Scythed chariots

[Ludens]

After seeing the chariot race in Ben Hur again, I wondered whether scythed chariots were really used in history.

I know that Darius III used scythed chariots against Alexander the Great at the battle of Gaugamela. It wasn't the success Darius had hoped for: the Macedonian phalanx opened and let the chariots pass through to the rear, where they were dealt with by light infantry.

What were these scythed chariots? How could they be so dangerous that phalanx (a wall of pikes) had to open its formation?

[Seven.the.Hun]

wow, u mean a scythe as in like the grim reaper weapon???
used by cavalry?, hmm this would be an interesting one, sounds like it could be potentially lethal...sorry though as i am unaware of such a battle use in history, and i have not seen this movie you speak of.

[Trax]

Some info about Pontic scythed chariots can be found here.
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba58.html

[Seven.the.Hun]

good info, Trax, i didnt know all that much about the subject
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Ludens]

Seven.the.Hun, I have no idea what scythed chariots are and therefor I posted this, but I don't think that the scythe was used as a hand weapon. Scythes probably mean blades attached to the frame of the chariot.

Curiously, the Japanese did use a scythe like weapon for both cavalry and infantry. This weapons is called the naginata. You can find information and pictures in this thread in the sword dojo Warrior Monks, what weapon do they have? (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=12678). You need to scroll down a little before you find the more informative pictures and posts.

Thank you very much Thrax. The text suggests that scythed chariots were used in the 'middle east' ever since the Persians. Since this region was central in the war between Alexander's successors, they definitely had some value or else they wouldn't have survived that long. Their use seems to have been creating holes in close formations of heavy infantry. But I still can't imagine what would create a hole in a Macedonian phalanx when attacking frontally.
Apart from an elephant, that is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[Trax]

I have read that the horses were probably blindfolded and crashed into the enemy formations at full speed, the drivers on the other hand jumped down before impact and ran back behind friendly lines.

[Seven.the.Hun]

thanx ludens, and of course i'm well aware of the naginata, fantastic weapon,
i wasnt sure about the initial attack method referred to, so i kinda painted an interesting picture of cavalry using the weapon of the grim reaper himself, which as a weapon its methods would be quite different than the japanese naginata, and an interesting thought, as i am kinda unaware of such a weapon being used on a large scale in warfare of the past

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Hakonarson]

I think the battle of Ennium on the DBA resource page may be fantasy - there's no record on the web of any such battle. Plinny was not the only historian of the era and it would be a surprising omission from Caesar's own commentary - since he liked to "talk up" his opponents to make his won victories seem grander.

Certainly mithidatic chariots are recorded as running over roman infantry a few times - I recall on such mention where the men were said to be "overcome by the hideousness of the spectacle " or something like that, rather than the actual casualties - I dont' recall the source but I'll see if I can find it.

[solypsist]

people tend to think something with scythes on the wheels is as great as the baby cart in Lone Wolf and Cub. Nope.

scythed chariots weren't so great. you'll notice in the posted link by Trax, all the chariots do is break up the lines, which any unscythed chariot would have done anyway.

chariots were designed to circle the enemy and/or drop off a fresh soldier, or missile fire. if you drive your chariot into a mass of men, eventually your horses will get killed or you'll become clogged in the mass of enemy men and the chariot will be overturned. chariots were not designed for direct contact with the enemy. those that had scythes had them as a defensive feature (keep enemy from getting too close) but the impact was minimal.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ Mar. 15 2004,06:34)]those that had scythes had them as a defensive feature (keep enemy from getting too close) but the impact was minimal.
That was what I was looking for. Thank you solypsist


Quote[/b] ]you'll notice in the posted link by Trax, all the chariots do is break up the lines, which any unscythed chariot would have done anyway.
But why then did Darius III use scythed chariots against Alexander the Great's phalanx? Because I think the only result of a chariot attacking a phalanx frontally is a pair of impaled horses, scythes or not.

Seven.the.Hun,
Yes, a scythe would make a very impressive weapon, but I don't think it would be that effective. It is unwieldy and would suffer from an unfortunate tendency to get stuck behind things. Which is a bad thing if you are on a galloping horse, both for you and the thing it gets stuck behind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[Seven.the.Hun]

yeah, i'd go with ya on that one, but if i was advising such cav, better to make weapons as sharp as possible, and hell, make them carry along 2 or 3,
given the weapon, and the whole stuck into this or that, sharpness would aid in pulling weapon back, leaves them vulnerable on one side though, perhaps using some sorta shield would help with the off hand,
would be much similar to a naginata horseback troop indeed methinks, great for butchering those heavily armoured foot soldiers

[Hakonarson]

Solypist where on earth did you get the idea that scythes on chariots were defensive??

Scythed chariots were purely offensive - they only carried one crewman - the driver, and their entire purpose was to crash into enemy lines at a gallop.

There was no such thing as "only disorder" on the ancient battlefield - order was pretty much everythign and a disordered enemy was a vulnerable one.

Scythed chariots had plenty of problems, but did have their successes.

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Scythe Chariots were the original Kamikaze Planes.

(1) Get horses going fast;
(2) Aim at bad guys;
(3) Jump out of chariot;
(4) Wave bye-bye to horses and enemies' various limbs.

Not the most efficient way to deal with an enemy - but probably worth the price of admission.

//BW

scroll down to the lawn-mowers. (http://home.pacbell.net/ittybear/#Anchor_art)

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Mar. 15 2004,18:05)]Solypist where on earth did you get the idea that scythes on chariots were defensive??
from:

The Wars of the Ancient Greeks by V. D. Hanson (1999)

p.27-28.

It states that chariots were ideally used to mow down fleeing enemy, but otherwise are not effective shock/attack troops. though they were used this way by Darius against alexander, it states they "prove ineffective after one charge."

I suppose charging them into mobs or untrained groups of people would be effective, but I was thinking within the context of using chariots against trained/professional armies, in which case driving a chariot into a rank of enemy would not be cost effective.

I can't seem to find any record of these so-called "origianl kamikaze tactics", can you give me a source?

[Brutal DLX]

Why did they prove ineffective?

Apparently because the enemy countered by scattering or opening their lines.
There were quite a few types of chariots in the Ancient world, and not all were designed for indirect combat.

If the average infantryman saw a wave of chariots steering directly towards him, then "No worries, these are largely ineffective when charging infantry." would probably not be his preferred line of thinking. Ancient wars were not fought with cost effectiveness in mind, they were fought to destroy the enemy on the field or make them rout by any means possible.

[The Wizard]

Chariots were, for a time at least, the ancient world's tank. A group of infantry seeing a group of these four-horse-drawn chariots thundering at them head on, with dangerous blades on stomach-height, wouldn't just stand there and think "hey, it's just a flimsy chariot, it won't do anything."

It is a testimony to the discipline of Alexander III's troops, and his own ingenuity, that they could vanquish such weapons without much difficulty. Of course, the fact that they weren't just lightly-armored axemen with a cowleather shield anymore contributed to that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif



~Wiz

[squippy]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no reliable information giving an actual description of chariots being used in any form of melee at all. And I have looked, becuase they intrigue me.

I think its quite probable that some chariots some where had defensive blades on wheels... but I cannot accept they were even really intended to be struck. After all, you;d be applying force to the most important part of the chariot - the wheel and the axle.

Its most likely that the chariot only was effective in the very early ancient period in which formed infantry did not exist, and the horses on chariots could disperse mobs. But mostly, chariots were an archery platform.

If anyone has any solid info on chariots in melee, I'd be very keen to see it.

[Nowake]

The chinese used the scythed chariots in the Warring states period. The crew would be formed from 2-3 men, the driver, the nobleman and a crossbowman. Behind them some 80 infantry would follow, ready to pour into the gap opened by the chariot.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

People here are forgetting one important aspect:

-There were several types of Chariots.

As an example, Late Kingdom Egyptian chariots were very lightly constructed, fast, pulled by 2 horses and carried a driver and an archer. They were exclusivelly a skirmisher unit. Remember Rameses II chariot at Kadesh?

As another example, Hitites used heavy chariots. They were pulled by 3 horses, much heavier built, slow to manouver, carrying a driver and 2 heavilly armoured spearmen. They were heavy tanks to use as a fortress while mowing down infantry.

So, you can't make a general statement of what a chariot was, what was it used for and in what way.

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Banzai


Quote[/b] ] Darius unleases his scythed-chariots
[Translator's note: This led to countermoves by Alexander and precipitated a general cavalry engagement; the Greeks suffered severely, but sustained the assaults, and] assailing the enemy violently squadron by squadron, succeeded in pushing them out of rank. Meanwhile the Barbarians launched the scythed-chariots against Alexander himself, to throw his phalanx into confusion; but in this they were grievously deceived. For as soon as they approached the [Macedonian] javelin men, who had been posted in front of the 'Companion' cavalry, hurled their darts at some of the horses; others they seized by the reins and pulled the drivers off, and standing round the horses killed them. Yet some got right through the ranks; for the men stood apart, and opened their ranks, as they had been taught, wherever the chariots attacked. Thus commonly the chariots went through safely, and their drivers were unhurt, but the [rear guard] later overpowered them.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/alexander.htm

OK - they were more kamikaze than I thought - they went down with the ship...

//BW

[squippy]

OK so thats one actual source, Arrian, for chariots used in melee. It was also a spectacular failure in exactly the way that just considering the use of chariots might indicate. So, any other sources that this was a viable tactic?

I really am intrigues by this. I agree, for exampoe, that we have original depictions of Chinese troops wielding big poleaxes from the very early period. It's just rather unclear how anyone goes about fighting effectively from a chariot. This is why the two dominant theories are that of rapid infantry deployment (Britons) and archery platform (Egyption). I have read many who think the armoured Sumerian chariots were mostly status symbols rather than effective weapons.

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Recall that Famous Battles are famous because something out of the ordinairy happened. The Romans fought lots of battles, but we all like to hear about Hannibal (when the unexpected happened).

In order for troops to be trained to get out of the way there must have been some initial getting in the way...

Using the WAYBACK MACHINE we can take a look at exactly what happened.

Chariots: :::rumble towards enemy:::

Warrior#1: Think we should get out of the way?
Warrior#2: Nah.

General : :::watches 1 and 2 mowed down::::
General : :::Note to self: remember to move troops out of way of the big slicey spinny bladey things.:::

//BW

[Hakonarson]

There are numerous accounts of scythed chariots in action - apparently a mithridatic army used them and light troops only to defeat a Bithynian army at one stage, while I think in Xenephon's "A history or my times" 400 Persian cavalry and 2 scythed chariots defeat 700 hoplites after teh chariots drive through them disordering them as they were trying to form up.

There's an account in one of the "lives" of Romans being ridden over by Pontic chariots that I mentioned before but haven't found the source for.

Duncan Head recounts the Persian and Pontic successes I mentioned above with the note that the chariots in each case were closely supported by other troops that could exploit their charge.

[Hakonarson]

Try this link:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin....ds=type (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?target=en%2C1&collection=Perseus%3Acollection%3AGreco-Roman&lookup=scythes&formentry=1&template=&.submit=Search&searchText=&extern=1&group=collcat&.cgifields=alts&.cgifields=group&.cgifields=extern&.cgifields=type)

it is a word search for "scythes" at Perseus & gives you a range of results - appian and Herodotus are on page 1, Xenephon on page 2.

I made an error in my previous post - the trops overwhelmed by the spectacle of the scythes striking were the Bithynians defeated - not Romans as I'd thought - the reference is hte first one in the link above.

Another link is a search for the term "scythed":

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin....=extern (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?target=en%2C1&collection=Perseus%3Acollection%3AGreco-Roman&lookup=scythed&formentry=1&template=&.submit=Search&searchText=&extern=1&group=work&.cgifields=group&.cgifields=alts&.cgifields=type&.cgifields=extern)

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (BlackWatch McKenna @ Mar. 18 2004,14:51)]In order for troops to be trained to get out of the way there must have been some initial getting in the way...
Thats OK, you learn that as a kid. I discovered this not too long ago while facing down a cop on a horse at a demo. Every instinct tells you to get out of the way, there is no special training needed. The special training is needed to stand there and take it on.