The truth about Mp Campaign

[Swoosh So]

Well after the recent hotbed of speculation about the possibility of a multi player campaign i feel its time to say this...


Did most of you know that the only thing stopping a multiplayer campaign in mtw is an input output text file to allow the playing of battles online? YES a simple text file compatible with the army selection screen on the multiplayer foyer

CA programmers if i may ask i know you wont make this possible for mtw (its too late now) But why not keep the -ian command and allow us this 1 small feature for Rome total war? All you have to do is to make the file outputted at the save game screen before battle starts in the campaign we save the game then input the file once the battle has been fought online Please consider this as its such a small thing and it would do so much for many players in the community.

Even if you wont iinclude this in rome total war cculd you please post here stating why?


Swooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

[Puzz3D]

The inability to field a preset army in multiplayer with partial units is the biggest thing preventing players from seting up their own multiplayer campaign. Half of this is already in the game with the logfile that's created after a battle. The logfile represents an army stack on the strategy map, but inputting that logile, which contains the results from previous battles, into the next battle is missing. You would also have to be able to move units between logfiles and possibly combine partial units, but a tool could be made to do that by someone in the community.

[Gregoshi]

Such a feature would not only be great for a MP campaign, but also for creating set scenarios for online play. This latter use would be great for certain types of tournaments - some of the proposed ideas for Storm_Of_Shields Total War Olympics comes to mind.

It should be a relatively small task to add such a feature (he said, trivializing the effort) but it has such a huge potential for the online community. The SP campaign (army composition) and historical campaigns/battles (army composition and position) already have and use the necessary information the MP game would need, it just needs import/export capabilities for external use.

This reminds me of the saying:

Quote[/b] ]Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Come on CA, teach us to fish...eh, and you need to provide some of the equipment too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif

[Crazed Rabbit]

Maybe they just holding out on us for the expansion pack, which would only have one new feature-the ability to play campaigns online-and cost $40, and of course we'd lap it up like thirsty puppies. And then we'd get mad at the crappy gamespy support:
"A player has not touched his mouse for 60 seconds, or has lost his connection, or one of our workers wants to sadistically play with your fragile minds, so the game is going to crash and your CD will burn up in your computer. Good day."
And, of course, we'd go out and buy another CD for the expansion.
Seriously, the way the game is set up now, as I understand it, only one player can take a turn at a time, so even one turn would take very long. IF they could change it so all players go at once, or let us PBEM, it would be shorter.

Good luck,
Crazed Rabbit

[Puzz3D]

I think we are talking about playing the strategy part offline with a website showing the map and player's holdings, and the battles online. I already participated in a campaign set up like that, and it was fine except we had to have a complicated numeric system to account for not being able to field partial units from previous battles. Lots of diplomatic negotiating went on with the other players via email or in the foyer, and this was the best part of the game. Diplomacy was at least as important as battlefield skill if not more so. When all the moves were in for the current turn, we played out any battles online. I think it was about one turn per 5 days or so, but it wasn't the only thing players were doing because we still played just battles online as we do now. Playing battles in the context of a campaign that you had put lots of effort into put an edge on them which isn't there in casual games. Also, if someone had to drop out of the campaign, there were other players willing to step in and take over, and you could have battlefield generals conduct the battles for you if you just wanted to play the strategic part, although I don't think anyone did that in the campaign I was in.

[Nigel]

Well, there seem to be two issues here - two different ways of making a MP campaign work.

One is where all players log on at the same time and play several turns in a single session. This brings about all the questions of "What do the other ppl do if two players are having a battle" etc. And in a different post CA mentioned some techincal hurdles with this type of MP campaign.

Quote[/b] ]... a 'baton' is passed at the end of a faction's turn to the next faction to move - it would take forever .... you spend at least 95% of your time waiting for other people to have a go...


On the other hand, there is the option of playing that Puzz3D has described, where you do the strategic part offline and go online only for the battles. This way, of course a turn takes several days. But games like this would be more involved with diplomacy than just the building and fighting. And that would be the main part of the fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif


If I get Swoosh right, it would be quite simple to make the second way of MPC possible. Not sure if they have realized this distinction at CA. Where do we post this, to make sure someone reads it in time ?

Nigel

[Puzz3D]

Nigel,

All you can do is post on the forums and hope CA picks up on it. However, this idea of offline multiplayer campaign has been requested for over 3 years now. So, I don't think it stands much of a chance of making it into RTW even thought it seems like it would be relatively simple to implement.

I mean we can't even have a feature like preset armies. I can save a preset army in custom battle, but I can't use that in multiplayer. You have to pick the army unit by unit every time you enter a battle even if it's exactly the same as the army you just used for the last battle. Maybe there is concern about possible cheating using such a feature, but it seems to me doing some checks on the units being input to the battle would prevent cheating.

[Dionysus9]

yup--we've been asking for this stuff for ages and never see any movement toward it. I abandoned hope a long time ago--but it doesn't hurt to keep pestering them about it if you have the energy (which I dont).

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ Mar. 13 2004,12:15)]Did most of you know that the only thing stopping a multiplayer campaign in mtw is an input output text file to allow the playing of battles online? YES a simple text file compatible with the army selection screen on the multiplayer foyer
Ahhh... I wondered why no-one had tried to create an online interface to the campaign before... it is being held back by the lack of predefined armies in multiplayer battles

I posted something about creating an online multiplayer campaign interface in the dungeon (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=16648) but had no reply to it.

Well, if anyone thinks of a way around the lack of predefined armies in multiplayer battles let me know.

[Nigel]

A lot of people have thought aobout this and tried many different way. A good one is for example a campaign played by ShadesWolf and his friend. It is mentioned here (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=24;t=9870;st=25).

I too have tried to think up many ways of overcoming the limitations of the game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

Well, the only thing I have come up with so far is that you do the MP games at 99k and trust every player to only select the troops he should have accordig to the campaign (easily checked). Then, after the battle, everyone has to merge troops as much as possible and for incomplete units make a decision to eigther fill up the ranks for a certain cost or disband the unit (perhaps getting paied out their value in Florins). It's not perfect, but I think it would kind of work.

[TonkaToys]

Thanks Nigel, looks like ShadesWolf did a lot of work on that. I'd be interested to know whether the game was moderated by a human, or whether any automation was used to handle movement commands etc.

Good idea on the after affects of battle... partial units would have to be disbanded, merged or filled.

[Puzz3D]

Nigel,

We used that same type of cost system in Elmark's multiplayer campaign. He moderated the campaign manually on a website with a strategic map with provinces that showed ownership with various colors, and private pages showing each player's troops and buildings. It was very labor intensive for him.

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ April 02 2004,14:44)]We used that same type of cost system in Elmark's multiplayer campaign. He moderated the campaign manually on a website with a strategic map with provinces that showed ownership with various colors, and private pages showing each player's troops and buildings. It was very labor intensive for him.
Yeah, I thought it would be labour intensive, that's why I had a quick go at sticking a computer in the mix.

Otherwise I guess it would be a nightmare to remember where troops, factions, provinces, buildings etc were, and trying to get people to take their turn would be a bugger if they thought they could send you begging emails to extend their go.

At least with an automated system you for example could say tue-thu to finish your campaign moves, fri-sun to complete your battles, mon to post your results. No exceptions.

You could even auto-resolve battles that were not fought in multiplayer... if you could figure out a fair calculation based on units and valour, etc.

[Nigel]

Yes, the thing that is so labour intensive is the tracking of troops across the land (and buildings if you include that aspect, too).

Drawing the map for each turn is not too bad, once you have the basic map and some "sprites".
I tried it in a MP campaign in my Stronghold days.

And yes again, it can be pretty bothersome to get everyone to complete their move in time. A week is a short span for this once the campaign gets into full swing. You certainly want definite deadlines, and perhaps the possibility to autoresolve battles. It may also be a good idea to allow your friends to act as generals who can fight your battles for you if you are too busy with real live.


Tonka, I had a look at your troop moving program http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Very nice
Do you think it could be made so that each player only sees this own troops ? On the other hand it may not be too bad to play a campaign with "open cards". Less surprise, but more strategic thinking ahead - like a chess game. And possibly less accusations of cheating http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Do you also think you could make a tool like this for merging partial units? Perhaps with a cell that also shows the cost for filling those which remain (I know I am getting a bit demanding here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ).

In any case, I think tools like this can take a lot of pain out of the campaign for the gamemaster.

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (Nigel @ April 02 2004,16:42)]Yes, the thing that is so labour intensive is the tracking of troops across the land (and buildings if you include that aspect, too)... You certainly want definite deadlines, and perhaps the possibility to autoresolve battles... It may also be a good idea to allow your friends to act as generals who can fight your battles for you if you are too busy with real live.
Good idea... would work nicely to reduce the amount of time needed for battles, as each army's battle could be fought by the general in charge. Also would allow Strategic people and Tactical people to work together... think of the fun you could have with heirs Oops there goes the King, OK whoever was the heir is now the guy making the strategic decisions.


Quote[/b] ]Tonka, I had a look at your troop moving program http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Very nice

Cheers mate. PS: did you notice the sea movement bit... I especially like that bit.


Quote[/b] ]
Do you think it could be made so that each player only sees this own troops...


No problem, provided everyone had a sign on.


Quote[/b] ]
... a tool like this for merging partial units? Perhaps with a cell that also shows the cost for filling those which remain... In any case, I think tools like this can take a lot of pain out of the campaign for the gamemaster.

I don't see why not, as long as we figured out the rules in advance.

[Swoosh So]

What baffles me is that all we need is a little helping hand from ca but none is offered sigh*

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ April 05 2004,15:37)]What baffles me is that all we need is a little helping hand from ca but none is offered sigh*
True... I guess they are busy with their own small project at the moment
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Yonderboy asked elsewhere what would be needed to progress with a MP Campaign "mod" or extension. I guess we would need:
- graphics people
- game play designers (to decide how much of the single player campaign we try to put into the mp version)
- programmers (that have to do the hard work)
- some sort of project manager (to bully people)
- people that understand how to read in the files that players will need to submit as the results of their MP battles
- play testers (the lucky ones with the best job)
- etc etc

If you can think of any more let me know or even if I should bother trying to progress this.

[Swoosh So]

Tonkatoys where is your mod available the wolves ears are perked

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ April 07 2004,18:29)]Tonkatoys where is your mod available the wolves ears are perked
Hey Swoosh

sorry about the delay in replying... been off looking after first baby

Anyway, the "mod" is rough at the moment... more of an example text based proof of concept thingie.

It is on http://www.hitchintriangle.org/tw/start.asp

I hope to get a bit of time to make it more graphics based as the next step.

[TonkaToys]

Still working on the backend stuff, but have done a quick demo of the troop movement interface (http://www.hitchintriangle.org/tw/map.html)... will probably have to change graphics to avoid copyright problems

Try moving the English army around... click once to select, and again to drop. Note there is no error checking yet, so you can drop them in the sea.

Top text box shows the province your mouse is over.
Middle text box shows mouse coords over map.
Lower box shows either: selected when you first click the army, dropped when you drop them otherwise coordinates of the army.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

[Nigel]

Great Tonka,

I like what you've done with that map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Maybe the Moderators can help us out on the copyright questons here.
I mean, we are all posting screenshots from the game all over the place. And by modifying them we turn them into our own bits of art. So I don't think we are violating any copyrights here. That's my thoughts, anyway.

Nigel

[TonkaToys]

True re: copyright, also non-profit making and hopefully will promote purchase of TW series, so CA might turn a blind eye?

Duke John has suggested adapting the system to his War Of The Roses mod, over in The Guild » The Dungeon » Alchemist lab » Multiplayer Campaign thread.

It would be a simpler system and would allow me to get something going much quicker than if I tried to implement a tech tree straight away.

[Nikodil]

Re: Copyright

Fortunately, the software license contains a section on New Game Materials, that grant's you to use artwork and other resources for non-profit use, provided it is used in combination with the retail version of MTW. So it's perfectly allright to use it for an online MPC.

[TonkaToys]

Smart In that case the only thing I might do to simplify matters is resize the graphics so I don't have to keep scaling the map and so you can pickup the troops wherever they are.

Thanks for the other info btw.
Any help welcomed

[SwordsMaster]

Quote[/b] ]This reminds me of the saying:
Quote
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.


Come on CA, teach us to fish...eh, and you need to provide some of the equipment too.

--------------


That reminds me of another saying.:

Make a man a fire and he'll be warm one night.Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Not the same meaning tho, dont get confused... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[TonkaToys]

Duke John and I were talking about using my multi-player campaign system for your WotR mod... I've posted a reply in The Alchemists Lab / Multiplayer Campaign. (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=16648)

I'll try to keep all future updates in there.

[Palamedes of Sarras]

Tonka,

Very nice stuff. I would appreciate any help on "The Warrior Isles" online campaign which started this week. Its intention is a clan v clan campaign with Ronin Gamers as Mercenaries for hire.

If you have any time you can read about it here..........

http://totalwars.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2826

If you dont mind I may bombard you with questions, or if you whish to assist with some hands on feel free to get in touch at Palamedes_of_Sarras@hotmail.com


Palamedes

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (Palamedes of Sarras @ May 27 2004,22:49)]Tonka,

Very nice stuff. I would appreciate any help on "The Warrior Isles" online campaign which started this week. Its intention is a clan v clan campaign with Ronin Gamers as Mercenaries for hire.

If you have any time you can read about it here..........

http://totalwars.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2826

If you dont mind I may bombard you with questions, or if you whish to assist with some hands on feel free to get in touch at Palamedes_of_Sarras@hotmail.com


Palamedes
Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

I'll happily accept any questions... do you mind posting them into The Alchemists Lab / Multiplayer Campaign. (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=16648) instead... so I can keep track of one thread?

Ta

TT

[Palamedes of Sarras]

Thanks Tonka,

I have sent you an email and we can discuss in more detail later. I will go to alchemist forum and ost there.

Palamedes

[Degtyarev14.5]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Mar 13 2004,02:23)]Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and he'll sit out in a boat all day drinking beer.

https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

A.

[Heinrich VI]

wow! im really impressed and love what your are doing. ive been waiting for something like this since i discovered that mtw offers no mp campaign (some 5 mins after i launched the game for the first time).

i well remember mp tools for colonization and civ2 (prior to the release of civ2 mp but after the awful buggy civnet).

this is really exciting! :jumping: