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PSYCHO
03-12-2004, 02:13
WHAT SORT OF UNITS DO YOU WANT IN RTW ?


The following are examples of the type of units that CA could pull from history and incorporate in RTW.
Read the following Unit suggestions and post your opinion.

It would be good to hear what you all think on this issue..so don’t be shy, have a voice



SUGGESTED UNITS FOR THE GAUL FACTION


Northern Gallic Warband:
Impetuous, Good valour, Dubious morale under heavy casualties.
(Long hair, naked chest, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, spears, long Celtic sword, Gallic moustache, oval shield, torque)
These units and the Southern Warband provide the bulk of the Gallic force. They can work in close or open formation and can throw or thrust with their spears before charging home with sword.
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)



Southern Gallic Warband:
Impetuous, good valour, dubious morale under heavy casualties.
(Shorter hair to nape of neck and spiked up with lime, naked chest, tartan trousers in ‘faction colours’, cloak, shoes, long Celtic sword, Gallic moustache, rounded rectangular shield, torque)
These units and the Northern Warband provide the bulk of the Gallic force. They can work in close or open formation and have a very good initial assault.
(Can be raised anywhere in Cisalpine Gaul and Celtiberia)



Gallic Lugus Epos (‘Light Horse’):
Quick, good valour, good morale, good in broken terrain, good against Light troops, enemy cavalry and infantry flanks.
(Iron bowl Helmet with tri swirl cheek guards, long hair, long sleave tunic in ‘faction colours’ over trousers and tied at waist by belt, shoes, arm guards, round shield, throwing spears, long Celtic Sword).
The Gallic Lugus Epos constitute the bulk of Gallic cavalry. Able to either throw or thrust with spears before engaging with sword, they form an effective mobile force.
(Can raise from any Celtic Area)



Senone Slingers:
Dubious morale under heavy casualties, Sapping ability.
(Long hair, naked chest, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, sling, pellet pouch slung over shoulder, short Celtic Sword, Gallic moustache, very small round shield usually slung over back, torque).
These adept skirmishers can hurl lead slugs at high speed over good distances. They are particularly good at attacking lightly armed troops in open / broken formation. They can fight with sword if forced, but they prove to be ineffective in hand-to-hand warfare.
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)



Aquitanian Archers:
(Shorter darker hair, long sleave shirt to thigh over trousers in ‘faction colours’ and tied around waste with belt, shoes, bow, quiver of arrows hung off left hip, short Celtic sword, Gallic moustache). These troops come from the smaller, more passive tribes of Southern Gaul. Good at showering the enemy with archery fire, they will soon run if engaged in hand to hand fighting.
(Can be raised in Southern Transalpine Gaul)



Aedui 'Boduus' (‘Of the Raven’) / Royal Guard:
High Morale, well disciplined, can form testudo, shield wall or charge in open formation with sword.
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’, shoes, oval shield, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, golden torque and armbands).
These troops are an elite infantry unit and are made up from the best warriors of the Aedui confederacy. Their purpose, similar to the Roman Praetorian Guard, is to serve the highest office in the land, the Gallic High King. Well trained and disciplined they make up for their small numbers by their impact on the field of battle.
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory)



Carnute 'Marka Isarno' (‘Horse of Iron’) / Heavy Cavalry:
Extremely high morale, extremely high valour, excellent attack, cause fear against other Gallic units, special attack and morale bonus against non-Celtic factions.
(Iron helmet with horns, long hair, Gallic moustache, mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, stripped trousers in ‘faction colours’, Royal Blue cloak, short ankle boots, arm guards, medium spear / lance, long Celtic Sword, round shield, torque).
Trained in the Druidic schools and Carnute military colleges, these Druidic Warriors are expensive to raise but are fanatical volunteers that will fight to the death against non-Celtic factions. These units become cheaper if at war with non-Celtic factions.
(Can be raised from Carnute Territory)



Carnute 'Nertos Sistat' (‘Force that Stands’) / Heavy Infantry:
Extremely high morale, extremely high valour, good attack, cause fear against other Gallic units, special attack and morale bonus against non-Celtic factions.
(Iron helmet with horns, long hair, Gallic moustache, mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, stripped trousers in ‘faction colours’, Royal Blue cloak, shoes, arm guards, long Celtic Sword, oval shield, torque).
Trained in the Druidic schools and Carnute military colleges, these Druidic Warriors are expensive to raise but are fanatical volunteers that will fight to the death against non-Celtic factions. These units become cheaper if at war with non-Celtic factions.
(Can be raised from Carnute Territory)



Gaesatae (‘Spearmen’):
High morale, high valour, very good attack, long spear throwing range and vulnerable to missile fire.
(Iron Helmet with boar crest and feathers in ‘faction colours’, long hair, Gallic moustache, Long Hexagonal Shield, throwing spears, Long Celtic Sword, large golden torque, armlets, bracelets and anklets, Large well built and naked but for a small flap in ‘faction colours’ at front and back of groin (for the kiddies)).
These are a group of elite warriors that have left their tribal allegiances to sell their services to the highest bidder. They believe their nakedness allows their fighting mogo to flow.
(Can be hired from anywhere that has a Gallic tavern)



Veneti 'Bagaudas' (‘Guerrilla fighters’):
Very good at hiding in any terrain, Fast, Cause extra fear through ambush, good valour, dubious morale under heavy casualties.
(Bronze helmet with horns, short dark hair, short sleave shirt in ‘faction colours’ with chequered borders to thigh over trousers and tied around waste with belt, short boots, spear, Celtic sword, strange squarish shield with wavy sides, Gallic moustache and torque). Traders, raiders and adept guerrilla fighters, these troops are expert at using the terrain to their advantage and sneaking up on their enemies. They also excel at night and amphibious warfare.
(Can be raised from Veneti Territory)



Brannovice 'Ueramos Ve'co' (‘supreme fury’) / Medium Infantry:
Good morale, good attack, very good stamina, extremely impetuous, ill disciplined.
(Long flowing hair, naked tattooed torso, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, chequered trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, arm guards, round shield and medium length (Halstatt) sword).
The Brannovice (‘frenzied ones’) tribe were a client to the Aedui and were renown for their berserk behaviour in battle. They would drink a ‘magical’ potion before entering battle which gave them ‘special’ courage, stamina and protection from the pain of wounds. Once worked up into a frenzy, they would often fight in a similar fashion as the Picts some centuries later. Working in pairs, one would throw themselves on the enemy’s weapon whilst the other struck the encumbered down.
(Can be raised from central Transalpine Gaul)



Arverni 'Maru Cingeto' (‘Great Warriors’) / Heavy Infantry:
Very good discipline, good morale, can form Testudo and Phalanx of spears, sapping ability. (Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet, long hair, shirt of mail over long sleeve tunic gathered by belt at waist, tartan cloak in ‘faction colours’, trousers, shoes, arm guards, long spears, long Celtic sword, torque, oval shields, Gallic moustache). These Arverni warriors are well practiced in complex formations and manoeuvres. They would form a tight, dense phalanx to push a hole through enemy lines and once the enemy were broken, would drop their spears and begin cutting down their isolated foes with their long swords.
(Can be raised from Arverni Territory)



Dubi Dusios (‘Black Demons’) / Celtiberian Medium Infantry:
Good morale, excellent valour, very effective fighters in initial charge and among broken formations.
(Bronze helmets adorned with purple crest, shorter darker hair, shaggy black (goatskin like) shoulder-less tunic to above knee bound by thick Iberian belt, arm guards, greaves made of the same black material wound around shins and carves, excellent quality iron short two edged swords, dirk, Celtic oval shield in ‘faction colours’).
Theses rough and ready Celts from Spain were fierce ferocious fighters. They can more than hold their own against almost any army, foreign or domestic.
(Can be raised from Celtiberian ‘Gaul’)



Helvetii 'Mori Gaesum' (‘Sea of Spears’) / Gallic Phalanx:
Very good morale, excellent discipline, very good valour, Phalanx expertise.
(Tall spiked iron helmets, long hair, red tunic with chequered borders gathered with belt over trousers, cloak same colour as trousers, shoes, arm guards, very long spears, long Celtic sword, large rectangular shield with rounded edges, Gallic moustache and torque.)
These Helvetians were very well organised into units with good leadership and discipline. They were the most experienced and effective in the employment of the very close and deep formation of the Phalanx but proved susceptible to javelin fire. Much like other Gallic tribes that use close formation tactics, they would drop their spears once the enemy formation was broken and charge home with the sword.
(The Helvetii were sorta 'renegades' and judging by the strategy map, I suspect CA will depicted them as ‘rebels’)





SUGGESTED UNITS FOR THE GERMAN FACTION


Lots of earthy colours, no intricate patterns on shields as seen with Britons/ Gauls.

The Suevians (general German units)

* Suevian light infantry (general unit / naked to waist, hair in bun atop head, fur, rectangular hexagonal shields, spear ‘framea’, trousers to ankles)
* Suevian medium infantry (nobles / leaders, ‘Spangenhelm’ type helmet, fully clothed, rectangular hexagonal shields, rudimentary armour, sword, dagger, trousers to ankles)
* Suevian light cavalry (square shield, spear, naked to waist, hair in bun atop head, trousers to ankles)


The Chattans (Extremely well disciplined, high valour, Infantry specialists)

* Cattan blutdurstig (bloodthirsty / those who haven’t killed) (extremely long hair / beards, very impatient, spear, dagger, naked to waist, trousers to ankles)
* Cattan heavy infantry (Rectangular shields, spear, javelins, axe, dagger, entrenching tools, hair in pony tail, leather breast armour over tunic tied at waist, trousers to ankles with strappings to knee, capable of complex manoeuvres)


The Tencterians (Highly disciplined, high valour Cavalry specialists)

* Tencterian light cavalry (small round shield, throwing spears, trousers to ankles, leather helmet, naked to waist)
* Tencterian heavy cavalry (small round shield, lance, axe, scale breast armour of bone or leather, trousers to ankles, leather helmet)


The Gothones (Assault specialists)

* Gothone medium infantry (large round shields, short swords, long sleave tunic to above knees belted around waste, hair in pony tail, trousers to ankles)


The Chaucians (extremely high morale, do or die Infantry)

* Chaucian light infantry (naked to waist, hair plated, tunic, oval shield clipped at top and bottom, spear ‘framea’, trousers to ankles, average fighters that will fight to the last man)


The Batavians (Ancient Berserkers, High Valour Shock Specialists)

* Batavian verrueckt (crazymen) (furs tied at the waist, hair full flowing, trousers to ankles, axe similar to the franciska, knife, small square shield.


The Aryans / Harii (Scary psychological / Night battle specialists)

* Harii uebelgesinnt (evil minded) (Black oval shields, naked to waist and all skin painted black, trousers to ankles, hair in pony tail, spear ‘framea’, dagger, do not engage in the ‘Baritus’ prefer silence and stealth until in battle, a love for slaughter and rape, good at surprise attacks)


The Aestyans (Superstitious guys that like to go clubbing)

* Aestyan Warband (hair in bun atop head, trousers to ankles, naked to the waist, boars painted in red ochre on body, bone boar jewellery, wooden clubs)


The Fennians (Feral Foresters)

* Fennian Jaegers (Hunters) (Hair long and matted, hardy with excellent stamina, naked except for furs tied around waste, bare footed, bows, arrows and knives of bone, excel at hiding in any terrain)

RZST
03-12-2004, 03:16
FANTASY no seriously, i choose fantasy..well LoTR-ish fantasy. *imagines battle of pelanor(sp?) fields* oh god...

PSYCHO
03-12-2004, 06:01
Quote[/b] (Ky Kiske @ Mar. 11 2004,20:16)]FANTASY no seriously, i choose fantasy..
LOTR? Maybe as another Total War title but in ROME: Total War? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

Rocket_Boy
03-12-2004, 14:25
A lot of well thought out choices there Psycho. I like the move away from the more generic 'chosen axemen' types.

However many of your suggested units seem to be very high powered ie high valour, morale etc. I'm not sure how historically accurate this is but I was under the impression that roman legionaries should almost always defeat barbarians on a 1 to 1 basis due to superior training, equipment and discipline. I don't really like the idea of building up all-elite barbarian armies.

PSYCHO
03-12-2004, 16:09
Rocket_Boy thanks.

It's highly unlikely you'll ever have an army of elite 'barbarians'. They just cost too much to raise, equip and maintain. You need to bare in mind that the majority of your 'barbarian' army will be made up of the lower level warband type units. The majority of the units in the lists are specialty units much like the Praetorian Guard, Gladiator etc units for the Roman factions, not your general front line troops.

What this list does is give the player the opportunity to play a great ‘what if’ game against Rome (Or give you a challenge as Rome). In history, the 'barbarians' never managed to consolidate their forces effectively enough. They never could combine all their best troops in sufficient numbers to make any real difference in battle. The Romans generally picked them off one by one in generally relatively small engagements. As a human player you have the opportunity to rewrite history and unite the clans

Without these ‘elite’ units, the Celts and Germans would present a pretty boring opponent and easy walk over.


my2bob

Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-12-2004, 17:13
PSYCHO is right on the spot with this subject. Listen to the voice of reason... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Ludens
03-12-2004, 19:55
An applause for Psycho, please. I am not sure if I agree with everything he wrote here, but he deserves our thanks for the effort he put into this.

Thank you, Psycho

Catiline
03-12-2004, 21:04
Quote[/b] ]It's highly unlikely you'll ever have an army of elite 'barbarians'. They just cost too much to raise, equip and maintain. You need to bare in mind that the majority of your 'barbarian' army will be made up of the lower level warband type units. The majority of the units in the lists are specialty units much like the Praetorian Guard, Gladiator etc units for the Roman factions, not your general front line troops.

This i htink is the key issue. Evidently there is a need for the game to have colour to it. special units are necessary in consequence, but i don't htink we need a huge variety in stats and special abilities. I'm inclined to htink of it in DBA terms. For anyone that hasn't played that which is probably most of you there are 17 different unit types. These are classified in groups - spear, blades, knights etc. Knights are the same regardless of whether they represent Macedonian companion or Teutonic order. THis is because they served fundamentally the same purpose. Evidently there are significant differences in type but the basic effect is the same.

DBA is a set of rules wrtten in about 4 pages. It's necessarily stylised. But ultimately will you use one sprar armed unit much differently to another. Different stats really don't make that much difference. I'd rather RTW was like Vanilla STW with a limited numbr of balanced troop types. If differentiation is ging to take place it should be geographical. i'd like troops raised in different reasons to look different. But a tribal german with a spear and a wicker shield and a tribal numidian with a spear and a wicker shield are fundamentally the same, just as one hoplite phalanx is much like another.A limited set of balanced stats will make for better gameplay than endless marginally different ones.

THe other thing I'd like to see is ratios of troops based on population and territory controlled rather than simply what can afford to pay for as now. A celtic society should be able to raise noble warriors. But the bulk of it's army should necessarily be poorer quality wqar band. The Macedonians should be able to raise pezetairoi and hypaspists, butnot an army of them, they should base their army around the basic phalanx troops.

I'm biased. I always much preferred the low koku battles in STW 2000, or preferably 1000. The 10k and 20 k ones were invariably rubbish, you tooled up and pointed your meat grinder in the right direction and pressed go. At 2000 koku you could take a few good troops, but it was mainly ashi and low honour bow or guns that you really had to nuurse through (this is not the same as micro managing).

So my basic points are these.

1) make armies use their basic components as well as the crazy elites

2) Make the special units geographical rather than tech based

3) Limit the differences between them. A few little tweaks to accomodate say Spartans don't hurt, but skirmishers are skirmishers. Ancient generals didn't distinguish between the types of weapon, just the function served, and that doesn't change much with stat tweaks.

Discuss

Catiline
03-12-2004, 21:08
I'd also highlight that I'd much rather see Psychos basicaly historical types than made up nonsense like the Axemen and the berserkers.

The_Emperor
03-13-2004, 12:35
Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Mar. 12 2004,20:08)]I'd also highlight that I'd much rather see Psychos basicaly historical types than made up nonsense like the Axemen and the berserkers.
Catiline has pretty much took the words out of my mouth.

Leet Eriksson
03-13-2004, 14:24
Good thread,and great job PSYCHO.

I'd like to suggest one thing,the arab camel riders in this pic (http://www.totalwar.com/community/rp2.htm) carry curved swords,as far as i can recall the arabs never did carry curved blades up until the 13th century all of their swords were straight,much like the european and chinese swords in aniquity,also they relied on the roman gladius alot more after they came in contact with them.

Spino
03-16-2004, 06:45
Quote[/b] ]I'd also highlight that I'd much rather see Psychos basicaly historical types than made up nonsense like the Axemen and the berserkers.

Tou don't have to lie to impress us Cat. Admit it, you're all about fashion, fabrics and cool sounding names... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

BTW, good work Psycho. But you need to indicate which of those units requires the modeling of truly funky Celtic headgear. Historically accurate units are sooooo boring.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-antlers.gif

Lazul
03-16-2004, 16:35
accualy i just want to make a Wheel of Time mod for RTW... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Longshanks
04-06-2004, 15:26
Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Mar. 12 2004,14:04)]So my basic points are these.

1) make armies use their basic components as well as the crazy elites

2) Make the special units geographical rather than tech based

3) Limit the differences between them. A few little tweaks to accomodate say Spartans don't hurt, but skirmishers are skirmishers. Ancient generals didn't distinguish between the types of weapon, just the function served, and that doesn't change much with stat tweaks.
I agree with your points, especially #1. Armies should rely more on basic units than elite ones. Elite units should generally be the minority in an army, rather than the majority.

Steppe Merc
04-06-2004, 16:30
I voted Hell yeah Complexity Complexity and more Complexity No simple to understand units Give us cool ones, with the right names As with most of your views on so called 'Barbarian' factions, I'm with you

Ashen
04-07-2004, 16:20
how about non-phalanx/triarii spearmen that can actually kill cav and dont crumple into a little ball at the first sign of a madman with a sword. Simple numbers in MTW made no sense. 100 spearmen vs 60 swordsmen yet the swordsmen would take like 5 casualties routing the whole spearmen unit. Spears weren't the best weapon ever invented but for gods sake, they weren't used solely cos they were cheap.

Decent spearmen in rtw

Tricky Lady
04-07-2004, 22:13
I don't see why CA would put in fantasy units when there's plenty of "historical" units to choose from. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif
OK, it's only a game, but the more historically correct things are, the more I like it.

The Blind King of Bohemia
04-07-2004, 22:22
As long as it doesn't go really over the top, i'll be ok with it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

PSYCHO
04-08-2004, 01:26
None of us want it over the top http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif