New Unit, Iberian Bull Warrior

[Barkhorn1x]

At the .COM.

The Iberian Bull Warrior.

Looks interesting.

Barkhorn.

[Spino]

Now THAT is some gooney freakin' headgear http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-egypt.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dunce.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-hat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-hat2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-mickey.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-santa2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sultan.gif

Is it me or does this unit seem decidedly 'historical'? Given the look of this new unit I'm dying to see if CA incorporated those funky raven helmets to certain Celtic units.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Unfortunatelly, as a Portuguese trying to find info on historical units for Europa Barbarorum I've been unable to spot one such as: Iberian Bull Warrior http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

Me thinks CA is dreaming stuff up... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif

Please correct me if I'm wrong... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Sir Robin]

I am an amatuer historian at best so I could not verify one way or the other.

Still I am quite happy with this unit because it hints at the variety of units that will be in RTW.

[PSYCHO]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Mar. 12 2004,10:43)]Unfortunatelly, as a Portuguese trying to find info on historical units for Europa Barbarorum I've been unable to spot one such as: Iberian Bull Warrior
Me thinks CA is dreaming stuff up...
Well they are a Creative Assembly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif

As I stated over at the .com

On the face of it, the Good:

* A good rough Iberian / Spanish look
* A good shortish double edged sword
* A good thick Iberian belt
* A small round shield
* A disk breast plate
* A great Iberian description

What I'm not so sure about:

* A helmet that looks like it's part Gallic, part Egyptian (Isus)?
* Metal greaves to above the knees
* No typical white tunics with purple borders (though may be a problem with the RTW colour scheme)
* No bum

Though the bull was venerated in Iberia, I think CA are playing more on the internationally recognised fact that the modern Spanish love their bulls.

I'm not sure the Iberians ever had such large horns on their helms, if any...particualry with a disk between them.
I guess these are an 'elite' bad arss Iberian unit so they've be tarted up a bit.


Hmmm...don't mind the unit, but the helmet I think I've got a prob withOther than that, not a bad unit I'll look forward to laying into Scipio's legions with this one

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Well they are a Creative Assembly
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif We don't want them to be that creative... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif




Quote[/b] ]Though the bull was venerated in Iberia, I think CA are playing more on the internationally recognised fact that the modern Spanish love their bulls.
Preciselly my point... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif




Quote[/b] ]A great Iberian description
GREAT? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif Well, it sure is looooong...




Quote[/b] ]I'm not sure the Iberians ever had such large horns on their helms, if any...particualry with a disk between them.
Preciselly. I'm sure they didn't have such a ridiculous helm... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif

[Catiline]

Fine, apart from that ridiculous helmet. The Iberians had enough distinctive head gear with out this sort of nonsense.

I think the greaves issue is just texturing, they haven't used the polygons to extend them above the knee. lose the daft headgear and use the polygons there.

[Nelson]

Hopefully some clever fellow will mod this headgear. And the Egyptian skins too for that matter.

[RisingSun]

The horns remind me very much of Isis... Silly...

If you think one looks bad, think of a units of these guys. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif It will like like a hedgehog, and not in the good phalanx type of way...

[RZST]

i wonder if they can use their helmet to "charge" the enemy o.o; like bulls...err http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

its probably a spoof unit,becuase when i think of bull i think of the spanish bull festival,where they release a a raging bull and you run away,you might also get injured or killed.

Oh also did'nt the spanish used an armor peircing sword called the falcata?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Oh also did'nt the spanish used an armor peircing sword called the falcata?
The falcata is a double curved single edged sword of Indo-European origin. So, it was used by such different people as the Lusitanos, Celtiberians, Greeks and the Arian invaders of India. But it was just a normal sword. No "armour-piercing" capabilities. You can check a modern reproduction here:

Falcata (http://www.imperialcoinc.com/Shared/vacia18.html)

EDIT: I've been reading some about the falcata and seems that I was wrong. The falcata is, according to some Spanish specialists, a sword of Iberian origin. It was "discovered" by Greek traders in Iberia and adopted by Greeks due to their famous cutting qualities and resistance. So much, in fact, that it became the prefered
sword of Greek armies.

On the other hand, Greek specialists say that it was of Hellenic origin, was brought to Iberia and then copied by Iberians.

However, strangely, I've found that a slightly longer sword of very similar design, was used extensivelly throughout the ages in India. Probably since Ancient times. So, it's up to you, to find out which historical interpretation is correct... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

[Rosacrux]

More creative crap... oh, well... we are indeed getting used to it...

Might I say that my incredibly hugely over-enthousiastic anticipation (eagerness, actually) of RTW coming (sort of a "second coming"), has diminished over the last couple of months to a monotonous "let's see whats the next absurdity they are going to throw upon us, on their effort to win the hearts of the 12year old console-huggers and the money of their fathers"? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Nelson @ Mar. 12 2004,22:10)]Hopefully some clever fellow will mod this headgear. And the Egyptian skins too for that matter.
Nowake is quite full of this. As Rosacrux said, this is becoming routine. The forumers hope for the modders to solve problems before the game is even released .. It all falls into an idiotic sincretism that Creative Assembly hopes will draw the throngs of players which they loose because they intentionally neglect MP. It's such a shame that the Total War series have come to this.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Want to see the real Celtiberian?

Chek this out:

Celtiberian Warriors (http://www.historialago.com/leg_iber_01025_guerreros_01.htm)

[shingenmitch2]

I'm with Cataline completely on this...

the good:
the breastplate, tunic, shield... all look good.

the sword -- it is correct... "gladius hispanicus" the romans modeled their off this. However, CI's did use the falcata as well. They also (and this may come with other units) had an all iron throwing javelin.

the bad...
Ummmm never seen a helmet like that before. It sure does look like a viking/isis cross-breed for the kiddies. What sux is Cataline is absolutely right... the Celti Iberians had a bunch of VERY cool helmets. Why resort to making one up? I will NEVER understand when games/movies make an uneeded switch. Just seems lazy, or like the developer has watched too much Star Trek, or some Marketer has head up a$$...

This is very much like Russel Crowe in Gladiator... what the MANY types of real gladiator helmets weren't cool enough for Ridley Scott that they had to invent a batman one? The friggin "Thrax" is awesome...

GAH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Kraxis]

Considering that there is basically only two types of soldier described in the old texts (now I'm relying other people's statements, so I would in fact be happy to see it be proved wrong), people with scuta and people with the samller roud shield.

With that in mind CA has to be creative.

As I see the unit, I see it as an ahistorical unit, but a possible unit. I would not be surprised to be told there were actually Celtiberians that were dressed and equipped like this, I just don't think so. The possiblity is enough for me when there is so little to draw on.

But of course the helmet needs to be toned down, but I think it is because of its Elite status it has that crazy helmet. It needs to look different from the average footchuckers, not that I like the helmet. Just pointing out that they most likely know it is not accurate.

I'm certain the all iron javelin will be in the game with some other Celtiberian unit.

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ Mar. 15 2004,04:20)]The forumers hope for the modders to solve problems before the game is even released .. It all falls into an idiotic sincretism that Creative Assembly hopes will draw the throngs of players which they loose because they intentionally neglect MP. It's such a shame that the Total War series have come to this.
This forumer believes if the unit skins are modifiable then this will come to pass. If it is a problem as you say then it can be rectified for the few of us who will notice. Most buyers won’t care. CA has always included a few “far out” unit types. Remember the Japanese crossbowman and battlefield ninja in MI? Those two units bugged the hell out of me. I played MI anyway. I don’t flog that horse anymore. This time we get the flaming pigs (Used how many times in antiquity?) and the bull warriors and Ramses’ own pedjets. There is nothing new about made up units. Total War hasn't come to this. It hasn't moved. It isn't everything I want it to be but it hasn't gotten worse. It's improved a lot.

As for “the throngs of players which they loose because they intentionally neglect MP”, this is poppycock. CA does not neglect MP. Online battles would not be there if they did. This type of game has never and will never lend itself to vast numbers of MP fans. If MP disappeared all together sales would still be good. If the SP campaign went away, everyone at CA would be looking for a new job. SPers outnumber MPers by a massive margin.

[Nowake]

Remember the Japanese crossbowman and battlefield ninja in MI? Those two units bugged the hell out of me.


Well, the battlefield ninja really existed Nelson. IIRC, in the Anne river battle, against the Asai and Asakura forces, Nobunaga was targeted by the special ninja corps of the Asai who tried to kill him. Of course, they haven't reached even near Nobunaga, but they were there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The fact is that they fought more independently, not in groups of 12-24 warriors.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Nelson @ Mar. 16 2004,15:30)]
Quote[/b] (Nowake @ Mar. 15 2004,04:20)]The forumers hope for the modders to solve problems before the game is even released .. It all falls into an idiotic sincretism that Creative Assembly hopes will draw the throngs of players which they loose because they intentionally neglect MP. It's such a shame that the Total War series have come to this.
This forumer believes if the unit skins are modifiable then this will come to pass. If it is a problem as you say then it can be rectified for the few of us who will notice. Most buyers won’t care. CA has always included a few “far out” unit types. Remember the Japanese crossbowman and battlefield ninja in MI? Those two units bugged the hell out of me. I played MI anyway. I don’t flog that horse anymore. This time we get the flaming pigs (Used how many times in antiquity?) and the bull warriors and Ramses’ own pedjets. There is nothing new about made up units. Total War hasn't come to this. It hasn't moved. It isn't everything I want it to be but it hasn't gotten worse. It's improved a lot.

As for “the throngs of players which they loose because they intentionally neglect MP”, this is poppycock. CA does not neglect MP. Online battles would not be there if they did. This type of game has never and will never lend itself to vast numbers of MP fans. If MP disappeared all together sales would still be good. If the SP campaign went away, everyone at CA would be looking for a new job. SPers outnumber MPers by a massive margin.
Don't see why http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

As Nowake explained, the Battlefield Ninja existed in History, although probably in a different way than presented in the game.

As for the Ashigaru Crossbowmen, you must remember that the Chinese used crossbows since 400BC. Japanese culture was, during a long time, influenced by Chinese culture. Accordingly, Military influence also occured.

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

Yes, BFN did exist, and were used by Mori Motonari several times.


could anyone post a link to some pics of the "real" Iberian helmets?

[shingenmitch2]

"With that in mind CA has to be creative.
As I see the unit, I see it as an ahistorical unit, but a possible unit. I would not be surprised to be told there were actually Celtiberians that were dressed and equipped like this, I just don't think so. The possiblity is enough for me when there is so little to draw on"


No, that is exactly my point, they don't HAVE to be creative... why INVENT a helmet, when the Celt Iberians have at least 5 different types that existed and are very cool?

Hell, it takes more work to invent something than use what is already there.

BTW if u read my post, I said that they were dressed like that (and praised CA for it) and I also noted that the javelin will probably be used on another CI unit.

[Galestrum]

Yeah, it is always sad when hollywood, games or some other medium decides to make something new and sexy which always ends up retarded and boring http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

history is filled with great peoples and cultures - anything a human can dream up now has already been done a million times, just take the time to look and youll find something spectacular from history and superior to something dreamed up.

on a side note, hear in the US on the discovery channel there was a show called "battles in time" and hosted by the actor james woods, well tonight it was about the battle of actium and in it they showed cleopatra doing some religious functions and she and the priestesses wore the exact same helmut as the iberian bull riders unit lol so according to that the whole "isis helmut on the spaniard theory" appears correct here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Sword of Cao Cao @ Mar. 17 2004,12:09)]Yes, BFN did exist, and were used by Mori Motonari several times.


could anyone post a link to some pics of the "real" Iberian helmets?
Try this:

Celtiberian Warriors (http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos.htm)

[spmetla]

As much as I hate the fantasy units it's not too bad that they add them in. Things like flaming pigs will create new factors that we can mod for other units, elephants(I realize these aren't fantasy) crashing through infantry can allow us to give heavy cavalry crash bonuses as well. And it will draw new players to the Total War series and seeing as this is a business it will bring new business.

I have a friend in the room next to me that would never buy a game with dacian warbanders, dacian petlasts but he'd love a game with dacian 10 foot tall axe throwing fire breathing warrior demi god of death (remeber the size of the Kensais).

Although these sheep like fairly historically ignorant grouop of people I'd rather not see playing RTW they will however create the profit that make CA think it's worth continueing the series with an expansion pack or a new installment of the series. As long as this doesn't lead to low quality filler products I'm happy.

And even though it's not an excuse for they're doing this with the organized and excellent modding community here at The Org we'll have a historically accurate version in no time and I can garuntee that MTW mods and STW mods will be made as well which will be F**king awesome. Also with the supposed easy modabilty of game I'll be able to do my own tweaks like I had in STW and MTW in all departments except 3D editing and animimations because that's just plain over my head.

And this should help those of you that can't get the Flash to work. I'll try get the rest of the images up later today.
http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/421472070/0.jpg

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (spmetla @ Mar. 18 2004,13:39)]As long as this doesn't lead to low quality filler products I'm happy.
That's exactly one of the possible problems...



Quote[/b] ]And even though it's not an excuse for they're doing this with the organized and excellent modding community here at The Org we'll have a historically accurate version in no time and I can garuntee that MTW mods and STW mods will be made as well which will be F**king awesome.
Let's hope so. Let's hope we can do it...



Quote[/b] ] Also with the supposed easy modabilty of game I'll be able to do my own tweaks like I had in STW and MTW in all departments except 3D editing and animimations because that's just plain over my head.
Let's hope for that too. MTW has some impossible obstacles to pass. Remember GA?

[Kraxis]

Shingen, my post wasn't aimed at you, I normally try to include the nick or at least use a direct conversation style if I want to answer someone in particular.
I was being general, seeing how many that complained about the guy.

(being general again)
It seems to me that most people are mostly annoyed with the helmet and 'the lack of a historical counterpart'. Problem is that there is only two historical units (if we discount the Balearic Slingers) and thus the lack of a historical counterpart is not a problem to me as long as he is equipped fairly correctly (only the helmet is out of place, and then only some as horned helmets were used).

As to the former units that were ahistorical.
Yes BFNs were used, but no crossbows were used in warfare in Japan, it seems. There have been no founds and no references. So it is not that they were likely, but there was no need for them, unlike the Bull Warriors.
And what about the Byzantine Infantry? Or the Vikings? Or the Futuwwa? Or the... Or the... I could go on.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]It seems to me that most people are mostly annoyed with the helmet and 'the lack of a historical counterpart'. Problem is that there is only two historical units (if we discount the Balearic Slingers) and thus the lack of a historical counterpart is not a problem to me as long as he is equipped fairly correctly (only the helmet is out of place, and then only some as horned helmets were used).
2? Are you sure about that? What about light and heavy cav? The Celtiberians had them. And javelin skirmishers too for that matter...



Quote[/b] ]As to the former units that were ahistorical.
Yes BFNs were used, but no crossbows were used in warfare in Japan, it seems. There have been no founds and no references. So it is not that they were likely, but there was no need for them, unlike the Bull Warriors.
And what about the Byzantine Infantry? Or the Vikings? Or the Futuwwa? Or the... Or the... I could go on.
Bull Warriors were used? What the hell was a Bull Warrior? The most exact name would be Celtiberian Swordsman or Celtiberian Infantry...

Byzantine Infantry = Skutatoi
Vikings = the most aproximative is the free farmers that engaged in pillage expeditions (Karls).
Futuwwa = this one you are right. But they existed nonetheless. They weren't archers, but mounted noblemen. Muslim knights effectivelly. Just ask Sinan, Cebei or Faisal.

[Kraxis]

I never said that Bull Warriors were used...

I took Hakonarson (I think) at face value when he said that there were only two types of infantry presented in the ancient texts when it came to the Celtiberians.
When it comes to direct sourcing he is seldomly wrong. Light infantry was part of these units he mentioned, but I got the feeling that there were different kinds of them, but that they were not explained in any way.

Of course there were cavalry of various kinds.

Skutatoi were spearmen, and would most likely have been named so. Also a reference to the ancient legions would not be very good.

While I accept that CA had to cut corners, and I liked the way they did it with most units, it doesn't change the fact that they did it.

Ghazi, weren't either a group like this. Neither were Nizari. Sergeants were normally mounted. The list is long.

So what seems to have been acceptable for MTW isn't now for RTW.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Mar. 23 2004,12:48)]I never said that Bull Warriors were used...
OK.



Quote[/b] ]I took Hakonarson (I think) at face value when he said that there were only two types of infantry presented in the ancient texts when it came to the Celtiberians.
When it comes to direct sourcing he is seldomly wrong. Light infantry was part of these units he mentioned, but I got the feeling that there were different kinds of them, but that they were not explained in any way.

Of course there were cavalry of various kinds.
Just by curiosity, check this:

Los Iberos (http://www.historialago.com/leg_iber_01025_guerreros_01.htm)

Lusitanian Weapons (http://www.viriatus.com/Lusitanos_02.asp)



Quote[/b] ]Skutatoi were spearmen, and would most likely have been named so. Also a reference to the ancient legions would not be very good.
Skutatoi were what every other spearmen unit was all throughtout the ages: they used spears as well as swords according to necessity.



Quote[/b] ]While I accept that CA had to cut corners, and I liked the way they did it with most units, it doesn't change the fact that they did it.
Correct. But nothing ridiculous like that stupid helmet or innacurate like non-ptolomeic Egyptyan units (Third Kingdom Egypt had been gone for nearly 1000years).



Quote[/b] ]Ghazi, weren't either a group like this.
In fact, Ghazi existed just like that. They were a Turkish unit and known by the name of Baltaci.



Quote[/b] ]Neither were Nizari.
I have to ask Faisal, Sinan or Cebei for that...



Quote[/b] ]So what seems to have been acceptable for MTW isn't now for RTW.
Wrong. The blunders in RTW are bigger than in MTW. Besides, any project should improve it's qualities, not downgrade them...

[Kraxis]

About the two Spanish infantry. Look here at page three (http://pub133.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessageRange?topicID=3297.topic&start=41&stop=60).

With that in mind they could take whatever equipment has been dug out of the earth or shown on images, and add them to a unit. That unit would most likely never have existed, and would most likely not have a correct name, but at least it would be a possible unit. And the Bull Warriors are just that, possible with an odd helmet. But if the helmet is the only thing out of place I say ok.

The helmet while I don't like it, I think I know where it comes from. The 'unknown' Elites units need to be more visible, or at least that is what the marketing department thinks. Remember the horns on the Joms?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Mar. 23 2004,15:39)]But if the helmet is the only thing out of place I say ok.

The helmet while I don't like it, I think I know where it comes from. The 'unknown' Elites units need to be more visible, or at least that is what the marketing department thinks. Remember the horns on the Joms?
But that is preciselly my point Why the innacurate helmet when almost anything else is right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif

Why invent, when Celtiberians had such beautifull bronze helmets for "elite" units? Why aglutinate an Egyptian Solar Disc with something taken out of Norse Fantasy like a helmet with horns? That is what I don't understand... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif

[Kraxis]

That I can't explain to myself, even less you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

But take a look at the thread from the com I posted. At the last part of page 3 and the beginning of page 4 Orleander Ardens speaks of the disk and that it existed although in a smaller version. If he is right then we should all sit back and smile. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif
Actually I asked him to come here and upload the pic he says he has. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Mar. 23 2004,18:59)]That I can't explain to myself, even less you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

But take a look at the thread from the com I posted. At the last part of page 3 and the beginning of page 4 Orleander Ardens speaks of the disk and that it existed although in a smaller version. If he is right then we should all sit back and smile. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif
Actually I asked him to come here and upload the pic he says he has. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Well, if he has one, I would like to see it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif

[Hurin_Rules]

Well, they seem to have gotten the 'bull' right, but that's about it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

As you probably know, I'm one of the guys researching historical Iberian and Celtiberian units for Europa Barbarorum.

Here you can find my conclusions. They are by no means definitive, or to be understood as an academic study on the Iberian Peninsula's armies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

However, they are based on hard facts and, at the very least, credible (scroll to the 12th post):

EB - Iberian and Celtiberian Units (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=3&t=14218&st=150&&#entry254659)