of Oda gunners destroying the entire Takeda army within 15 minutes. Except for the outcome of the battle that Takeda lost everything is wrong in that picture.
I'ld recommend Osprey Militairy Campaign issue 69, Nagashino Slaughter at the barricades by S. Turnbull, ISBN 1 85532 619 1 to learn more about that. In short:
-The Takeda commander was eager to prove himself.
-The very terrain of Nagashino limited the cavalry (small river slowing down horses), flanked by woods.
-The pallisade (though of a different type than the one depicted in the movie) protected the gunners (which were arquebuses, not muskets) in case some cav would break through.
-Respected samurai were positioned amongst the ashigarugunners to prevent them to run away: charging cav closes the gap of in firingrange in 5 seconds, surely a frightening idea (missile units don't stand a change against a cavcharge).
-The pallisade was interrupted at several places to allow spearSAMURAI and ashi to sally and fight Takeda.
-The Takeda were outnumbered.
-The battle lasted over 8 hours.
If Katsuyori (Takeda Daimyo) had listened to his veteran generals the entire Oda/Tokugawa army might have been swept away.
The idea that guns masacre cav is also nonsense from an authentic view.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
1Master1Turin,
The most radical change was in the cavalry. Increasing koku to compensate for flanking attacks by cav on inf isn't the right approach. Higher koku makes the cav more powerful, and able to operate more independently. It's easier to counteract enemy cav attacks at lower koku because it will rout sooner in the vicinity of your army.
Guns will rout H2 and H3 units very easily. The koku has been raised up to 10K to help the inf and the cav in the face of guns. So you can at least reach the guns in a charge, but you really have to get the enemy guns down to 120 men or less to stand a reasonable chance of success.
If you're talking about the low armor on the YA, that is easily compensated for by buying armor. Now that is a big disadvantage at 7K koku and under because, if you buy the armor instead of honor, you don't get a morale boost. The armor is still too cheap, but there is a bit of a trade off there.
And surely, I don't know what the you are talking about because I can't read your mind. You are using the v1.02 in a way that was not intended. I don't think using tricks to gain an advantage over your opponent is ethical. I guess you and lahll will just keep beating someone with your tricks until the player either figures out on his own why he is loosing or quits.
MizuYuuki ~~~
If you face the souped-up farm boys and find yourself running in fear for your useless life... then it is a sign you are greedy, for you host with too much koku.
So... stop complaining and host with less koku. At some point, you will cease to see this phenomenon.
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
04-16-2002, 23:02
I think Tera talked about some rules for MP.
No more than 4 units of one kind.(4Max rule)
No unit can be higher than honour5
Koku/army value should always be at 7-8K
These simple rules (plus possibly no upgrades, can't remember) are easy to remember, and make the game a lot better.
They make the game what it was designed for.
Some post a link to Tera's 4 max thread so that all can see these ideas.
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He is the Messiah
No i'm not the Messiah
Only the true Messiah would deny it.
Alright then I am the Messiah.
HE IS THE MESSIAH HOORAY!!!
Quote ...No more than 4 units of one kind.(4Max rule)...[/QUOTE]
GAH! That would prevent me from fielding the wet gunny wedgie army of doom! GAH!
Lets not forget that a well-balanced medium, though optimal, will become too challenging for the tactically meek to defeat. Their recourse is to seek a natural inbalance that will give them a fighting chance.
To impose rules that force all to find balance within their armies will take away the tactical richness an inbalanced pursuit offers.
Within the comfortable confines of
BlackWatch McKenna
04-17-2002, 00:21
The Answer is: host LOW koku games.
I agree with Vanya except for one point. The intent of v1.02 was to make the balanced army a viable choice without the need for unit limits. That's not to say that the unbalanced army cannot win if handled well. It just shouldn't have more than a 50% chance of sweeping a well managed balanced army off the field with a frontal assault, and I don't think it does with the v1.02 when played at 5K to 7K koku.
You can make adjustments to your balanced army in v1.02 to enhance it's defensive capability, but you don't have to abandond it because someone is taking all of one type of unit and rushing you. As long as the units are balanced, no one army type is inherently more powerful than another in h2h capability. That leaves you free to take the type of units that best suit your style of play. You can take all WM or all NC and no one should complain because these armies are not overpowering. Kraellin and I tried all NC cav armies in some 2v2 battles with WE/MI v1.01. It was unbelievable how effective it was because the NC was a WM on horseback that only cost 450 koku. Unbalanced units lead to unbalanced armies that end up dominating the game and limiting your choices. Play with balanced units, and you will have the widest possible choice of army types.
The super YA isn't the only problem at 10K koku. It's just the most apparent one. The intended relationship of all the units has broken down at that level. Playing at lower koku is just a way of reducing the problem by making upgrades less affordable. As long as you can make upgrades, the problem is there to some degree. Where I disagree with Vanya is the idea that no-dachi will defeat the H5 YS at the same cost. They should, but they don't for the same reason behind the super YA. At least the YS give up some speed to the no-dachi, and you might be able to take advantage of that. I'll go so far to say that you would have a better game playing with all H0 units and morale turned off than playing at 10K koku and morale turned on. What the online game needs is a host controllable morale slider, and not honor, weapon and armor upgrades.
The ranged units are another story with true balance rather difficult to achieve. However, you can control musk by map choice, and not need limits on them. What I don't like on a flat open map is that if I show up with 5 musk and my opponent shows up with 6 musk, I'm dead because I can't charge and I can't win the ranged battle. And, I can't simply cancel 5 of his musk with my 5 leaving only one musk for me to rush because the gun focus of 6 guns onto 5 will result in a big win of the gun battle for the 6 musk.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
...Where I disagree with Vanya is the idea that no-dachi will defeat the H5 YS at the same cost. ...[/QUOTE]
I just stated a possible option. I never said it would outright 'work'... LOL
Kraellin
04-17-2002, 02:42
i have to agree with vanya. there are times i want to take an imbalanced army to upset my enemy's thinking and sometimes i just like to take an all cav army for the fun of it. those pounding hooves give me a thrill.
if the game was balanced at 7k in 1.02 and you're now playing at 10k, then, because of the way the stats work, you're essentially bucking the system to gain an advantage of some kind. it's a known FACT that as you raise or lower koku the relationship, the ratio of this stat versus that stat changes. it just does. that is a known FACT. thus, if you play at 10k, you are essentially saying, 'i dont like or i cant win with the balanced stats at 7k and i want to change things so i can win.'
someone else pointed out that it takes 1600 koku to make an h9 w3 a3 ya. you'll also notice that players arent opting for huge koku games that would render the 'super ya's' worthless. they are playing the koku game of making super ya's optimal. k. that's their option if the host plays at over 7k koku. it's a given that super ya's will show up in those games. i wont say it's a cheat. i wont even say it's unethical. it simply exists. it can also be beaten. if you see a game at 10k then expect super ya's and other 'tricks'. if you dont want to see these in games, then simply play at the balanced level of 7k. no other rules are really necessary there.
i've taken large gun armies and i've been up against large gun armies. they are a bit too powerful, but if i suspect you're going to take 8 guns, you'd better be prepared for either rain, or a rout. they are not indefeatable. i really dont agree with how we ended up modeling them but i was the odd man out on this one in the testing so i lost and we've now got the guns we've got. i also keep hearing of fixes to lower their power and accuracy and so on, but that's still NOT the right fix. GUNS PACKED A WHALLOP! even the old arqs could pierce most armor at 100 yards...if they could hit it and if they could reload quick enough. and THAT was the biggest drawback of arq's and even serpentine muskets (which is what sengoku japan had from the dutch)...the reload time. it took 2 minutes to reload an arq! 2 minutes! and that was with a fast guy doing the reload. i forget exactly what the serpentines took, but i remember thinking that giving them 45 seconds was still a huge compromise, so it was prolly something over a minute. the game is currently using stats of under 30 seconds.
now, as for range and accuracy, serpentines could hit pretty well at 50 yards...i think it was like 80% accuracy or something like that. it was fairly good. beyond that and it started dropping significantly, but, they had an overall range that is terribly misrepresented in the game. they could still kill at at least twice the range we have them currently set at, albeit with very poor accuracy, but they could hit and kill.
the problem with guns is that we're trying to make them into a full fledged unit equal to other units and frankly, that's NOT what they were in those days. they were a shock unit at best and a novelty unit at worst. their biggest advantage wasnt in killing power, it was in shock value, morale killing. could they rout a cav unit? absolutely, but not because they'd decimate the enemy, but because they'd scare the horses to death. have you ever heard 60 muskets all being fired at once? they were also the LONGEST ranged units and you COULD NOT see the bullet, unlike an arrow traveling in a slow arc. they were somewhat magical in that respect. an invisible weapon that could fell a man or horse, even armored at a long distance. if you dont think that has shock value and morale killing ability, you're sorely mistaken. this was magic. this was dishonorable! it didnt matter that only 1 bullet out of 100 would hit something at 250 yards; it was enough that ONE did. imagine standing in ranks and suddenly for no apparent reason your mate drops over dead, or 2 or 3, and then some more. the enemy isnt even close. there are no arrows flying. there are none sticking out of your mates. all you know is that buddha has gone over to the enemy's side and you're going to lose.
in many cases, generals wouldnt even use guns because they considered this type of killing to be dishonorable. little by little this changed, but in the period we are playing the game, guns were scarce and often not even used. scarity equals high prices. dishonor equals death.
if you want to 'fix' guns, double their range, lessen their accuracy (yes, i know about the poor model of guns), and triple their reload times. increase their shock value (if possible) and use them the way they were used in sengoku japan.
oh, and for those who complain about muskets shooting in rain. they did. arq's didnt, muskets did, even serpentine muskets did. that part of the game is modeled pretty well now. the reloads go way up in rain and so do the misfires. i'll bet some of you didnt even know that guns misfire at times. the friendly fire thing also works; you just have to observe closely to see it.
i see a whole lot of complaints here and i see very few folks actually doing anything with the stats. put up or shut up. if yer waiting for CA to 'fix' this stuff, forget it. it aint gonna happen. i mean, who are you complaining to? who is all this communication directed towards? surely it's directed towards someone who you feel is going to fix all this....who is that if not yourselves. CA has dropped the game. we all know that, so who are you directing all this communication to?
i know of 2 or 3 folks who are working on modding stats, but i doubt most of you do, so who are you waiting for to fix all this stuff? i mean, it's obviously 'somebody else' or you'd just fix them yourselves and present them to the community. all of these suggested 'rules' are nothing more than an attempted fix to things you perceive wrong. why not go all the way and just mod the stats?
now, i know that some of this stuff we cant fix without the source code. ok. but some of it we can. CA did give us some power to determine things here. it wasnt quite enough, but it's all we're likely to get. i frankly dont want a lot of arbitrary rules when i'm picking an army. it's too...i dont know, annoying. and certainly limiting. i will honor the host's choices or i'll simply bow out of the game if it's too weird.
again, i have no trouble playing no rules at 7k. we played one yesterday that lasted for hours. great game. the only rules were 4 guns max and honor 5 max. and i wouldnt have minded it with no rules. i'd have taken the exact same army regardless. even at 10k i dont care if you bring 'super ashis'. i also have 10k to work with. i prefer less exaggerated units, but hey, if it's 10k and i know that going in, then i expect it. d'oh on me if i play the fool and dont expect it. and if amp wants to bring 16 kensai, bring em on. i like variety. in testing 1.02 we'd run into oddball armies from time to time and the reason it would normally win was because nobody was expecting it, not because the units were balanced wrong. once you realized what was being done, you countered it. that's exactly what this game is about and why it's called a strategy game and not a 'shooter'.
bring it on. if i cant counter it or attack it then it's most likely me, as a player, who is at fault, and not the unit selections, for i have the same koku as the other guy, regardless of how goofy things 'balance' or not.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Magyar Khan
04-17-2002, 02:52
Hosting lower koku games like 6-7k just reduces the higher honoured farmers. Thats the best solution.
Ashis are beatable yes, but being confronted with 6 h8w3a3 ashis is hard work on the field to make it succesfull if u yourself have none.
8 Ashish in an army can not be compared as being overpowered as having 8 Cavarchers in an army. Ashis are combat units, ready for the rush after a shootout. Cav archers requires tons of micromanaging and constant making new plans to make them effective. Furthermore the ashis have a bigger chance of being effective in a -random- battle than cav archers.
Me myself dont like those highkoku farmers, fisrt they are a bit too strong overall, they are a bit unreliable and the spears of the samurai look better. I prefer reliable units.
Although cavarchers, esp h0, are unreliable as well. But from the start i am playing shogun i am using them. I remember my sadness in the early days when they kept routing when i was moving them behind the enemy. After 100 battles i used them as i use them now. Besides facing a spear rush every cavarcher in my army pays his kokuvalue back in a battle. And in a way, in 1 vs 1 battles thats what it is about.
Most 10k ironing board amongst very good players will go as follow: both sides have about 7 shooters (4-5 musk, 2-3 archers) and line up, and have a shoot out. Depending of the amount of attention paid, luck and more minor things there will be one player having more muskets left. So a rush from the other player is univentable. so he rushes. The musketremaining player will rush as well. Both sides use (nag)cav for flanking and keep their main body of hth-fighters close together. Skill, luck and paid attention will decide who wins the battle. The amount of ashis helps making a victory as well.
These kind of games create nice battlestress but are a bit boring.
Thats why a game like the Questing Contest adresses new skills, like putting creativity in your gameplay. Doing tricks on a flat map is one thing, but dancing around with an army on hilly maps as an attacker is another thing.
Especially in multigames with known and skilled allies creativity is needed to make an attack succesfull.
Rules like 4max kill the game. Capping the koku is better.
my definition of being honourable is
"the chance u give the enemy to create a fair challenge for him to win the game"
which means that if a certain unit is way to strong, ask yourself how much u need those unit(s) to have a challenging game for your opponnent and yourself.
i remember a wellknown player who attacked me on hilly Chikuzen. I played with my all cav army and his army was well suited to counter mine.
As a defender i will attack the attacker as well, being defender allows me to create the balance in the challenge cuz eventually teh attacker has to move as well. The sad thing is -in that game- that he lost and asked a rematch, he said -being pissed- he wanted to show me he could beat me, so i gave the rematch. His intentions were probably to field an all cav beating army with about 12 yarisams and 4 yaricav. Which he did actually field. I fielded 1 single kensai and rushed him. and i lost. SO what he gained?
People tend to make unbeatable armies and face every opponnent with it instead of creating the challenge for their opponents and themselves.
Good day guys
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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/stampnew.jpg Quote All land from sunrise to sunset is given to us.[/QUOTE] Quote Before we slaughter you in battle, we herd you around like cattle.[/QUOTE] www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl) www.totalwar.club.tip.nl (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl) www.campaign.club.tip.nl (http://www.campaign.club.tip.nl)
MizuKokami
04-17-2002, 03:21
the idea of super ashi,,,hmmm, is unreal to me from the ideas of what i thought ya were. conscripted peasants. a ys, born and breed to fight kill and die, had the good weapons, while the ashigura's weapons and armor were whatever sticks, spears, etc.... that they could find lieing around. and if the ashigura got a weapon upgrade, it was more likely they got hand-me-downs from the samurais who no longer needed their old weapons, for they just got brand new, sharper, deadlier, weapons, from the smithy(or whatever they called it in japan). as for honor upgrades, it was far more likely that a samurai, or monk, or nodachi would have the higher honor, and that the ashigura, faced with the idea of dieing when fighting one on one against any of those units, would run. (no wonder they are the fastest hand to hand units).
which brings me to my idea, an honor cap for peasants only. and to increase the realism of power on the field, never weapon and armor uprades above 2. this to reflect that peasants could not get their hands on good weapons, (unless they stole them from the dead).
p.s. guns are peasants too.
p.p.s. personally, i don't think i would steal a weapon from the dead, since it obviously didn't do the dead guy any good to begin with. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
honor, the fire of the heart.
Quote Originally posted by Magyar Khan:
...I fielded 1 single kensai and rushed him. and i lost...[/QUOTE]
ROFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
ROFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
ROFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
ROFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
ROFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
ROFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
ROFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
HILLARIOUS! Too bad you didn't pull it off. I would have loved to see the expression on his face when he saw that lone warrior descend on his exasperated men!
Did you pile on all the honor and upgrades you could onto that one little kensai? Or was he honor 0 and no upgrades?
1Master1Turin
04-17-2002, 21:58
There are "tricks" otherwise known as techniques with most units. Magyar Khans magnificent use of Cav Arch comes to mind.There are "tricks" to that believe me. And I dont pretend to know all of them. And Maggy aint sharing them.
As for beating up on new players till they quit that is not the case. Most of us in the past spent time helping new players. OBake and I had an email disscussion about it recently. About very three to six monts there is a wave of new players and you have to start all over again. Some experienced players have left the game because they tire of training incompetent or putting up with the insolence of others.
I see the numbers in the Foyer getting smaller and smaller. The game needs new players to survive. For the last several months have spent a great deal of time with newbie players helping them with their game. Some are receptive. Some are not.Its their choice. I would rather be improving myself. Playing better players than me. But I take the time to teach others because it is good for the community.
The other reason I spend more time now with newbie players is that I feel that the 1.02 Patch has significantly raised the bar for what can be considered the minimum skills required for competent play. I think that if I had started to play Online with 1.02 I may have quit out of frustration. It is just much more difficullt becuase 1.02 is very unforgiving of mistakes.Blink once and the morale of your entire army is gone. Blink twice and half your men are gone. Blink three times and you lost.
If the intent of 1.02 was to make the game more challenging it suceeded. Ifthe intent was to make it easier for newbies it is a disaster.
As for the Ahi's that started the discussion. The Super Ashi's are not so super. I use 3 units max of them because of it.
As for what point Ashi's should become samurai,after honor three I think was proposed, history gives us contradictory evidence for that. Prior to Oda Nobunaga Ashi were part time soldiers.Oda Nobunaga insituted a professional class of Ashi. His chief general Hideyoshi was a no name peasant ashi who rose through the ranks and ended up running the country. What honor was Hediyoshi when he was an Ashi I wonder?
In the Taira-Minamoto War there were little if any ashi in battle.All combatants were samurai. However this war is not covered in the game.
In the Later Part of the "Nation at War" period covered by the game most of the troops were ashi.
My use of three units of Ashi is probably not historically incorrect because I use too few ashi.
If the intent of the patch has not been accomplished. Perhaps there should be another. I would be more than willing to offer suggestions and my time. And as a beta tester morally compelled to thoroughly dissimintate all information "gifted to me" by the experience.
There can always be a 1.03.
Turin
1Master1Turin
04-17-2002, 22:07
...since I have a hardarwe firewall, I cant host very often without taking my network apart. Really pisses off my wife who runs a graphic design business out ofthe house.
So I am at the mercy of whatever game is up.
The people that I think are unethical are the one who host very low koku (below 5k)comp games on hills or woods. They always defend of course. In STW this was a challenge, and it was fun to beat these people. But in MI/WE 1.02 cecause of the changes it is not really playable.
This is using the limitations of the game in an unrealistic fashion just to gain honor in a dishonorable way.
Turin
Quote Originally posted by 1Master1Turin:
There are "tricks" otherwise known as techniques with most units. Magyar Khans magnificent use of Cav Arch comes to mind...[/QUOTE]
What cav archer tricks?!?
GAH!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
Magyar Khan
04-18-2002, 00:23
Although people wont believe it but i hardly know any more "tricks" as most others do. Nor do i research the game as others do. I dont have a list of all unitstats besides my pc to check.
I rely on creativity and manouvrability and all i know about chargebonusses and stuff is what i see and learn in a battle and what others tell me. But i dont know any numbers. Somethimes i use F1 to see what weaponupgrades do.
Furthermore i consider myself an expert in preying upon other players mistakes. ANd the biggest "trick" i am learning my wolves is that u must try to creep into the heads of the enemy. make constant guesses on what he is planning and how to use it for your own good.
So keep the game static and make no mistakes and u will win more ez.
As for these tricks i think people like mizus, amp and koc know most of them. A little prove could be that i didnt jumped into stats discussions amongst the betatesters we had a while ago. I just keep an eye on the progress of the testers and the overal gameplayability.
I am sure that researching the game-engine would kill the game for me. BTW it seems a boring business.
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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/stampnew.jpg Quote All land from sunrise to sunset is given to us.[/QUOTE] Quote Before we slaughter you in battle, we herd you around like cattle.[/QUOTE] www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl) www.totalwar.club.tip.nl (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl) www.campaign.club.tip.nl (http://www.campaign.club.tip.nl)
how could you type so much without getting bored?
Konnichiwa,
The point is that 60 YA should not be able to destroy 60 no-dachi. I'll skip the historic part now and discuss the game aspect.
The YA is made as a cheap, fast unit, that will allow to raise an army fast. To give it a function in a 'battle' it was given a bonus so it could destroy weak cavalry units.
The idea is that you could field masses of worthless individuals for 600 koku or one strong elite JHC.
Due to the upgradesystem the weak YA isn't weak anymore, but a unit that easily kills anything in an equal combat for the lowest price. 6 YA aren't equal to 1 uberunit anymore, but 1 YA is more than that 1 uberunit.
The general complaint is that STW turned into a missile battle: take 4 guns and 4 lsam yourself or you're dead. Buying 4 superYA is a 'requirement' too, leaving 4 slots free to choose. YA have their weakness as discussed before, but they're also no doubt the best bang for bucks.
H4 W2 Nod 876 koku: 11 melee, 2 defense, 16 morale
H7 A2 W2 YA 790 koku: 8 melee, 8 defense, 10 morale +8 vs cav.
By the time morale plays a role (in 1 vs 1 combat) the nod is destroyed.
The ashigaru that was dominant on the sengoku jidai battlefield (this was due to numbers not due to outstanding performance per individual) wasn't H7W2A2.
If you want to get close to sengoku battles you should do this:
-skip muskets, arques were used not muskets.
-make 50% of the army ashigaru: ashigarus are arqs, lsam (infantry archers were ashigaru in sengoku jidai) and YA.
-limit the honor and upgrades on ashigaru, max honor 3 and 1 or 2 upgrades.
-no BN, whether ninjas were ever used on the field, the way this unit is made doesn't suit a realistic simulation.
-no kensai.
-lcavs, what should be seen as the true samurai (Way of Bow and Horse) became 'worthless' in sengoku jidai. You might see some, but they would be a rarity. Outstanding archers and very brave though.
..
..
..
Like you can see, a lot of rules are involved here, if you'll spend some time to get used to it, you'll get rewarded by the best battles you could ever play in STW. Yamaga introduced battles somewhat like that. Needless to say that it died due to lack of interest.
Extremely low koku games on fair maps will give you something that comes close to the real thing, IF you make the rule that units must be at least Honor 2 (Honorsellback problem). Buy 3 nodachis and 1 YA or 1 YSAM, 7 YA and 1 arq and see who wins. Quality vs numbers.
'As for what point Ashi's should become samurai,after honor three I think was proposed, history gives us contradictory evidence for that. Prior to Oda Nobunaga Ashi were part time soldiers.Oda Nobunaga insituted a professional class of Ashi. His chief general Hideyoshi was a no name peasant ashi who rose through the ranks and ended up running the country. What honor was Hediyoshi when he was an Ashi I wonder?'
Hideyoshi wasn't an upgraded H7W2A2 YA raging across the battlefield slaying everyone before him. Besides we touch a thing here: Honor and Combatskills. It would be fine if H7 YA were so brave that they standed ground to get slaughtered till the last man by H2 Nods, giving the real units time to do their job. Instead of that the Nods get wiped.
The honor 3 is a samurai should be read as: honorcap of 3 on ashigaru in online battles, i.e. if you want a H4 YA buy a more expensive Ysam.
Edit: while you need skill to get the most out of a unit like lcavs, all that's needed for a superYA is a strong indexfinger to buy upgrades in the armyselectionmenu.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 04-17-2002).]
I play as does Magy-san... with the feel of the scenario, not with a stat sheet guiding my hand.
Funny, but in a way, the super YA makes more armies have higher proportions of peasants! Some probably have OVER 50% peasants! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif So, in a way, the game acheived ONE facet of your sought realism... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 04-17-2002).]
Kraellin
04-18-2002, 02:14
the real problem with super honor units isnt the honor itself; it's the addition of skills that come with the increase of honor. i've no trouble at all with a peasant with the honor to stay the field. what i have a problem with is that by buying him honor you are also buying him training. Target told us the increases and i've always had a problem with this since the old stw days. honor is honor, skill is skill, and you shldnt get both just by buying honor.
but that brings us back to the fact that CA isnt going to mod the stats again. i'm sure they're quite sick of it by now. so it doesnt surprise me that we arent seeing Target and Longjohn2 in here much any more. they've moved on.
so, what do you guys want to really do? is this thread just a let's argue for arguement's sake or shld we begin our own 1.03 patch and try and fix whatever we want to fix? i've no trouble with it being either. arguing for the sake of arguing can be enjoyable, so i wasnt just being sarcastic with that remark. i just wanna know what you all want and really need.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
By all means... if one of youz can make a v1.03 that FIXES this and perfects the stats, do so by all means. I'm sure EA/CA would endorse it and make it official at some point.
But, by the time this happens, MTW will be out... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
Konnichiwa,
We are working on Stats 1.03. When finished they'll be available for download at the org. This isn't a patch from CA, and it's unlikely that there will be any.
The stats are a great thing, but it's not possible to fix all issues in STW. Some stats are still hard coded in the exe, and are fixed. Stat 1.03 might fix some problems, problems will probably remain.
Using rules in games, if you want that, is the best thing, although nasty/weird/..., that can be done.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
1Master1Turin,
What may seem like a trick may be just a lack of understanding of how the game works. People can't possible play on a level playing field unless they all have approximately the same understanding of the game mechanics. It's equivalent to winning a game of chess because the other player didn't know how all the pieces move. Magyar is the last person I know who would rely on a trick to win a game.
Tactics are your own, and something you develop with your friends. No need to divulge those. Players will see them when they play you. Varying your tactics is a good thing to do so as not to become predictable. I do agree that WE/MI v1.02 is a more difficult game than STW. I believe it was the enhancement of cavalry giving the game another dimension that made it more difficult to master.
I'm not sure what you are driving at about the morale system. It's the same as STW. One thing that is different about WE/MI is that it plays faster than STW, and so, combat is faster. We had considered raising the defense value on all units to slow down the combat, but it would have requred rebalancing every unit and was not possible within the time frame we had. I've been playing games at 7K koku lately, and I don't see any problem with the morale. If you are talking about the cavalry's high charge, it was compensated for by taking melee away from the cav, and spears completely cancel the charge as well.
Shortly, an alternate stat which is a refinement of the v1.02 will be made available to the community for testing and feedback. Morale has been raised, and that should allow games to be played at lower koku. If the community can agree on a final v1.03 stat, we will have something we can use online. It's not intended for the single player game.
MizuYuuki ~~~
1Master1Turin
04-18-2002, 19:02
Bingo! Its all about time.
As fo Maggy I dont think that I have written anything that implies that his excellent play is anything but honorable.
The fact remains that there are techniques to using certain units (some people call them tricks in the non malicious sense of the word) that are not in the manual, and that are not divulged. I see other players using some of the few tricks that I happen to know in games. Some of whom have posted in this very thread.
I don't see them sharing any secrets.
Turin
Konnichiwa,
Could you please list the tricks/techniques you see so we can try to explain/document them?
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Here is a trick with guns that I think most know about, but many may not realize how much it can affect the outcome of the battle. It actually affects all ranged units.
If a gun is on fire-at-will and at the edge of the open fire range, it will not open fire on it's own. However, it can be commanded to open fire. The advantage here is that an opposing gun will not return the fire. Since a gun will kill about 10 men with three 20 gun volleys at max range, you have to catch this trick immediately or your gun will quickly be reduced to 50 men, and it will not be able to recover after that. You'll be lucky to knock the opposing gun down to 40 men if you get your guns going by then. It has far reaching consequenses because, if you do not reduce the enemy guns enough, your rush option is removed. The player who wins the gun battle has no need to rush since he can shoot down your entire army with a few guns. If there are trees, you can hide in the trees, and at least get a draw. The player who won the gun battle won't appreciate this tactic of hiding in the trees.
MizuYuuki ~~~
MagyarKhans Cham
04-18-2002, 23:50
i hate that ranged fire at will "bug", u have to watch the gunbattle closely to check if any of your shooters is just standing instead of firing.
yeah name us any tricks. i am sure 99% of them are known by the good players online. but using everything together in addition of making out plans and army movement together needs a lot of attention as well.
so tricks besides tactical ones and not cheats could be....
rout your empty horsearchers thru the ranks of your enemies muskets. but is that a trick?
or
use an archer in just 1 rank if being shot by arrows only. is that a trick?
or
when attacked use all shooters to shoot upon 1 enemy unit so it breaks and might effect others. is that a trick?
or
let the enemy charge your spears and put them on hold so they last longer. A trick?
tricks OR tactics gained with common sense. decide yourself. its clear that not all people online are bright and eager enuf to understand why they lost or won and learn from it.
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Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]
Kraellin
04-19-2002, 01:44
this is one of those 'tricks' or at least little known things. if your guns are reloading and you move them, they begin the reload process all over again, not from where they were in the original cycle. some say this is a bug; i say it's somewhat realistic in that a half loaded musket would tend to lose the power and shot while moving. not a biggie, but can be important once in a while.
and along with yuuki's statement about guns and firing at will, there is a condition when yer sitting on the threshhold of the maximum range where some of your guns will fire and some will not. you have to move them a tiny bit closer to the target to get them all to fire.
guns actually DO fire on a trajectory. we've tested this extensively. this can mean that when directing the fire yourself you can actually shoot OVER your own troop's heads and hit the enemy without taking friendly fire kills...if you know how. this is NOT a bug. it's just how the guns work.
there is also a condition where guns will show all the animations of firing but not really fire on the first volley. i forget the exact conditions, but we ran across this many times in testing 1.02. ask yuuki or tosa; perhaps they remember the conditions.
guns WILL misfire in rain.
reload times get MUCH longer in rain. this may even be tied to how badly it's raining. not sure on the last part.
magy's cavalry are ALWAYS mongol, even when he plays as a samurai.
tosa's cavalry are ALWAYS japanese, even when he plays as a mongol.
amp's guns are ALWAYS bigger than yours.
elmo's monks are ALWAYS gay and will always run faster than yours.
kocmoc's english is ALWAYS terrible, but he always makes sense.
my posts are ALWAYS longer than anyone else's, but i always say less.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
ElmarkOFear
04-19-2002, 02:33
The underlying problem that makes it hard to come up with an acceptable patch is: Ashigaru were valued because of their cheapness and this allowed you to train more troops than your opponent. Since there are only 16 unit slots available to each player, this cap eliminates the ashi's effectiveness in number. The only way to even come close to simulating this in a multi game would be to cap the koku to a very low amount. Let's say less then 5000 koku each. If a person took 3 h9 wep3 arm3 ashigaru units (1600 koku x 3 = 4800 koku) that would eat up most of his koku in a 5000 koku game. To counteract these super ashi is just a simple matter of buying a few missile troops to shoot them down to a reasonable size and then hit them with your remaining foot troops. The lower koku games will open up more options in troop selection and will give each opponent pause in selecting their armies. There are many ways to combat the "sameness" and "super ashi" strategies, but getting everyone to agree on how to do this is an almost impossible task.
The YA serve a very useful purpose early on in the single player campaign. You can stop the ai from attacking a province by putting a lot of YA in there. The ai has to exceed it's invasion threshhold before it will attack. The YA are inexpensive to train, and don't consume as much koku to maintain as other units each season. This use has no meaning in the context of the online game.
My obsevation on ranged units is that, if you let the ai manage the open fire, they shoot nothing at the end of the very first reload cycle. This doesn't seem to happen if you manually control the firing. Moving the guns after they have started firing doesn't seem to reintroduce the effect. It's not really a biggy, but might be important if you use your guns in double row where the reload is very long.
Firing over the heads of friendlies on flat maps is only possible when you are firing at max range and you have a friendly unit about half way in between. I don't think this is an important factor because you don't usually see armies set up that way since the forward units would get all shot up by the enemy.
I alway check my archers to make sure all are firing since all rows can fire but have to be within range to do so. It's less of an issue with guns because in 3 rows only the front row fires. There could be some instances where you don't want all archers firing because you want to conserve arrows. So, you can use that to your advantage.
I measured reload times on musk to be 3x longer in teh rain. I think it was light rain.
All non-gun ranged weapons tend to overshoot. This tendency gets worse as the range gets shorter and the trajectory gets flatter. At max range it's not bad. I don't know about xbows since I never use them.
The way hold formation works in this game is completely bogus. Don't bother attacking guns in hold formation from the side with cav. It takes too long to break down the gun unit that way.
MizuYuuki ~~~
1dread1lahll
04-20-2002, 07:05
I think some people missed the topic (That the "super ashi" can be stopped in a number of ways), seems people are torn between two opinions 1 They are too good to be allowed, 2 They suck, such a contradiction lends itself to the "both are wrong" idea. And some are misinformed as to my (and Turins) use of this unit, I think some invision 16 ashi comming at them like 16 monks from old stw. At present I use 3 of these units, not 16 not 10,... three, along with a verity of monks, cav an so on, Ive yet to see anyone with a 16 ashi army in patch 1.02, I recall seeing 16 monks all the time in old stw.........Ashi are just another tactical unit, with some advantages and some drawbacks, I feel such a unit (advantages/drawbacks) is a far cry from the old monk rush days.
I think here, having read and followed this thread closely that Lahll has a good point.
So many people are saying they're good
So many people saying they're poor, and not so super and they are easy to beat.
Isn't that the perfect ingredient for battle?
One player thinks he has a good army - His opponent thinks he can beat it. Bingo.
Sometimes I take 2 Ashi sometimes I dont.
Boromir...
It's all a matter of having fun. Some bring "normal" army to battle, and keep getting bashed. Then they looked at their opponents and copy their armies, and then things get easier. Then more followed. In the end, you may get 80% of the people playing the same style with the same army. This is fun to some, and not so fun to others.
Some said these ashi "enriched" armies can be beaten. In fact, any type of army can be beaten. Like the olden monk rush. Following the normal distribution, the median percentile of the players will counter this with an exact, ashi "enriched" armies, while the better percentile using exotic or "normal" armies complemented with better skill.
For one, I am not for or against the use of super ashi. Hopefully, things do not develop to a sad stage where almost everyone is superYA heavy (using more than 2/3 superYA). This will take away my fun.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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Quote Originally posted by Vanya:
...Funny, but in a way, the super YA makes more armies have higher proportions of peasants! Some probably have OVER 50% peasants! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif So, in a way, the game acheived ONE facet of your sought realism... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 04-17-2002).][/QUOTE]
Let me just reiterate this for all those that wanted a preponderance of YA in the field. They got it. Think of the 'issue' here as an evil genie's granting of a wish...
1Dread1Lahll,
The 16 YA at 10K koku doesn't work because 750 x 16 = 12000. You can't buy 16 super ones at 10K. IMO, the pumped YA still breaks the game even if you only take one of them.
MizuYuuki ~~~
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