Charge bonuses

[Wavesword]

Can anyone tell me if two units can charge each other simultaneously, an thus both be the attacker? I ask because I remember in a recent battle some Warrior Monks vs Naginata where it didnt seem to matter a great deal who charged because either the Monks would attack well and the Naginata would defend well, or they would flail at each other ineffectually- I suppose it could matter from a speed point of view!

[Krasturak]

Gah!

What are the conditions determining if the charge bonus is applied?

This is something that seems obvious, but now Krast thinks about it, he doesn't know really ...

Any expert opinion on this question?

[tootee]

I think it's like this...

H2H resoluton is on an individual man basis. When two units charge into each other, both will be applying their charge bonus. It is a question of who strike 1st. Each unit of men advances based on some sort of a time-tick, and each tick moves one unit. So depends on the positions of the involved units, on progression to the next time-tick, some men from one side will hit the other side, computer resolve outcome based on (Att - Def + Modifier) blah blah blah. At next time-tick, the other side advances, and whichever men able to strike will test their luck on the random generator. And things continue blah blah blah..



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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[Puzz3D]

Both units can be attacking, and each gets it's respective charge bonus. If you hold the cursor over the unit you will see the speed indiction change from "marching" or "marching quickly" to "attacking" The charge bonus doesn't last for more that a few seconds. The reason you don't see much difference when charging with naginata or warrior monk units is because those units have a very low charge bonus.

MizuYuuki ~~~

[Vanya]

Charge bonus is computed in TWO fashions:

1. Positional and speed; that is higher and faster and proximity to rear gets bigger bonus.

2. Unit Commander can answer the question "What's in your wallet?" correctly.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif


[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 04-11-2002).]

[Wavesword]

Thanks for the info thus far but could anyone clarify the tail-end of my query- do the relative bonuses of the units affect the speed at which the combat takes place, i.e. would it have lasted longer if Monks were defending against Naginata rather than the other way around?

[tootee]

To me there is no difference when two units are involved in H2H; each alternates between attacking and defending. Unless you put the unit on hold formation hold ground, the effect is less men in the unit engage the enemy, since in hold formation, only the front row of men engage, and hold ground will make them not wander away fighting the enemy.

Using monk to attack the naginata or to hold against the naginata produces the same net effect IMO; Monk attacking Naginata get -3 combat factor (5 - 8), Naginata attacking monk also get -3 combat factor (-1 - 2). The difference is that wm has higher honor, and less armour which make them vulnerable to missiles if they hold (and engage too long a time -> more chance for missiles KIA). So for wm always use them to attack in engage-at-will formation so that the max number of men can engage.

I seldom use naginata because they kill too slowly, but I believe most use them to hold the line while the missiles make their killing. So put the naginata on hold formation and hold ground so that they last longer to give more time for your missiles to do the killing.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 04-12-2002).]

[Krasturak]

Wavesword;

The answer to your question depends on the 'charge bonus' applied to the units.

Each unit type is separately rated for 'charge bonus'; the Yari Cavalry has the highest rating.

Between Monks and Naginata, it depends on the patch version. In 1.02, the naginata troops have a higher charge bonus (not sure if true), so they would have the advantage if all else is equal.

[Puzz3D]

The naginata has a low attack factor and a high defense factor. That is what is producing the slow rate of casualties. The chance of a kill for each swing of the weapon = 19% * 1.2 ** [att - def]. So, for WM vs NI with both units in the engage at will formation it is 19% * 1.2 ** [-3] = 11%, and it just happens to be the same whether the monk is swinging at the naginata or the naginata is swinging at the monk as tootee points out. If two WM fight each other, the att - def = +3. That gives a 33% change of a kill on each swing. The combat between two WM will be over 3 times quicker than the combat between a WM and NI.

MizuYuuki ~~~

[Kocmoc]

i tested a lot with nags, (i know this is about chargebonusses) this unit has some very nice advances, sometiems i holded with 3 units 8 units...the half of an enemy army..

thats pretty good, but this untis are slower, and u need them on the correct side, if 1 side of urs is attacking and the other defending... if ur enemy change his army i battle too u will have a prob, coz this nags need to move over...

if u have a balanced setup u dont need to change untis u just move some more left or right...

and nags are to expensiv...if e would fight with 6k u could thing about but in this 7 or 8k games its just to expensiv...

all together there is my special chagebonuss, thats topsecret but my units get all a +1 att bonus coz i take yellow colour... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

and +1 def bonus coz my general is pretty famous...

and ofcourse all chargebonusses are increased by 2 coz, my units are mad in germany ....

this post is.... *made in germany*


koc

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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)

[Vanya]

All my units get a +infinity bonus because I have no head...

[FasT]

LOL>>>>>>>>>>>CHARGE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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FastCub

[Wavesword]

Thanks everyone! As a result of gaining this knowledge I have forgotten how to walk.

[Gothmog]

I read somewhere that, yari infantry, if facing cavalry directly, can cancel cavalry's charge bonus.

Can anyone confirm?



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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
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[Kocmoc]

vs spears noone unit has any chargebonusses...

koc

[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by Kocmoc:
vs spears noone unit has any chargebonusses...

koc[/QUOTE]

Spear cancels ALL bonuses? You mean even no-dachies will lose their charge bonus? Or are you just saying it in a rhetoric fashion?



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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
http://members.fortunecity.com/argus1000eyes/fighter.gif

[Puzz3D]

Tosa and I checked this carefully. The no-dachi charge bonus is cancelled by spears when they are facing the charging unit. Kocmoc is correct.

MizuYuuki ~~~

[FasT]

Yup Koc is correct i told me this a few days ago http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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[Gothmog]

Gee, there is always something new to learn....

Now what about Yari Cavalry? Can they cancel charge bonus too?



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[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Tosa and I checked this carefully. The no-dachi charge bonus is cancelled by spears when they are facing the charging unit. Kocmoc is correct.

MizuYuuki ~~~[/QUOTE]

Now that is news to me! What spear cancel all bonus when facing them straight in the face? Logical but how come it is not made known earlier? Gah, another advantage for the superYA. Oh man, the poor bastard No-Dachi.

Yuuki how do you test it? Maybe modifying the naginata to have the same stats as YS, and testing ND vs NI and ND vs YS to see the initial rate of kill of the ND? I'll need to update this news to Shogun Academy. Thanks.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[tootee]

I did some tests in SP mode to find out what Koc has said. I modified the troopstat to YS with melee -4 and defence +8, ND with charge 48 melee -4 and defence +8. I made naginata having the same stat as YS, and YC having the same stat as ND. I perform one unit h2h over 5 trials each, noting the men remaining in the YS/NI, which gives the rate of kill for each round of combat. Since the melee and defence is similiar for all, such that each unit has a low killing but high staying power, the negation of charge bonus by spear will be obvious.

ND vs YS (figure is YS men left after round)
trial 1 2 3 4 5
round1 48 51 49 50 48
round2 46 45 46 47 45
round3 45 44 45 47 44

subsequent rounds the men die very very slowly due to the high staying power. After 5 rounds, on average ND lost only 3 men.


ND vs NI
trial 1 2 3 4 5
round1 51 46 51 50 49
round2 49 45 48 49 45
round3 48 44 47 48 44


YC vs YS
YC charge bonus is negated by YS, and round1 has no kill.


YC vs NI
figures similiar to ND vs NI.


I also noted that the charge bonus only last for first 3 rounds on combat only. I lower the charge bonus of ND to 24 (half), and the round1 kill averages 2 to 3, round2 kill averages 2 to 3, round3 kill averages 1 to 2.

I wonder is there a diminishing effect on the charge bonus, i.e. at subsequent rounds charge bonus is reduced by factor such that by round4 it is rounded to zero.

So I conclude that spear (YA should be the same) only negate cav charge bonus.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 04-16-2002).]

[Puzz3D]

Hi tootee,

I'm not sure how you are measuring "rounds", but ND are certainly getting similar kills on YS and NI in your test. I recently observed in an online test a regular H2 ND charging a YA, and I did not see a lot of early kills, although, there were some. I expected to see more with the normal 8 point charge bonus of the ND if charge was in effect. I did conclude from watching several of those ND charges on YA that charge bonus was being cancelled. However, the test being conducted was not designed to look specifically for the charge effect.

The charge bonus of 48 that you use is way out of range. A combat difference of 9 gives almost 100% chance of a kill, so, anything larger shouldn't produce more kills. I'll try to coroborate your results with a LAN test. I'm thinking of using charge 18, melee 0 and defense 9 on the ND just to stay within known limits. I could also contrast this with charge 9, melee 9 and defense 9 to see if charge is added to melee or substituted for it. I would put the YS at melee 0 and defense 9. I should get numbers very similar to yours. I can't pause in a LAN test so I'll just have to look for the point where the kills level off.

Thanks for testing,
MizuYuuki ~~~

[tootee]

Yes I make the charge value way high as I'm not sure whats the limit, and assume that the s/w will clip it to the upper bound.

The charge bonus is added to the melee factor, as can be seen from YC-vs-YS and YC-vs-NI tests (and SA has a small charge bonus of 2 if I remember correctly).

Try using the minimum melee factor and maximum defence factor for ND and YS in your test. And compare against ND with charge bonus at max and charge bonus of zero. I believe with the zero setting, when ND/YS clashes there is hardly any kill. So any kill with the max setting can be attributed to the charge bonus. Maybe YS lower the charge bonus of its attacker. So best is test on NI with exactly the same stats as the YS. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 04-17-2002).]

[Khan7]

Nope, folks will kill well enough even with there being a negative difference between the melee of the attacker and the defence of the target..

Matt

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!KABOOM! -- The Thunderbomber Creed

[Puzz3D]

tootee,

probability to kill = 19% * 1.2 ** df
df = melee - defense + bonus
The limit on df would be 9 since that gives very close to 100% if the formula is correct. One thing that doesn't seem to fit in with that formula is the kensai with a melee value of 18. That would say the kensai would kill anything he attacks on the first swing. I don't recall him killing on every swing of his sword.

I agree that charge must be added to melee. It wouldn't make sense to substitute the charge for the melee because some units have less charge than melee.

How do you determine that one round has elapsed?

Khan7,

We are talking a very short duration of 3 or 4 seconds until the charge bonus goes away. Tootee got zero kills in the first few seconds on YS charged by YC with his modified units. The df for his test is -12.

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 04-17-2002).]

[tootee]

In SP one combat round is pretty easy. I took a high melee unit vs low defend unit such that the chance of a kill is very high, and the drop in size is in big step (I pause the game when I see number drops). From there we can get the tempo of each round, much like second-hand ticking, very consistent.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[tootee]

Yuuki, could it be that the game engine will clip the probability-to-kill at a certain number, like 0.9? Like in AD&D, on a 20-sided dice-roll, a roll of 20 is an automatic-kill or non-kill (forgotten since it was a long time ago when I last play).

For the KS, since he is a one-man unit, I believe vs lowly YA, every round he makes a kill. For 60-men unit, most of the time I think about 20-30% of men are engaging? Then based on expectation of 0.9, each round the unit should kill 11-16 men?

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 04-17-2002).]

[tootee]

Another thing in my test, is that after the initial large kill by the ND on the YS (due to the large charge bonus) from round4 on, on average the ND makes one kill per round.. a very slow kill-rate, sometimes w/o kill for 3 rounds straight.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[Khan7]

I have never observed anything that would give me the idea that combat in STW is intentionally broken down into rounds. The way the men fall may appear that way, but I would require more proof than mere perception to discount the obvious assumption that the little men are being modeled individually and the way in which they interact, strike, counterstrike, move back and forth etc. is a bit more complex than that.

Matt

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!KABOOM! -- The Thunderbomber Creed

[Puzz3D]

Longjohn2 stated that the only way you would have all the men in one unit striking at the same time on the first strike would be to have the units converge with their fronts precisely parallel. A man has to move to an enemy man to strike at him, so typically during a melee, some men are moving while others are striking. The men that don't have to move could be in sync in their strikes and parries, but statistical uncertainty in killing can in itself result in non-uniform rate of kills even if things are not in sync. We don't know how good the random number generator is, although, there is a well known standard way of making them that gives a nice uniform distribution of numbers.