Couple of beginner questions

[sd11756]

Hey all, I just discovered this board and have some questions that need adressing. I read the beginner's guide and did find some good stuff but I need more help.

1) When certain units are created, they have a fixed number (spearmen come out in groups of 50) but the game starts you out with a few groups of 100. Is there a way to combine two groups of 50 into one group of 100?

2) Trade routes are so expensive and everytime I make one the computer usually starts a stupid war for no reason and I lose everything, but I keep reading that people get massive amounts of money from trade. Is there some secret to doing this that I am missing?

3) How do I use the Formations when attacking? Do certain ones work better than others?

4) Does anyone know how to make a crusade work? It seems like a waste of money to me and not really worth the effort unless you can somehow take the Holy Land. (Also, in Glorious Achievements, how long do I have to take Antioch, Tripoli, etc. to get those points?)

5) Can someone suggest strategies for the Holy Roman Empire, English, and Turkish? I seem to have way too much land as the HRE (making it hard to defend) and way too little as the Turks.

6) Can someone suggest a good attacking and defending army for the 3 factions listed in #5?

I would appreciate any replies.

SD

PS-My condolences to any Spanish posters on these boards for your recent tragedy.

[Cebei]

Hello SD

I will answer those I can;

How do I use the Formations when attacking? Do certain ones work better than others?

Usually close formation is a standard formation in all types of defense/offense combinations. Wedge formation is good when you are trying to fit through two lines of enemy formations like:

-------------- --------------- Spearmen

I
III Your attacking unit
IIIII

This way you are flanking BOTH of the spearmen formations and reaching as far as their third line. Wedge is usually a charging cavalry formation, but you can do the same with sword class infantry versus spearclass infantry.

Loose formation is used when you are marching against an enemy defensive position and keeping you men far, in order to minimise losses from arrow fire. Also use loose formation when pursuing down routing enemies to widen your chasers' area of reach.

Does anyone know how to make a crusade work? It seems like a waste of money to me and not really worth the effort unless you can somehow take the Holy Land. (Also, in Glorious Achievements, how long do I have to take Antioch, Tripoli, etc. to get those points?)

Crusades are best when you launch them early, before Egyptians get too powreful. French crusades are better because they got very pious men, who can also be your provincial governors. Also add-in extra men into your crusade to inflate men going through. The whole idea of crusade is to get a COVER; a sheep's skin, to be able to PASS through East Europe and Anatolia without attacking anybody and preserving your force intact until it reaches the holy cities. A crusade by itself is unlikely to yield results. Add in masses of troops into your crusader stack to get highest benefit from it.

As for GA, AFAIK, you get the point as soon as you conquer them, I dont think you should hold them at all


Can someone suggest strategies for the Holy Roman Empire, English, and Turkish? I seem to have way too much land as the HRE (making it hard to defend) and way too little as the Turks.


As for Turks, I guess you are talking about late era Ottomans (cus in early they got standard amount of land). Rum in itself is a good province, it has good income and can be your base for a long time. I suggest you, what Ottomans did in history. Build a border raiding army of Turcoman horses and then invade a rebel province, unleash all of the arrows against the rebels, then withdraw. Repeat this for 4-5 turns when your turcomans can engage rebels in melee. Get all the rebel province before Byzantines and try to strike Byzantines when you get the force to do it. Dont go for Egyptians because then you will have to deal with crusaders and dont take Khazar or other steppe provinces before 1230 because of the massive destruction Golden horse brings

Secondly, for all muslims factions, get to saracen infantry ASAP. They are extremely reliable and are imperial armies' rank and file.


Can someone suggest a good attacking and defending army for the 3 factions listed in #5?


Really depends on your tech situation and your economy. If you got a rich economy and enough infrastructure, (all armor and weapon upgraded) use saracen infantry as stoppers, janissary heavy infantry for flanking and multi-purpose havoc creating, Khwarazmian cavalry as errr cavalry and sipahis of the porte as your general. As Turks got loads of archer units, it is really up to you which archer you will use, but I will suggest turcoman horse as archers because you never need to protect them, they can run, distracting attacckers away from the battle

[Seven.the.Hun]

welcome sd11756, u can download gnome editor and play around with the max # of men in a unit,
for formations, loose is only good to spread out and avoid 'some' of the missle fire...others are used in discretion, hold formation is useful when u want some guys to act like trees and get in the way of like say cav, who dont finagle well through forest
and trade routs are a biatch sometimes, start out small, trading with a few countries at first, just perhaps take one body of water, and expand a bit into its neighbors... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[wanderingblade]

Hi, I'm new to the org but have been playing fairly solidly for a bit, so heres my two pence on this...

On trade routes, I think certain factions don't like ships in certain areas so that will trigger attacks unless you move in very strong fleets. I think the Italians can get fairly bolshy, and I've had the Turks get annoyed with me as the Egyptians for posting boats in the Maemara when they'd conquered Constantinople.

For HRE, you really just want to get as tight in your borders as possible, as well as upgrading your economy as much as possible so that you can afford war when it comes. I find that by pumping out lots of the cheap n' cheerful troops you get to begin with, you can keep your borders fairly well covered - when you get invaded, retreat to the castle, counter-invade, then wait to crush that faction. If you find no one attacking you, I'd recommend attacking north to crush Denmark - with any luck, you can finish them off before the Pope opens his mouth as the Danes are usually slow expanding.

For England, I'd recommend just building up your forces until you can take France quickly, then take it. Imo, you really need to be able to connect to your French holdings and the French provinces you gain are all quite good, particularly Flanders. I'm talking about early for both here, although I think the same advice holds fairly true for both in any time period.

Thats about as much advice as I feel I can give without overextending my knowledge... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Greetings, sd11756

1. Drop one unit onto the other on the strategic map. If they don't merge, hit M while that stack is selected. If that doesn't work, Check the unit size setting in the options menu

Also, you can take a partial unit, put it in the fort of a province that makes that type of unit, open up the build units display and drag and drop the unit into one of the train units slots. It will come out next turn at full strength.

2. Unfortunately, there is no secret. Massive amounts of trade usually comes with peace. I normally consider trade income to be gravy, not a part of the permanent budget. I buy farm upgrades with trade income -- using temporary windfalls to enhance stable income.

3. That's a long topic.


4. Basically, have an attack so sudden and overwhelming you don't need a Crusade, and let the Crusade tag along for the ride. Then you get the victory points for a successful crusade and a few powerful units that you can only get by Crusading.

I rarely play Catholic factions that can crusade. When I do, I often wind up disbanding the worst units.

5. More long topics.I'm just going to stick with the Turks in early.

Egyptian Nubian spearmen and peasants really don't stand a chance against well-handled horse archers. However, handing horse archers takes practice and a certain knack. There's an active thread now on horse archers, in fact.

I know that's a tactical answer to a strategic question, but that explains why the Turks should start off by attacking the Egyptians. Others will disagree with me, saying you should attack the Byz or they will get too powerful.

6. Don't defend as the Turks. Attack.

[Qilue]

For trade routes, there's only one real strategy that keeps the AI from sinking your ships. Always have more ships. In my games, I go a little overboard and end up with more ships than everyone else combined.

I like to have at least 4 per sea region with 8 in any region I have a coastline and 16 in the choke points all in stacks of 4. It works like armies on land, if you have more, they are less likely to start a fight. Yes, this is a lot of ships, but I'm usually making more than enough florins to support all these ships with plenty left for other things.

One game as danes (I like playing danes :)), the byzantines sunk one of my ships, so I sank all of his. He accepted the peace treaty afterwards.

One option for the french (when playing english) is to only take flanders and brittany off them in a single turn. The rest of the french provinces are a little too exposed to be defended properly, at least until you are prepared for a war with the HRE and the spanish.

[sd11756]

Thanks for the replies.

I think I was unclear about the formations questions. I meant the formations listed before the battle begins ie English, Infantry Charge, Ottoman, etc.

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Hi there sd. Thanks for dropping by. I hope you stay a while.

1) Isn't the default size of spearmen 100 (asking others)? Maybe your unit size slider go moved to small - this would be in the Options menu under Performance(?). BTW, unit sizes are determined at the beginning of the game and can't be changed once the game starts. If this isn't the problem, then go with what Doug said.

3) By formations, do you mean the attack formations like bird, yoke, eastern defense,etc, or are you talking about the preset group formations like line, double line, defense, etc?

4) What specific problem are you having making them work?

BTW, I merged the two versions of this topic, so if it flows oddly, that is why.

[wanderingblade]

I think you mean the initial formations you use when deploying. I'm not quite certain what each one will come out as - but you can select, then switch back if you don't like it. I think you always start as three line attack if you're attacking, or three line defence if you're defending.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (sd11756 @ Mar. 15 2004,13:34)]I meant the formations listed before the battle begins ie English, Infantry Charge, Ottoman, etc.
Sometimes, they mean precious little. I've clicked on formations and watched as my units barely changed at all, stuck in blocks when I wanted too spread out.

I can't say I've found them to be very useful.

[katank]

as the HRE, blitz the Italians ASAP and then the Danes. The Italains since their lands are GAs for your reunification of Holy Roman Empire and are rich and worth taking even if you don't play GA.

taking out the Danes would enable you to get access to Scandanavia which is rich for trade.

You should then take on anyone who invades you.

When excommed, take Rome from the pope as that is also part of the reunification goal whcih you need by 1150 to get points for.

then, once recommunicated, start crusading towards the holy land to gain those GA points.



English, rush the French ASAP and take Navarre and sack Aragon if possible.

If not excommed, good job, sit back and build up economy. If excommed, take out the HRE.

farming in france and trading form the isles make you uber powerful.


Turks, pull all troops into syria and then invade tripoli and palestine. THis will trap their sultan in Antioch and you get nice ransom for him.

taking sinai and then repeat may get you another ransom.

after taking egypt, go for trebizond and then blaze a path to const. and hold on for dear life.

once you get const., unite Asia minor and you are set to dominate with only three chokepoints of georgia, const, and egypt.


all advice are for early


Crusades are great use them to get GA points and sponge up other catholic faction's troops. move through high zeal provinces of France and HRE and soon half their army is your's

rarely do my land crusades succeed though. Always use ships to get them done quick or supplement at the end.

BTW, loading mercs into them don't cost support and add extra bulk.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (sd11756 @ Mar. 15 2004,16:56)]1) When certain units are created, they have a fixed number (spearmen come out in groups of 50) but the game starts you out with a few groups of 100. Is there a way to combine two groups of 50 into one group of 100?
Welcome to the Org sd11756 (This must be the most strangest name I have seen on this forum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif )

I have the problem reversed when starting with Egypt in huge unit size: the Nubian spearmen units I start with have 100 men, but the ones I built have 200. So I think you are playing with small unit size and get initial units with normal unit size.


Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ Mar. 15 2004,23:54)]
Quote[/b] (sd11756 @ Mar. 15 2004,13:34)]I meant the formations listed before the battle begins ie English, Infantry Charge, Ottoman, etc.
Sometimes, they mean precious little. I've clicked on formations and watched as my units barely changed at all, stuck in blocks when I wanted too spread out.
I am experiencing the same problem. I think it is caused by using 'huge' unit size: the resulting formation simple wouldn't fit in the deployment circle. So the game keeps them in a tight formation. The formations do work on normal unit size or with less units.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (sd11756 @ Mar. 15 2004,08:56)]4) Does anyone know how to make a crusade work? It seems like a waste of money to me and not really worth the effort unless you can somehow take the Holy Land. (Also, in Glorious Achievements, how long do I have to take Antioch, Tripoli, etc. to get those points?)
Crusades can help your King's Influence and can provide quality troops (especially in Early). Losing Crusades can hurt you King's Influence so use'em wisely.

Crusades can also be used to deplete your neighbors stacks as they suck troops out of each province they pass through. Send an Inquisitor along in front of each Crusade to increase Zeal and get more better troops.

Only target provinces that you can reach in one move. For example, as Spain I use Crusades against the Almohads- targetting whcihever Almo province borders me. As the English, I build large navies that allow me to move quickly to the Middle East. Stat a Crusade out in Wessex, send it down to Provence or Venice, then boat to your target in Antioch or wherever.

Once I take the target I reconsider the position. In my Almohead example I don't want armored Knights of Santiago and Order Foot Soldiers in the desert, but I do want to keep the newly acquired provinces, so I swap out the good Crusader troops (and send 'em where they can fight against other Catholics if need be) and replace 'em with troops more suited to desert warfare.

If I have used a Crusade to take a province that is isolated from my empire, I'll probably raze every building for the cash then pull out (unless ther's a strategic reason to hang on to that province). I think its a mistake to try to hold every province once you have it.

Always have a Crusade ready to go - they are quite valuable when you want to take Novgorod or if one of your Catholic neighbors gets excommed and the Pope wants you to blast 'em.

Great way to get high end troops to aid empire expansion.


Quote[/b] ]6) Can someone suggest a good attacking and defending army for the 3 factions listed in #5?

For the English I like to use LBs - lots of them. Start with a few spearmen early on, then upgrade these to Feudal then Chivalric Sergeants. Get Feudal Men at Arms (I don't waste time or money on Urban Militia) and then Chiv Men at Arms. Billmen are OK but I don't really go big with Bills until I have built up the province a little - Billmen need a little armor and valor/morale to be truly effective. Use Hobilars for fast cav, but they can't fight real well so upgrade quickly to get Feudal Knights, then Chiv Knights.

A standard English army

Pav Pav Pav
Spear Spear Spear Spear
FMAA FMAA FMAA FMAA
LB LB

Feudal Knight Feudal Knight Feudal Knight
(gen)

ichi

[Bezalel]

Disclaimer: I'm really aggressive when i play campaigns.
4) Crusades can be very useful. I use them to get lots of troops quickly when an unexpected war comes along (After playing the comp a lot, you'll develop a sort of sixth sense that tells you when a faction is going to start a war w/ you. W/ higher difficulties, the comp will often attack you w/ other factions while you're at war w/ one or more). Crusades can be used to jump land to get to some other area, e.g. attacking some country on the other side of the map w/o having to go through other countries (I used this before I knew how to use ships). I also like to kick off a war against an excommunicated faction w/ a crusade, or just any islamic faction. As w/ the above, crusades can just be used for quick troops to take out an enemy quickly, as you should do.

5) For me, the key to any war in this game is to take out the enemy as quickly as possible. Try not to linger lots of troops in a province waiting for a castle's food stores to run out. Also, in the beggining of your campaign get your armies ready to attack a neighbor quickly. Overwhelm the computer's faction before they start making troops. This builds a base of money and gives you more provinces to train troops for future wars.

[dragonchr15]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Mar. 16 2004,13:23)]Stat a Crusade out in Wessex, send it down to Provence or Venice, then boat to your target in Antioch or wherever.
I can use other faction's ports to send crusades? interesting.... But lets say I am English and start a crusade to Constantinople, I have to travel by a certain route, it won't let me deviate for some reason.

[Gregoshi]

Hello dragonchr15. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

You are correct about have few, if any, choices about how a Crusade moves. But I think what ichi is getting at is a Crusade starting in Wessex, might go through Venice/Provence. I don't know if that is correct, but the idea is to setup the Crusade so it will go through a port and be prepared to have the ships necessary so the Crusade can go overseas to the target rather than having to fight through several hostile provinces to get to the target.

A question does come to mind though: can you only use your own ships to move a Crusade? Or can you confiscate the ships of other Catholic factions? I suspect the ships have to be yours, but I thought I'd ask.

[Qilue]

I'm not 100% sure of this.

I think you can use other's ships if you are traveling from one of their provinces.

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (sd11756 @ Mar. 15 2004,13:34)]I think I was unclear about the formations questions. I meant the formations listed before the battle begins ie English, Infantry Charge, Ottoman, etc.
What you need to know about these formations is that they run on a kindf of location script (dont ask me for more details). So they have slots for like, heavy infantry, skirmish cav, flanking cav, that sort of thing.

What this means is that the machine will only completely fill a formation if you have 16 units. If you have significantly less, your deployment may look lopsided or nonsensical.

The 3-line formations are the ones I use most if I do not deploy manually. But, if you look at the horse nomad formations, you can see they are loaded for a one-wing envelopement or a simultaneous double-wing envelopement.

These are only DEPLOYMENT formations. They have no relationship with the group formation options that you might use while actually in the thick of it.