View Full Version : Caledonia Total War mod

Duke Malcolm
11-27-2003, 18:46
If anyone is interested, I am making a new mod, and although I have enquired about certain things to do with this mod before, it seems as though the power of christ compelled me to start a topic about my mod, as many seem to have done before. It will be start when Scotland turned into the country we don't know and love today, when it changed from Albany or something, to Scotland, and looked relatively like modern Scotland. I am open to suggestions, for anything, and if anyone wants to help (which I doubt) then they can. But now, I have to go and become a qualified first-aider with the St Andrew's Ambulance Association, and will be back on tomorrow, at 4 o'clock.

11-28-2003, 00:20
u talking about a scotland with highland clans and each having provinces and lowland families with their lands?

if u are then i am interested.

11-28-2003, 00:24
when you put it that way Jagmaster it does seem pretty good

Lord De Moray
11-28-2003, 11:00
Hi all,

I take this would require a whole new map?

'the Northern Scot'

Lord De Moray

11-28-2003, 11:26
I did plenty of preliminary research on a clan based Scottish Jacobite rebellion total war thingee with clansmen vs redcoats. The map stopped me cold unfortunately as any mapping efforts I've made have CTD more times than I can remember and I don't care to bust my comp up. So if you're working on one I can help you out there.


11-28-2003, 11:51
Well I don't think a Scottish map would be a big job ... If you have the map, the info for it (rivers landscapes, etc), Clan lands (political situation). You can put a Request in the Mapping Library Project thread.

I would recommend a map the would reach at least till the midlands with the East part of Ireland and the northern islands.

11-28-2003, 17:47
That would be cool I was actually toying with using either the Europe map or Barocca's Shogun map as a stopgap. Yeah it should reach at least as far south as... London?


Duke Malcolm
11-28-2003, 17:56
Hi. If you want to know, I can now treat a broken foot, but anyways, I have a satellite map, which has a bit of Ireland (as far east as donegal, letterkenny I think. I have put in some regions (Tayside, Fife, Stirling, Caithness, Kintyre,Arran, Uist, Harris, Lewis (one of the two latter is in 2 parts), Skye, and Ireland), although I am having a bit of trouble, where LMM doesn't recognise mainland Scotland regions (Aaaargh) and stops when it writes the maptex files. But nevertheless, other work is going on fine (with the exception of clan flags, and shields, because I think that I might have to apply to the Court of the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, and even then I could only use the MacDonald, and I am a bit worried about being sued by Clan Chiefs if I use them anyway from the net)

Duke Malcolm
11-28-2003, 18:04
And it goes as far south as Carlisle or something, it goes a good bit south, at least to Carlisle I think, but not to London.

11-28-2003, 23:49
i like the of the jacobites v redcoats idea too, cause that was a "total war" situation with the jacobites trying to take over britian.

u obviously couldn't stick to the historical realism with that.

some other stuff i was thinking about relating to this mod in general. it would make it interesting to have each clan have its own unique unit, like "Cameron of Lochiel" would have a short building time and a large unit and a valour bonus because they were a numerous people and reasonablily well equipped.

in a jacobite v redcoat game u would only have two factions and the provinces devided up between them and the jacobites would be able to train highland units, (unique stats for each clan) and lowland jacobite family lands would provided militia and cavalry. would make an interesting game.

anyway thats my tuppince worth of ideas just now.

11-29-2003, 00:08
I like the sound of this mod..would be good in the late 16th century-1761 or something along that line. Would be dashing good fun But I like the Medieval Scotland idea too.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

11-29-2003, 15:17
Will update everyone when I have more time to write but suffice to say I've listed out the clans and units - there are actually several factions differentiated by religion (actually political affiliation) - Whig (ie English government clans mainly the Campbells of Argyll and the Douglases of Drumlanrig/Clydesdale, plus the English government w/c is the POPE player), Jacobite (naturally those loyal to exiled James mainly the Drummond/Stuart faction and various other clans for w/c it was convenient to be Jacobite including the tiny but fierce Camerons and the contentious MacDonalds - there are actually two MacDonalds, Keppoch and Sleat), Moderates or Scottish Nationalists (mainly the Clan Graham of Montrose and Clan Murray of Atholl) and - no faction but buildable units - the fierce Covenanters. At least 8 playable factions and a bunch of minor clan rivals.

More laterz,

11-29-2003, 15:20
Each has it's own 'unique unit' w/c is actually a minor clan that adhered to the major clans, best example being the Clan Mackenzie, Earls of Seaforth w/c encompassed the North of Scotland. Their 'unique unit' will be the 'Wild Macraes', historic castellans of Eileen Donan and nicknamed the 'Seaforths mailed shirt' for their loyal adherence to the Seaforth Mackenzie cause.


Duke Malcolm
11-30-2003, 19:39
Hi again. I will keep making the map, and you can do the unit stuff then. I get scared of the unit files, cause I've screwed them up before.

12-01-2003, 01:47
is this going to be a Medieval Age Mod or an Englightenment (1600-1750) Mod?

Lord De Moray
12-01-2003, 18:12
I'm having a good read here

Have you ever thought of doing the Bishop wars or the Wars of the Covenant, in short the Civil War in Scotland and the Montrose Campaigns 1600-1650 ish.

Lots of good units that could be made, Lancers, Pistols(mounted), Dragoons, Pike and Shot, Highland bands and some Irish.

Just thought it was a good period to look at.


Lord De Moray

Duke Malcolm
12-01-2003, 18:33
I think that I should do the Clan Wars (1093?-1603), the Wars of the Covenant (1603?-1650?), and finally the Jacobite Rebellion (not entirely sure) or the last two could be combined (I think) (1603?-1746)

12-01-2003, 23:09
the clans wars wouldn't take too much work, but the 1606-1746 one would require adding whole new units, and making the game basically into a total conversion, because you'd need more than 10 new units to make a good Jacobite Rebellion MOD

12-06-2003, 09:04
Actually the Bishops war and the Wars of the Covenant would be great topics but I believe more in the time period of Mr.Egg's ECW mod. The Covenanters are covered in this Highlander Total War mod and both sides (Govt and Jacobite) can build them but they may be more trouble than they're worth

Let's see if I can remember the factions off the cuff...


HANOVERIAN King (POPE)- but I may just dispense with this unless we can tweak the Glory Goals so you don't need a Conquer the Entire map to win this thing. Basically control isolated garrisons in the critical areas of Stirling, Edinburgh and Inverness as well as the highland Forts.

CAMPBELL Duke of Argyll - is the 'active' force for the government controlling the strategic Argyll region at the expense of his neighbors. Generally controls the majority of the 'Whig' clans including the Mackays, Rosses, Robertsons, etc. in the North (and holds their territory&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

DOUGLAS Marquess of Clydesdale/Earl of Drumlanrig - less powerful than in the days of The Bruce and now hated Whig lackeys, they have a chance to return to their glory days.


MURRAY Duke of Atholl - The Dukes of Atholl are in a somewhat tricky position. They owe their land and title to the ruling power but their lands and vassals are staunchly Jacobite. Murray can afford to sit on the fence and declare his loyalty at the right time - or not.

GRAHAM Marquess of Montrose/Viscount Claverhouse - The fiery Grahams are foremost in the struggle for Scottish independence and are not adverse to exploiting the ambitions of the Jacobites to serve their purposes.

GORDON Marquess of Huntley/Duke of Gordon - something of a fence sitter but nonetheless owes his title to the Sassenach. Has the only decent cavalry country in Scotland and can raise the only decent cavalry (excepting of course the Grey Dragoons and the Sassenach Dragoons).

ERSKINE Earl of Mar - probably will be a subordinate of one of the other factions. Each clan has a 'close ally' or subordinate clan that it can 'raise' for instance the Campbells can raise the Dalyrimples (Earl of Stair), the Douglases can raise the Hamiltons (Duke of Hamilton), the Frasers can raise the MacPhersons, etc.


DRUMMOND Duke of Perth - the old court gallants and fanatic loyalists of the Stuarts. They actually 'lead' the JACOBITE faction and can raise the STUARTS of APPIN clan.

MACDONALD of Keppoch, Glengarry and Clanranald - once legendary Lords of the Isles, their fondness for plunder and spitting in everyone elses eye split their clan in twain and got them in trouble with their neighbors particularly the rapacious Campbells.

MACDONALD of Sleat - Minor faction, holds the isle of his own cause. Can raise the Clan Macleod (I am Duncan...)

MACKENZIE of Seaforth - their vast lands are larger than some European principalities. Married into a solid northern power-base including their cousins the Ross clan (former Earls of Ross), their hereditary pipers, the Mackays (despite the majority of the clan being 'Whig), and of course the 'Seaforths Mailed Shirt' the Wild Macraes who hold the mighty island fortress of Eileen Donan.

CAMERON of Lochiel - this warlike clan raises the best fighting men. Unfortunately internecine struggles and the poverty of their land prevent them from becoming more powerful than they are.

FRASER of Lovat - the devilish and ambitious Lord Simon Fraser, an intriguer, wife-beater, rapist, suspected Jacobite yet conniving with the Whigs, it is said he will do anything to win. Nonetheless he is close to his people and to the disaffected clans of the north including the Robertsons of Struan, the Gordons of Glenbucket and the MacPhersons of Cluny.

MACGREGORS - their warlike attitude got them into seriously hot water and their name has been banned from Scotland They are great at ambushes (are the battlefield ninjas of the mod) and good fighters. Not a clan in themselves, some clans can construct a SHELTER THE MACGREGORS building to gain use of their services.

The time period should probably stretch from the Glorious Revolution to the end of the 45.

Important here are the buildings. Like with the WotR mod I had planned before they are more 'ideas' than actual structures. Religion will actually represent political affliation and clans can 'ally' themselves with either the government or the jacobites by building a 'God Save the King' loyal toast building or toasting 'The King Over the Water'. The Government is somewhat corrupt and there will be some structures that will lower happiness but net you cash.

Of vital importance as well is rising in societal stature (shades of Barry Lyndon) where you will have to build buildings that grant titles to progress. The first title you must achieve is chieftainship of the clan, represented by the hereditary clan name (in Gaelic where I could find it) such as Caberfae (The Deers Head) for the Mackenzies or Am Greamach Mor (Chief of the Grahams) etc.

Less emphasis on open battle as units, especially government regiments, will be very expensive. Money I think should be less a tangible thing as a concept which I call prestige or popularity. For instance government soldiers will cost an arm and a leg to be sent to the highlands but once there don't need too much in support costs. Highlanders however, fight well (the legendary highland charge) and are relatively cheap to raise but the support costs will kill you and force you to disband the 'superflouous' units, simulating their rapacity and plundering making them unpopular (not to mention costly&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and their penchant for deserting, driving home stolen cattle before them.

To police your lands there are several paramilitary options including Highwaymen (mounted pistol armed gangs), Highland Watchmen (like Rob Roy), Wild Highlanders (Berserkers), Armed Mobs (Ghazis?) etc. The government only has a few full garrisons at major locations, the rest are mostly platoons of infantrymen (govt troops but only 20 or so of them).

What do you chaps think?

Duke Malcolm
12-06-2003, 15:12
I think that's great http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

12-11-2003, 08:16
What have they said about the map? My plan is to use as much of the original units as possible though I'm running into some trouble adapting the stock European campaign units to Viking invasion.


Duke Malcolm
01-18-2004, 18:53
Sorry for not replying for a while, I've been a bit busy, but nevertheless, I am making the map, and I'm about half way through it (I think). How are you getting on?

01-23-2004, 12:10
Keep on getting stonewalled by the stupid diplomacy of the game. At best I can do the organizational stuff for the units, etc. as well as those Brit infantry I was working on before. I would have like to have them perform 'proper' musket drills but right now I'll just be happy if I can get them to shoulder arms like they should :-)

By the way what comments would you have about my 'theories' I mean are they wacked? Am I wacked? Are there things that are just right or things that are wrong. I mean, I'm not Scottish and all I know is basically from research, but I have done quite a bit of that and I hope I'm just not barking up the wrong tree.

We're working on Jacobite Total War right? Not the Robert the Bruce or Kenneth McAlpin one?


01-23-2004, 12:14
Thats another reason I use a lot of 'sneaky means' such as spies, assasins, diplomats, ladies of ill-repute or otherwise, in addition to 'armies' of highwaymen, bandits, etc. so that all the factions can conduct 'low intensity war' with each other until one or can muster enough strength and 'clout' to either raise the flag of rebellion, or declare himself the voice of King George II in Scotland.


Duke Malcolm
01-23-2004, 18:21
a guy (conner macleod) is trying to start a clan war mod, perhaps we could join him.

ps. how many regions do you think for the campaign map, I think 50ish

Duke Malcolm
01-23-2004, 18:23
and yes, a jacobite mod, but the time period seems a bit short.

Highlander X
02-01-2004, 20:46
this mod sounds great. glad to see you haven't forgot about the western isles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

here's a link to a really good scottish map. colour coded and everything. i've got a couple others from other sites too, but this scottish national library site should be all you guys need.

http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/map/early/scotland.cfm?id=864 (http://)

there's a couple maps on that site that show the clans and lords loyal to the crown or on the jacobite side during the revolt - with numbers of troops and everything, pretty cool.

Duke Malcolm
02-03-2004, 18:07
Thanks for that. I could never forget the Western Isles, most of the Gaelic speaking population is there, and that's where my clan comes from (or at least the clan that my sept belonged to)

Duke Malcolm
02-07-2004, 20:42
I was wondering if you want the mod as a replacement for VI, or as a new add-on. I think that the latter is harder though

02-08-2004, 01:29
Harder, but a great deal better. One thing that I've always wanted included with mods (I'm not sure if any has done it) is ... when I start I new campaign I get the option of playing the mod or normal version. Tha'd be the dream. *wipes tear*

Duke Malcolm
02-20-2004, 20:12
Um, are you (dclare4) still here?

02-21-2004, 08:01
Hi there KM,

Yes still here but rarely visit the forums nowadays. I've been kinda busy in the 'real world'. :(

About the mod, I think there are plenty of really great ideas hopping about here but unless you can gather critical mass of support it will either not get done and just remain an idea or take a very long time to do. That being said I think the greatest hurdle for now would be the map, followed closely by the unit graphics w/c u can only do so much with. However with the plan to adapt most if not all the MTW VI units I think that will relieve the burden somewhat. So the map. If you have seven or eight factions, though if possible more (seven playable with maybe two or three powerful non-playable ones) each should have at least 2 land areas plus maybe 4 areas for expansion around them, hmmm... fifty would be okay I guess though it might be kind of tight. I was originally planning to just write over the original MTW map with Iberia being the North of Scotland and on downwards to Russia, which would be the North Midlands. That's the kind of scope I'm picturing also so that there's plenty of room to grow - I personally think the VI map is way too cramped.

Best regards,

Duke Malcolm
02-21-2004, 13:25
By the way, what are factions that you wanted in it?

02-26-2004, 04:22
Hail HM Malcom of Scotland,

I can't remember them all off the cuff but I was thinking of playing this in a similar manner to my previously planned War of the Roses game in that you historically have two 'sides' -Jacobite and 'Whig' (Hanoverian) or three if you count the 'foreign powers' though these would be a subset of the Jacobite faction. But beneath these sides would be the factions of the great lords which use their 'allegiance' or adherence to one side or another to justify their power-grabs. So it's really every faction for itself in reality. The biggest let down in game purposes is the utterly HORRENDOUS MTW diplomatic engine w/c just utterly... I don't know... it's pathetic w/c is sad. I would have liked it to be possible to build tenuous 'alliances' with other factions without wiping them out. Perhaps if we modified the campaign points so you can win without wiping out the others :) ? Genocide is not only unrealistic but it's not a behaviour I want to encourage :)


Drummond (Perth) - the 'main' Jacobite faction loyal to the exiled Stuarts.

MacDonald (Glengarry) - the 'main' Highland faction loyal to the Celtic highland clanships

Graham (Montrose) - the 'main' Scottish faction loyal to the (lowland) Scottish nobility government

Campbell (Argyll) - the 'main' Government faction loyal to the English Hanoverian crown.

Other Factions:

Douglas (Drumlanrig, Queensberry, Hamilton) - secondary government faction.

Mackenzie (Seaforth) - secondary Highland faction

Gordon (Huntley) - secondary Scottish nobles faction

Cameron (Erracht) - secondary Highland faction

Hanoverian (English) - the 'Pope faction' a non-player faction that represents Crown lands and forces in Scotland.

Can't think of the others right now...

About the map, I hope there will be provision for 'jump maps' - this is a little innovation of mine - w/c are land regions that are connected only to each other. Like for instance the land region of Stirlingshire would be on the main Scotland map, but this connects to the off map 'jump map' of Stirling Town w/c in turn has its as its castle, Stirling Castle. The only way to 'take' Stirling Castle is by first conquering Stirlingshire then taking Stirling Town. Ditto for places like Edinburgh, London, Inverness, Eileen Donan, etc.

Best regards,

02-28-2004, 05:52
Oops Almost forgot

The Frasers of Lovat and the great MacShimie (Simon), the most evil man in Scotland Interesting (and should be playable) minor faction


Duke Malcolm
02-29-2004, 12:13
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the jump-map.

Also, wasn't there several Clan MacDonalds loyal to (King) James (VIII, old pretender, stuart). And also the Clan Murray, with Lord George Murray was an important clan.

Lord Of Storms
03-15-2004, 02:41
Moved to the new mod development forum currently called Edit3 you may follow this topic there. thanks...LOS

03-24-2004, 06:41
Hello there King Malcolm,

While I would have wanted to simulate and represent all the clans separately the big problem in TW (w/c also stopped my War of the Roses mod) is the utterly horrendous diplomatic portion of the game. So I just thought it would be better to have the major historical fations represented with ability to form tacit alliances - in as much as most of the warfare is really subterfuge (highwaymen, bandits, armed mobs) while formal warfare is expensive (it represents the need to gain widespread support for your cause and should result in a quarter/a third of the map conquered before you can 'buy' actual military units (King George/King James isn't going to just throw his support and troops behind you for nothing).

A jump map is a map that is not attached to the main map of Scotland but is a small 'box' to the side but it can only be accessed from one of the land territories. Like from Lanarkshire you can 'jump' to the jump map of Stirling. This helps simulate the fortifications in that area.


Duke Malcolm
05-09-2004, 17:38
I have finally got a spare minute to work on the mod again (I had some PC problems, endless essays, and so on)

1) Hmm...How do you do the subterfuge thing?

2) Is the jump-map possible?

3) I assume that some of the previously posted factions won't be used then. Should I think of what ones to use?

Duke Malcolm
05-09-2004, 17:40
Also, I think that the Napoleonic units could be used for some Hanoverian troops, we could ask the Nap people if we can use them.

05-11-2004, 10:58
Of much GREATER concern than the graphics will be getting the game to work (the programming/modding). Try to find your way around the mods already done, test how things work etc. Jump maps SHOULD work (theoretically), as it's mainly a matter of getting the 'neighbors' defined properly.

By Subterfuge I meant simply that there should be lots of 'military units' that represent minor/subterfuge efforts as well as the 'agent' types - for instance Brigands, Reivers (hence you need people to watch your sheep), etc. or stuff like armed mobs and other interesting things.

I think we should focus on getting the skeletal structure up and running and if we can show that then I'm sure that those with graphics skills will be glad to lend a hand :)

Best regards,

I met the devil and Dundee
on the braes o' Killiecrankie oh

Duke Malcolm
05-11-2004, 17:49
I thought that you wanted a whole separate campaign map for the jump-maps?

05-27-2004, 08:15
Well the basic idea for the jump maps is we can work with either existing maps or make our own as most of the work will be taking place in the definition files - defining w/c regions are neighbors etc. Its sort of like a monopoly board where the map is cartographic but also represents ideas/concepts.


06-08-2004, 08:58
Hi there King Malcolm,

You're probably in a better position to judge - lets say we mod the MTW Grand Campaign (Europe) Map into Scotland and the British Isles with Spain being the area of Sutherland, Ross and Caithness etc. onwards on down (Russia would probably be the English Midlands), what places would be included? What should the provinces in MTW be renamed into?


Duke Malcolm
06-08-2004, 18:17
Why not just use a new map altogether?

06-14-2004, 09:30
Graphics modding has never been my strength particularly for MTW and I do better with messing with the text files, research etc. Basically though I'd like to know what places should be included in the listing (w/c are the most 'important' locations in Scotland and the British Isles for the purposes of a Jacobite mod)?


Duke Malcolm
06-14-2004, 16:45
Outer Hebrides (several regions, Lewis, Harris, North/South Uist), Inner Hebrides (several regions, not quite sure which ones), Caithness, Loch Ness area, Edinburgh/Lothian Stirling, Tayside, Strathmore (perhaps merge Strathmore with Tayside), Deeside, Berwick, Roxburgh, Dumfries, Strathclyde, some English regions (no further south than Derbyshire), various Highland regions, Blair Atholl.

I'm still unsure about the Jacobite Rebellion mod. The second was only from 1745-1746, and the first was even shorter. Also, the diplomatic system is bad in MTW, so it is hard to simulate the Government side, and Jacobite side with several clans.

07-04-2004, 05:30
Hi KM,

Yeah diplomacy is horrible so actually players don't play government vs jacobite rather, in the style of the old game Kingmaker, they play rival factions which may develop buildings (representing techs/attitudes/allegiances) that will enable to take one side or the other. Was basically thinking that instead of religion, Christian vs Muslim, its allegiance, Jacobite vs Whig as each faction would have certain tendencies but ultimately is out to win for itself. To simulate diplomacy better, titles will be permanently 'connected' to certain families and giving a player a title will mean he takes the place of the 'controller' or 'factor' who is in real control though the nobleman and his family hold the title (ie. MacDonald Duke of Argyll, Murray Duke of Atholl or Murray Marquis of Tullibardine).

I'm still having serious crash problems with adapting the Muslims to the VI game though and haven't yet found what I'm doing wrong. But its a start at least :)

Alba Go Bragh,

Duke Malcolm
07-04-2004, 20:08
Campbell was Earl of Argyll, not MacDonald.

07-10-2004, 09:04
Woops My bad Campbell, Duke of Argyll, his partner in crime Dalyrimple of Stair and MacDonald of Clanranald, Glengarry and the Isles :)


G-Con Daniel
07-11-2004, 17:56
Hi there love the idea for this mod. If you wanted a small hint, you could play the P.C game highland warriors. It's great for your mod... Well i think that anyway.

07-13-2004, 03:11
...well?? Any news of this mod so far?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Duke Malcolm
07-16-2004, 20:58
I was doing a map, but dclare4 seems to have started that. I know plenty of things for the campaign. The time, though, seems short, I tink that we should wait for Rome, assuming that it will have months, and such-like.

G-Con Daniel
07-20-2004, 08:36
That's better, wait for Rome: Total war and then you can make it more lifelike. If there is a campaign editor for RTW, you could have that mod up and running in no time. Now, how about a party?

https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

08-23-2004, 06:52
Hullo KM!

Finally got my password back. Apparently someone hacked the forums a few weeks ago.

When will Rome TW come out anyways? Do you think the map will be moddable? From what I hear the map will be 3D and that sounds harder to do than what we've got here.

It's really a shame that the diplomacy rules here are so simplistic and the alliances are really little more than truces. Still it worked pretty well for Shogun TW and I think it should work okay for Caledonia.

I'm kinda confused though, what would be the start date for the mod? How far back are we going? Just to the start of Jacobitism (Glorious revolution)? I think it would make sense to start there though I would like, if possible to include Covenanter forces for that period. Reworking the factions again as my net computer got infected so things are a little crazy here.

How are you doing?

08-23-2004, 07:02
I've been reading up on Covenanter history so we can do justice to the movement, their spirit and ideals and why men like Bonnie Dundee (or to them, Bluidy Clavers) found them dangerous.

The early units can be the stock late medieval type units such as pikes, arquebusiers (to be modded to musketeers with matchlocks), etc. Dragoons will, unfortunately, probably have to fire from the saddle as I've yet to see a game that makes dragoons dismountable.

I'm also having trouble with the English (Sassenach) side and the thought of choosing 'religion' (to be modded into political affiliation) - the idea of the game is that each side is a major clan and if powerful and influential enough it can gain the support of the Sassenach (with attendant troops and ships). What I don't want to happen is that two different clans gain Sassenach support and use the English troops to fight each other (somewhat unrealistic!)

Also I think the religion they start out with is the religion they end with. The thing is I think it would be more interesting to be able to declare for either the Whig or Jacobite side rather than having that set in stone. The Drummond clan, however, should be always Jacobite as I'm using them to represent the exiled Stuarts and the court of St James.


08-23-2004, 07:14
By the way, if you're still so inclined, go ahead with the map. My map-making efforts are going no-where as my photoshop can't convert to the proper format (apparently).


Duke Malcolm
08-23-2004, 17:22
I don't think that a 3D map for Scotland/Great Britain would be too hard. There are programs which read Ordnance Survey maps, make them 3D, and put a satellite image on top, or any other picture, then get the height file or whatever, and use that.

Autumn it comes out, also.

08-26-2004, 09:47
Hi there KM,

Just been reading the review of RTW. Looks great graphically, though I'm kinda hoping they're going to make the graphics a bit easier to mod, at least for the soldiers. Been reacquainting myself with the Jacobite period again and playing around with values and seeing what will work in MTW. Maybe we're better off waiting for RTW, I don't know. I really can't get past the horrible diplomacy rules and the lousy naval rules. Diplomacy worst of all. I'm figuring out how to make this work while forcing players to play for alliances (so you get Drummond/Perth leading the Jacobites, Campbell/Argyle leading the Whigs and various clans should aline alongside one or the other). Also, warfare should generally be very expensive, more-so for the Whigs than the Jacobites as the best 'Whig' units are of course Government regiments. That's another huge problem, how do we make it so that players commanding 'government' forces don't turn them on each other? Ideally there should be one 'government support' building buildable and once that's done the others can't build it till it's destroyed.

best regards,

08-26-2004, 09:52
One problem though I just realized... what if they don't have musket type projectile weapons? I hope they keep it in the programming for the sake of moddability. And change the years into months, though that's ruddy doubtful.


08-30-2004, 08:02

I've sent a personal mail to King Malcolm a little while back stating that I would love to be involved in this mod as I'm a Scotland and history addict. Let me know when you need battle maps (I'm addicted to creating them).
In the past I've offered my services to different other mods as well but for one reason or another that has all sizzled away.
For battle maps I could be an asset. Please....involve me !


Duke Malcolm
08-31-2004, 19:50
I think that we have decided to wait for Rome, since that will come out in a few months (hopefully), and shall have a better diplomatic system (hopefully).

09-03-2004, 06:03
Hi KM and Dirk,

Glad to for your enthusiasm Dirk. I don't think this is one that will die out :) You're certainly welcome!

One thing I was wondering though is have you guys tried out the RTW demo? I've heard good things and quite a number of bad things about RTW so I'm not abandoning the thought of working with MTW entirely. One problem with RTW though I think (at least I hope) they will make it an option is there are obviously no fire-arm units in that period and if they disable the use of arquebusier/musket types... I don't know.

Hopefully they changed the diplomacy rules and gave more options and more variety. If worse comes to worse I was thinking of a map by 'demense' meaning map areas are named for certain 'lordships'/'chieftainships' such as Cluny, Fraserburgh, Strathbogie, etc. and 'conquering' them gives you not just the title but primarily the allegiance of the chief or laird such as 'conquering' Cluny will give you the 'title' 'Chief MacPherson of Cluny' or 'conquering' Erracht will give you the 'title' 'Chief Cameron of Erracht' - that way it's not really your one clan/faction but your clan/faction assimilating the other clans/factions. Even the major 'titles' should have their family owners still attached (ie. Lord Murray, Marquess of Tullibardine, Lord Campbell, Duke of Argyll) so essentially the guy you assign the title to becomes the 'power behind the throne' so to speak and the historic person attached to the title (Lord Campbell, Duke of Argyll) for example is little more than a puppet on the string. That's the best workaround for the horrible diplomatic system that's currently in place that I can think of. What do you chaps think?


09-03-2004, 09:10
I've tried the demo but due to poor specs (my machine used to be top of the line 3 yrs ago !) I couldn't handle the demo very well.


09-05-2004, 16:47
Yikes! I hate to think where that will put my machine. Top of the line... err... five years ago? ;)

well we'll do the best with what we've got :)

best regards,

09-06-2004, 09:01
Hi Dirk and KM,

Just out of total curiosity... do you have Shogun Total War, Warlords Edition?


Duke Malcolm
09-06-2004, 17:28
Yes, I do.

09-07-2004, 09:31
No, I don't. After MTW and the Hellenic and WTR mods I don't really think there is much to interest me in a Japanese version.
Now......a Scottish mod......THAT would be fantastic !

09-08-2004, 05:37
It's the second (better?) enhansed version of the very first Total War game. Moddability next to nill - that being said I was playing around with it for a while and if it can be modded I think, atmosphere-wise, it may be the best vehicle for at least a testbed of a Scotland/Jacobite Total War. I also, quite frankly, consider it the best of the series, at least the purest. I can still play it now and be utterly immersed in the period with the feeling like you're a daimyo and not just playing a game moving pieces around the table.

The map of Japan seems close enough in fact when I heard Barocca was doing Shogun for MTW I thought of using his Japan as a testbed for Scotland. The southern island (Kyushu) can be Ross/Caithness/Sutherland (the far north highlands), the small island south can stand in for the Western Isles and that big area to the north of Honshu can be thought to extend southwards down the British isles into England.

I guess it's all the 'bad press' I'm hearing about RTW, I don't know, and also my brother has my MTW so I was unable to reinstall it :)

The hardcoding of next to everything's really a pain but if we work within the limits of the game I don't think it'll be to hard. At least it gives you the throne room and if a way can be found to mod the BOF files (maybe we could ask Barocca et al) they can be converted to your loyal adviser and maybe the geisha into a piper sitting by the wall. It also has months instead of years (RTW looks like it'll have years again) and movie clips and (very important) mutual exclusivity w/c I think is NOT possible in MTW - what I mean is the dutch and portuguese traders w/c is what I've been wanting and trying to do with MTW but you're always able (at least I've not found the work-around) to build both muslim & christian buildings if you remove the religious requirement. The thing is, I don't want to make each leader set as muslim or christian at the start but rather to have a choice w/c path he will take. (muslim/christian by the way will be modded into Jacobite/Whig) but the only time something becomes exclusive is if the factions are set from the start and there's no way (apparently) to 'convert' mid-stream. As opposed to STW the Dutch and Portuguese traders arrive and one gives the religious requirement as a requisite and after that build a church and you've pretty much chosen your path. Thus the Portuguese can be 'English Officers' while the Dutch can be 'French envoys' who supply weapons without caring much for your affiliation (enabling you to remain Buddhist - or as modded, Jacobite). The Church - Cathedral becomes the 'Customs House - Barracks' and priests become English Excisemen or English Officers or something. The Geisha become, I'm thinking, Lifeguards or Bodyguards, your personal henchmen of sorts for nasty strong-arm tactics.

Clans (if I can remember the way I'm entering them into the loc files)

CAMPBELL (Takeda) - government cavalry available
MACDONALD (Oda) - cheap foot soldiers (Yari Ashigaru)
DRUMMOND (Mori) - most loyal to the house of Stuart (as Mori is the most fanatically Buddhist)
FRASER (Imagawa) - most likely to use underhanded means.
MURRAY (Hojo) - cheap castles (debating whether THIS should be Campbell and just give Murray the Gordon cavalry as Takeda)
MACKENZIE (Shimazu) - cheap swordsmen (Nodachi modded to Wild Macraes)
GRAHAM (Uesugi) - hmmm forgot his speciality...
SASSENACH (Mongol units)

Been testing and it easily accepts the year 1714 - was thinking since there are so few unit slots and limited moddabilty we can concentrate on the first rising and end just prior to the second (or if things go well with the mod, why need end it?)

Then once the mod generates enough support (ie 3D graphic designers and strategic map makers hehehe) we can push through with either ROME or MEDIEVAL with as grand a sweep of history as we could want.

What do you guys think?

09-12-2004, 04:08
It's not that we're giving up on the Caledonia TW mod but I think it would inspire us to actually have something playable immediately and may help us think through the latter mod. STW is relatively easy to mod in that there's not much you CAN mod so it reduces you to the bare essential choices.

KM where can I email you the files I've worked on so far. I've got a simple campaign up and running in STW WEMI. Lets work on the Loc files first then the graphics.

best regards,

Duke Malcolm
09-12-2004, 15:39
at malcolm@ghales.co.uk, although it only holds 1 megabyte.

09-20-2004, 08:36
So did you get it? Good news is I got back my copy of MTW VI and I'll re-install as soon as I'm done with my projects this week. There seems to be some indication that pagan/Viking factions can 'convert' to Christianity so I've got to see what's up with that.


09-25-2004, 11:45
Hi Dirk,

Your speciality is map making right? Well lets go with that, I'll send you maps/references for Scottish battles so you can try modding the maps for them. Just let me know where I can email you.

best regards,

09-27-2004, 10:12

Please, check your personal inbox for my reply

Duke Malcolm
10-14-2004, 15:24
I have Rome, and am starting the mod for that. It will only be clans at first, until we can make new models, and guns. I am using existing models until then. I shall announce it in the Rome bit, feel free to help if you wish, I have started on the campaign map, and have made a test highlander.

10-15-2004, 13:04
Hi there KM

Well it shouldn't be very long till I get RTW. How is it compared to MTW? Does it have months? (hoping, hoping). Did it retain the virtues and vices and traits? how about the titles and offices? I have to check it out ASAP.

One thing I thought of also was to mod the 'jihad' (as the Jacobite clans will be modded from the muslim religion, whigs from the catholic, scots nationalist/neutral from the orthodox) into a RISING, w/c gives you rising specific units (like the Crusade/Jihad would give you specific units like Futuwwa or Knightly Orders), allows you to overstack beyond the normal number of units and, importantly, loses strength per turn w/c nicely simulates the high desertion rates suffered during the risings as the highlanders returned home with their plunder.

As for the campaign map, I was thinking we can even use one as simple as the VI Britain map but with jump maps. Like in the old boardgames w/c would have holding boxes for stacking brigades or off map areas, jump maps would be linked only to the main map, implying you have to control the main map area to get to the jump maps. You could have a region called FIRTH OF FORTH or something then have jump maps that go to Dunbar, Musselburgh, Edinburgh or ATHOLL and have a jump map that goes to BLAIR ATHOLL. I think this would also be a way to simulate the difficulty of conquering the country and allow freer movement of units/stacks as the jumped to areas would represent clan strongholds, castles, garrisons, etc. and would be well fortified while the main map would have a low fortification rating making it easier to capture - this could simulate Wade's roads.

On the subject - I'm thinking we should replace the concept of 'fortifications' here with 'resistance' so instead of building up fortifications in the medieval sense you strengthen a people's loyalty and abilty to hold the region for you and resist invasion so a siege becomes a period of 'pacification'. Naturally the historic fortified locations would have castles and fortifications but these would be equivalent to citadel level already and be difficult/impossible to build (as building them is not really your main objective in the game anyways)

Also on the subject of the campaign map, I was able to photocopy a map of Scotland with placenames in Gaelic. Would make a nice touch, don't you think?

best regards,

10-15-2004, 13:09
If we had a map with as many areas as lets say the Europe map we would be able to have clan specific areas. Each clan area you 'conquer' subjugates the clan and makes them your vassals and the chieftain becomes your puppet essentially so regions will have titles such as "MacLean of Duart" or "Robertson of Strowan" and if possible would have a buildable structure available only in that region that lets you 'raise' the clansmen. I'm trying to research w/c clans/titles should be hereditary to a faction (such as Tullibardine or Atholl for the Murray Faction or Argyll and Loudoun for the Campbell Faction) and which should be inheritable with conquest.

best regards,

Templar Knight
12-03-2004, 18:03
Hi there folks,

Will it Feature the Jabobite risings of 1689, 1715, 1719, 1745 and James Graham and MacColla's campaigns against the covenanters?

If you need any help feel free to drop me a line ~:)

Duke Malcolm
12-04-2004, 16:44
I thought it was 1714/15 onwards.
Do you have RTW, templar knight, or dclare4?
I haven't announced a mod yet, but I will sometime.

Templar Knight
12-04-2004, 17:04
The first rising was in 1689, and the Battle of Killiecrankie took place on July 27th, of that year. The Jacobites were lead by John Graham (James Graham was around the english civil war), Viscount Dundee, the redcoats were lead by General Hugh MacKay of Sourie.

Yea, I have RTW

12-15-2004, 08:32
Yes I have it and darn it's bloody good. I'm reworking the map like crazy now actually. Working on an (unannounced) Lace-Wars period mod though right now the stupid 200 province limit has me reworking some-more (I had such a nice province set up for the British isles). Thinking of covering the period 1730-1770 with the 'roman factions' being replaced by HRE, Austria/Bohemia, Hannover and Bavaria with their arch-enemies including Prussia and France w/c overwrite Macedonia and Carthage respectively. Of course the Jacobites are there - they replace the Briton faction (the light blue stag is just too nice to forego) but they start out like the Julii in the prologue - landless in Latium but should have military access to France, Piedmont and the Independent States. Looking good so far.

Units are also ridiculously easy to reskin now - no more slaving over animation sprites like Walt Disney in the 1930s. Have a British redcoat that's just waiting for his hat to be turned into a tricorne and his bow into a musket.


12-15-2004, 11:31
so, is it dead for MTW?


Peegee Tips

12-17-2004, 03:40
Well realistically speaking I think a mod for MTW would require a 3D modeller with the skill of Duke John or one of the Lordz and I don't know if we'll be able to get that in the near future. There are several things that I prefer in MTW VI (religion, titles and offices, set names for captains, jihad/crusade) w/c aren't in RTW so I'm still hoping that we can still attract a skilled modeller sometime in the future. In the meantime maybe if we can raise the interest of people in the period more will want to work on this.


12-17-2004, 11:47
i hope you find that modeller, but sadly my 3D skillz are limited to UnrealED.

12-18-2004, 14:55
I certainly hope so too... in the meantime none of us are getting any younger and the new game IS relatively easy-IER to mod (at least basic skin/map)... so...

Who knows we might get that skilled modder any day :)


deep diver ed
01-08-2005, 11:30
what ever hapend to this mod??? i would love it

01-16-2005, 08:40
Still here... got a pic ;)


or two!



01-16-2005, 08:42
Oops sorry ;p



here are the pics (I hope!)

Duke Malcolm
01-16-2005, 18:40
My God! That's good. How long did that take you?
I made a highlander skin, and started on a Scotland campaign map, but had troubles, so they got wiped, which is why I never announced the mod for RTW. I can started again, but don't know how long it will take.

Templar Knight
01-16-2005, 19:34
wow ~:eek:

excellent! well done!

01-17-2005, 07:26
Hi everyone,

Hmmm, about two evening's work - I was using the Roman stratmap named character model as the basis for the Brit officer but I made a happy discovery that the eastern named commander looked better for the part - fat and gouty, perfect for Butcher Cumberland hehehe - and with some modification the helmet looks like a tricorne (I hope you agree!), while the Roman character figure did very nicely for the Jacobite character - it looks more like the Seven Years War period British light dragoon, while the Carthaginian character looks like a Revolutionary/Early Napoleonic Wars British light dragoon with the Tarleton helmet. The Jacobites wear the Stuart of Appin tartan, but unfortunately there's no way I can make it drape properly over the shoulder as the figures use a mirror effect with texturing. The Jacobite named characters for their part wear a variation of the French Royal Ecoissais uniform - highland blue bonnet, blue coat with red facings similar to the French Guard though I trimmed it in gold to make it stand out more as an officer's uniform. Wish the cape could be made to drape instead of hanging down like Superman's cape! Should the Highlander keep his current design (torso naked) or would it be better if we cover up some of the skin? :)


Templar Knight
01-17-2005, 14:22
Will the game allow the building of military roads and government forts?

Duke Malcolm
01-17-2005, 14:28
I think that it would be better if you cover up the chests.
And I assume that it would allow for military roads and forts, using the Rome thingy in it already.
I will get started on the campaign map, but exams will make it start slowly, so I can't say how long it will be.

Templar Knight
01-17-2005, 14:43
What about features such as Duart, Inverlochy, Ellian Donnan castles and barracks such as Ruthven and Bernera?

and good luck with your exams! :bow:

Duke Malcolm
01-17-2005, 17:03
After looking at the LOTR mod for Rome, I think that each of the more imposing castles can have thier own model on the campaign map, hopefully, with a separate model for other castles
I don't think that castles will be buildable in the mod, only fortifications. There will be existing castles that can be used, though

01-19-2005, 04:08
Haha okay, I thought so too! Okay, button up and cover up Scottie! But its so funny how the fat and gouty look for Cumberland turns into the brawny clansman look for the Scot (same model used!)

(Scots too sexy for their shirt, too sexy for their shirt)


Templar Knight
01-20-2005, 22:39
lol, good work

Duke Malcolm
01-21-2005, 17:04
I have started on my campaign map, but progression is slow, with school.
Regions so far are :

North Uist
South Uist and Barra
Carse of Gowrie
Kincardine (I think)
Mull of Kintyre

Templar Knight
01-21-2005, 17:35
wow, thats good going :balloon2:

02-19-2005, 23:30
Finally a great idea for a mod..! Is the work on this mod still going on?
I am a Dutch History student with an obsesion for Scottish History (especially the Jacobite Uprisings). I was always hoping that someone would make such a mod, because i'm not good at making mods. If you're still in need of some Historical info about de uprisings or specific things just let me know. I'm willing to help you in anyway that i can!
This is my e-mail: ticokoopmans@hotmail.com :charge:

The Last Highland Charge 1746

Duke Malcolm
03-14-2005, 16:52
some unfortunate new : I got a virus or two on my computer, and subsequently had to delete quite a lot of stuff, so I no longer have the regions image, nor the heights image. With all my school work and impending exams, it seems unlikely that I can remake the stuff, but shall try as much as I can.

04-19-2005, 16:13
Hi King M

How far did you get with the MTW side of this mod,

Did you get down to a list of Units for the differnt time periods ? Or did you get round to creating any BIF ?

Duke Malcolm
04-19-2005, 18:17
I got the map more-or-less competed to the stage where I could input it to LMM (although I don't know if it would work or not), I think.

Templar Knight
04-20-2005, 11:16
any chance of a peek? ~:)

Duke Malcolm
04-24-2005, 13:33
That got wiped when the RTW stuff got wiped