Fury of the Northmen Mod

[PseRamesses]

This is outstanding news Norse I do hope everything works out and we don´t run into further problems with it. As for the raider-unit (crusade) I only have one wish: a dragonship with full blown sails

Since it´s midsummers-eve and a huge holiday here in Sweden tomorrow I was originally planning to go to my parents for three days. Due to my PC-probs which lead to a delayed strat-map and the fact that I invested in Adobe PhotoShop 7 I´m gonna stay home alone this holiday to try and make up for lost time and try out PS7 instead plus get alot of sleep. My daughters will be back on monday so I have some time.

@VH,
It´s great that you can help out with the units. I actually thought you couldn´t spare the time until yet another two weeks due to the next version of XL, which I´m looking forward to play. BTW, you mentioned earlier that you had found some music that we could add to FotN. I would love to hear it. Although I do feel the VI music is great we should add a couple of tracks to add originallity and the ambiance we´d like to portary with this mod.

@Wiplpurri,
All the excellent work you´ve done on Finnish and Baltic units should be sent to Norse if you haven´t done it already. I know you´ve posted it all in this thread but it would be more managble for Norse and VH to have it in one place.

@Norse,
I know a while back you had a site where i DL some maps, graphs etc. Do you still have it? It could be used for common storage and accessable to us all including the text-, unit- and mapfiles don´t you think?

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 24 2004,18:57)]@VH,
It´s great that you can help out with the units. I actually thought you couldn´t spare the time until yet another two weeks due to the next version of XL, which I´m looking forward to play. BTW, you mentioned earlier that you had found some music that we could add to FotN. I would love to hear it. Although I do feel the VI music is great we should add a couple of tracks to add originallity and the ambiance we´d like to portary with this mod.
I can use some time on unit production, but most of the work will be done in about two weeks.
Music, sh.. I forgot to send them. I will send you the mp3's tomorrow. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif It's cool music, but maybe too NTW like with the drums and stuff. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (VikingHorde @ June 24 2004,12:10)]BTW, you mentioned earlier that you had found some music that we could add to FotN. I would love to hear it. Although I do feel the VI music is great we should add a couple of tracks to add originallity and the ambiance we´d like to portary with this mod.
Music, sh.. I forgot to send them. I will send you the mp3's tomorrow. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif It's cool music, but maybe too NTW like with the drums and stuff. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]
No prob VH. I WAS however giving you a polite reminder, he he But I know you´ve been busy so I let it be for a while. I´ve installed Paint Shop 7, sorry it was v6, 7 hasn´t come out I think. Woha This is going to be fun. I actually pored my self a Black Bush and completely lost track of time for a couple of hours. My girlfriend also sent me the PS-bible. Yikes It´s on 950 pages... I´m gonna miss this summer ;)

[Norseman]

@PseRamesses

Quote[/b] ]
I know a while back you had a site where i DL some maps, graphs etc. Do you still have it? It could be used for common storage and accessable to us all including the text-, unit- and mapfiles don´t you think?


Yes I still have it PseR, but I'm not so sure how suitable it is for this purpose. I have no rights, nor authority, to hand out access to others than myself, and the storage capacity is limited. However we can use it for things we want to show others, like images of progress etc. You'll have to send it to me first, then I'll put it up.


Quote[/b] ]
Hi Norseman,Welcome back

Good to see that it works. It could be cool to have a Odin picture, like the pope when he excom ect.

About adding units, it could be done by sending all the unit files in the right places. Only one person can work on one animation at the time and the info for unit crusader file can be sent text file with only one unit. Then all the units should sent to one man who makes the total crusader file. I hope you understand what I mean

I can do some units, just need a small desciption of the units so that I can chose the right body, to add shields and stuff.


Hi VH, your help on the unit_prod file would be great Most of the units I have planned so far only needs excisting BIFs and uniticons, so the main work is setting up the prod.txt file itself. Then I and others post the units here with a description and then you could start making the files? When you find the time, will and energy of course... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Inuyasha12 @ June 23 2004,14:04)]First i would like to state that this is turning out to be a great mod, i'll be looking foward to some long weekends with it. Anyways could anyone give a kinda summary on how far you've gotten and where you guys are now? Also could you give a wild guess on when it might be finished?
Thanks It seem that a lot of players are keeping a watchfull eye on the progrees of this mod and that is a confirmation to us all that the viking world didn´t get a good enough representation with the VI version.
As for now most of the research is done and we´re moving into graphics, units and special features etc. A deadline isn´t set but a guess would be that a beta could be available in the end of the summer or beginning of the fall.
That is if we don´t come up with more cool and elaborate ways of exploiting this great game. Just check back with us and read through the posts since your last visit and you´ll get all the answers you´ll need. If you have suggsetions or comments please join in. Sorry for the late reply. Take care

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Hross af Guttenburg @ June 23 2004,17:40)]I would really like to see special ringborg or Gorodische fortresses in the rivers in Russia, that would be really cool and give a good defensive edge to what would otherwise be an obvious land mass for the great vikings to overrun
Thanks for the link HoG, it took we a while to find time to read it. Interesting stuff about Rurik. I, for one, didn´t know the impact he had on the rest of Europe.

Regarding the ringborg it´s already set although it will be octagonal since the map-editor don´t draw circular things. I have to look into it and see if this can be changed by a new buildingtype. FotN will also come with other unique buildings, units, a completely new tech-tree (it´s manual time again) and a new strat-map. It also seems that the raider-unit will be a reality.

When it comes to total domination that won´t be an option with this mod since we´ll make some inlad european provinces uncoquerable. World conquest is not realistic when it comes to the vikings.

[PseRamesses]

Found this site today with a huge amount of info on our era:

http://www.friesian.com/perifran.htm
http://www.friesian.com/germania.htm#norse
http://www.friesian.com/perifran.htm#scandinavia

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] ]
When it comes to total domination that won´t be an option with this mod since we´ll make some inlad european provinces uncoquerable. World conquest is not realistic when it comes to the vikings.


Well actually PseR, I think we can make total domination possible. I'm pretty shure I remember correctly that somewhere in the files you can define which regions not to be counted in. I think it was Komninos who mentioned this not all that long ago. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Norseman @ June 25 2004,03:48)]Well actually PseR, I think we can make total domination possible. I'm pretty shure I remember correctly that somewhere in the files you can define which regions not to be counted in. I think it was Komninos who mentioned this not all that long ago.
Good, throw in a bone to thoose total-domination-pack-of-wolves-guys. It seems we´re getting closer and closer to eliminating all the flaws that some has objected against before. Thanks for the enlightenment Norse.

[PseRamesses]

Regarding playing this mod with GA-goals I´ve been thinking a lot about it lately. Since it is only appliable to the timeframe 1087-1453AD couldn´t we manipulate the counter so that the starting year of 750AD would correspond to 1087AD and so on? So the comp is actually playing against you from 1087-1453 but the human player only see 750-1050 when playing

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 25 2004,11:05)]Regarding playing this mod with GA-goals I´ve been thinking a lot about it lately. Since it is only appliable to the timeframe 1087-1453AD couldn´t we manipulate the counter so that the starting year of 750AD would correspond to 1087AD and so on? So the comp is actually playing against you from 1087-1453 but the human player only see 750-1050 when playing
Sounds very cool, hope it will work. Making GA's work is very hard. Im having problems my self trying to make the game use different regowner_tabels. Someone once said it was hardcode, but im working on it. Maybe the only way is to switch between the old and new tabels http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif
Cool thing about the counter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (VikingHorde @ June 26 2004,16:19)]

Quote[/b] ]Sounds very cool, hope it will work. Cool thing about the counter.
Well, I don´t have a clue how to go about making it. I hope Norse, or some lurker, has an answer to this since the idea seems logical and doable.

[PseRamesses]

@Wilpurri,
Based on our discussion earlier on Novgorod I did some further research and found some interesting stuff regarding that and some other useful info.

Trade;
Trade between the Finns/ baltics and the slavic people to the south consisted mainly of skins, hides, wax, amber and slaves. Trade between Särkland (Turks), Grikland (Byzantium) brought arabian silver, spices, silk, byzantium gold, other textiles and precious artworks to the north. Kiev had a large glass pearl industry.

Settlements;
The Scandinavian vikings first bridgehead to the lucrative trade with the slavic tribes, Särkland and Grikland was Aldegjuborg (Staraya Ladoga) which was founded around the 750-760´s AD.
In 859 AD the vikings collects taxes from Novgorod and set themselves up as rulers but are overthrown in 862 AD when Rurik was called into power by the people living there so it seems to have been a significant settlement at Novgorod before its official founding-date of 862 AD. That´s why Rurik used it as a capitol. Based on that we can assume that Novgorod was actually founded some 10-30 years before that atleast, or even earlier.
Polotsk was a very important settlement since due east of it the vikings dragged their ships on land between the Dvina and Dnepr rivers. It had a huge marketplace, fortifications and a cemetary.
Gnesjdovo, some 200km east of Polotsk, was another such place. Archaeologists has digged out more scandinavian silver coins here than in the rest of Russia plus one of the largest silver-treasures from the whole viking-era.
Tjernigov, ”the warrior city”, was next to Kiev the most important city in the Rus realm.

Tribes;
Found a tibe living in the Dnepr-region called Petjenegs that was quite aggressive lashed with the vikings on numerous occations.

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 27 2004,10:18)]


Quote[/b] ]Sounds very cool, hope it will work. Cool thing about the counter.
Well, I don´t have a clue how to go about making it. I hope Norse, or some lurker, has an answer to this since the idea seems logical and doable.
I sure wish this was possible, but as far as I know this is hardcoded. At least that is what I've read in many other mod-development threads.

[Earl of Sandwich]

Hey, y'allz. I have decided to offer up some more names for you. For example, here are some names for the Lotharingian franks:

ADD_FORENAMES::
Charles
Lothar
Zwentibold
Louis
Rudolf
Otho
Arnulf

Zwentibold
Otho
Charles
Lothar
Rudolf
Conrad
Boso
Louis
Hugh
Lenthold
Alberic
Renault
Renald
Willem
Dietrich
Frederik
Gothelo
Godfrey
Adalbert
Gerard
Theobald
Richard
Hendrik
Walram
Sigehard
Hagenon
Reginar
Rainier
Richerus
Hernan
Baldwin
Arnulf
Dirk
Arnold
Floris
Sigfried
Giselbert
Gebhard
Wido
Lambert
Berengar

And here they are as defined in the loc/eng folder, excluding those I've already given as Frankish or German names:

// lotharingian names
[Zwentibold] {Zwentibold}
[Boso] {Boso}
[Hugh] {Hugh}
[Lenthold] {Lenthold}
[Alberic] {Alberic}
[Renault] {Renault}
[Renald] {Renald}
[Willem] {Willem}
[Dietrich] {Dietrich}
[Frederik] {Frederik}
[Gothelo] {Gothelo}
[Godfrey] {Godfrey}
[Adalbert] {Adalbert}
[Gerard] {Gerard}
[Theobald] {Theobald}
[Hendrik] {Hendrik}
[Walram] {Walram}
[Sigehard] {Sigehard}
[Hagenon] {Hagenon}
[Reginar] {Reginar}
[Rainier] {Rainier}
[Richerus] {Richerus}
[Hernan] {Hernan}
[Dirk] {Dirk}
[Arnold] {Arnold}
[Floris] {Floris}
[Sigfried] {Sigfried}
[Giselbert] {Giselbert}
[Gebhard] {Gebhard}
[Wido] {Wido}
[Lambert] {Lambert}
[Berengar] {Berengar}

Also, perhaps you'd like some frankish surnames. I haven't put this into loc/eng form, but here are some possible frankish surnames that you might want to look over:

Carolinger //royal name of course
Merovinger
of Metz
of Landen
of Herstal
of Austrasia
of Neustria
of Aquitaine
Martel
Martel
the Short
the Pious
the Bald
the Stammerer
the Fat
the Simple
the Indolent
the Red
the Good
Greymantle
the Black
the Bearded
the Bad Tempered
Longsword
the Fearless
the Bastard
of Châtillon
of Avesnes
of Poitiers
of Auvergne
Ironarm
the Great
the Eagle

[wilpuri]

Norse, I couldn't send the descriptions because your mail seems to be full?

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Earl of Sandwich @ June 27 2004,15:47)]Hey, y'allz. I have decided to offer up some more names for you.
Thanks for your contribution EoS, it´s much appreciated. Hope to hear from you again soon ;)

@Norse,
I know the GA-goals is hardcoded when it comes to the timeframe of the game I just had to present my thougts on the matter. One never know what it will produce so it´s worth the effort.

@Wilpurri,
You can always send me your info. All info gets relayed to Norse anyway.

[Norseman]

Hi crew

First of all, I'm leaving on summer vacation tomorrow and will in some periods not be online. I'll most likely be back at my own PC approx. mid august.

For the last days I've been working on the Tech-tree and build_prod.txt file. I've converted the Viking map to be able to test the build_prod file, as I'm using resources to separate between different cultures. By doing this, we will be able to attack and take a Frankish region as a viking faction, and then adopt the Frankish tech-tree and units. Voila Your viking faction is a Norman faction. At least that is the idea.

I've also started making the build_prod file itself following a plan I've made by using excel. Look at these two links, screenshots showing the plan for the Viking and the Anglo-saxon tech-tree: Viking Tech Tree (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/VikingTechTree_v1.jpg)
Anglo Tech Tree (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/AngloTechTree_v1.jpg)

This is of course not the final tech-tree, and in addition there will also be the common buildings like farmland, mines etc. There will also be individual tech-trees for Frankish and Eastern European culture. To achieve this we will have to sacrifice some resources, we must have at least 4. FOREST is unused, and I figured we could use SALT and IRON as well. They will still be in the game but as tradegoods. Then we must choose the 4th from either GOLD, SILVER or COPPER, which also will become a tradegood. Alternatively, we can spare IRON and turn both GOLD, SILVER AND COPPER into tradegoods(valuable ones...).

Any comments, ideas etc. are very welcome. Especially I need help on the Eastern European and the Frankish Tech-trees, as I'm having difficulty finding good and easily read info on this from the period 800-1000.


@PseRamesses

Quote[/b] ]@Norse,
I know the GA-goals is hardcoded when it comes to the timeframe of the game I just had to present my thoughts on the matter. One never know what it will produce so it´s worth the effort.

I'm afraid the time-counter is hardcoded as well(at least that is what I've read), but I really appreciate your many ideas and solutions. Keep it coming PseR


@Wilpurri

Quote[/b] ]
Norse, I couldn't send the descriptions because your mail seems to be full?

Hmm...the thing is, it's not full...I had this problem earlier as well, not sure what causes it. In the meantime just send it to PseR.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Norseman]

@All
When I come back in the autumn I will on PseR's advice edit and update my very first post in this thread so that it will give people an impression of how things are developing.

@VikingHorde
Here follows a quote from a post made by myself earlier, with my thoughts on the Viking units. Will this do as a starter for the unitprod-file?


Quote[/b] ]
Freemen (Bondis)
The free farmers, fishermen and artisans in a viking community, the rank and file fighters in a Jarl's or local chieftain's wartime army.

They will be armed with spears in the mod but without the rank bonus, as vikings fought man on man and not as a unit.

Norse Freemen
The normal Freemen unit won't be trainable on the West coast of Norway. Instead you will get Norse Freemen.
The West Coast of Norway is slightly different from other Viking regions. They were hardier, much less fertile and more warlike. Many of the smaller raiding forces came from these regions.

Fewer in numbers than the normal Freemen, but armed with axes instead of spears and with slightly better stats.

Housecarls
These men are full time warriors, handpicked among the freemen and serves in a Jarl's or Chieftain's hird.

Will be much like Norse Freemen, but with better stats.

Berserks
Need I say more?

Hirdmen
The bodyguard unit of the King and his sons. They are warriors known for their bravery, strength, skill and fierceness in battle. A rich king can have a large hird(train more units).

Jomsvikings
These will only be available in one region, by building Jomsborg(castle of the Jomsvikings) which will be a unique building. They will be something in between Hirdmen and Housecarls stats-wise.



These units will be the core units for a Viking faction.

Later on, when a certain level on the Tech-tree is reached(probably fort), the King will be able to raise an army not only based on the easily shattered loyalty of Jarls and freemen.
Available units will then be the Viking raider cavalry, archers and spearmen. This was the case with the Danes, who around the year 1000 built at least 3 fortifications (Trelleborg, Fyrkat, Aggersborg) with the purpose of training a more proper army. The Freemen units will represent the later Leidang as well.

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (Norseman @ June 28 2004,22:31)]@VikingHorde
Here follows a quote from a post made by myself earlier, with my thoughts on the Viking units. Will this do as a starter for the unitprod-file?
I think it's good enoght. Should they look like the standard units from VI or should I make some new cool shields for them? It's fairly easy to add them, so it's not a problem if so. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I will store this info in a text file for later use. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Norseman]

Quote[/b] (VikingHorde @ June 29 2004,00:06)]
Quote[/b] (Norseman @ June 28 2004,22:31)]@VikingHorde
Here follows a quote from a post made by myself earlier, with my thoughts on the Viking units. Will this do as a starter for the unitprod-file?
I think it's good enoght. Should they look like the standard units from VI or should I make some new cool shields for them? It's fairly easy to add them, so it's not a problem if so. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Lets just use the old ones for now. It's more important to get some files that work than making things shine - that we WILL do later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I do have some ideas though. For instance, it would be nice for the vikings if their typical sircular shield split into quarters use faction colours. This is quite easy as we just use the pink and light green colours on the BIF's. Well, this is for later anyway.

[PseRamesses]

@Norse,
Great work, as always Is it possible for you to implement units in the tech tree to make it easier to see what-needs-what and how units development links together? I also take for granted that you´ve got all the ideas and work Wilpurri has done on Finnish and Baltic units?
The split shield with faction colours is a good idea. Some units might have cloaks and that could also be in the respective faction colours.

[wilpuri]

@PseR
I have made some canges and additions to the units since I sent them to you. I can send the updated version to you, if you wish. As I told you earlier, I had problems sending them to Norse.

BTW, Haven't the hellenic guys made a battering ram? Do you guys think we could use it?

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (Norseman @ June 29 2004,03:54)]Lets just use the old ones for now. It's more important to get some files that work than making things shine - that we WILL do later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I do have some ideas though. For instance, it would be nice for the vikings if their typical sircular shield split into quarters use faction colours. This is quite easy as we just use the pink and light green colours on the BIF's. Well, this is for later anyway.
Sounds good enogth, but I might do the shields some time. Im looking forword to working on this project fulltime, teamwork is more fun.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 29 2004,03:51)]

Quote[/b] ]I have made some canges and additions to the units since I sent them to you. I can send the updated version to you, if you wish. As I told you earlier, I had problems sending them to Norse.

I think no one will work on units for a couple of weeks now. Norse has gone on holiday, VH has to finish his own mod (unless he insists start working on your units now). So it might be safe to say you can comfortably keep working on them for atleast a couple of weeks more atleast VH has time to do some work in this area.


Quote[/b] ]BTW, Haven't the hellenic guys made a battering ram? Do you guys think we could use it?

I´m no historian but I´ve never come across a battering ram being used in this era and in our playarea. If you can find some historical confirmation for some kind of siege-weapon that was commonly used during this period I´m all for it.

What you can also do W is take a look at region specific buildings for eastern Europe, Baltics and Finland. I remember that we talked about hill-forts earlier. See if you can find some more kind of building that we can use.

One type of building/ structure was a kind of permanent fishing traps. Huge constructions that could cover a whole bay. This kind of structure could boost farming-income and should be one of the first buildings you can construct in some provinces. Or maybee this structure could be buildable only in provinces with fish as a commodity?

[Earl of Sandwich]

Quote[/b] ]BTW, Haven't the hellenic guys made a battering ram? Do you guys think we could use it?

Oh really, is that so? I'm not DOWN with the whole Hellenic scene. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[PseRamesses]

Regarding unique and especially new buildings or structures anything seems to be possible nowdays. This thread in the METW forum opens wast potiential. Have you ever dreamt about fighting a battle underground with TW? This basically means we can do pretty much what we want when it comes to structures. If Wilpurri or VH (or both) could follow this topic and get familiar with it I´m shure we´ll have use of it, don´t you?

http://www.metw.net/forum....start=0 (http://www.metw.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=235&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

[wilpuri]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 29 2004,11:08)]
Quote[/b] ]BTW, Haven't the hellenic guys made a battering ram? Do you guys think we could use it?

I´m no historian but I´ve never come across a battering ram being used in this era and in our playarea. If you can find some historical confirmation for some kind of siege-weapon that was commonly used during this period I´m all for it.

What you can also do W is take a look at region specific buildings for eastern Europe, Baltics and Finland. I remember that we talked about hill-forts earlier. See if you can find some more kind of building that we can use.

One type of building/ structure was a kind of permanent fishing traps. Huge constructions that could cover a whole bay. This kind of structure could boost farming-income and should be one of the first buildings you can construct in some provinces. Or maybee this structure could be buildable only in provinces with fish as a commodity?
Trax told me that the Estonian tribes developed siege weapons (Battering Ram, perhaps catapult) against the crusaders, but this was in the 12th-13th century. I'm a bit hazy on when this mod starts/ends. Many date the viking age as being over after 1066, it's only after that date, that things get really interesting on the other side of the baltic, with the vikings of the east. I would very humbly suggest a time frame of 750 AD-1250 AD. It was really after the Scandinavian raids lulled (they did not stop completely), that the different baltic tribes got their act together, and managed to control the baltic at times.


I've come up with some buildings, which I have already posted in this thread. What part of Eastern Europe exactly?

About the fish trap building, I think it sounds good, and should not be limited to provinces with Fish as a trade good. Those provinces might get a higher income from that, but many peoples lived off fishing without exporting fish.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 29 2004,13:02)]

Quote[/b] ]I'm a bit hazy on when this mod starts/ends. Many date the viking age as being over after 1066, it's only after that date, that things get really interesting on the other side of the baltic, with the vikings of the east. I would very humbly suggest a time frame of 750 AD-1250 AD.

Roughly set to 750-1050AD. Remember that this should cover the high era of the vikings. Personally I´ve had the ambitions to make it an epic journey through Scandinavias history from 500-1300 dividing it into pre-, high- and post viking era. It still might be a reality after we finish this first part. It all dempends if we all want to do it then ;)
I´m aware of the lack of interesting stuff from this period in the Baltics, that´s why I´m so happy over all the stuff you´ve digged up.


Quote[/b] ]What part of Eastern Europe exactly?

Oh sorry, I was just thinking of the area in general that you´ve been working with all along.


Quote[/b] ]About the fish trap building, I think it sounds good, and should not be limited to provinces with Fish as a trade good. Those provinces might get a higher income from that, but many peoples lived off fishing without exporting fish.

I agree with that W. What I´m actually aiming at is to have three kinds of industry possibilities in a province; game, fish, crops (besides mines). Although I do belive that hunting should be obolete as farms take over as the main food producer. This can esily be portrayed by having some upgrade before forest clearing that generate hunting income.

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 29 2004,19:15)]Regarding unique and especially new buildings or structures anything seems to be possible nowdays. This thread in the METW forum opens wast potiential. Have you ever dreamt about fighting a battle underground with TW? This basically means we can do pretty much what we want when it comes to structures. If Wilpurri or VH (or both) could follow this topic and get familiar with it I´m shure we´ll have use of it, don´t you?

http://www.metw.net/forum....start=0 (http://www.metw.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=235&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
Cool link, I have never seen anything like this in MTW. It could be fun to make stuff like this in FotN mod. Fun fun fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[PseRamesses]

I´ve decided I need a break from work and I´ll take a short vacation with my daughters visiting my parents between the 9-18/7. I will be online a couple of times each day but nothing else. After that my daughters will go to their mother for a 3 week vacation so then I will have more time to finish the map.

[PseRamesses]

Great program that in atlas format lets you see borders change between factions from 1025-1996 in the MTW strategic map area. The prg costs $80 but has a student discount which brings it down to $30. Would be a great investment for serious modders.

http://www.clockwk.com/

[Shigawire]

Hello fellow Norsemen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Well well well.. it seems like you've got your work cut out for you.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Your map looks very good.
Here's a few names for chieftains in control of Vingulmark:

Alfgeir av Vingulmark
|
Gandalf Alfgeirsson
|
Hysing G. , Helsing G. & Hake Gandalfsson

(From Heimskringla)

Lykke til videre med mod'en. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Shigawire @ July 04 2004,00:48)]Here's a few names for chieftains in control of Vingulmark:
Alfgeir av Vingulmark
Gandalf Alfgeirsson
Hysing G. , Helsing G. & Hake Gandalfsson
Shigawire,
We seem to attract more and more handouts from visitors. Thanks Feel free to drop in with comments and suggsetions at anytime. Welcome back

[MiniKiller]

Shigware that kid....he totally and utterly freaks the complete hell out of me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (MiniKiller @ July 04 2004,22:28)]Shigware that kid....he totally and utterly freaks the complete hell out of me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
I think he might be a berserker trainee

[wilpuri]

Oh Shigawire is fairly harmless http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Hi Shig http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[PseRamesses]

Hi crew
Did you get the avatar link to our thread that I mailed you?

[MiniKiller]

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ July 05 2004,05:40)]Oh Shigawire is fairly harmless http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Hi Shig http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
fairly you say...

note to self: never I mean NEVER aggrivate Shig...EVER :)

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ July 05 2004,22:05)]Hi crew
Did you get the avatar link to our thread that I mailed you?
Jepp, got it. I will change mine once this mod becomes my main project (very soon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (VikingHorde @ July 07 2004,13:58)]
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ July 05 2004,22:05)]Hi crew
Did you get the avatar link to our thread that I mailed you?
Jepp, got it. I will change mine once this mod becomes my main project (very soon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).
VH,
That is a kind gesture of self-sacrifice that I would never ask of you although if you will seize all work on XL and only work on FotN it might be best. May I suggest that we try and reduce the size of both avatars so you can use them both? Or you could make a rip/ crack from the left upper corner down to the right bottom corner of your avatar and then we´ll fit in the FotN avatar to fill up the right side so that you can have a double avatar with two clickable links beneth it? I´m open to your suggestions.

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ July 08 2004,11:22)]VH,
That is a kind gesture of self-sacrifice that I would never ask of you although if you will seize all work on XL and only work on FotN it might be best. May I suggest that we try and reduce the size of both avatars so you can use them both? Or you could make a rip/ crack from the left upper corner down to the right bottom corner of your avatar and then we´ll fit in the FotN avatar to fill up the right side so that you can have a double avatar with two clickable links beneth it? I´m open to your suggestions.
Good idea, i'll think of something. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Shigawire]

I was a bit put off by Viking Invasion addon, and this mod seems to be all that VI was SUPPOSED to be.. what WAS positive about VI was the added factions and units to the REGULAR MTW campaign. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Finally the internal conflicts of Scandinavia are focused upon, with all the various regions of Norway. Instead of focusing purely on those measly little expeditions we had to Britain. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

What is Viking history without internal battles like Stiklestad? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif

[thrashaholic]

Hi all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif ,

I've noticed your mod idea, looks absolutely great I hope all goes well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

I never liked the way Wales was depicted in VI, the flag used for them wasn't actually used for a couple of hundred years after, and all the provinces are spelt wrongly So if you need any help with the Welsh side of things, just PM me (In fact I was planning on making some correct sheilds etc. for them anyway...), I'll help as best I can.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Shigawire @ July 10 2004,12:49)]

Quote[/b] ]I was a bit put off by Viking Invasion addon, and this mod seems to be all that VI was SUPPOSED to be.. what WAS positive about VI was the added factions and units to the REGULAR MTW campaign.

Couldn´t agree with you more. That´s the main reason Norse and I teamed on this and we´ll try to make the best the TW-engine allows us to do.


Quote[/b] ]Finally the internal conflicts of Scandinavia are focused upon, with all the various regions of Norway. Instead of focusing purely on those measly little expeditions we had to Britain.

What we´re aiming at here is to have the Nowegian explorations, the Danish conquests and the Swedish trade as a frame for the three playable vikings. With Odin present in the game instead of the Pope and the unique rading-party unit instead of the crusade this should be really fun to play, not only as an Scandinavian. That and a whole new and re-worked tech-tree by Norse, a zillion new units etc it could prove to be a killer. Any info, suggestions or comments on this mod is always appreciated. If you have info that we don´t seem to be aware of, please share it since alot of people are very eager for this mods release.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 11 2004,11:05)]I never liked the way Wales was depicted in VI, the flag used for them wasn't actually used for a couple of hundred years after, and all the provinces are spelt wrongly So if you need any help with the Welsh side of things, just PM me (In fact I was planning on making some correct sheilds etc. for them anyway...), I'll help as best I can.
Well thanks trashaholic
Any info on anything realted to the viking world and the timeframe of 750-1050Ad that will improve this mod is greatly appreciated so feel free to join in... for a while, permanently or as long as you enjoy it m8 Meanwhile have a jug of mead on me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[thrashaholic]

OK, well thanks for having me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

First off, let's use the proper names in Cymraeg (Welsh) for the provinces in Wales:

Guined should be changed to Gwynedd
Pouis should be changed to Powys
Guent should be changed to Gwent
Defet should be changed to Dyfed
Clwyd is correct anyway

Secondly, I think you have two options really with the Welsh faction...

1) Make the kingdom divided as it was in reality at 750AD into the four major principalities, namely: Gwynedd, Powys, Gwent and Deheubarth, and then have the Cornish as rebels; making the entire Welsh experience a lot harder...

or 2) make all of Wales (except possibly Gwent, and you could possibly add Cornwall for balance purposes) united as one faction called the Cymry (meaning fellow countrymen), as was acheived by Rhodri Mawr 'the Great' in 878, and again by his grandson Hywel Dda 'the Good' in 950.

In both instances I would make the Strathclyders their own faction as they were once part of the Brythonic kingdom (of which Wales was a part) that stretched across England, Wales and parts of Scotland prior to the Saxon invasion, and, like the Welsh, offered stout resistance against the Saxons until they were overcome by the Goidelics: the Scots and the Picts.

Personally, I prefer option 2 because, despite it not being totally historically accurate for the 100 years or so, it is accurate for a longer period of time after 878, is probably easier to implement, and would create a far better balance in-game.

EDIT: Also, I don't know if it's possible, I think it would be a good idea if the primary objective for the Welsh would be to reclaim the lands taken by the Anglo-Saxons after Vortigern, King of Britain, invited them into England. So maybe offering some sort of incentive for the Welsh to take up an agrressive foreign policy against the Saxon Kingdoms, whilst having to hold off the Vikings and protect their homelands...

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 11 2004,14:06)]2) make all of Wales (except possibly Gwent, and you could possibly add Cornwall for balance purposes) united as one faction called the Cymry (meaning fellow countrymen), as was acheived by Rhodri Mawr 'the Great' in 878, and again by his grandson Hywel Dda 'the Good' in 950.

Personally, I prefer option 2 because, despite it not being totally historically accurate for the 100 years or so, it is accurate for a longer period of time after 878, is probably easier to implement, and would create a far better balance in-game.

EDIT: Also, I don't know if it's possible, I think it would be a good idea if the primary objective for the Welsh would be to reclaim the lands taken by the Anglo-Saxons after Vortigern, King of Britain, invited them into England. So maybe offering some sort of incentive for the Welsh to take up an agrressive foreign policy against the Saxon Kingdoms, whilst having to hold off the Vikings and protect their homelands...
I agree that option 2 is better although it´s a bit unhistorical but will suit the main part of the mod better in case of balance and game play. If I recall it correctly only one english fac will be added in the south-esat part to balance Mercia and Saxon. We´re also looking into the possibility to add another Irish faction too. Earlier in this thread I posted some kingslists for the possible factions of the Brittish Isles, maybee you can have a look and see if I´ve missed something?

[thrashaholic]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ July 11 2004,21:48)]I agree that option 2 is better although it´s a bit unhistorical but will suit the main part of the mod better in case of balance and game play. If I recall it correctly only one english fac will be added in the south-esat part to balance Mercia and Saxon. We´re also looking into the possibility to add another Irish faction too. Earlier in this thread I posted some kingslists for the possible factions of the Brittish Isles, maybee you can have a look and see if I´ve missed something?
Yeah, I had a quick look at your info earlier on, it all looks fairly comprehensive...

As for the South Eastern English faction, if my memory serves me correctly, the Jutes (a Saxon faction) occupied East Anglia, although I'm not entirely certain. I'll do some research into it.

Another idea, have you thought of using the other various religions from MTW (Muslim, Jewish, Catholic etc.) to represent the different cultures for your mod, for example Celtic Christains had very different customs from their Germanic counterparts... I don't really know whether the current religions system could really represent the aminosity felt between the various Christian cultures in Britain (Celtic and Saxon), but it might be a start. Perhaps it could be used to encourage the Welsh faction to try and retake English lands?

Oh, and I've done a little research into a more appropriate Welsh flag (the one used in VI was created many hundreds of years after...) I've found three possible contenders, but they're all about a hundred years too late for the time period in the game... but at least that's better that at the moment. I'll make them all up and you can see if you like them...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] ]As for the South Eastern English faction, if my memory serves me correctly, the Jutes (a Saxon faction) occupied East Anglia, although I'm not entirely certain. I'll do some research into it.

The Jutes, East Anglia, Wessex and maybee Sussex all had a fairly strong presence in the area but I think my vote will go to E.A. Although not the most numerous or influential, their name was ultimately applied to the whole Teuton-British establishment; Anglaland.
Redwald.................................c. 590/600-616/27
Earpwald....................................616/27-627/8?
Sigebert.....................................630/1- ? with...
Egric........................................635 ?- ?
Annah........................................635 ?-654
Æthelhere..........................................654
Æthelwold......................................654-664
Aldwulf........................................664-713
Alfwold........................................713-749
Hunn...........................................749- ? with...
Beorna.........................................749- aft. 758 and...
Albert.........................................749- ?
Æthelred..................................aft. 758- ?
Æthelbert........................................ -794
Eadwald.....................................fl. c. 798
Æthelstan...................................c. 825-c. 840
Æthelward...................................c. 840-c. 855
Edmund.........................................855-870
Under Scandinavian (Danish) rule...............870-879
Oswald....................................870-876
Æthelred..................................876-879
A VIKING KINGDOM
Guthrum Æthelstan..............................879-890
Eric...........................................890-902
Guthrum (II)...................................902-917
To England thereafter...
Earls of East Anglia
Æthelwine.................................962-992
Harold Godwinson (King as H. II 1066)....1044-1066 with...
Gyrth....................................1057-106


Quote[/b] ]Another idea, have you thought of using the other various religions from MTW (Muslim, Jewish, Catholic etc.) to represent the different cultures for your mod, for example Celtic Christains had very different customs from their Germanic counterparts... I don't really know whether the current religions system could really represent the aminosity felt between the various Christian cultures in Britain (Celtic and Saxon), but it might be a start. Perhaps it could be used to encourage the Welsh faction to try and retake English lands?

Well we have had some discussions on this matter before but haven´t finalised anything yet. The viking asa-beliefs, pagan Baltics, not shure when the orthodox church was introduced in Russia but I belive it was on a later date than the main timeframe of the game - correct me if I´m wrong, the catholics of Europe and the pagan parts of the Brittish Isles are the main religions we´ve discussed. I´m not shure however how many religions we can use, is it 4 or more?


Quote[/b] ]Oh, and I've done a little research into a more appropriate Welsh flag (the one used in VI was created many hundreds of years after...) I've found three possible contenders, but they're all about a hundred years too late for the time period in the game... but at least that's better that at the moment. I'll make them all up and you can see if you like them...
That´s far better than the one used in VI so go ahead and upload it when ready.

[thrashaholic]

welsh faction flags (http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/mike-rhys-m/pics.html)

here are the three contenders for the welsh flags, each one was the coat of arms for various welsh princes in the 12th and 13th centuries (not quite the right time frame I know, but it's as close as I found). I feel there are pros and cons with all of them...

The arms of Owain Gwynedd is the closest to the time-frame of the game(died 1170), but I feel it could be easily confused with the 'Three Lions' of the English flag.

The arms of Rhys ap Gruffedd is the second closest to the time frame of the game (died 1197), and no confusion would occur with England, but I fear it might be the most complicated to make in the game.

The arms of Llywellyn ap Gruffedd is my personal favourite, despite it being the furthest from the game (died 1282). This emblem was a sign of Welsh nationalism right up to today, it's fairly simple, but distinctive, and so wouldn't be confused with any other factions.

Anyway, I hope that helps, and bear in mind I've got some modding experience myself so would be happy to assist with that side if you want as well as just supplying information.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 12 2004,05:32)]

Quote[/b] ]welsh faction flags (http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/mike-rhys-m/pics.html)

Outstanding They don´t look anything like the one in VI, great Do you know the history behind them? The earliest flag contains three lions right? Is it three minor kingdoms joined together? Usually it helps to know the background of a flag/ banner to determine which one would be most suitable to use. I especially like the first and last. The first doesn´t get mixed up with the English since they have three gold/ yellow lions IMHO and don´t appear in the game. Can´t remember on top of my head what the Saxon flag looks like, isn´t there three lions there too?


Quote[/b] ]Anyway, I hope that helps, and bear in mind I've got some modding experience myself so would be happy to assist with that side if you want as well as just supplying information.

He he, I was rather hoping you´d say that Help from experienced modders are always welcome. Mail me at pse@brevet.se and we´ll talk more and I´ll get you the updated info you need. Welcome aboard our dragon cruiser

[thrashaholic]

Sure I can give some history for them all, but bear in mind all of the flags are from after the end date for your mod.

The first two flags come from the 12th century.

The death of Henry I of England in 1135 was the signal for more vigorous and more hostile policies by the Welsh, though firm action by Stephen (the king who succeeded Henry) and the marcher lords held the promise of successful defence. Henry II succeeded Stephen in December 1154, determined to restore authority to the kingdom and to repair the damage caused by civil strife and the lack of a strong central administration. By 1157 he was ready to turn his attention to Wales.

Two princes carried Wales through these difficult years, Owain Gwynedd in the north and Rhys ap Gruffydd in south Wales. Both had complex problems to deal with: the rival Welsh dynasties, the marcher lords, and to live in the shadow of a rich and powerful neighbour.

Owain Gwynedd, Prince of Gwynedd 1137-70, was born circa 1109. In 1137 he succeeded his father Gruffydd ap Cynan (1081-1137) to the kingdom of Gwynedd, which covered most of north Wales. While England was engaged in civil war, Owain used his skill as statesman and soldier to extend his frontiers. In 1157 Henry II led his first campaign against Owain, but it ended in a truce. He was required to do homage to Henry but it was not long before Owain was acting with complete independence. When Madog ap Maredudd died in 1160, he attacked Powys and extended his influence to the east. Six years later, the Council of Woodstock attempted to reduce the Welsh princes from client status to that of dependent vassalage, and the subsequent uprising was led by Owain and Rhys ap Gruffydd of south Wales. Henry's second attempt at subduing Wales failed ignominiously and left Owain free to capture Basingwerk and Rhuddlan castles (1166-67). In 1168 he set foot on negotiations with Louis VII of France to build an alliance between Gwynedd and France against their common enemy. It was a course which required great finesse and firm judgement. In one direction it pointed to a policy which would be used to good effect by later rulers of Gwynedd, the search for recognition and an alliance in Europe. Having openly defied Henry in 1168 by offering to help Louis, Owain maintained his independent position until his death. He left behind him a reputation of wisdom and magnanimity.

In south Wales a major development in the 12th century was the establishment of Rhys ap Gruffydd - known as The Lord Rhys - as the ruler of a reinvigorated kingdom of Deheubarth. After Gruffydd's death in 1137 his four sons worked closely together to defend and consolidate their territory. Each son, Anarawd, Cadell, Maredudd and Rhys took the lead in succession, and there seems to have been no discord between them. Their raids extended from west Wales to the lordship of Glamorgan. Anarawd was assassinated by men from north Wales in 1143; Cadell and his younger brothers achieved the reconquest of Ceredigion, making it once more part of Deheubarth, before Cadell was wounded so severely by Normans from Tenby that he was effectively removed from the political scene. Maredudd died in 1155, leaving Rhys as ruler of the southern kingdom.

Between 1158 and 1165 Rhys was under heavy pressure from Henry II. He was persuaded to submit, despite the loss of territory involved when Ceredigion and Cantref Bychan were restored to their Norman lords. Immediate retaliation by Rhys and his kinsmen, an attempt to take Carmarthen in 1159, and a successful attack on Llandovery in 1162 pointed for Henry II a recurrent danger: the Welsh prince would not accept an enhanced Anglo-Norman presence in West Wales.


The third flag is of the last Welsh prince and from the 13th century.

The years that followed the death of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth saw a major reversal in the fortunes of Gwynedd, culminating in the Treaty of Woodstock, concluded with King Henry III in 1247, a year after the death of Llywelyn's son Dafydd. Under the terms of the treaty, Gwynedd lost all its lands to the east of the River Conwy.

In 1255, Llywelyn ap Gruffydd defeated his brothers Owain (d.1282) and Dafydd (d.1283), in battle at Bryn Derwin. Owain was imprisoned, and Llywelyn set about reasserting the authority of Gwynedd and thereafter extending it into a supremacy over much of the rest of Wales. In 1267 his position as overlord was recognized by Henry III in the Treaty of Montgomery when the English king accepted Llywelyn's homage as prince of Wales.

Ten years after his recognition as the prince of Wales by Henry III, Llywelyn was to suffer a humiliating defeat at the hands of the new King Edward I. From the outset, Llywelyn seemed almost to go out of his way to court Edward's anger. In particular, he refused to yield the homage and money payments owing to the king under the terms of the Treaty of Montgomery. He tempted fate further by arranging to marry Eleanor, daughter of rebel baron Simon de Montfort, an act destined to strain Edward's patience to the limit.

Llywelyn began his own castle campaign by strengthening his grandfather's castles at Criccieth, Ewloe, and Dolwyddelan. Moreover, in 1273 he started to build a new castle at Dolforwyn, high above the Severn valley, posing a challenge to the royal frontier post at Montgomery. The prince's refusal to abandon this project was just one incident in an eventual catalogue of disagreements with the new king.

Enough was enough, and in 1276-77 Edward had decided to settle accounts with the recalcitrant Welsh prince. Edward himself took the field at Chester in July 1277, and by August he had some 15,600 troops in his pay. Against these odds, Llywelyn had no choice but to sue for peace. The ensuing Treaty of Aberconwy represented a comprehensive humiliation for the prince of Wales. Stripped of his overlordship he had won ten years earlier, Gwynedd was again reduced to its traditional heartland to the west of the River Conwy.

On 21 March 1282, Llywelyn's brother, Dafydd, attacked Hawarden Castle and sparked off the war of 1282-83. Llywelyn was faced with an almost impossible dilemma. Torn between his fealty to the king and his loyalty to his brother Dafydd and his people, Llywelyn was to side with his brother and led the Welsh resistance to the inevitable invasion by Edward I. By the end of the year Llywelyn was dead, having been killed on 11 December in a brief engagement with English forces at Irfon Bridge near Builth Wells.

(source: castle-wales)

EDIT: PS I could help with the Welsh units as well I you want.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 12 2004,13:46)]

Quote[/b] ]Sure I can give some history for them all, but bear in mind all of the flags are from after the end date for your mod.

Do you what the lions represent, the colours etc? I was a bit unclear earlier, sorry


Quote[/b] ] PS I could help with the Welsh units as well If you want.

Great Do you have any suggestions from the top of your head now?
If you want you can also look into all the faction specifics of the Welsh and if you have the time and feel to start on other English factions just let me know. We already have a lot of material from VI plus info we´ve researched ourselves but names, kings, heroes, provinces, terrain, buildings etc are always short of demand. Some unique building/ structure or units always puts flavour to a faction, don´t you think? Regarding provinces I think the Welsh will loose one of the northern provinces from VI (can´t remember it´s name). Could you look into making a four province Welsh kingdom, not counting Cornwall which I´n not shure should belong to the Welsh at all, what do you think?

[thrashaholic]

Welsh Army List

Cavalry

Teulu-

Literally meaning “family”, the Teulu were the professional noble bodyguards of individual princes and chieftains. Although cavalry are generally not best suited to the rough mountainous terrain of Cymru (Wales), the Teulu often rode into battle. Being of the nobility, the Teulu could afford the best of military equipment and were very well armed by Celtic standards: they wore chain mail and helmets, and carried a shield and a lance, making them a pivotal force on the battlefield.

Royal unit of 40 men
Strong charge
Good Attack
Good Morale
Armoured
Can dismount before battle (…into Bonheddwr)
(Should be pretty expensive)

Infantry

Spear-men

Same as VI (round shield)

Celtic Warriors

Same as VI

Archers

Same as VI

Javelin-men

Same as VI “dart-men”

Merionydd long spear-men

The spear was the weapon of choice in Wales, with those from the North being particularly skilled in its use. The men of the Merionydd area of Gwynedd were renowned throughout for their superb ability with the spear. The general consensus amongst the Cymry (Welsh) was “the longer the spear the better”, and as such the men of Merionydd carried spears as long as pikes. As well as their pikes, they had small round shields and fought in Phalanx-like formations.
60 man unit (best in deep formations etc.), fast, weak defence/attack, poor morale, strong charge, no armour, only available in Gwynydd




Welsh Bandits

Same as VI (massive valour bonus in Gwent)

Gwent Warriors

Frequent in fighting within the principality and border skirmishes with the English led to the men of Gwent becoming accustomed to war, they became “a jack of all trades”. Carrying a powerful bow, that could pin a horseman’s leg to his horse, a large sword and a small round shield, the prominent tactics in Gwent were to ambush the enemy, pepper them with arrows and then charge in for the kill.

60 man unit, fast, strong charge, strong attack, no armour, poor morale, only available in Gwent

Bonheddwr

The Bonheddwr were free nobles, the elite foot soldiers of the Prince’s armies. Before a battle these champions would often walk forward in front of their army insulting, taunting and challenging their opposition (much to the amusement of their fellows), and be accompanied by shouting and jeering from the lower ranking men, and the din of their war trumpets. The Bonheddwr were lightly armoured, and the individual carried a spear, a small round shield and several javelins into battle.

40 man unit, fast, strong charge, good attack, armoured



NO SEIGE ENGINES… WHATSOEVER


Here is Wales with four provinces as aked...

Wales regions (http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/mike-rhys-m/map.html)

[thrashaholic]

I have drawn a map of the factions in England and Wales...

British factions (http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/mike-rhys-m/britfactions)

Now a little explaination (including the Cornwall problem):

With regard to the extra Saxon faction I think you have two options Sussex (with Kent) or Essex (with East Anglia), and then the two provinces that make up the kingdom that you haven't chosen should be rebel.

IMHO Strathcylde should get its own faction as they were a major power of the remaining Celtic Britons (the others being the Welsh and the Cornish), and maintained their independence and resisted the English up until 945. Strathclyde should recieve the province they currently have in VI and Cumbria (from the Northumbrians). I'll do some more research into them soon ~:thumb:

I've put Gwent in a dotted line to suggest that it could be a rebel province because strictly speaking it was independent at the time, but it could be included with Wales for balance and cultural reasons.

Now onto Cornwall....*drumroll*.... well, historically it was divided from Wales at the battle of Dyrham in 577, and had its own royal lineage and language, similar, but seperate from the Welsh. On the other hand though, the English at the time reffered to Cornwall as West Wales. I can see benefits and adavantages for both giving Cornwall to Wales and not doing so: Historically it would be innacurate to do so, and it might be an advantage for an otherwise united Wales to have an easily defensible foot-hold against the Saxons in South-West England, but making it a rebel province IMO would make it too weak to put up any sort of defence against the English, which in reality it did, maintaining its independence for several hundred years... It's up to you...

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 14 2004,08:34)]
Great units composition and I do like the unique province units and their stats. How was the Welsh bowmen in comparison with their neighbours at this time? I´ve always thought they were better?


Quote[/b] ]I have drawn a map of the factions in England and Wales... IMHO Strathcylde should get its own faction as they were a major power of the remaining Celtic Britons (the others being the Welsh and the Cornish), and maintained their independence and resisted the English up until 945. Strathclyde should recieve the province they currently have in VI and Cumbria (from the Northumbrians).

I defenitely know that we can fit in one fac in the south-east part and one more on Ireland. I do agree however that Strathclyde is the first runner up for a third fac addition. If we can´t fit them in they will be very strong and i agree that they should also have Cumbria.


Quote[/b] ]With regard to the extra Saxon faction I think you have two options Sussex (with Kent) or Essex (with East Anglia), and then the two provinces that make up the kingdom that you haven't chosen should be rebel.

So EA was indeed inferior to both Sussex and Wessex?


Quote[/b] ]I've put Gwent in a dotted line to suggest that it could be a rebel province because strictly speaking it was independent at the time, but it could be included with Wales for balance and cultural reasons.

I think we´ll let game play and balance decide on this. It´s and interesting prov to hold though due to the unique units there.


Quote[/b] ]Now onto Cornwall....*drumroll*.... well, historically it was divided from Wales at the battle of Dyrham in 577, and had its own royal lineage and language, similar, but seperate from the Welsh. On the other hand though, the English at the time reffered to Cornwall as West Wales. I can see benefits and adavantages for both giving Cornwall to Wales and not doing so: Historically it would be innacurate to do so, and it might be an advantage for an otherwise united Wales to have an easily defensible foot-hold against the Saxons in South-West England, but making it a rebel province IMO would make it too weak to put up any sort of defence against the English, which in reality it did, maintaining its independence for several hundred years....

Hmm, this is a dilemma. Personally I feel that leaving Cornwall to the Welsh do prove to be more of a challenge both for the Welsh and the Saxons. And you´re right that the AI won´t put up half the fight if they are rebs.

Really nice work Trashaholic

When you go through other facs in the Brittish Isles keep in mind that we´re trying to keep as many provs from the original VI game as possible. We´ve already eliminated one Welsh and added one Irish and maybee we´ll have to take away one in the Scot/ Pict region as well all due to not getting the map quite as big as in VI. Keep up the good work

[VikingHorde]

Cool stuff, it's good to get some info on units. It's often hard to find the right info to make the stats from. Good work thrashaholic. Welcome BTW https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[thrashaholic]

Quote[/b] ]
With regard to the extra Saxon faction I think you have two options Sussex (with Kent) or Essex (with East Anglia), and then the two provinces that make up the kingdom that you haven't chosen should be rebel.


So EA was indeed inferior to both Sussex and Wessex?


Maybe, maybe not, I mostly made that decision based on my own prejudices https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif I'm live in Sussex you see, and so don't like Kent very much. And I feel Suusex or Essex or Wessex sound nicer than East Anglia. I probably should have done some more research before posting that https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif , but don't worry, I'll get back on the job and I'll look into this South-Eastern faction...

I'll also try and look into some of the more unique aspects of the Welsh culture at the time, so we might get some unique buildings for them.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 16 2004,02:14)]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe, maybe not, I mostly made that decision based on my own prejudices https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif I probably should have done some more research before posting that https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif , but don't worry, I'll get back on the job and I'll look into this South-Eastern faction...

That´s ok, we all have our favourites, he he I have no info on Essex, can you post some?
IMO both Sussex and Kent are ruled out because they came under Mercian rule from 750 and 785. Wessex on the other hand is, with EA, the strongest contender for our new SE faction. Founded around 519AD, gained overlordship over all the saxon when defeating the Mercians in 825AD and gained the preemminent position in SE England from c. 900AD and can roughly from this time be identified as England.


Quote[/b] ]I'll also try and look into some of the more unique aspects of the Welsh culture at the time, so we might get some unique buildings for them.

To get some ideas you might wanna check out earlier posts in this thread and Norse´s anglo-tech tree on page 11. Besides unique units we´re looking for unique structures that we can incorporate in the tech-tree or even on the battle-maps. Ex: In Finland and the Baltics thousands of hill-forts still litters the countryside. Always located on a hill, surrounded preferably by forest and protected by a man-high stone wall. This will probably be used to some extent on the province maps for that region.

[thrashaholic]

OK, I've done a whole load more research, and it turns out you were right, East Anglia was historically the most dominant faction from thse four rebel provinces in VI. But, I have found evidence suggesting that the areas of Middlesex and Kent were both dependencies and very culturally similar to Essex, which might make it a better faction choice gameplay-wise.

Maybe we could have both?

[thrashaholic]

OK, I've done some more work and have drawn up a map of all the possible British and Irish factions using the VI map:

map (http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/mike-rhys-m/britfactions.html)

there's an explaination on the page.

EDIT: and here's the page I got the Irish stuff from, it's pretty good, it has all the names of the kings and some history for all the Irish provinces Irish site (http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/province.htm)

[Aethelred]

I'm not sure on the time frame of this mod but on the unique buildings thing Alfred the Great built a series of fortifications called Burghs at strategic points to defend against the Danes, could perhaps be the saxon equivilant of a small fort (not as large as a full scale fort but not as small as a stockade?)

Also there are Thegns who were freemen and officials most of whom's lord was the King and were primarily warriors who acted as his bodyguard but some served the Eeorls or wealthier Thegns and were supported by the Fyrd.


in the 11th (i think) century there are the Huscarles and also Butsecarles who were a naval equivilant of Huscarles but MAY also have fought on land.

[Aethelred]

oh and the Thegns were preceded by the Gesith the companions of a King or Lord.

[Inuyasha12]

Ummmm, How far are you guys.
Do you have a working map?
New units?
Portraits?
When can i expect a beta? Estimation? Guess


Your mod sounds great, i really like the way its looking.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Aethelred @ July 16 2004,09:08)]I'm not sure on the time frame of this mod but on the unique buildings thing Alfred the Great built a series of fortifications called Burghs at strategic points to defend against the Danes, could perhaps be the saxon equivilant of a small fort (not as large as a full scale fort but not as small as a stockade?)

Also there are Thegns who were freemen and officials most of whom's lord was the King and were primarily warriors who acted as his bodyguard but some served the Eeorls or wealthier Thegns and were supported by the Fyrd.


in the 11th (i think) century there are the Huscarles and also Butsecarles who were a naval equivilant of Huscarles but MAY also have fought on land.
The timeframe of this mod is roughly from 750 to 1050AD. Theese fortifications, burghs, you mention sounds interesting enough to make a new building. Do you have more data for the thegns? Do you have more info on them, links etc? Thanks in advance

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Inuyasha12 @ July 16 2004,15:51)]Ummmm, How far are you guys. Do you have a working map? New units? Portraits? When can i expect a beta? Estimation? Your mod sounds great, i really like the way its looking.
Check out this thread for more info on new units, new tech-trees, the general playarea and another cool stuff like having Odin present in the game and replacing the crusades with a viking raiding party. All info are there. Norse will be back around the 10th of august and then I will present a raw-map.
I´m currently working on different coatings for the final map but haven´t found any that I´m 100% satisfied with. I want to bring the landscape more to life, like in RTW and make it more visable so that you can clearly see what kind of terrain a certain province have just by looking at the strategy map. This way you can plan your actions more easily according to the province topography, rivers, forrests etc. As you know this info is very vague in MTW where you can hold the cursor over a designated province and get a description. This is not satisfactory in my opinion.
Norse is making the different tech-trees and Vikinghorde is gonna help him out with some graphics and text editing, Wilpurri and Trax are our main researchers and I´m more keen on mapmaking. Since our goal is to make a far better viking campaign than VI we really have no release date set and I don´t want to guess either so just check back on a regular basis. When we´re getting ready you´ll be shure to know. Take care

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 16 2004,06:32)]OK, I've done a whole load more research, and it turns out you were right, East Anglia was historically the most dominant faction from thse four rebel provinces in VI. But, I have found evidence suggesting that the areas of Middlesex and Kent were both dependencies and very culturally similar to Essex, which might make it a better faction choice gameplay-wise.
Can you elaborate on this? We do agree upon having a faction in SE England and I think it´s important to pic the one that is the major contender for this rather than base it on personal opinion. I´m more keen on making this as accurate historically as we possible can.

BTW, good Irish link. What we´re planning is to fit in one more province on Ireland and add one more faction there.

[thrashaholic]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ July 17 2004,11:28)]
Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 16 2004,06:32)]OK, I've done a whole load more research, and it turns out you were right, East Anglia was historically the most dominant faction from thse four rebel provinces in VI. But, I have found evidence suggesting that the areas of Middlesex and Kent were both dependencies and very culturally similar to Essex, which might make it a better faction choice gameplay-wise.
Can you elaborate on this? We do agree upon having a faction in SE England and I think it´s important to pic the one that is the major contender for this rather than base it on personal opinion. I´m more keen on making this as accurate historically as we possible can.

BTW, good Irish link. What we´re planning is to fit in one more province on Ireland and add one more faction there.
Right, ok, for historical accuracy I would choose East Anglia as the new South East faction, they were the next most powerful Anglo-Saxon kingdom after Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria.

Looking at some of the maps I've studied though, East Anglia should get two provinces (rather than the one that the rebel faction got): East Engle and Middle Engle from the Mercians.

I've drawn it all up on this map (http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/mike-rhys-m/britfactions.html) https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

I was only suggesting Essex might be better for gameplay because they would have more directions for expansion, but East Anglia it is https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Aethelred]

sorry for the disorganised nature of my previous posts but i was in a hurry:

In the 7th Century there were two classes of Warrior:

Geoguth (Youth), these were young un married warriors who were often the sons of Duguth (Proven Warriors) who owned
no land of their own and instead dwelt with their lord serving him where ever he went.Once a Geoguth had served and proven
himself to his Lord satisfaction he was given an endowment of land and he became a Duguth.

Duguth (Proven Warriors) no longer dwelt in their Lord's household, married and raised a family. They still attended councils and as he became more prosperous he would raise retainers of his own from the more prosperous Ceorls called Geneats and other Geoguths who had not yet sworn themselves to the King or other lord and these formed his Hearth Troop.

These two classes and their followers would then join the Kings Gesith (Companions) when he assembled his army to make up the Fyrd.

In the mid 9th century these classes were replaced by Drengs and Thegns:

Drengs (young warriors) performed the same duties as Geoguths.

Thegns (or Thanes) were primarily warriors who mostly served the King (Kings Thengs and the Most trusted Kings Thegns were also called Gesith.) but the Ealdormen (Eorls)
or even richer Thegns had their own Lesser Thegns. They served because the King was their Lord and also the amount of land they owned (land was provided by the King/Eorl) required that they do so (1 warrior for every 5 hides of land so most often Thegns were expected to perform military service but if he owned more than 5 hides then his own Lesser Thegns or Ceorls would also serve).Ceorls (free-folk, farmers etc) who owned 5 Hides of land (1 Hide = amount of landed needed to support 1 family) became entitled to the rights and privilages of a Thegn. The Thegns served the King or other Lord on a rotation and went with him everywhere acting as both his bodyguard and lesser officials, along with military service they were required to repair fortresses, work on bridges etc and also other requirments depending on the condition/size of their own estate ordered by the Lord.Thegns were usually armed with sword or spear and round shield as well as a small knife called a scramseaxe which was carried by almost every warrior(Gesith, Thegn or Ceorl) and armoured with a mail shirt called a Byrnie and a helmet.


When Huscarles were introduced they replaced/were made up of the remaining elements of the Gesith.

[PseRamesses]

Aethelred, very interesting This actually gives me an idea regarding units and maybee Norse or VH can answer if it´s possible.
This system with younger unproven warriors that with time and experience will turn into hardened veterans awarded by their leader with lands etc makes me think of taking a unit into action and when he reaches a certain experience/ valour level he turns into a better and more upgraded unit?
Could this even be done?

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ July 18 2004,19:05)]Aethelred, very interesting This actually gives me an idea regarding units and maybee Norse or VH can answer if it´s possible.
This system with younger unproven warriors that with time and experience will turn into hardened veterans awarded by their leader with lands etc makes me think of taking a unit into action and when he reaches a certain experience/ valour level he turns into a better and more upgraded unit?
Could this even be done?
It could be cool units to add, but I don't think it's possible to upgrade younger warriors into better units in time. They can only be build and get armour upgades like all normal units. It could had been cool if a unit can be upgraded ones it gets 2 valor or something like that, but I don't think it's possible. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (VikingHorde @ July 18 2004,14:35)]It could had been cool if a unit can be upgraded ones it gets 2 valor or something like that, but I don't think it's possible. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
Yup, that´s what I thought. But you know me... turning every stone in search for a gem ;)

[PseRamesses]

@trashaholic,
Got you welsh shield suggestions. Don´t have the necessary program though to view it. May I suggest you upload them here instead?

[thrashaholic]

OK, here they are but in jpeg form, they may look slightly different in-game, and I only spent about half a hour for all of them, so they look a bit rough, I'll work some more on which ever you prefer. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

shields (http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/mike-rhys-m/pics.html)

PS PseRamesses thanks for the help uploading pictures, from now on I'll try uploading and posting all my pictures rather than linking them.

https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 20 2004,03:11)]

Quote[/b] ]OK, here they are but in jpeg form, they may look slightly different in-game, and I only spent about half a hour for all of them, so they look a bit rough, I'll work some more on which ever you prefer.

Lokks good for now. We´ll return to them when we start working on the shields. It´s Norse´s dept. and maybee VH will help out too?


Quote[/b] ]PS PseRamesses thanks for the help uploading pictures, from now on I'll try uploading and posting all my pictures rather than linking them.

No prob m8 Easy, wasn´t it? Looking forward to more pic-posts.
https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aethelred]

On the Burgh's thing from what i've read it seems most were either wooden pallisades/forts or like the old hill forts (series of earth banks and ditches and then the actual fortification at the top)dunno if this helps any...

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Aethelred @ July 22 2004,07:04)]On the Burgh's thing from what i've read it seems most were either wooden pallisades/forts or like the old hill forts (series of earth banks and ditches and then the actual fortification at the top)dunno if this helps any...
Hmm, so the fort is looking like something from the movie Braveheart when he comes into town avenging his killed wife, have I understood you correctly?

[Aethelred]

i've never seen braveheart i'll try and find some images.

[Aethelred]

closest i could find is this (scroll down to the section on Maiden Castle and the diagram of old sarum:

Link (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/awfrome/prehistoricfrome.html)


(obviously replace the curtain walls with pallisade or something)


the other thing you could do for this would be something like a cross between the MTW Fort and VI's forified village.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Aethelred @ July 24 2004,03:09)]closest i could find is this (scroll down to the section on Maiden Castle and the diagram of old sarum. The other thing you could do for this would be something like a cross between the MTW Fort and VI's forified village.
Neat, looks like a hybrid between a viking ring-burgh and a Finnic/ Baltic hill-fort. We could shurely use this structure in the mod Aethelred, great work I actually did a test-map with pretty much theese structures that was pretty neat. A water filled trench followed by a high ring-mound and a hill in the centre with fortifications and littered with stakes that stick out of the ground in an angle to slow down enemy movement.

Another structure that I feel is missing are the kind of watch towers you´ll find in STW. There you can only build them in a province like in MTW but I´d shurely like to have them in some of our battle-maps, especially in England.

[Norseman]

@VikingHorde

Others has suggested many interesting units for other factions, but for now lets just start with the viking units to get started with the file.

Here follows a list with more info, so that you can make the units. Any suggestions or opinions, or any additional units for that matter, is very welcome as I'm no expert on this. Any balance issues we will deal with later.

#: Number of men
Cha: Charge
Att: Attack
Def: Defend
Arm: Armour
Att.Cav: Attack cavalry
Def.Cav: Defend against cavalry
Hon: Morale
Rnk: Ranks bonus
Arm.Prc: Armour piercing

Freemen/Carls (Bondis)
Description: The free farmers, fishermen and artisans in a viking community, the rank and file fighters in a Jarl's or local chieftain's wartime army.
Appearance: Much like basic spearmen, peasant BIF with spear but with circular viking shield, poorly formed formation.
Stats: #:80 Cha:5 Att:2 Def:0 Arm:1 Att.Cav:1 Def.Cav:4 Hon:2 Rnk:0 Arm.Prc:NO
Comments: They will be armed with spears but without the rank bonus, as vikings fought man on man and not as a unit.

Norse Freemen/Norse Carls
Description: The free farmers, fishermen and artisans in a viking community, the rank and file fighters in a Jarl's or local chieftain's wartime army. The West Coast of Norway is slightly different from other Viking regions. They were hardier, much less fertile and more warlike. Many of the smaller raiding forces came from these regions.
Appearance: Like vikings of the original MTWv1.0; peasant BIF with circular viking shield and axe, poorly formed formation.
Stats: #:60 Cha:3 Att:3 Def:0 Arm:1 Att.Cav:0 Def.Cav:0 Hon:4 Rnk:0 Arm.Prc:YES
Comments: The normal Freemen unit won't be trainable on the West coast of Norway. Instead you will get Norse Freemen.

Housecarls
Description: These men are full time warriors, handpicked among the freemen and serves in a Jarl's or Chieftain's hird.
Appearance: Like viking carls of the original MTW:VI v2.0; VIKING BIF with circular viking shield and axe.
Stats: #:60 Cha:4 Att:3 Def:2 Arm:2 Att.Cav:0 Def.Cav:0 Hon:4 Rnk:0 Arm.Prc:YES
Comments:

Berserks
Description: https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Appearance: Like berserks of the original MTW:VI v2.0??
Stats: Like berserks of the original MTW:VI v2.0??
Comments:

Hirdmen
Description: The bodyguard unit of the King and his sons. They are warriors known for their bravery, strength, skill and fierceness in battle. A rich king can have a large hird(train more units).
Appearance: Like viking Housecarls of the original MTW:VI v2.0; HOUSECARL BIF with circular viking shield and twohanded axe.
Stats: #:40 Cha:4 Att:4 Def:3 Arm:2 Att.Cav:0 Def.Cav:0 Hon:6 Rnk:0 Arm.Prc:YES
Comments: Would this be historical? Early on, wouldn't the hirdmen look more like the housecarls but maybe with a sword and better stats?? https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Jomsvikings
Description: Warriors of Jomsborg.
Appearance: Like viking carls of the original MTW:VI v2.0; VIKING BIF with circular viking shield and axe.
Stats: #:60 Cha:4 Att:4 Def:2 Arm:2 Att.Cav:0 Def.Cav:0 Hon:6 Rnk:0 Arm.Prc:YES
Comments: These will only be available in one region, by building Jomsborg(castle of the Jomsvikings) which will be a unique building. They will be something in between Hirdmen and Housecarls stats-wise. Danish unit only??

More tomorrow.

[VikingHorde]

It looks fine for now. I will edit the files and put in the new units.

https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Norseman]

@PseR, this is a reply to the last mail I received from you.

I've answered your previous e-mail twice, but only got error message something like message sent - server did not respond
I asumed you mail-server was down, but apparantly this is not so.

Odd, because my mailsystem seems to have been working well for all others.

I just sent an empty reply. Did you get it? i got no error message this time.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Norseman @ July 29 2004,20:56)]I've answered your previous e-mail twice, but only got error message something like message sent - server did not respond. I asumed you mail-server was down, but apparantly this is not so. Odd, because my mailsystem seems to have been working well for all others. I just sent an empty reply. Did you get it? i got no error message this time.
Yup, I got the empty mess. Sent you a new mail last night. Apparantly my internet provider has had some server probs so there´s nothing wrong with yours. Sorry to hear that you got sick. I hope you get better soon. Cheers m8

[PseRamesses]

Hi ya guys How are you enjoying the summer?

Lately I´ve been corresponding with NagatsukiShumi regarding his mod ArthurTW. Based in Britain around 500Ad I felt that a collaboration between us and him were in order since we can share intel with eachother.
So any of you guys, Aethelred or Trashaholic as the english men you are, would like to assist him with research etc please do so and PM him through the board.
Nag is planning on doing the bulk of his mod before the 25th of august and might want to chip in on FotN after that. Before that we can exchange files such as factions, kings-lists, heroes, names, provinces, possible units, flags etc.

Take care everyone

[thrashaholic]

Here are some welsh forenames...

Male Names:

AERON - Either derived from Welsh aeron meaning berry or else from the name the river in Wales.
ALED - Means offspring in Welsh.
ALUN - Welsh form of ALAN. This name appears in the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth.
ANDRAS - Welsh form of ANDREW
ARVEL - Means wept over in Welsh.
AWSTIN - Welsh form of AUSTIN
BEDWYR - Welsh form of BEDIVERE
BERWYN - Means white head from the Welsh elements barr head and wyn white.
BEVAN - From a Welsh surname which was derived from ap Evan meaning son of EVAN.
BRAITH - Means speckled in Welsh.
BRAN - Means raven in Welsh. In Welsh legend Bran the Blessed (called also Bendigeid Vran) was the son of the god Llyr. Later Welsh legends describe him as a king of Britain who was killed attacking Ireland.
BRYN - Means hill, mound in Welsh.
BRYNMOR - From a Welsh place name meaning great hill.
CADELL - From Welsh cad battle and a diminutive suffix.
CADFAEL - Means battle prince from Welsh cad battle and mael prince.
CADFAN - Means battle peak from Welsh cad battle and ban peak. Saint Cadfan, from Brittany, was a 6th-century missionary to Wales.
CADOC - Derived from Welsh cad battle. This was the name of a 6th-century Welsh saint who was martyred by the Saxons.
CADWALADER - Means leader of the battle from Welsh cad battle and gwaladr leader. This was the name of a Welsh saint of the 7th-century.
CADWGAWN - Means glory in battle from Welsh cad battle and gwogawn glory, honour. In the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth, this name is briefly mentioned as the son of Iddon.
CAERWYN - Derived from the Welsh elements caer fortress and gwyn white, fair.
CARADOG - Derived from Welsh cariadus beloved. This was the name of a 1st-century British chieftain who rebelled against Roman rule.
CARWYN - Means blessed love from Welsh caru love and gwyn white, fair, blessed.
CELYN - Means holly in Welsh.
CLEDWYN - Derived from the Welsh element caled rough combined with gwyn white, fair, blessed.
COLWYN - From the name of a river in northern Wales.
CULHWCH - Means hiding place of the pig in Welsh. In Welsh legend he was the lover of Olwen the daughter of the giant Yspaddaden. Before the giant would allow Culhwch to marry his daughter, he insisted that Culhwch complete a series of extremely difficult tasks. Culhwch managed to complete them, and he returned to marry Olwen and kill the giant. This tale appears in the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth.
CYSTENIAN - Welsh form of CONSTANTINE
DAFYDD - Welsh form of DAVID. This name was borne by Dafydd ap Gwilym, a 14th-century Welsh poet.
DAI - Derived from Old Celtic dei meaning to shine.
DELWYN - Means pretty and white from the Welsh element del pretty combined with gwyn fair, white, blessed.
DEWI - Old Welsh form of DAVID. Saint Dewi, the patron saint of Wales, was a 6th-century Welsh bishop.
DILWYN - Means genuine and white from the Welsh element dilys genuine combined with gwyn white, fair, blessed.
DYLAN - Means sea in Welsh. In Welsh mythology he was a god of the sea, the son Aranrhod. He was accidentally slain by his uncle Govannon.
EINION - Means anvil in Welsh.
ELISUD - Derived from Welsh elus meaning kind.
EMYR - Means king in Welsh.
GAWAIN - Possibly from the Welsh name Gwalchgwyn which meant white hawk. Sir Gawain was a knight of the Round Table in Arthurian legends. The 14th-century romantic poem 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight' tells how Gawain beheaded the Green Knight in single combat.
GERAINT - Meaning unknown, possibly a Welsh form of GERONTIUS. In Arthurian legend he was one of the knights of the Round Table. After he wrongly accused his wife Enid of infidelity she regained his love by being submissive.
GETHIN - Means dark-skinned, swarthy in Welsh.
GLYNDWR - From a Welsh surname which was originally derived from a place name meaning valley water. This name is often given in honour of Owain Glyndwr, a Welsh patriot who led a revolt against England.
GORONWY - Meaning unknown. In the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth, he was the lover of Blodeuwedd. He attempted to murder her husband Lleu Llaw Gyffes but was himself killed.
GRIGOR - Welsh form of GREGORY
GRUFFYDD - From Old Welsh Grippiud. The second element of the name derives from Welsh iud lord, prince but the first element is unknown. Gruffydd ap Llywelyn was a Welsh ruler who fought against England in the 11th century but was eventually defeated.
GWYN - Means white, fair, blessed in Welsh.
GWYNEDD - From the name of a region in Wales, which probably derives from Welsh gwyn white, fair, blessed.
GWYNFOR - Derived from the Welsh element gwyn white, fair, blessed combined with mawr great, large.
HEDDWYN - Derived from the Welsh elements hedd peace and gwyn white, fair, blessed.
HEFIN - Means summer in Welsh.
HEILYN - Means winebearer in Welsh.
HYWEL - Means eminent in Welsh. This was the name of a 10th-century king of Wales.
IAGO - Welsh and Spanish form of JACOB. This is the name of the villain in Shakespeare's tragedy 'Othello'.
IDRIS - Means ardent lord from Welsh iud lord, prince combined with ris ardent, enthusiastic, impulsive.
IDWAL - Means lord of the wall, derived from Welsh iud lord, prince combined with gwal wall, rampart.
IESTYN - Welsh form of JUSTIN
IEUAN - Old Welsh form of JOHN
ILLTYD - Means multitude of land from Welsh il multitude and tud land, people. This was the name of a 6th-century Welsh saint who founded the abbey of Llanilltud in Glamorgan.
IORWERTH - Means handsome lord from Welsh ior lord and berth handsome. This name is used in the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth, where it belongs to a son of Maredudd. This name is sometimes used as a Welsh form of EDWARD.
ISLWYN - From the name of a mountain in Wales which means below the grove from Welsh is below and llwyn grove.
ITHEL - Means generous lord from the Welsh elements iud lord, prince and hael generous.
LLEW - Means lion in Welsh.
LLYWELYN - Welsh form of the Old Celtic name Lugubelenus, a combination of the names of the gods Lug (see LUGH) and BELENUS. This was the name of a 13th-century Welsh prince who fought against England.
MABON - Derived from Welsh mab meaning son. This was the name of an Old Celtic god.
MADOC - Possibly means fortunate in Welsh.
MAREDUDD - Welsh form of MEREDITH
MEIRION - Welsh form of MARIANUS
MERFYN - Older Welsh form of MERVYN, which possibly meant marrow famous. This was the name of a Welsh king of the 9th century.
MIHANGEL - Contraction of MICHAEL and archangel, representative of the archangel Michael.
MORGAN - From the Old Welsh masculine name Morcant, which was possibly derived from Welsh mor sea and cant circle. As a (possibly unrelated) feminine name it was used by Geoffrey of Monmouth for the Arthurian sorceress Morgan le Fay.
NEIFION - Welsh form of NEPTUNE
NEIRIN - Welsh name, which possibly means noble.
OWAIN - There are several theories on the origins of this name: it could be a Welsh form of EUGENE; it could be derived from either of the Welsh elements oen lamb or eoghunn youth; or it could be related to Esos, the name of a Celtic god. In Arthurian legend Owain, also called Yvain, was one of the knights of the Round Table, the son of King Urien and the slayer of the knight of the fountain.
PADRIG - Welsh and Breton form of PATRICK
PEDR - Welsh form of PETER
PRYCE - From a Welsh surname which was derived from ap Rhys meaning son of RHYS.
PRYDERI - Means care in Welsh. In the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth, he is a son of Pwyll and Rhiannon.
RHODRI - Derived from the Welsh elements rhod wheel and rhi king. This name was borne by a 9th-century Welsh king.
RHYDDERCH - Means reddish brown in Welsh.
RHYS - Means enthusiasm in Welsh. Several Welsh rulers have borne this name.
TALFRYN - From a Welsh place name meaning high hill, derived from Welsh tal high and bryn hill.
TALIESIN - Means shining brow, derived from Welsh tal brow and iesin shining. In Welsh mythology Taliesin was a wizard and bard who acquired the gift of prophecy.
TRAHAEARN - Means very much like iron, derived from Welsh tra very, over and haearn iron
TREFOR - From a surname which was originally from a place name meaning big village from Welsh tref village and mawr large.
TRYSTAN - From the Celtic name Drystan, which was probably derived from drest meaning riot or tumult. It is sometimes associated with Latin tristus sad, but this connection is doubtful. In Celtic legend Tristan was sent to Ireland in order to fetch Isolde, who was to be the bride of King Mark of Cornwall. Instead, Tristan and Isolde end up falling in love.
URIEN - Means privileged birth from Celtic orbo privileged and gen birth.
WYN - Derived from Welsh gwyn meaning blessed, white, fair.

Female Names:

AERON - Either derived from Welsh aeron meaning berry or else from the name the river in Wales.
AERONWEN - Combination of AERON (1) and the suffix gwen meaning white, fair, blessed.
AERONWY - Combination of AERON (1) and the suffix wy meaning river.
ANGHARAD - Means more love in Welsh. In the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth, Angharad Golden-hand is the lover of Peredur.
ANWEN - Means very beautiful in Welsh.
ARANRHOD - Possibly means huge wheel or round wheel in Welsh. In Welsh myth Aranrhod was the mother of the twin brothers Dylan and Lleu Llaw Gyffes. In earlier myths she was a goddess of the moon.
BLODEUWEDD - Means face of flowers in Welsh. In the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth, she is the wife of Lleu Llaw Gyffes changed into an owl for her infidelity.
BLODEUYN - Means flower in Welsh.
BLODWEN - Means white flowers from Welsh blawd flowers combined with gwen white, fair, blessed.
BRAITH - Means speckled in Welsh.
BRANWEN - Means beautiful raven from Welsh bran raven and gwen fair, white, blessed. In the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth, she is the sister of the British king Bran and the wife of the Irish king Matholwch.
BRONWYN - Derived from the Welsh elements bron breast and gwen white, fair, blessed.
BRYN - Means hill, mound in Welsh.
CARON - Derived from Welsh caru meaning to love.
CEINWEN - Derived from the Welsh elements cain lovely and gwen white, fair, blessed.
CERRIDWYN - Means blessed poetry from Welsh cerdd poetry and gwen white, fair, blessed. This is the name of a Celtic goddess of poetry.
DELWYN - Means pretty and white from the Welsh element del pretty combined with gwyn fair, white, blessed.
DELYTH - From an elaboration of the Welsh element del pretty.
DERYN - Possibly from Welsh aderyn meaning bird.
DILWEN - Feminine form of DILWYN
DILYS - Means genuine in Welsh.
EILUNED - Derived from Welsh eilun image, idol.
EILWEN - Perhaps means white brow from Welsh ael brow and gwen white, fair, blessed.
EIRA - Means snow in Welsh.
EIRIAN - Means bright, beautiful in Welsh.
EIRLYS - Means snowdrop in Welsh.
EIRWEN - Means white snow from the Welsh elements eira snow and gwen white, blessed.
ELAIN - Means fawn in Welsh.
ELERI - Meaning unknown. In Welsh legend she was the daughter of the chieftain Brychan.
ELUNED - In the Mabinogion, a collection of tales from Welsh myth, she is a servant of the Lady of the Fountain who rescues the knight Owain.
ENID - Derived from Welsh enaid meaning soul or life. She was the wife of Geraint in Arthurian legend.
GLENYS - Elaboration of the Welsh word glan meaning pure or holy.
GWAWR - Means dawn in Welsh.
GWEN - From Welsh gwen, the feminine form of gwyn meaning white, fair, blessed.
GWENDA - Derived from the Welsh elements gwen white, fair, blessed and da good.
GWENDOLYN - Means white ring, derived from the Welsh elements gwen white, fair, blessed and dolen ring.
GWENFREWI - Derived from the Welsh elements gwen white, fair, blessed and frewi reconciliation, peace. This was the name of a 7th-century Welsh saint and martyr.
GWENLLIAN - Derived from the Welsh elements gwen white, fair, blessed and llian flaxen. This was a Welsh royal name.
GWYNETH - Possibly derived from Welsh gwenith meaning wheat or from the name of a region in Wales, which probably derives from Welsh gwyn white, fair, blessed.
GWYNEIRA - Means white snow from the Welsh element gwyn white, fair, blessed combined with eira snow.
HEFINA - Feminine form of HEFIN
HELEDD - Meaning unknown. This was the name of a semi-legendary 7th-century Welsh princess.
HEULWEN - Means sunshine in Welsh.
LLEWELLA - Feminine form of LLYWELYN
MAIRWEN - Welsh form of MARY combined with the Welsh gwen meaning white, fair, blessed.
MARI - Welsh, Finnish and Breton form of MARY, as well as a Hungarian pet form of MARY
MEINIR - Means slender and tall from Welsh main slender and hir tall, long.
MEINWEN - Means slender and white from Welsh main slender and gwen white, fair, blessed.
MEIRIONA - Feminine form of MEIRION
MORGAN - From the Old Welsh masculine name Morcant, which was possibly derived from Welsh mor sea and cant circle. As a (possibly unrelated) feminine name it was used by Geoffrey of Monmouth for the Arthurian sorceress Morgan le Fay.
MYFANWY - Means my woman from the Welsh prefix my my combined with banw woman.
NERYS - Perhaps an elaboration of Welsh ner lord, with the intended meaning of lady.
OLWEN - Means white footprint from Welsh ol footprint, track and gwen white, fair, blessed. In Welsh legend Olwen was a beautiful maiden, the lover of Culhwch and the daughter of the giant Yspaddaden. Her father insisted that Culhwch complete several seemingly impossible tasks before he would allow them to marry, and Culhwch was successful with all of them.
RHIANNON - Derived from Old Celtic Rigantona meaning great queen. In Welsh mythology Rhiannon was the goddess of fertility and the moon. This name is also borne by a princess in Welsh legends, the wife of Pwyll.
RHONWEN - Means either fair spear or fair hair in Welsh. The first element is either rhon spear or rhawn (coarse) hair, and the second element is gwen fair, white, blessed.
SEREN - Means star in Welsh.
TEGWEN - Derived from the Welsh elements teg fair and gwen blessed.
WYNNE - Femenine form of WYN

For surnames just put ap and then a space in front of all the male forenames. This means son of .....

[thrashaholic]

If you want I could do a big name list like this for the Scots and the Irish. I could also do a few names for Cornish, Manx, Breton, Basque and Freisian.

[thrashaholic]

Norseman, I very much liked you idea on the temporary forum of using the resources thing to convey culture, I think it could work very effectively. If instead of just displaying the resources of a region you could change it to something like "features" and include all sorts of information that could effect what could be built and where. The features could include characteristics of a province like the population's culture (Viking, Eastern, Celtic etc.), which could then act as a sort of "homelands" feature where certain cultrure specific buildings and units can't be built in 'foreign' provinces because their culture is different. This could also be extended to display features like the terrain of a province (mountainous, hilly, flat, wooded etc.), which could place further restrictions on certain buildings like farming (e.g. mountainous areas being hard to farm so only a certain level of farm building can be placed there). And then of course it would display the natural resources of the province.

I think this idea is very innovative, has plently of potential and should definitely be explored.

[Norseman]

QUOTE
I think this idea is very innovative, has plently of potential and should definitely be explored.

THX thrashaholic, but it's not originally my idea. Don't remember who came up with it first, but anyway I think it will suit our mod well.

@CREW
I won't be online for the next 5-7 days or so.

Does anybody know if it is possible to move the posts made on the temporary forum to this thread? There was a lot of good info in them, and we got started on a faction discussion.
~:wave:

[PseRamesses]

Does anybody know if it is possible to move the posts made on the temporary forum to this thread? There was a lot of good info in them, and we got started on a faction discussion.

I´m already on it Norse. Sent TosaInu this mess this morning;


Greetings TosaInu-San,

First of all I´d like to thank you mods for the work you´ve been doing due to the problems with crashed servers, temp forum, new forum etc it´s greatly appreciated.
Secondly we, the FotN-crew, are missing a whole heap of important posts between the 24th of July up until the 4th of August. They contained important information for the mod and I do hope they can be retrived.
If the missing posts are gone let me know asap so I can inform the crew. If they can be retrived please send them to me at pse@brevet.se if they can´t be incorporated in the FotN-mod´s thread in the new forum there.

Thanks in advance,

PseR

[Admin]

Posted: Aug. 02 2004,17:31
PseRamesses


If you want I could do a big name list like this for the Scots and the Irish. I could also do a few names for Cornish, Manx, Breton, Basque and Freisian.Trashaholic, superb work - as usual! ;) If you want to please do names, kings, heroes etc etc for all english factions. Start with the ones in VI then we´ll add one more SE faction and one Irish (I hope). What SE-faction do yo suggest we add? Personally I like East Anglia and Athelred is more drawn to Essex and Sussex. Do you also have a suggestion for the 2nd Irish faction?
BTW, did you notice that I´ve begun a joint-venture with NagatsukiShumi and his Arthur-mod. We agreed upon than some time could be saved, hopefully, if we shared some work. I told him about yours and Aethelreds interest in English history so if you feel like assisting him it´s all right by me. Anyway, all info that we produce here that he can use and vice versa will be shared.

[Admin]

Posted: Aug. 02 2004,18:15
Norseman


If you want I could do a big name list like this for the Scots and the Irish. I could also do a few names for Cornish, Manx, Breton, Basque and Freisian.Great work thrashaholic! Just one thing, can you keep this info on your HD for some time? I'm leaving on a mountain hike later this week, and we don't know for sure what will happen with these forums in the close future. I sure hope the old thread will be dug up again.

Maybe it is time we have a more serious discussion on what factions to add, and come to a conclusion? This will after all be important to know when starting work on units and tech-tree.

I think we should have as many as possible (30 or 31). Myself I only have sufficiant knowledge on the norse vikings so I'm hoping for some input, especially from thrashaholic & Athelred on England/Ireland and Wilpurri&Trax on Eastern Europe.

I suggest 3-4 factions in Norway when starting around 800AD:
1)One faction in Vestfold , that historically united Norway around 870
2)Possibly one faction in Vingulmark. Faction 1) had many battles with them early on.
3)Possibly one faction in Firda. Faction 1) had a large and decisive battle with them. Rollo, the first leader of the Normans, is from this area (according to Snorri) although most of the settlers were Danish.
4)Possibly one faction in Rogaland. Faction 1) fought them in the battle of Hafsfjord, the last decisive battle when uniting Norway.

Furthermore I think we should at least have one more irish faction, maybe even two, to reflect the fact that the Irish fought amongst themselves just as much as the vikings. In fact, Irish factions often allied themselves with vikings for mutual benefit. I don't know which Irish faction(s) to choose though.

I also think we should only have one Danish faction. Around 800, Denmark was more or less a united kingdom. This makes them powerfull early on, which is historically correct(Danelaw...). From the south a Frankish faction will be threatening and hopefully balance things a bit(also very historical), especially as the Danes can't finish them off completely even if they try(the unattackable homeland feature).

In Sweden there will be two obvious ones, and 1-2 more(?):
1)The Sveas in Uppsala.
2)The Götas(spelling?). According to Snorri they lived along the Swedish SE coast, and rivaled the Sveas for the power.
3)Possibly Gotland. Gotland was a rich and important trading community.
4)Any suggestions?

[Admin]

Posted: Aug. 02 2004,19:00
thrashaholic

Right here's an Irish names list...
Male Names:
ABBÁN - Means "little abbot", derived from Irish abb "abbot" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of a 6th-century Irish saint, the son of king Cormac of Leinster.
AILBHE - Possibly derived from the old Gaelic root albhus meaning "white". In Irish legend she was a warrior of the Fianna.
AILILL - Means "elf" in Irish Gaelic. This name occurs frequently in Irish legend, borne for example by the husband of queen Méabh.
AILÍN - Irish cognate of ALAN
AINDRÉAS - Irish form of ANDREW
ALAOIS - Irish of ALOYSIUS
AMHLAOIBH - Irish form of OLAF
AODH - From the old Irish name Aed, which meant "fire". This was the name of several Irish kings.
AONGHUS - Possibly meaning "one strength" derived from Irish óen "one" and gus "force, strength, energy". Aonghus (sometimes surnamed Mac Og meaning "young son") was the Irish god of love and youth. The name was also borne by an 8th-century Pictish king and several Irish kings.
ARDGHAL - Means "high valour", derived from the Irish elements ard "high" and gal "valour".
BEARACH - Derived from Gaelic biorach meaning "sharp". This was the name of a 6th-century Irish saint.
BRAEDEN - From the Irish surname Ó Bradáin, which means "descendent of Bradan". The name Bradan derives from a Gaelic word meaning "salmon".
BRAN - Means "raven" in Irish. In Irish legend Bran was a mariner who was involved in several adventures.
BREANDÁN - Irish Gaelic form of BRENDAN. From Brendanus, the Latinized form of the Irish name Bréanainn which was derived from a Welsh word meaning "prince". Saint Brendan was a 6th-century Irish abbot. According to legend he and 17 other monks crossed the Atlantic and reached North America.
BRENNAN - From the Irish surname Ó Braonáin which means "descendent of Braonán". Braonán is a first name meaning "sorrow" (Irish braon "tear drop" and a diminutive suffix).
BRIAN - The meaning of this name is not known for certain but it is possibly related to the Old Celtic element bre meaning "hill", or by extension "high, noble". Brian Boru was an Irish king who thwarted Viking attempts to conquer Ireland in the 11th century. He was victorious in the Battle of Clontarf, but he himself was slain.
BRODY - From a surname which was originally derived from a place name meaning "ditch" in Gaelic.
BROGAN - Derived from Gaelic bróg "shoe" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of several Irish saints, including Saint Patrick's scribe.
CAIRBRE - Means "charioteer" in Gaelic.
CALBHACH - Means "bald" in Irish Gaelic.
CAOIMHÍN - Original Irish form of KEVIN
CAOLAN - From Gaelic caol "slender" combined with the diminutive suffix an.
CAOMH - Means "handsome" in Gaelic.
CAREY - From the Irish surname Ó Ciardha, which means "descendent of Ciardha". The name Ciardha means "dark" in Gaelic.
CATHAIR - Means "battle man" from Gaelic cath "battle" and vir "man".
CATHAL - Derived from the Gaelic elements cath "battle" and val "rule". This was the name of a 7th-century Irish saint.
CATHÁN - Derived from Gaelic cath "battle" combined with a diminutive suffix.
CEALLACH - Possibly derived either from Gaelic ceallach meaning "war, strife" or from a Gaelic word meaning "bright-headed".
CEARBHALL - Probably from Gaelic cearbh "hacking with a weapon".
CIAN - Means "ancient" in Gaelic. This was the name of the mythical ancestor of the Cianachta in Irish legend. Cian was also the name of a son-in-law of Brian Boru.
CIARAN - Derived from Irish ciar meaning "black" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of two Irish saints: Saint Ciaran the Elder, the patron of the Kingdom of Munster, and Saint Ciaran of Clonmacnoise, the founder of a monastery in the 6th century.
CILLIAN - Either from Gaelic ceallach meaning "war, strife" or else from Gaelic ceall "church" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of a 7th-century Irish saint who evangelized Franconia.
CINNEIDIGH - Means "armoured head" or "misshapen head".
COMHGHALL - Means "joint pledge" from Irish comh "together" and gall "pledge".
COMHGHÁN - Means "born together" from Irish comh "together" and gan "born".
CONALL - Means "strong wolf" in Gaelic. This is the name of several characters in Irish legend including the hero Conall Cernach ("Conall of the victories"), a member of the Red Branch of Ulster, who avenged Cuchulainn's death by killing Lugaid.
CONAN - Means "little wolf" or "little hound" from Gaelic cú "wolf, hound" combined with a diminutive suffix. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was the author who wrote the Sherlock Holmes mystery stories.
CONCHOBHAR - From the Gaelic name Conchobhar which means "dog lover" or "wolf lover". This was the name of an early king of Ulster. Irish legends tell of his tragic desire for Deirdre.
CONN - Means "chief" in Irish Gaelic.
CORMAC - Means "son of defilement" from Gaelic corb "defilement" and mac "son". This was the name of a 3rd-century king of Ireland.
CUÁN - Means "little wolf" or "little hound" from the Irish element cú "wolf, hound" combined with a diminutive suffix.
DÁIRE - Means "fruitful, fertile" in Irish Gaelic.
DARA - Means "oak tree" in Irish Gaelic.
DESMOND - From a surname which was derived from Gaelic Deas-Mhumhan meaning "from south Munster". Munster is a province in Ireland which was once an ancient Irish kingdom.
DEVIN - Irish surname derived from either of the Irish surnames Ó Damháin (which means "descendent of Damhán") or Ó Dubháin (which means "descendent of Dubhán"). The given name Damhán means "fawn"; the given name Dubhán means "little black one".
DIARMUID - Perhaps means either "freeman" or "without envy" in Irish. This was the name of a hero in Irish legend, and it was also the name of several ancient Irish kings.
DOMHNALL - Gaelic form of DONALD
DONAGH - Irish form of Donnchadh
DONNCHADH - Original form of DUNCAN
DONOVAN - From the Irish surname Ó Donnabhain, which means "descendent of Donndubhán". The first name Donndubhán is composed of the Gaelic element donn "brown" combined with dubh "dark" and a diminutive suffix.
DRISCOLL - From the Irish surname Ó Eidirsceoil, which means "descendent of Eirdirsceol". The personal name Eirdirsceol may mean "messenger" in Gaelic.
DUBHGHALL - Original Gaelic form of DOUGAL
DUBHGHLAS - Original Gaelic form of DOUGLAS
EACHANN - Means "brown horse" from Gaelic each "horse" and donn "brown".
ÉIBHEAR - Meaning unknown. According to Irish legend this name belonged to two of the sons of Míl, Éibhear Dunn and Éibhear Finn, the first of the Gaels to conquer Ireland.
ÉIMHÍN - Possibly means "swift, prompt" in Irish Gaelic.
EOGHAN - Possibly means "born from the yew tree" in Old Celtic. It is sometimes used as a Gaelic form of EUGENE.
EOIN - Gaelic form of JOHN
ERSKINE - From a surname which was originally derived from a Scottish place name meaning "projecting height" in Gaelic. A famous bearer of the name was the Irish novelist Erskine Childers.
FACHTNA - Perhaps means "hostile" in Irish Gaelic. He was the husband of Neasa in Irish legend. Some versions of the legends also have him as the father of Conchobhar.
FAOLÁN - Means "little wolf", derived from Gaelic faol "wolf" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of an Irish saint who did missionary work in Scotland.
FEARCHAR - Means "dear man" from Gaelic fear "man" and char "dear".
FEARDORCHA - Means "dark man" from Gaelic fear "man" and dorcha "dark".
FEARGHAL - Means "man of valour", derived from the Gaelic elements fear "man" and gal "valour". This was the name of an 8th-century king of Ireland.
FEARGHAS - Means "man of vigour", derived from the Gaelic elements fear "man" and gus "vigour". This was the name of several characters in Irish legend including the Ulster hero Fearghas mac Róich.
FECHÍN - Means "little raven" from Irish fiach "raven" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of an Irish saint of the 7th century who died of the yellow plague.
FEIDHLIM - Possibly means "beauty" or "ever good" in Irish Gaelic. This was the name of three early kings of Munster.
FIACHRA - Derived from Gaelic fiach meaning "raven". In Irish legend Fiachra was one of the four children of Lir transformed into swans for a period of 900 years. This is also the name of the patron saint of gardeners, a 7th-century Irish abbot who settled in France.
FINNIAN - Derived from Old Irish finn "white" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of several Irish saints.
FIONN - Means "fair" or "white" in Gaelic. Fionn mac Cumhail was a legendary Irish hero who became all-wise by eating an enchanted salmon. He fought against the giant Fomors with his son Oisin and grandson Oscar.
FIONNBHARR - Means "fair hair", derived from Gaelic fionn "white, fair" and barr "head". Saint Fionnbharr of Cork was a 6th-century bishop who supposedly performed miraculous cures. The Barry Islands off Wales were named for him.
FIONNLAGH - Means "white warrior" from Gaelic fionn "white, fair" and laogh "warrior".
FIONNTÁN - Possibly means either "white fire" or "white bull" in Gaelic. This was the name of many Irish saints.
FLAITHRÍ - Means "king of princes" from Gaelic flaith "prince" and rí "king".
FLANN - Means "red" in Irish Gaelic. This was the name of a 9th-century king of Tara in Ireland.
GALLCHOBHAIR - Means "foreign help" in Irish Gaelic.
GILROY - From an Irish surname, either Mac Giolla Ruaidh, which means "son of the red-haired servant", or Mac Giolla Rí, which means "son of the king's servant".
GOBÁN - Either means "little smith" from Irish gobha "smith" combined with a diminutive suffix, or else is derived from the name of the Irish god GOIBNIU (which is also a derivative of gobha).
GRÁDAIGH - Means "noble" in Gaelic.
IARFHLAITH - Composed of the Irish elements ior, of unknown meaning, and flaith "lord". Saint Iarfhlaith was a 6th-century bishop from Galway, Ireland.
LACHTNA - Means "milk-coloured" in Irish Gaelic. According to legend this was the name of an ancestor of the Irish king Brian Boru.
LOMMÁN - Means "little bare one", derived from Irish Gaelic lomm "bare" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of a 5th-century saint, a nephew of Saint Patrick.
LORCCÁN - Means "little fierce one", derived from Irish Gaelic lorcc "fierce" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of a 12th-century archbishop of Dublin.
LUGHAIDH - Derived from the name of the Irish god LUGH. This was the name of several characters in Irish legend, including the king Lughaidh mac Con.
MAELEACHLAINN - Means "devotee of Saint Seachnall", derived from Irish mael "devotee" combined with Seachlainn, a variant of Seachnall the Irish form of SECUNDINUS.
MAINCHÍN - Means "little monk", derived from Irish manach "monk" combined with a diminutive suffix.
MATHÚIN - Shortened form of Mathghamhain, which means "bear" in Irish Gaelic. Mathghamhain was the name of a brother of the Irish king Brian Boru.
MEALLÁN - Possibly means "lightning" in Irish Gaelic.
MÍCHEÁL - Irish form of MICHAEL
MUIREADHACH - Possibly means "mariner" or "lord" in Gaelic.
MURCHADH - Means "sea warrior" in Gaelic.
NAOISE - Meaning unknown, presumably of Gaelic origin. In Irish legend he was the young man who eloped with Deirdre, the beloved of Conchobhar the king of Ulster. Conchobhar eventually succeeded in having Naoise murdered, which caused Deirdre to die of grief.
NAOMHÁN - Means "little holy one", derived from Irish naomh "holy" combined with a diminutive suffix.
NIALL - Possibly meaning "champion" or "cloud". This was the name of a semi-legendary 4th-century Irish king.
NINIAN - Meaning unknown, perhaps a Latinized form of the Welsh name Nynnyaw. This was the name of a 5th-century British saint who was apparently responsible for many miracles and cures.
NUALLAN - means "champion" or "chariot fighter".
ODHRÁN - Means "little pale green one", derived from Irish odhra "pale green, sallow" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of a saint who travelled with Saint Columba through Scotland.
OISÍN - Means "little deer", derived from Irish os "deer" combined with a diminutive suffix. In Irish legend Oisin was a warrior hero and a poet, the son of Fionn mac Cumhail.
OSCAR - Means "deer lover", derived from Gaelic os "deer" combined cara "lover". In Irish legend Oscar was the son of the poet Oisin and the grandson of the hero Fionn mac Cumhail. Famous bearers of this name include a 19th-century king of Sweden and the Irish writer and humourist Oscar Wilde. The name Oscar could also represent a revival of an Old English name (meaning "god spear" from Old English os "god" and gar "spear").
PÁDRAIG - From the Roman name Patricius, which meant "nobleman" in Latin. A 5th-century saint, the patron saint of Ireland, adopted this name (his birth name was Sucat). During his youth he was captured by Irish raiders and enslaved, but after six years of servitude he escaped to his home in Britain. Eventually he became a bishop and went back to Ireland as a missionary, where he succeeded in Christianizing the entire country.
RÓNÁN - Means "little seal", derived from Irish rón "seal" combined with a diminutive suffix.
RUAIDHRÍ - Means "red king" from Irish ruadh "red" combined with rí "king". This was the name of the last high king of Ireland, reigning in the 12th century.
RUARC - Possibly means "squall, rainstorm" in Irish.
SEANÁN - Means "little wise person", derived from Irish sean "wise, old" combined with a diminutive suffix. Saint Seanán was a 6th-century monk from Munster, Ireland.
SUIBHNE - Means "well-going" in Gaelic. This was the name of a 7th-century High King of Ireland.
TADHG - Means "poet" in Irish. This was the name of an 11th-century king of Connacht.
TEAGAN - Means "little poet", derived from Gaelic tadhg "poet" and a diminutive suffix.
TIGHEARNACH - Derived from Irish Gaelic tigern meaning "lord". This was the name of an Irish saint of the 6th century. In his youth he was kidnapped by Welsh pirates and brought to Wales, but he escaped to Scotland. Eventually he returned to Ireland where he was a bishop of Clogher.
TOIRDHEALBHACH - Means "instigator", derived from Gaelic toirdhealbh "prompting".
TORIN - Means "chief" in Irish Gaelic.
TUATHAL - Means "ruler of the people" in Irish Gaelic.
UAITHNE - Means "green" in Irish Gaelic.
Female Names:
AILBHE - Possibly derived from the old Gaelic root albhus meaning "white". In Irish legend she was a warrior of the Fianna.
ÁINE - Means "radiance" in Gaelic. This was the name of the queen of the fairies in Celtic mythology.
AISLING - Means "dream" or "vision" in Irish Gaelic.
ALASTRÍONA - Feminine form of ALASTAR
AOIBHEANN - Means "beautiful sheen" in Irish Gaelic. This was the name of the mother of Saint Enda. It was also borne by several Irish princesses.
AOIFE - Means "beauty" from the Gaelic word aoibh. In Irish legend Aoife was a warrior princess. In war against her sister Scathach, she was defeated in single combat by the hero Cuchulainn. Eventually she was reconciled with her sister and became the lover of Cuchulainn.
BÉIBHINN - Means "fair lady" in Irish Gaelic.
BLÁITHÍN - Means "little flower", derived from the Irish word blath "flower" and a diminutive suffix.
BLÁTHNAT - Means "little flower" from the Irish word blath "flower" combined with a diminutive suffix. In Irish legend she was a maiden abducted and married by Cú Roí. She was rescued by Cuchulainn, who killed her husband, but she was in turn murdered by one of Cú Roí's loyal servants.
BRIANNA - Feminine form of BRIAN
BRIGHID - Means "exalted one". In Irish mythology she was the goddess of fire, poetry and wisdom, the daughter of the god Dagda. This name was also borne by two import saints: a patron saint of Ireland (also known as Brigid) who established a convent at Kildare in the 5th century, and the patron saint of Sweden (also known as Birgitta) who founded an order of nuns in the 14th century.
BROGAN - Derived from Irish Gaelic brón meaning "sorrow". Saint Brónach was a 6th-century mystic from Ireland.
BRÓNACH - Derived from Irish Gaelic brón meaning "sorrow". Saint Brónach was a 6th-century mystic from Ireland.
CAOILFHIONN - Derived from the Gaelic elements caol "slender" and fionn "fair". This was the name of several Irish saints.
CAOIMHE - Derived from Gaelic caomh meaning "beautiful".
CIANNAIT - Feminine form of CIAN
CIARA - Feminine form of CIARAN. Saint Ciara was an Irish nun who established a monastery at Kilkeary in the 7th century.
CLÍODHNA - Possibly means "shapely" in Irish Gaelic. In Irish legend this was the name of a beautiful goddess. She fell in love with a mortal named Ciabhan and left the Land of Promise with him, but when she arrived on the other shore she was swept to sea by a great wave.
CLODAGH - From the name of a river in Tipperary, Ireland.
DÁIRÍNE - Derived from Irish Gaelic dáire meaning "fruitful, fertile".
DAMHNAIT - Means "little fawn" from Gaelic damh "fawn" combined with a diminutive suffix.
DEARBHÁIL - Means "daughter of Fál", derived from Gaelic der "daughter" and Fál, a legendary name for Ireland.
DEIRBHILE - Means "daughter of a poet" from Gaelic der "daughter" and file "poet". This was the name of a 6th-century Irish saint.
DEIRDRE - Meaning unknown, possibly derived from a Celtic word meaning "woman". She was a tragic character in Irish legend who died of a broken heart after Conchobhar, the king of Ulster, forced her to be his bride and killed her lover Naoise.
DOIREANN - Possibly means either "sullen" or "daughter of FIONN" in Irish.
DYMPHNA - This was the name of a 7th-century martyr, the patron saint of lunatics.
EIREANN - From Eirinn, the dative case of Gaelic Eire, meaning "Ireland".
EITHNE - Means "kernel" in Gaelic. This was the name of a 5th-century Irish saint, sister of Saint Fidelma and follower of Saint Patrick.
EMER - Possibly from Gaelic eimh "swift". In Irish legend she was the wife of Cuchulainn. She was said to possess the six gifts of womanhood: beauty, voice, speech, needlework, wisdom and chastity.
FEIDHELM - Feminine form of FEIDHLIM. In Irish legend she was a daughter of Conchobhar the king of Ulster.
FÍONA - Derived from Irish fion meaning "vine".
FIONNGHUALA - Means "white shoulder" from Irish fionn "white, fair" and guala "shoulder". In Irish legend Fionnghuala was one of the four children of Lir who were transformed into swans for a period of 900 years
GOBNAIT - Feminine form of GOBÁN. This was the name of a 6th-century Irish abbess, the patron saint of Ballyvourney.
GORMLAITH - Means "illustrious princess" from Irish gorm "illustrious" and flaith "princess, lady". This was the name of the wife of Brian Boru.
GRÁINNE - Possibly derived from Gaelic grán meaning "grain". This was the name of an ancient Irish grain goddess. The name also belonged to the fiancée of Fionn mac Cumhail and the lover of Diarmuid in later Irish legend, and it is often associated with gráidh "love".
ÍDE - Possibly derived from Old Irish ítu "thirst". This was the name of a 6th-century Irish saint.
LÍADAN - Means "grey lady" in Irish Gaelic. In Irish legend she was a poetess who became a nun, but then missed her lover Cuirithir so much that she died of grief.
LUÍSEACH - Derived from the name of the Irish god LUGH.
MAEVE - From the Gaelic name Méabh meaning "intoxicating". In Irish legend this was the name of a warrior queen of Connacht. She organized the death of the hero Cuchulainn.
MAURA - Possibly from Gaelic mór meaning "great". This was the name of an obscure 5th-century Irish or Scottish martyr.
MAVOURNEEN - Derived from the Irish phrase mo múirnín meaning "my darling".
MÓR - Means "great" in Gaelic.
MUADHNAIT - Means "little noble one", derived from Irish muadh "noble, good" combined with a diminutive suffix.
MUIREANN - Means "fair sea", derived from Gaelic muir "sea" and fionn "fair, white". In Irish legend this was the name of the mother of Fionn mac Cumhail.
MUIRGEN - Means "born of the sea" in Irish Gaelic. In Irish legend this was a maiden who was transformed into a salmon.
MUIRGHEAL - Means "bright sea", derived from Gaelic muir "sea" and geal "bright".
MUIRNE - Means "beloved" in Irish Gaelic.
NAOISE - Meaning unknown, presumably of Gaelic origin. In Irish legend he was the young man who eloped with Deirdre, the beloved of Conchobhar the king of Ulster. Conchobhar eventually succeeded in having Naoise murdered, which caused Deirdre to die of grief.
NAOMH - Means "holy" in Irish Gaelic.
NEASA - Meaning unknown, presumably of Gaelic origin. In Irish legend she was the mother of Conchobhar, king of Ulster.
NIAMH - Means "bright" in Irish. She was the daughter of the sea god in Irish legends. She fell in love with the poet Oisin, son of Fionn.
ODHARNAIT - Means "little pale green one", derived from Irish odhra "pale green, sallow" combined with a diminutive suffix.
ÓRFHLAITH - Means "golden princess" from Irish ór "gold" combined with flaith "princess". This was the name of a sister of the Irish king Brian Boru.
RATHNAIT - Means "little graceful one", derived from Irish rath "grace" combined with a diminutive suffix.
SABIA - Means "sweet" in Irish Gaelic.
SADHBH - Means "sweet, goodly" in Irish Gaelic.
SAOIRSE - Means "freedom" in Irish Gaelic.
SARAID - Means "excellent" in Irish Gaelic.
SIOFRA - Perhaps means "elf" in Irish Gaelic.
SÍTHMAITH - Means "good peace" from Irish síth "peace" and maith "good".
SLÁINE - Means "health" in Irish Gaelic.
SORCHA - Means "radiant" in Gaelic.
TUILELAITH - Derived from Irish tuile "abundance" and flaith "princess"
TREASA - Possibly means "strength" in Irish Gaelic.
UNA - Possibly derived from Irish uan meaning "lamb".
I think the surnames in VI should suffice.
...Scottish names to come soon...
...and then king lists to come after (although IIRC PseRamesses has already produced one on the old forum)
Oh and Norseman, don't worry, I've got it all saved nice and snug on my HD. :)

[Admin]

Posted: Aug. 03 2004,06:26

PseRamesses


In Sweden there will be two obvious ones, and 1-2 more(?):
1)The Sveas in Uppsala.
2)The Götas(spelling?). According to Snorri they lived along the Swedish SE coast, and rivaled the Sveas for the power.
3)Possibly Gotland. Gotland was a rich and important trading community.
4)Any suggestions?1. Ok
2. Ok
3. Nope
4. Västgötar
During the timeframe of the mod we can clearly see three major power spheres in Sweden. "Svear" based in Upsala, "Västgötar" based around Skara and "Östgötar" based around Alvastra/ Vadstena. Theese three "families/ dynasties" battled each out in a constant quest for power. After the "battle at Bråvalla hed" around 750Ad King Ring was proclaimed king over the following regions; Svealand, Västergötaland, Östergötaland, Småland, Blekinge, Öland and Gotland. The feuds continued however between theese three regions. In 1022, however, Olof Skötkonung was proclaimed king over the Svear, Östgötar and Västgötar but the powerstruggle didn´t stop until Birger Jarl "unifyed" Sweden under his son Valdemar Birgersson reign around 1250Ad.
When it comes to Gotland they where a very imporatant trading community but never an independent kingdom under their own rule.

[Admin]

Posted: Aug. 03 2004,06:33
PseRamesses

@ Norse and VH,
Is it possible to trigger rebellions or the re-emregance of factions or is this hardcoded too?

[PseRamesses]

Huraaah for TosaInu. He´has retrived all "lost" posts between the 27th of July and 4th of August. Ja mata, TosaInu-san! ~:cheers:

[PseRamesses]

Regarding new structures in FotN.

Earlier I suggested that a new province-income could be generated by a so called "fish-trap" for coastal provinces. This bronze/ iron age contraption is still in use today, mostly in undeveloped regions. Now, I think it was Norse that suggested that this structure could only be built in provinces with fish as a resource which I disagree on. I´ve been reding up on this structure and it is mostly placed in bays where a river flows into the sea. This means that if we should be realistic all coastal provinces with a river should get this attribute. I still belive, like Norse, that fish as a resource should be almost a Norwegian monopoly.

Anther thing I do miss in MTW is mercenary fleets/ ships. However I do not know if this is appropriate in the viking-era historically. They should be available in coastal provinces with a port and an inn. Any comments?

[VikingHorde]

Posted: Aug. 03 2004,06:33
PseRamesses

@ Norse and VH,
Is it possible to trigger rebellions or the re-emregance of factions or is this hardcoded too?

Hmm, It's possible to make provinces more rebellios, but I think most of it is hardcoded. I have tryed some to different setups, but without any luck.

@PseRamesses
The building is a good idea. It can be added like an abbey and give an income every year. It fairly easy to make.

[gaelic cowboy]

=AdminFurthermore I think we should at least have one more irish faction, maybe even two, to reflect the fact that the Irish fought amongst themselves just as much as the vikings. In fact, Irish factions often allied themselves with vikings for mutual benefit. I don't know which Irish faction(s) to choose though.

What timeframe's are you locked into for the mod and I will give you all the info you need.


Ancient maps of Ireland (http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1100.htm)

[PseRamesses]

What timeframe's are you locked into for the mod and I will give you all the info you need.Ancient maps of Ireland (http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1100.htm)

Gaelic Cowboy,
Outstanding link, thanks! The timeframe is set to roughly 750-1050Ad. Ireland should have one more faction and one more province, at least, compared to VI. Any intel, suggestions is greatly appreciated. Feel free to suggest unique units, new structures/ buildings or other graphics too. Thanks in advance!

[gaelic cowboy]

Well depending on wether you include Munster which in that time period would probally be more correctly know as Cashel you must include the Dal Cassians who's most famous sons were Brian Boru and his brother Mahon, at the same time Malachy of the Ui Neill who became king of Meath which is roughly Breaga in VI succeeded Brian as High King in 1014 to regain the Highkingship which incidently he had held before Brian forced him to renounce it in favour of the Dal Cassian claim.
For your province's use the map from the 700 in the link I posted earlier.
By adding just one of those provinces you are on the right track but seeing as how Ulaid is split in 3 and munster apears to be still one I would split it there are various names you can give a divided munster the best are probally Cashel ,Eoghanacht and Ossary anyone of those is sorted.
Too be honest just about all ye need is in that link so have a good ol root and enjoy the factoids ~;)

[PseRamesses]

Well depending on wether you include Munster which in that time period would probally be more correctly know as Cashel you must include the Dal Cassians who's most famous sons were Brian Boru and his brother Mahon, at the same time Malachy of the Ui Neill who became king of Meath which is roughly Breaga in VI succeeded Brian as High King in 1014 to regain the Highkingship which incidently he had held before Brian forced him to renounce it in favour of the Dal Cassian claim.
For your province's use the map from the 700 in the link I posted earlier.
By adding just one of those provinces you are on the right track but seeing as how Ulaid is split in 3 and munster apears to be still one I would split it there are various names you can give a divided munster the best are probally Cashel ,Eoghanacht and Ossary anyone of those is sorted.
Too be honest just about all ye need is in that link so have a good ol root and enjoy the factoids ~;)

Gaelic Cowboy,
I agree that using the "700Ad" map is sound advice, splitting Munster is also the most obvious choice. You recommend putting in the Dal Cassians which I don´t agree upon since they rose to power too late for this mod. The dividing of Munster and the suggested use of this "700Ad map would give us two new provs in this area so what factions do you feel are the best candidates to start in 750Ad?

[gaelic cowboy]

Agreed they were always minor before clontarf although there prominence was almost undisputed at one stage they faded after clontarf and it is the main reason no sort of monarcy developed on a european scale in ireland.
Seeing as your splitting munster an keeping the other provs I take that means
connaught
laigin
ulaid
Brega

maybe

Desmumu + Tuadh Mumu as a split munster

Capitals of each prov have to be Gleanamain and Caisil in my view.
Ah well I guess you can but in ol Brianey as a hero king or summit

One question are you keeping the scots in Ulaid if so then the Ui neill are in Brega as they claim the high kingship which is historically supposed to be in tara even if it is only cermonial in nature. They are probally to be better placed to take Ireland with Laigin and Brega even though they didn't really control laigin I would give em it unless you want it even harder on second thoughts why not take it off them the Irish are divided and should be at great peril from the Vikings through their division.
Factions at this time has to be the Eoganacht with them in Desmumu rebel prov could be Tuadh Mumu although they own some of it at this time also.
One thought though is it might be too much having 3 factions on an island and only connachta left as rebels so Tuadh Mumu should be rebel too
Capitals of each prov have to be gleanamain and caisil in my view.
I just thought maybe it might be better to use Thomond and Desmond so you can have Tuadh Mumhan and Desmumu
Then you can have Eoganacht in Gleanmain rebels in Tuadh Mumhanin in Casil.


In case some people are wondering why the mames in these maps don't say have family names like Kelly Murphy thats cos even at this late stage the ancient clans are still loosely allied into major tribe's so for example

Boland is Dalcassian as is O Brien and Calaghan is an Eoganacht

These ancient names are remnants of the origanal tribal names when the celts first settled in the great migration'a around Europe

[gaelic cowboy]

~:joker: god I himmed and hawwed all night with these divisions good job I wasn't on the whole project or space total war 12 would be out. Suggestion for some buildings say a couple of religious buildings in Tuadh Mumu now heres a thought don't abbeys attract the Vikings along with ports by doing that the rebels would be attacked and the historical interference by the vikings in the modern day Limerick area would happen just a thought.

[King Azzole]

Man this still isnt out? :( Ill do the deadpage if you need me too when its all done and ready. Just pM me

[PseRamesses]

Seeing as your splitting munster an keeping the other provs I take that means
connaught
laigin
ulaid
Brega

Desmumu + Tuadh Mumu as a split munster
Capitals of each prov have to be Gleanamain and Caisil in my view.


I agree GC. Could you draw a temp map with borders and put in all suggested prov-names and factions? Post it here. Your suggestions are as good as others.


One question are you keeping the scots in Ulaid if so then the Ui neill are in Brega as they claim the high kingship which is historically supposed to be in tara even if it is only cermonial in nature. They are probally to be better placed to take Ireland with Laigin and Brega even though they didn't really control laigin I would give em it unless you want it even harder on second thoughts why not take it off them the Irish are divided and should be at great peril from the Vikings through their division.

Personally I like to keep the Scots in Ulaid although I´m not shure of its historical accuracy.


Factions at this time has to be the Eoganacht with them in Desmumu rebel prov could be Tuadh Mumu although they own some of it at this time also. One thought though is it might be too much having 3 factions on an island and only connachta left as rebels so Tuadh Mumu should be rebel too. Capitals of each prov have to be gleanamain and caisil in my view. I just thought maybe it might be better to use Thomond and Desmond so you can have Tuadh Mumhan and Desmumu. Then you can have Eoganacht in Gleanmain rebels in Tuadh Mumhanin in Casil.

Sounds good to me and yes, 3 Irish factions will be too much.

[PseRamesses]

~:joker: god I himmed and hawwed all night with these divisions good job I wasn't on the whole project or space total war 12 would be out.

I quite don´t follow you on this. Can you elaborate. Sorry but english isn´t my native lang.


Suggestion for some buildings say a couple of religious buildings in Tuadh Mumu.

What are you suggesting? Something different from pagan shrine and temple?


now heres a thought don't abbeys attract the Vikings along with ports by doing that the rebels would be attacked and the historical interference by the vikings in the modern day Limerick area would happen just a thought.

Yes, abbeys attract vikings but ports have nothing to do with it since they don´t need it for raiding. I agree that this will attract raids and thus creating some historical accuracy. We can also add the respective province number to attract raids in the text-files.

[PseRamesses]

Man this still isnt out? :( Ill do the deadpage if you need me too when its all done and ready. Just pM me

What´s the rush ;) ? Actually we´re more interested in historical accuracy than a quick release so just sit tight KA, it will come out, eventually, even if its just me and Norse left in the end. Another fact that´s hampering us is that modding hasn´t really begun yet its just me keeping the thread/ topic alive and doing a lot of research with our researchers Wilpurri, Trax, Trashaholic, Aethelred and GC so that most of this work will be done when Norse can start modding. Vikinghorde has some work left on XL and will join in a couple of weeks - that´s it.
If you feel you can contribute please do. Any mod-skills can be used - interested? BTW, by "deadpage" you mean homepage, eh?

[Norseman]

@Crew
Will be back at my own PC in two-three days. From then on I should be able to do some modding on a fairly regular basis, at least for a couple of months.

My first tasks will be to complete the castle/buildprod test and update the first post in this thread. Meanwhile I hope we can come up with a completed list of factions.

@gaelic cowboy
THX for all your info on Ireland.


One question are you keeping the scots in Ulaid
Not sure. As PseR asked; Is it historically correct? Some time ago, I tried to do a littlebit of research for the mod on Ireland. I ended up with the impression that the Scots didn't hold much land in ireland by 800AD. I may be dead wrong though, cause I was pretty confused. I was never able to find out just what factions were the important ones.


Originally Posted by PseRamesses

Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
Seeing as your splitting munster an keeping the other provs I take that means
connaught
laigin
ulaid
Brega

Desmumu + Tuadh Mumu as a split munster
Capitals of each prov have to be Gleanamain and Caisil in my view.

I agree GC. Could you draw a temp map with borders and put in all suggested prov-names and factions? Post it here. Your suggestions are as good as others.

I echo PseR on this, a map/factions suggestion from you GC would be very helpful. For now, please just disregard anything we have come up with earlier and make your own suggestion for one more irish region and 1-2 more irish factions.

[King Azzole]

What´s the rush ;) ? Actually we´re more interested in historical accuracy than a quick release so just sit tight KA, it will come out, eventually, even if its just me and Norse left in the end. Another fact that´s hampering us is that modding hasn´t really begun yet its just me keeping the thread/ topic alive and doing a lot of research with our researchers Wilpurri, Trax, Trashaholic, Aethelred and GC so that most of this work will be done when Norse can start modding. Vikinghorde has some work left on XL and will join in a couple of weeks - that´s it.
If you feel you can contribute please do. Any mod-skills can be used - interested? BTW, by "deadpage" you mean homepage, eh?

No no I mean DEADPAGE COORDINATES. Its in textures/men folder. If you dont do a deadpage for your custom unit file deadbodys wont appear on the battlefield when you play.

[PseRamesses]

No no I mean DEADPAGE COORDINATES. Its in textures/men folder. If you dont do a deadpage for your custom unit file deadbodys wont appear on the battlefield when you play.

Ahhh ~:lightbulb: Sorry but I´m not good at the text-files and theese kind of modding skills. Sounds great to me. Just drop Noresman a PM and work things out with him since he coordinate all modding. I´m just a hard-core map maker, idea-producer and public realtions guy, he he! Thansk for the enlightenment KA.

[King Azzole]

My pleasure, will drop him a note ASAP.

[wilpuri]

Hello Everyone, long time no see ~:wave:

I've been away for a while, because I was distracted by a very beautiful phenomenon called the Finnish summer (which was very rainy and rather mild this year), but now I'm back, and I will begin working with the Baltic tech-trees later this week. Glad to see some new faces ~:)

[Norseman]

@wilpuri
~:wave:
Good to have you back wilpuri. Before you start work on the tech-tree, could you possibly post what factions you think should be in Finland and the Baltics(no more than 5, du to the 30 limit)?
We need a completed factionlist before we get to far into the unit and tech-tree txt files. I know we have discussed this before, but I simply have to much info around on my HD, so your suggestion would save me quite a bit of time.

@King Azzole
THX for your helpful offer. However it is still quite some time until this mod can actually be released, and I think the deadpage coordinates will not be done until we are nearing completion, so you'll have to be patient. ~:wave:

[thrashaholic]

Hi everyone, sorry I haven't posted in a while, I've been a little preoccupied as of late.


We need a completed factionlist before we get to far into the unit and tech-tree txt files. I know we have discussed this before, but I simply have to much info around on my HD, so your suggestion would save me quite a bit of time.

I posted a faction list for the British Isles on the temporary forum, but it seems to have been lost. Anyway, here are my opinions on the British (and English) factions (I'll leave the Irish factions in the more expert hands of Gaelic Cowboy ~:) ):

Anglo-Saxon factions:

Mercia
Northumbria
Wessex
East Anglia
(Essex, Kent, and Sussex as rebels)

Celtic fations:

Cymru (Wales)
Strathclyde
Scots
Picts

[wilpuri]

could you possibly post what factions you think should be in Finland and the Baltics(no more than 5, du to the 30 limit)?

I think these are good candidates for the Baltic factions:
Karelians
People of Saaremaa
Curonians
Prussians
Lithuanians

[PseRamesses]

1. Odin

2. Rebels

Norwegian
3. Vestfold
4. Vingulmark
5. Firda
6. Rogaland

Swedish
7. Svear
8. Östgötar
9. Västgötar

10. Danish

English
11. Mercia
12. Northumbria
13. Wessex
14. East Anglia
15. Cymru (Wales)
16. Scots
17. Picts

Irish
18.
19.

20. West Franks (French)

21. "Dutch dutchy"

German factions
22. East Franks (Germans)
23. Obodrites
24. Veletis

25. Polish

Finland
26. People of Saaremaa
27. Karelians

Russia
28. Staraya Ladoga
29. Novgorod
30. Kiev

Baltics
31. Prussians
32. Lithuanians
33. Curonians
34. Semgallians
35. Latgals
36. Livonians

We´re down to 36 factions so four more have to go. Any suggestions? IMO some of the minor Baltic facs and maybee the Dutch Dutchy can be taken out also although I´d like some balance, or a strong rebel, between West- and East Franks around modern day Holland.
I suggest that either Saarema or Karelians go, Dutch Dutchy, Latgalls or Semigallians and one of the "german" tribes of Obodrites or Veletis. This will make it 32 factions including the rebels and the Odin faction. What do you guys think?

[Norseman]

Big THX to PseRamesses for compiling the list of potential factions!

As you say, we have 36 but need to get down to the max limit of 32. IMO we should not drop any of the viking factions. I find 8 viking factions to be the minimum in a "Fury of the Northmen" mod.


We´re down to 36 factions so four more have to go. Any suggestions? IMO some of the minor Baltic facs and maybee the Dutch Dutchy can be taken out also although I´d like some balance, or a strong rebel, between West- and East Franks around modern day Holland.
I suggest that either Saarema or Karelians go, Dutch Dutchy, Latgalls or Semigallians and one of the "german" tribes of Obodrites or Veletis. This will make it 32 factions including the rebels and the Odin faction. What do you guys think?

My thoughts exactly. We will probably need one Finnish faction for gameplay reasons, and although the baltics need to be a bit crowded to give Swedish vikings some opposition, 4 should be enough.

The Dutch(+Friesland&Lorraine) was for some time under the 3rd Frankish kingdom following the fall of Charlemagne, however as the struggle for power in central Europe isn't part of this mod I think we can leave that region as rebels.

This makes a total of 32 factions. So then, does anybody have any comments to this factionlist? If not, this is what we will use to work from now on.

As for the Russians; will we need Kiev? So far we have considered the map without Kiev. I know, a bit odd considering the viking background of Kiev and its central position in viking traderoutes. However, if we are to include Kiev as well the scope of the mod will get too big, as if you are to be able to play the Kievans properly you'll need the Black Sea and Constantinopel as well. If we are to include the faction Kiev, is it then not better to treat it like the unplayable and protected(isolated homeregion) Frankish factions?

BTW, in possible later additional campaigns(similar to EARLY, HIGH, LATE), we will need additional factions like the Normans, but hopefully by then some original factions are nothing but tales for the storytellers ~D

[PseRamesses]

If we are to include the faction Kiev, is it then not better to treat it like the unplayable and protected(isolated homeregion) Frankish factions?
BTW, in possible later additional campaigns(similar to EARLY, HIGH, LATE), we will need additional factions like the Normans, but hopefully by then some original factions are nothing but tales for the storytellers ~D

My thought exactly. The Kievans are there only for stability in the east and trade but if someone can argue to drop them in favour of someone else. So now the big Q´s are which should go?

1. Karelians or Saarema?
2. Obdorites or Veletis?
3. Latgalls or Semigallians?

@Gaelic Cowboy, What are your final decision on the two Irish factions that starts in 750 bc?

[wilpuri]

What's wrong with the 5 factions I posted? I think that the People of Saaremaa should definately be in, since Estonia deserves at least one factions and Saaremaa was a significant faction in the Baltic area, especially towards the end of the Viking age. I can't say about the Slavic factions (Obdorites or Veletis) since I haven't researched them. Anyway, the 5 factions I listed would be the ones I would have represent the area i researched.

Karelians
People of Saaremaa
Curonians
Prussians
Lithuanians

[Norseman]

What's wrong with the 5 factions I posted? I think that the People of Saaremaa should definately be in, since Estonia deserves at least one factions and Saaremaa was a significant faction in the Baltic area, especially towards the end of the Viking age. I can't say about the Slavic factions (Obdorites or Veletis) since I haven't researched them. Anyway, the 5 factions I listed would be the ones I would have represent the area i researched.
Karelians
People of Saaremaa
Curonians
Prussians
Lithuanians

Umhh...a slight misunderstanding here...I was under the impression that those listed were all in the baltics ~:) Sorry, my mistake.

So then the Karelians are the Finnish faction then, right? In Eastern Finland?

[Norseman]

So, to sum it up so far, the faction list look like this:

Additional:
1. Odin
2. Rebels

Norse Vikings:
3. Vestfold
4. Vingulmark
5. Firda
6. Rogaland

Swede Vikings:
7. Svear
8. Östgötar
9. Västgötar

Dane Vikings:
10. Danish

Finnish tribes:
11. Karelians

Baltic tribes:
12. People of Saaremaa
13. Curonians
14. Prussians
15. Lithuanians

Russians:
16. Staraya Ladoga
17. Novgorod
18. Kiev

Northern Germany:
19. Obodrites
20. Veletis

Central European NON-PLAYABLES:
21. West Franks (French)
22. East Franks (Germans)
23. Polish

England, Wales and Scotland:
24. Mercia
25. Northumbria
26. Wessex
27. East Anglia
28. Cymru (Wales)
29. Scots
30. Picts

Ireland:
31. ?
32. ?

From my limited knowledge on Ireland I'm guessing we need a faction in Munster(Where they called "Desmumu"??), as this is where the famous Brian Boru came from. Didn't he more or less unite Ireland around 1000?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Although Brian Boru assured a strong rule after his great victory at Glen Mama in 999, there were several rulers left such as Maelmordha, a member of the Dunlaing Clan which resided north of Hy Kinsella, was king of Leinster in AD 1014. In years past he and the Norse of Dublin had fought against the High King of Ireland, Brian Boru, but been defeated at Glen Mama. At the conclusion of this battle, Maelmordha (much to his embarrassment) was found high up in a yew tree, hiding from his enemies. After that defeat Maelmordha submitted to Brian and paid the required annual tribute.


I can get more solid faction info if Gaelic Cowboy is busy mates

[PseRamesses]

Although Brian Boru assured a strong rule after his great victory at Glen Mama in 999, there were several rulers left such as Maelmordha, a member of the Dunlaing Clan which resided north of Hy Kinsella, was king of Leinster in AD 1014.
I can get more solid faction info if Gaelic Cowboy is busy mates

Greetings BKB,
FotN starts in 750AD and runs to 1050AD. GC had some intel on which two factions we should use for Ireland. He posted it earlier so it´s in the thread but I just wanted him to get a final say since he has put in some work in this area. Any input from you is always welcome so what do you suggest? We want two Irish factions that was dominant during the timeframe of this mod.

[PseRamesses]

What's wrong with the 5 factions I posted? I think that the People of Saaremaa should definately be in, since Estonia deserves at least one factions and Saaremaa was a significant faction in the Baltic area, especially towards the end of the Viking age. I can't say about the Slavic factions (Obdorites or Veletis) since I haven't researched them. Anyway, the 5 factions I listed would be the ones I would have represent the area i researched.

Karelians
People of Saaremaa
Curonians
Prussians
Lithuanians

Wilpurri,
My bad. I mistook the People of Saremaa for one of the Finnish factions, sorry! Ofcourse Estonia should have some representations.

@Norse,
I saw that you deleted both the galls in the Baltics and kept both the northern german tribes instead, any reason?

[PseRamesses]

What's wrong with the 5 factions I posted? I think that the People of Saaremaa should definately be in, since Estonia deserves at least one factions and Saaremaa was a significant faction in the Baltic area, especially towards the end of the Viking age. I can't say about the Slavic factions (Obdorites or Veletis) since I haven't researched them. Anyway, the 5 factions I listed would be the ones I would have represent the area i researched.

Karelians
People of Saaremaa
Curonians
Prussians
Lithuanians

Wilpurri,
My bad. I mistook the People of Saremaa for one of the Finnish factions, sorry! Ofcourse Estonia should have some representations.

@Norse,
I saw that you deleted both the galls in the Baltics and kept both the northern german tribes instead, any reason?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

There were around 7 kingdoms circa 700 ad ireland.

For balance i feel you should add munster in the south. The Eoganacht ruled munster from 7th to mid 10th centurys. This power though was crumbling around the late 9th century, and they were gradually replaced by the Dal Cais in Thomond(north munster) in the mid tenth century.

For the second it has to be a faction in the north, say one of the Ui Neill dynasties and i would put in the Northern branch. They were ruled by Cenel nEoghain by the late eight century and had the ulster plain and many minor kingdoms under their rule.

If you need any more tidbits just ask mates

[PseRamesses]

There were around 7 kingdoms circa 700 ad ireland.
For balance i feel you should add munster in the south. The Eoganacht ruled munster from 7th to mid 10th centurys. This power though was crumbling around the late 9th century, and they were gradually replaced by the Dal Cais in Thomond(north munster) in the mid tenth century.
For the second it has to be a faction in the north, say one of the Ui Neill dynasties and i would put in the Northern branch. They were ruled by Cenel nEoghain by the late eight century and had the ulster plain and many minor kingdoms under their rule.
If you need any more tidbits just ask mates

Thanks BKB. I found GC´s post on this. Any comment?



Seeing as your splitting munster an keeping the other provs I take that means
connaught
laigin
ulaid
Brega
Desmumu + Tuadh Mumu as a split munster
Capitals of each prov have to be Gleanamain and Caisil in my view.

You´re keeping the scots in Ulaid then the Ui neill are in Brega as they claim the high kingship which is historically supposed to be in tara even if it is only cermonial in nature. They are probally to be better placed to take Ireland with Laigin and Brega even though they didn't really control laigin I would give em it unless you want it even harder on second thoughts why not take it off them the Irish are divided and should be at great peril from the Vikings through their division.

IMO a split Munster with a southern and a northern Irish faction is viable with the Scots holding Ulaid.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I like that idea PR, how many provinces are you doing in ireland, something like 6-8?

[Meneldil]

Wow, after reading the whole thread, I have to admit that this mod is really promising.

I read somewhere that you were planning to make the main province of germany, france and poland un-attackable, while not allowing them to attack.

Wouldn't it be possible to allow them to attack (though still keeping them protected from player's attacks) with the
"//How do the regions link together?
//Region in question first, followed
//by its neighbours.
//Regions can have a maximum number of
//15 neighbours. Any more and Medieval
//will crash." thingy ?

I think it would add a lot to the gameplay, with the player having to keep a eye on this provinces.

Btw, if you plan to add norman names or units to the game, I would glady help you.

Good luck anyway ~:)

[PseRamesses]

I like that idea PR, how many provinces are you doing in ireland, something like 6-8?

Connaught
Laigin
Ulaid
Brega
Desmumu
Tuadh Mumu

Theese are the preliminary provs in Ireland for now. In the end we have to consider the whole strat-map since we will use the maximum amount of provs allowed in this mod. England will have almost all provs from VI. Due to the complexity of the strat-map, described earlier in this thread, we´ll probably merge the two northern Welsh provs into one and the Northumbrian province of Elmete (the one in the middle) will probably also be merged into its neighbouring provs. Otherwise we´ll probably fit in all the provs from VI.

[Norseman]

Originally Posted by PseRamesses
@Norse,
I saw that you deleted both the galls in the Baltics and kept both the northern german tribes instead, any reason?
Today 00:27


No, I hardly know anything about them but was under the impression that they(northern german tribes) were important enough to be kept, and Wilpuri didn't name the Gals on his list of 5 Finnish/Baltic factions...

If it is your opinion that the Gals were more significant than one of the german tribes, then I have no objections to making this change.

What do you think Wilpuri?

BTW are you thinking about the Semgallians or the Latgals, or both of them combined into one faction maybe?



Originally Posted by Meneldil
Wow, after reading the whole thread, I have to admit that this mod is really promising.

THX, nice to hear that you think so! You will have to embrace yourself with some patience though, because we will certainly not be finished before RTW. However we are determined to complete it one day.


I read somewhere that you were planning to make the main province of germany, france and poland un-attackable, while not allowing them to attack.

Wouldn't it be possible to allow them to attack (though still keeping them protected from player's attacks) with the
"//How do the regions link together?
//Region in question first, followed
//by its neighbours.
//Regions can have a maximum number of
//15 neighbours. Any more and Medieval
//will crash." thingy ?

I think it would add a lot to the gameplay, with the player having to keep a eye on this provinces.

Btw, if you plan to add norman names or units to the game, I would glady help you.
Good luck anyway

This is exactly what we are planning. The idea is to give the French, Germans and the Poles(and possibly also the Kievans) an un-attackable homeregion, but they will be able to attack any regions next to themselves. What we are hoping to accomplish is that you as a player will not be able to conquer the central European regions along the map edge and thus gain a strategically secure flank that provides lots of farm income. In addition, the Danish vikings will start out very strong and need a strong enemy to the south to balance it. This is BTW very histrically correct, as the German(East Frankish) King attempted to attack Denmark several times in this timeperiod.

The only drawback is that we will have to trick the game-engine, and we might end up with a ship and a port appear inland on the strategy map. There might be workarounds for this however, it needs a bit of testing.

[PseRamesses]

No, I hardly know anything about them but was under the impression that they(northern german tribes) were important enough to be kept, and Wilpuri didn't name the Gals on his list of 5 Finnish/Baltic factions...

If it is your opinion that the Gals were more significant than one of the german tribes, then I have no objections to making this change.

BTW are you thinking about the Semgallians or the Latgals, or both of them combined into one faction maybe?

No I don´t think they were more important it´s just looked liked you missed out on them or had a significant reason for excluding them that´s why I asked m8. We´ll see what Wilpurri think since he´s our eastern marshall, he he! BTW, have you heard from GC, Trashaholic, Aethelred and Alman9898 lately? Would be nice to have their vote on the factions too, don´t you think?

[thrashaholic]

Hi, I'm here, don't worry ~:)

I think your factions for Britain are fine. Potentially if you're really running out of factions I'd say you could remove East Anglia as a faction, but IMO it'd be best to leave them in, and make them pretty strong, as it would help prevent the Vikings getting a foothold in the South of England, which historically they didn't.

I've noticed you've decided to remove Strathclyde as a faction, which is fine because they were conquered fairly soon after the beginning of the mod, but I'd make them fairly strong as rebels and I'd give them the "Cumbri" province from Northumbria. This has the dual effect of giving the Strathclyde rebels more historically accurate boundaries, and making Northumbria weaker, which once again was historically accurate as Northumbria was a fading kingdom at the time of this mod. Weakening Northumbria should also encourage the Viking factions to attack the North of England.

So in short, IMO, the factions you intend to use in Britain are fine. ~:cheers:

[gaelic cowboy]

I agree with BKB it has to be a split munster so it will look like this

Connachta
Laigin
Breaga
Ulaid

Desmunu
Tuadh Mumu

There is a map at this link with an approximate shape your looking I no good with any actual modding stuff but I can offer info if it any good. The only problem is if the scots are kept in Ulaid the Ui neill need to be compesated for losing Ulaid as the scots known as the Dal riada didn't really own all of ulster just a small bit of it in the east coast around present day Antrim and Down I would say.

Thomond and Desmond (http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/thomond.htm)

Rebels in connachta Laigin and Tuadh Mumu
Eoghanacht in Des mumu
Ui neill in Breaga

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Dia Duit, Buachaill B'o ghaelic , A chara ,

An bhuil tu go mhaith ? ( coming from a Brummie- I bet you're impressed! ~D )


I like the sound of this mod. How is the modding side going by the way?


Maybe another province in the north area maybe Airgialla? to the west of Uliad. That could help as a buffer between the scot and Ul Neill provinces ~:wave:

[PseRamesses]

Dia Duit, Buachaill B'o ghaelic , A chara ,

An bhuil tu go mhaith ? ( coming from a Brummie- I bet you're impressed! ~D )

Que??? ~:eek: I do think some translation is in order Lord BKB... and what´s a "Brummie"... he he, this is cool!


I like the sound of this mod. How is the modding side going by the way?

Norse and others are just getting started. VH will join full time when XL is finished. Wanna help out???


Maybe another province in the north area maybe Airgialla? to the west of Uliad. That could help as a buffer between the scot and Ul Neill provinces ~:wave:

What I would really like is for someone to post a pic of Ireland when suggesting provinces, factions, divisions etc. I´m totally lost when it comes to Irish history... all the names are strange and I can´t keep names apart from eachother. So BKB and GC please illustrate. I DO want this to be right. Sorry for any inconveniance guys. :bow:

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Sorry Pse that was abit if Gaelic for GC, just a nice pleasantry and all that. A Brummie is a weird creature that inhabits the middle of england and i seem to have spawned from them!

I'm doing something secretive with the bkb mod at the mo and i'm up to my eyes as i'm trying to take a break with my family to a nice isolated place in scotland so i'm afraid i can't help on the modding side but if you need any info i'll be happy to help.

I'll post a map picture in a minute, hold on.....

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire700.htm

The map at the top of this picture is a good one

[Norseman]

@GC and BKB
Thanks for joining in on the fun BKB. We need every source of info we can get.


What I would really like is for someone to post a pic of Ireland when suggesting provinces, factions, divisions etc. I´m totally lost when it comes to Irish history... all the names are strange and I can´t keep names apart from eachother. So BKB and GC please illustrate. I DO want this to be right. Sorry for any inconveniance guys.

This goes for me too. I did try my best to get a picture of the irish clans and kings, but ended up more confused than when I started...

@everybody
The revised faction list so far:

Additional:
1. Odin
2. Rebels

Norse Vikings:
3. Vestfold
4. Vingulmark
5. Firda
6. Rogaland

Swede Vikings:
7. Svear
8. Östgötar
9. Västgötar

Dane Vikings:
10. Danish

Finnish tribes:
11. Karelians

Baltic tribes:
12. People of Saaremaa
13. Curonians
14. Prussians
15. Lithuanians

Russians:
16. Staraya Ladoga
17. Novgorod
18. Kiev(NON-PLAYABLE)

Northern Germany:
19. Obodrites?
20. Veletis?

Central European NON-PLAYABLES:
21. West Franks (French)
22. East Franks (Germans)
23. Polish

England, Wales and Scotland:
24. Mercia
25. Northumbria
26. Wessex
27. East Anglia
28. Cymru (Wales)
29. Scots
30. Picts

Ireland:
31. Eoghanacht
32. Ui neill

I've put question-marks on the Obodrites and the Veletis. If we want some more changes either of these can possibly be replaced with some new faction.

If this is the list we decide to base our mod on, we can move to step 2: grouping the factions according to culture and religion, to find out what factions should share unit and tech-tree.

[PseRamesses]

@Gaelic Cowboy,
Am I understanding you correctly: Desmunu is Desmond, Tuadh Mumu is Thomond and Breaga is ???? N. Ui Neill and Airgialla combined? S.Ui Neill gets absorbed into Laigin, or?

@BKB,
By the map you linked are you suggesting that we try for 8 provinces in Ireland; Ulaid, N.Ui Neill, Airgialla, Connacht, S.Ui Neill, Laigin and a split Munster into Desmunu and Tuadhmumu?

[gaelic cowboy]

[QUOTE=PseRamesses]@Gaelic Cowboy,
Am I understanding you correctly: Desmunu is Desmond, Tuadh Mumu is Thomond and Breaga is ???? N. Ui Neill and Airgialla combined? S.Ui Neill gets absorbed into Laigin, or?

Yes that is correct PseR

[PseRamesses]

Ultimately I´d love to see an 8 province Ireland with three Irish facs. Due to the size of Ireland on the strat-map I don´t think it´s possible to squeeze them in but we´ll keep it in mind when we´re finalizing things. For now we will use 6 provinces and 2 factions;

Ulaid
Breaga (N.Ui Neill and Airgialla merged)
Connacht
Laigin (S.Ui Neill and Laigin merged)
Desmunu (or is Desmond better?)
Tuadhmumu (or is Thomond better?)

Is Desmunu and Tuadmumu the Irish names and Desmond and Thomond the English names? If so I´d prefer to go with the domestic names for thoose provinces. The same goes for all provinces IMO.

Ui Neill clan in Breaga
Eoghanacht clan in Desmunu


@GC & BKB,
If I can squeeze in yet a 7th province which one should it be? N.Ui Neill, Airgialla or S.Ui Neill?

[JR-]

will FotN be an expansion, or a total conversion?

hate to ask this, but; is this expected soon, or "sometime in the future"?

thanks.

PeegeeTips

[Norseman]

will FotN be an expansion, or a total conversion?

Greetings Peregrine_Tergiversate. It will be a conversion.


hate to ask this, but; is this expected soon, or "sometime in the future"?


Definitively sometime in the future.

[JR-]

cheers.

so it will be a fresh install in a separate folder job?

ah well, gives one somehing to anticipate i suppose. :D

[Norseman]

In the following list I'll make the first attempt to group the different factions that will basically have the same tech-tree. All in all we can not have more than 6 basic tech-tree types.

Additional:
1. Odin
Will basicly be using the Viking Tech-Tree. However, as "Odin" will only sit in his isolated region he only need one building with a lot of happiness bonus to prevent rebellions: Valhalla

2. Rebels
Will be able to use any available tech-tree, limited by its regional resource dependence and religion of the rebels.

A: Viking Tech-tree
Norse Vikings:
3. Vestfold
4. Vingulmark
5. Firda
6. Rogaland
Swede Vikings:
7. Svear
8. Östgötar
9. Västgötar
Dane Vikings:
10. Danish

B: UK Tech-tree
England, Wales and Scotland:
24. Mercia
25. Northumbria
26. Wessex
27. East Anglia
28. Cymru (Wales)
29. Scots
30. Picts
Ireland:
31. Eoghanacht
32. Ui neill

C: Central European Tech-tree
21. West Franks (French)
22. East Franks (Germans)

D: Eastern European Tech-tree
Finnish tribes:
11. Karelians
Baltic tribes:
12. People of Saaremaa
13. Curonians
14. Prussians
15. Lithuanians
Russians:
16. Staraya Ladoga
17. Novgorod
18. Kiev(NON-PLAYABLE)
Northern Germany:
19. Obodrites?
20. Veletis?
Poles
23. Polish


Please let me know if you think something isn't right about this list. Especially I'm uncertain about the Irish/Celtic/Anglo-Saxon and the Finnish/Russian/Baltic/N.German factions. (so then pretty much all of them ~:) )

Does the Irish&Celts need a different tech-tree from the Anglo-Saxons?

Is it OK if we let the slavic Obodrites&Veletis share Tech-Tree with the Baltic-tribes and later Russian states, or would it be better to regard them as little developed Central European factions?

Where does the Poles fit in?

Remember that we can make quite faction individual Tech-Trees within these groups, but that they will share possible homeregions and castle-types(like how the castles appear in battle).

[wilpuri]

The Balts and the Finnic factions should share the same tech-three, perhaps with Staraya Ladoga and Novgorod. I can't really say about the others.

[Meneldil]

If the game starts about 800 ad, I think the Polish should rather have the european tech-tree, along with the german and the french.

Here's how I see things :

1 - Vikings
2 - Europeans (Franks and Poles)
3 - Russians
4 - Saxons, Angles
5 - Celts (Wales, Pict, Scot and Irish factions)
6 - Finnish, baltic and germanic tribes

I have no knowledge about the last one (all the tribes), so I guess it might not be the best idea.

[PseRamesses]

Viking tech tree: ok.

Anglo tech tree:
Saxon
Mercia
East Anglia
Northumbria

Celtic tech tree:
Welsh
Irish
Scots
Picts

European tech tree:
East Franks
West Franks
Polish

Baltic tech tree:
Obdorites
Veletis
Prussians
(Lithuanians)
Curonians
People of Saaremaa
Karelians

Slavic tech tree:
Staraya Ladoga
Novgorod
(Lithuanians)
Kiev

*I´m not certain how many different tech-trees, cultures and religions we can use in MTW. For C&R isn´t it 4? But this list is for the tech-tree right?

*The suggested split of the English tech tree into a Anglo and Celtic one I feel is essential for the huge differences between theese.

*I´m not certain about Lithuania weather to put it in the Baltic or Slavic folder. The slavic "rus" realm stretched from Staraya Ladoga in the north, Murom in the east, Vladimir in the west and the Black Sea in the south but never "reached" the Baltic coast. So if we put Lithuania as a inland province without sea access I´d put them in the Slavic folder otherwise, with sea access but traditionally the Lithuanians weren´t regarded as a Baltic faction.

*The Poles I think is a hybrid between the European and Slavic folder but I have to lean to a more European one. When it comes to the "Prussians" (bad name, to modern BTW), I know to little to be certain.

*Obdorites and Veletis are to unknown for me to comment on but I "feel" that they are more Baltic than European. Theese facs were EC´s suggestions and he had a lot of intel on them that I think is lost if Norse haven´t got any on them.

[wilpuri]

What do you mean Lithuanians weren't traditionally regarded as a Baltic faction? They were probably the most important Baltic faction, they managed to repel Crusaders and aggressors from all sides for the longest, and they were the last pagan nation of Europe, with Baltic gods.

Also, Prussians were Baltic, and the name is fine, since they were called Prussians. The Germans who moved there after much of the Prussian population had either been destroyed or it had migrated to the east, also took up the name of the previous inhabitants.

[Meneldil]

Indeed Lithuanians were a pagan and baltic (though lithuania was also a part of modern russia) people. I think they should go with the other baltic tribes rather than with the russians cities :).

[PseRamesses]

Hey guys, I´m not talking about ethnic belongings or culture, where Lithuania indeed is a Baltic faction, but about the tech-tree since that was what Norsemans post was about, right?! The Lith have more tech-recemblance with the Slavic Russian states and Poland than the others. Maybee I choose a "bad" name for the tech-group in this area?

[Meneldil]

From what I've read in a book about the teutonic order, pagan lithuania wasn't really looking like a russian state (they sometimes fought with the Mongols against the russians and the europeans) in the XII/XIIIth. When fighting against the teutonic order, lithuanians used to recruit many people from pagan lands (pagan prussians, livonians, estonians and sometimes mongol tribes) for their army.
All what I've said was actually right for the late pagan lithuania, and not for the period of your mod, and, unhappilly, I don't know anything about lithunia during VIII and IXth centuries.

Anyway, do as you wish, since you probably have more knowledge about dark age lithuania than I do ~:)

[PseRamesses]

From what I've read in a book about the teutonic order, pagan lithuania wasn't really looking like a russian state (they sometimes fought with the Mongols against the russians and the europeans) in the XII/XIIIth. When fighting against the teutonic order, lithuanians used to recruit many people from pagan lands (pagan prussians, livonians, estonians and sometimes mongol tribes) for their army.
All what I've said was actually right for the late pagan lithuania, and not for the period of your mod, and, unhappilly, I don't know anything about lithunia during VIII and IXth centuries.

Anyway, do as you wish, since you probably have more knowledge about dark age lithuania than I do ~:)

Meneldil,
I feel we´re not quite understanding eachother. Lith belongs to the Baltic Culture, Pagan Religion and Slavic Tech-tree IMO. I´m no expert either so if someone has relevant information I´m all ears.

[Norseman]

When discussing these tech-tree groups, please keep in mind that we can make quite individual tech-trees within each group. What they will share is:

1) The appearance of the castle in Battle.
I grouped all baltic/finnish/russian factions in one group, as I believe they made the their fortifications look pretty much the same(did they?).

2) Homeregions defined by a resource(maximum #6)
I think we actually have the Angle-Saxons and Celtics in the same group, as they will be fighting for the same homeregions and I presume influenced each other regarding fortifications. We can still make very individual tech-trees to separate them.

The viking tech-trees will actually also be available in England/ireland, as the vikings founded their own communities here. In Eastern and Central Europe the Vikings will adopt the local tech-tree, and become Normans and the Russians.

[Sebastian Seth]

1) The appearance of the castle in Battle.
I grouped all baltic/finnish/russian factions in one group, as I believe they made the their fortifications look pretty much the same(did they?).


- No, put the russians to slavians, baltics to baltics and the finns to swedish.

The viking tech-trees will actually also be available in England/ireland, as the vikings founded their own communities here. In Eastern and Central Europe the Vikings will adopt the local tech-tree, and become Normans and the Russians.

No the english can't use viking units because they are catholics and
they do not have carl classes or the lifestyle that makes vikings
deadly warriors. The viking's who lived abroad didn't spread their
religion or way of life. No catholic country should produce vikings.

Finnish Tribes:

Karelia - Karelians (Karjala - Karjalalaiset)
Tavast - Tavasts (Häme - Hämäläiset)
Sami - Samish (Saame - Saamelaiset)
Kveen - Kveens (Kainuu - Kainuulaiset)
Sum - Sums (Varsinais-Suomi - Varsinais Suomalaiset)

Baltic Tribes:

Estonia - Estonians (includes saarenmaa)
Lithuanian - Lithuanians
Latvonia - Latvonians

- Staraya Ladoga is probalbly Inkeri witch is Karelians
- 19. Obodrites? (Never heard of this???)
- 20. Veletis? (Never heard of this???)
- 13. Curonians (Never heard of this???)

I'll check for more if u need...

Edit: Fixed quote.

[PseRamesses]

The viking tech-trees will actually also be available in England/ireland, as the vikings founded their own communities here. In Eastern and Central Europe the Vikings will adopt the local tech-tree, and become Normans and the Russians.


No the english can't use viking units because they are catholics and they do not have carl classes or the lifestyle that makes vikings deadly warriors. The viking's who lived abroad didn't spread their
religion or way of life. No catholic country should produce vikings.

I do belive SS has a point. Yes, the vikings established their own communities and in places with very low or no cultural influence from others like Iceland, Greenland etc they stayed pretty much the same when it comes to culture etc. But in other regions like Ireland, England, Baltic and in Russia they adopted and was absorbed into that respective society. Their adaptaion abilities was pretty unique and their main focus was trade. To succeed with this you´ll need to blend in.


Finnish Tribes:
Karelia - Karelians (Karjala - Karjalalaiset)
Tavast - Tavasts (Häme - Hämäläiset)
Sami - Samish (Saame - Saamelaiset)
Kveen - Kveens (Kainuu - Kainuulaiset)
Sum - Sums (Varsinais-Suomi - Varsinais Suomalaiset)

Baltic Tribes:
Estonia - Estonians (includes saarenmaa)
Lithuanian - Lithuanians
Latvonia - Latvonians

- Staraya Ladoga is probalbly Inkeri witch is Karelians
- 19. Obodrites? (Never heard of this???)
- 20. Veletis? (Never heard of this???)
- 13. Curonians (Never heard of this???)

SS, the Fury of the Northmen mod is set to the timeframe of 750-1050AD which is probably the reason for you not knowing, or heard of, a couple of tribes. When it comes to the Finnish tribes it has already been agreed upon through extensive research by Wilpurri, Trax, myself and others that we can´t have room for more than one Finnish faction.


I´ll check for more if you need...

Please do. All help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[wilpuri]

Sebastian Seth, if you will look back a few pages, you will see that I and Trax have researched the baltic quite thoroughly, so your information isn't very knew, except for that it is false at some points.

E.G
Viking-age Finland like Sweden?? Closer to Estonia + Baltic. Most cultural influences from Estonia (mass migration from Estonia to Finland). Also, depends largely whether you're talking about Eastern or Western Finland. At the end and after the viking age, Western Finland saw growing scandinavian influence.

Starya Ladoga is an ancient trading city, originally inhabited by Slavic and Finnic tribes, rather like Novgorod.

I still think that Lithuania during this time frame shouldn't differ from the rest of the Baltic tech-tree wise.

[Norseman]

I do belive SS has a point. Yes, the vikings established their own communities and in places with very low or no cultural influence from others like Iceland, Greenland etc they stayed pretty much the same when it comes to culture etc. But in other regions like Ireland, England, Baltic and in Russia they adopted and was absorbed into that respective society. Their adaptaion abilities was pretty unique and their main focus was trade. To succeed with this you´ll need to blend in.


Ok, I'll explain a bit further. In Russia and in Normandie the vikings adopted the local customs and culture, no doubt, and this will be reflected by them using the local tech-tree in Eastern Europe and in Frankland.

However, in England and Ireland the situation was quite different. I base this on 3 sources, and various additional websites.
1) "Blood of the Vikings" by Julian Richards
This book is specifically about the vikings in England/Ireland.
2) "The World of the Vikings" by James Graham-Cambell
A quite big book, with a lot of info on viking daily life.
3) "Heimskringla" by Snorri
The Saga of the Norse Kings.

In England the "Danelaw" in the 9th century established viking communities much like their earlier homes in Scandinavia, pushing out or living side by side with local population. In the rural Danelaw, the Vikings had all power, and most of their viking language, culture and social structure was kept. Exceptions were towns, like York, were the population became very mixed. It was mostly in these towns that the viking trade flowered.

In Ireland the invading viking forces were quite different. Instead of the large organized(well, relatively...) viking army of the Danes that established the Danelaw, Ireland was attacked by several small groups of hardened warriors each under a petty norse warrior king. These kings were in many cases not welcome in their homeland, or were simply looking for plunder, and often fought amongst themselves. They established several trading towns(like Dublin, Limerick etc.), but were never strong enough to gain much rural land surrounding these.

What I have in mind is actually not to let the Vikings use their standard tech-tree in these areas, but a somewhat english-influenced version of it, especially when it comes to trade and towns.

There are mainly 2 ways of separating the tech-trees in the Build_prod.txt file.
1) Using a resource(renaming "SALT" to "English Homeland") in the same manner as limiting Mines. The income is determined by a separate input.
2) The faction name, like FN_DANES. One can in addition also make use of the culture(like PAGAN)

So, for example we can make two(or more, as needed for Celtics, Irish etc.) tech-trees making use of the English "homeregion resource". One for the English and one for the Vikings, that is quite similar to the viking homeland tech-tree. We can still train the viking units, because a unit can have several different building-requirements.

Some additional buildings I have in mind for the Viking-in-England Tech-tree is a "Viking community" building that one is required to build to make available all following viking buildings. This will make sure the vikings will need extra time to establish themselves in a non-viking homeregion.

Furthermore, to encourage trade, I think the english viking towns should be able to build more valuable tradebuildings than homeland vikings.

[PseRamesses]

Ok, I'll explain a bit further. In Russia and in Normandie the vikings adopted the local customs and culture, no doubt, and this will be reflected by them using the local tech-tree in Eastern Europe and in Frankland.
Yup, that was what I were trying to say.


However, in England and Ireland the situation was quite different. I base this on 3 sources, and various additional websites.
1) "Blood of the Vikings" by Julian Richards
This book is specifically about the vikings in England/Ireland.
2) "The World of the Vikings" by James Graham-Cambell
A quite big book, with a lot of info on viking daily life.
3) "Heimskringla" by Snorri
The Saga of the Norse Kings.

In England the "Danelaw" in the 9th century established viking communities much like their earlier homes in Scandinavia, pushing out or living side by side with local population. In the rural Danelaw, the Vikings had all power, and most of their viking language, culture and social structure was kept. Exceptions were towns, like York, were the population became very mixed. It was mostly in these towns that the viking trade flowered.
I´ve no problem with this. Wasn´t really that informed about the Danelaws impact on society. Since I´m swedish my main history focus is aimed at the swedes, sorry!


In Ireland the invading viking forces were quite different. Instead of the large organized(well, relatively...) viking army of the Danes that established the Danelaw, Ireland was attacked by several small groups of hardened warriors each under a petty norse warrior king. These kings were in many cases not welcome in their homeland, or were simply looking for plunder, and often fought amongst themselves. They established several trading towns(like Dublin, Limerick etc.), but were never strong enough to gain much rural land surrounding these.
What I have in mind is actually not to let the Vikings use their standard tech-tree in these areas, but a somewhat english-influenced version of it, especially when it comes to trade and towns.
Great!


There are mainly 2 ways of separating the tech-trees in the Build_prod.txt file.
1) Using a resource(renaming "SALT" to "English Homeland") in the same manner as limiting Mines. The income is determined by a separate input.
2) The faction name, like FN_DANES. One can in addition also make use of the culture(like PAGAN)
So, for example we can make two(or more, as needed for Celtics, Irish etc.) tech-trees making use of the English "homeregion resource". One for the English and one for the Vikings, that is quite similar to the viking homeland tech-tree. We can still train the viking units, because a unit can have several different building-requirements.
That´s outstanding Norse. Talk about ethnic blend, almost ultra realistic for this time-frame.


Some additional buildings I have in mind for the Viking-in-England Tech-tree is a "Viking community" building that one is required to build to make available all following viking buildings. This will make sure the vikings will need extra time to establish themselves in a non-viking homeregion.
Why not make it a "king´s hall/ court of law" kind of building?


Furthermore, to encourage trade, I think the english viking towns should be able to build more valuable tradebuildings than homeland vikings.
Agree.

@Wilpurri,
If you feel that the Lithuanians belongs to the Baltic tech-tree (not the Slavic one) as well as the Baltic culture group I submit to your will. No big deal. Accuracy is more important and you´ve been right on so many other things when it comes to the Baltics and the Finns.

[Sebastian Seth]

Sebastian Seth, if you will look back a few pages, you will see that I and Trax have researched the baltic quite thoroughly, so your information isn't very knew, except for that it is false at some points.

E.G
Viking-age Finland like Sweden?? Closer to Estonia + Baltic. Most cultural influences from Estonia (mass migration from Estonia to Finland). Also, depends largely whether you're talking about Eastern or Western Finland. At the end and after the viking age, Western Finland saw growing scandinavian influence.

Starya Ladoga is an ancient trading city, originally inhabited by Slavic and Finnic tribes, rather like Novgorod.

I still think that Lithuania during this time frame shouldn't differ from the rest of the Baltic tech-tree wise.

Yes, the baltic area is not really that familiar to me but the finnish
part is dead right. Finland had about 4 areas populated and their
technology was mostly from viking and germanic traiders. It was
later in 1042 than novogrod conquered karelia and the karelians
started adapting russian culture. 1050 Swedish King Edmuns
son attacked to finland (but not against karelians). 1123 russian
leaders son Vsevolov attacked Jems (not karellians). 1142 Karelians
attacked Jems. 1149 Jems attacked whit 1000 men to Vatjala but
the novgorod destroys them. 1186 Novgorod attacks Jems. 1191
Novgorot & Karelia attacks against jems. 1202 Danish attack finland.
1228 Jems attack whit 2000 men to Ladoga against novgorod and lose.

There was also documents about swedish troops in finland helping the
Sums and Jems against novogrod.

This goes on and on. What I'm trying to say is that the karelia was
not even 1/3 of finland and karelians where influenced by novogrod
later than you think. If you use only on finnish tribe it should be
the sums or jems. These are the biggest, Wary and most Finnish tribes.

And the people of laatokka are almoust the same people as karelians.
They are what we call Inkeriläiset. and they lived and still do, around
ladoga lake. They were minority.

Edit: Fixed spelling.

[Sebastian Seth]

[QUOTE=Norseman]
What I have in mind is actually not to let the Vikings use their standard tech-tree in these areas, but a somewhat english-influenced version of it, especially when it comes to trade and towns.
QUOTE]

This sounds good, but the communities were probably not big enough
to build Huscarles or Viking Cavarly... So that leaves the Carls.

I think the vikings didn't convert the people to their religion. And
the religion is the key to creating viking warriors.

[PseRamesses]

Yes, the baltic area is not really that familiar to me but the finnish
part is dead right. Finland had about 4 areas populated and their
technology was mostly from viking and germanic traiders. It was
later in 1042 than novogrod conquered karelia and the karelians
started adapting russian culture. 1050 Swedish King Edmuns
son attacked to finland (but not against karelians). 1123 russian
leaders son Vsevolov attacked Jems (not karellians). 1142 Karelians
attacked Jems. 1149 Jems attacked whit 1000 men to Vatjala but
the novgorod destroys them. 1186 Novgorod attacks Jems. 1191
Novgorot & Karelia attacks against jems. 1202 Danish attack finland.
1228 Jems attack whit 2000 men to Ladoga against novgorod and lose.
SS, you keep informing us about event outside of the timeframe of this mod which is 750-1050ad. Give us facts from this timeperiod. No one is questioning your intel but a huge amount of research has been done and the facts you supply us with has been totally missed. Please give sources like links, books etc so we can dig into this. It´s important for us since the historical accuracy of this mod is one of the cornerstones.


This goes on and on. What I'm trying to say is that the karelia was not even 1/3 of finland and karelians where influenced by novogrod later than you think. If you use only on finnish tribe it should be
the sums or jems. These are the biggest, Wary and most Finnish tribes.
And the people of latokka are almoust the same people as karelians.
They are what we call Inkeriläiset. and they lived and still do, around
ladoga lake. They were minority.


So you argue that during this period the Sums and Jems where the dominant Finnish tribes and the Karelian, like Latokka, was a minority? I think I can speak for the whole crew when I say that it really doesn´t matter to any one of us which faction that we choose in Finland as long as it´s the most dominant one between 750-1050ad. Can you produce more intel and facts on this?

Regarding the producing capabilities of hard-core viking units in non-homelands provinces, like England, I personally don´t like it. Lighter viking units ok but not units like Joms, berserkers etc.

[Norseman]

I think the vikings didn't convert the people to their religion. And
the religion is the key to creating viking warriors.


I believe you are pretty much correct when you say the vikings didn't convert locals. However as a consequence of the population pressure and the barren land in the viking regions, large numbers of vikings emigrated and created new viking communities in the Danelaw area. Remnants of these viking villages has been found on several locations by archaeologists. Findings suggest that these rural communities either pushed the locals out or lived side by side, with only modest mixing. So instead of converting the locals you push them out and replace them with your own. Of course, this takes time, and will be reflected in the buildtime of the viking buildings in their British isles tech-tree.


This sounds good, but the communities were probably not big enough to build Huscarles or Viking Cavarly... So that leaves the Carls.


The vikings of Danelaw was beaten by the Anglo-Saxons, and the viking villages was mostly taken over or abandoned. However, if they had managed to hold on to the landgrabs and further developed their communities, why should they not be able to train more advanced units? We are after all rewriting history in this game ~;)


Why not make it a "king´s hall/ court of law" kind of building?

Hehe, this one is already used! ~:) Historically, the first thing that was built was usually some sort of fortification. Later a farming community was founded. Anyway, for now it doesn't really matter what the building is as long as it is the plans and slows down the viking expansion.

[Norseman]

Regarding the producing capabilities of hard-core viking units in non-homelands provinces, like England, I personally don´t like it. Lighter viking units ok but not units like Joms, berserkers etc.


The vikings of Danelaw was beaten by the Anglo-Saxons, and the viking villages was mostly taken over or abandoned. However, if they had managed to hold on to the landgrabs and further developed their communities, why should they not be able to train more advanced units? We are after all rewriting history in this game

PseR, you can relax m8. The Jomsvikings will only be available to the Danes and trainable in one region, as their fort, the Jomsborg, will be a UNIQUE building. I should also add that Jomsvikings will not be as tough as they were in the original VI.

I've found one battle described quite extensively in "the Saga of the Norse Kings", in which the Norse King faced of with a Danish army of just Jomsvikings. The Norse was taken by suprise but won, although their army consisted of only locals and a group of the kings Huscarles. So undoubtly the Jomsvikings were brave warriors, but hardly as good as in the original VI.

I agree on the Berserkers, they will be limited to viking homeregions. However, I see no reason why not a viking faction should be able to "move" to England and still be able to field a good army. So all other units I think should be available. Remember that the Kings Royal Huscarles will only be trainable in one region as well, as the Kings Main Hall will be a UNIQUE building.

The way I see it, a viking faction settling in England should have the following dis-/advantages:
-Better economy, with good trading towns and better farmland.
-Slightly less unit choises, however all basic viking units should be available. See above txt.
-Longer construction times, to slow down their expansion.

[PseRamesses]

PseR, you can relax m8. The Jomsvikings will only be available to the Danes and trainable in one region, as their fort, the Jomsborg, will be a UNIQUE building. I should also add that Jomsvikings will not be as tough as they were in the original VI.

I've found one battle described quite extensively in "the Saga of the Norse Kings", in which the Norse King faced of with a Danish army of just Jomsvikings. The Norse was taken by suprise but won, although their army consisted of only locals and a group of the kings Huscarles. So undoubtly the Jomsvikings were brave warriors, but hardly as good as in the original VI.

I agree on the Berserkers, they will be limited to viking homeregions. However, I see no reason why not a viking faction should be able to "move" to England and still be able to field a good army. So all other units I think should be available. Remember that the Kings Royal Huscarles will only be trainable in one region as well, as the Kings Main Hall will be a UNIQUE building.

The way I see it, a viking faction settling in England should have the following dis-/advantages:
-Better economy, with good trading towns and better farmland.
-Slightly less unit choises, however all basic viking units should be available. See above txt.
-Longer construction times, to slow down their expansion.

Good, I can live with this. Solid reasoning m8!

[Sebastian Seth]

I could give you the web addresses I find but you could not read them.
This is because it's finnish history written in finnish. The facts are
basicly collected from documents in russian and swedish, and there
is some little parts in latin and hebrew. I understand that the time frame
of your mod is before these times. But it is unlikely to find anything
written from that periot since finnish people didn't write at that time.
The finnish were pagans and the religion was different from vikings.
Therefore what I do is cross reference the swedish translations,
finnish folklore, russian translations and modern day finnish. It's
all so easy to count back from the era of the mod when theres
writings about 1000 and 2000 men attacking to novgorod. These
are not small tribes that can collect so big armies. And the time
of attack is AFTER novgorod invaded karelia. Surely you find more
documents about karelians and inkeri traiding cities because
they were near nations that were writing at the time.

On a second note the modern day finnish are still talking about
different areas whit the old tribe names;

county - people - in english - in swedish
Häme - Hämäläinen, Jäämi - Jems - people of tavast (tavasthus)
Pohjanmaa, Kuopio - pohjalainen - Kveen - ?
Karjala - Karjalainen - Karelian - ?
Saame - Saamelainen - Samish -?

All of these plases still exist and they have their unique personalities,
dialects and living areas. The finnish didn't just pop out of somewhere
when the sweedish came. They where here where they still are. The
oldest found finish living plase is from 8600 - 8200 bc. And theres
lots of iron age foundings in finland. The genes tell
us that we are not identical to karelians or saamish.

And yes I'm telling you that; if theres gonna be only one major playable
faction in finland. It should not be karelians.

I'm sorry for the long mails all the time. I don't mean to tell you what to
do. I was going to do Mod named Skandinavian TW, but the project
is on pause (mayby forever). It would have been from east england
to west russia to baltic. Thats why I have high hopes for finnish
in your Mod. And I do understand that from swedish point of view
finland isn't looking that indresting, but in the finnish point of view the
swedish, novgord, vikings, germans and danes are the turning points
of finnish history and the wars they had on this area is damn intresting.

Some Links: (moustly in finnish. not must use to u i guess)

Finnish History:
http://www.suomalaisuudenliitto.fi/Suomen-historia.htm#1 (finnish)
http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/suomenhistoria/historia/alku.htm (finnish)
http://www.turku.fi/kesvi/historia/esihistoria.htm (finnish)
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/ (english, not the right period)
http://people.cc.jyu.fi/~jonmak/Finland.html (English)
http://www.ugri.net/002/htm/index.htm (finnish - Finno-Ugric language
talkers - - list - modern day)
http://www.hameenliitto.fi/tiedostot/muinaisj_aika.jpg (häme, Jams or Jems)
http://www.kolumbus.fi/rastas/sec/muu_karj.html#kainuu (Finnish- Kvenland)

Inkeri (Straya Ladoga)
http://www.inkeri.com/ (Finnish)
http://www.unpo.org/member.php?arg=26 (English, map of area)

key words in google: suomen historia, inkeri, karjalan historia

i don't really have a link list. these can be found from google whit
the key words above.

Once again sorry for long mails, you do as you want... mayby just put
the finnish tribes as rebels. btw I can help whit the finnish names.

Good luck whit the mod whit or whitout finnish.

[PseRamesses]

I could give you the web addresses I find but you could not read them. This is because it's finnish history written in finnish. The facts are basicly collected from documents in russian and swedish, and there
is some little parts in latin and hebrew. I understand that the time frame
of your mod is before these times. But it is unlikely to find anything
written from that periot since finnish people didn't write at that time.
That´s why we need someone like you to go through this and translate it, if you want to be able to argue a change in factions. Wilpuri is also from Finland and with the help of Trax from Estonia they have come to the conclusion that the Karelians were the strongest and best candidate for a Finnish faction.


And yes I'm telling you that; if theres gonna be only one major playable faction in finland. It should not be karelians.
Define why! I still haven´t read any hard evidence why not.


I'm sorry for the long mails all the time. I don't mean to tell you what to do.
Ofcourse you can tell us what we should do, that´s your perrogative, especially if we´re wrong in some way. It´s important that we get this part right for reasons - se below.


Thats why I have high hopes for finnish in your Mod. And I do understand that from swedish point of view finland isn't looking that indresting, but in the finnish point of view the swedish, novgord, vikings, germans and danes are the turning points of finnish history and the wars they had on this area is damn intresting.
One Finnish faction is a MUST in this mod atleast so we swedes can kick your ass again, he he... just kidding. No, seriously, everyone is bent on having the Finns in this mod and I´m the only Swede in this crew with the rest of the guys from Norway, Denmark, Finland, Estonia, England etc. So come on SS, give us facts, something solid, so we can compare and make a decision that will portray the "Finns" the best way we can in this mod. Thanks in advance! PS. No post is too long ;) DS.

[Sebastian Seth]

Map of modern finland for place refenrences:
http://personal.inet.fi/atk/pehkonen/kuvat/suomik.JPG

Map of karellia for references:
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/karjala2.html

A document written in finnish:
http://www.suomalaisuudenliitto.fi/Suomen-historia.htm#1

Translations: (my comments starts with SS:)

About 8600 BC "Mesolistic stone age"
People arrive from south-west, south and south-east. Archaeologists,
genelogists and some linguistics think that these people came from
East-, Center- and East-Europe.

SS: Emigration from Europe.

About 5000 BC "Early comp ceramics"
First clay pottery.

About 4000 BC "Typical comb ceramics"
By this time the pre-finnish speaking people have lived in Finland.

About 2800 BC "Hammer-axe culture"
Oldest baltic loan words. Probably new people from baltics moved
and mixed whit local people. Finnish and shamish language started to
became different.

SS: Emmigration from Estonia.

About 2000 BC "Kiukkas culture"
Dairy farming. Farming at the end of period.

About 1600 BC "Bronze era"
Some germanic influences in western finland. From east volga some people
using textile-ceramics arive in Finland.

SS: Emigration from Russia.

About 400 BC "Pre-Roman era"
Herodus writes about "pohjanperät" (translates to nothernend).

About 800 BC
Shamish people are spreading all the way to middle skandinavia.

SS: Emigration from Lapland.

About 0 "Older Roman era"
Iron tools are spreading to finnish coast. Strong estonian influence in
tools and stuff. More people arraving from estonia. Germanic
influences on southwest coast.

SS: Emigration from Estonia. Trading with Germanic people.

SS: Ok, It's year 1 AD and there is nothing else then people coming in.
Nothing in karelia, but there's trade on other side of finland.
This is the place where Sums live. I am pretty sure that the
germanic traiders did'nt come to finland to look for people
in the forrest. There must have been villages or some trading
place. And that would be first sign of civilized finns.

About 200 BC "Younger Roman era"
Iron tools are spreding to inland (to Häme)

SS: Ok, This means theres population, trading and villages in Häme.
This is the area where Jams live. 8800 years and still nothing saying
that karelia would be more than path to finland.

About 400 BC "Migration of People"
"Etelä-Pohjanmaa" is clearly the richest province in finland.

SS: If you look at the map link on top of this "pohjanmaa" is around "oulu".
And for the record it is no where near karelia. So at this point
there is villages all over coast and Jam villages in inland.
These are the areas Sums and Jams live.

About 551 BC
Jordanes mentions finni and skrerefenni.

SS: finni = finnish. skrerefenni = skiing finnish = Samish.

About 600 BC "Merovinki era"
Strong population growth. Strong social and economical advancing.

[Sebastian Seth]

Strong influences from germany (animalornamets and numerous objects).
Middle European styled graves in Eura. Moust likely german emigration.

SS: Emigration from germany.

SS: Eura is in the South-west coast where Sums live. That means
more germanic people to that area.

About 800 BC "Viking era"
The western finnish population spreads to karelia. Etelä-Pohjanmaa
findings almoust stops. Swedish birka is destroyed. Alfred the great
publishes "Orosius world history" witch includes Ottarius description about
Kveens who where blundering norway. Tjodolf Hvinil in Ynglingatal writes
Fornjotr-stories, Witch tells about Kveens and Kveen kings.

About 1000 BC
Crusades start. Kristianity Spreats to south-west finland and häme at the
same time. kajaani is strongly kristian. The whole western finland and
"pohjanmaa" is using same kind of tools and have same kind of culture.
Karelia is bending to eastern culture......................

SS: Ok, there's more but i'm tired the bottom line was that the other
tribes have similarities in their culture and karelia is having similarities
with slavic cultures.

1042 BC
Grand Prince Jaroslavins son Vladimir the prince of Novgorod attacks
against Jams. By this time karelia was invaded and karelia started to forming
to seperate culture from western finland.

SS: This is the most vital point that i'm trying to make. The karelians
where an outpost of the finnish population and got invaded. Is
there any point making them the dominat faction in finland when
clearly they where nothing more than villages that novgorod
dictated. After this there's markings that they attacked finland
and lost two ships and fleed. The part of finland
(Sums, Jems, Kveens, etc) stood up many attacks from novgorod,
one from danes. It was until 1229 when Jarl Birger Conquered finland
and this was not karelia this was the coast and Häme.

About Mid 1000 BC
Swedish King Edmunds son Anund attacks finland but finnish poison the
water supply and his army is destroyed.

SS: In here the finnish are mentionet as finnish and after this
as Jams or finnish. It tells that there was either dominant
finnish tribe Jams or united finnish tribes.

The rest is out of your mods timescale if i remember right.
It was 800 - 1050 was it?

SS: I'm questioning your study of finland history. I think that you have
found more written things about karelians than the other tribes and
somehow came to that conclusion that the carelians where the
major influence. But I am saying that the karelians where the
most influenced of the finnish tribes. History is not what is written
it's what hapened an was. It's crazy idea that people who had
lived in the country for 9000 live in couple of villages weak enough
to be viped out just like that. No, Finland is full of forrests and
depented on hunting and fishing. So they know how to use spears
and bows. The forrests give huge advantage when defending.
It was many attacks from novgorod, denmark and sweden
that exhausted the finns.

It's all so clear that finland was the target of multible emigrations.
This tells me that there was growing population and something that
tempted people to move in. Mayby it was protection, job and food.
What other reasons would there be? This tells that there where
lots of more finnish than the books or web sites tell you. And
yes I do think that karelians where minor factor.

The shamish didn't move north because somebody
asked them to do so. They moved out of the way when they saw
finnish people coming in large numbers.

There's all so documents about swedish and danish forces helping
the Sums and Jams attack against Novgorod. And if you think
this would been advantage to swedish and danish if the finnish
would exhaust novogrod in war constantly.

Well it's now 2:12 and I'm tired of writing and I don't want to translate
finnish to english cause english has to little words and I have to think
in ways I'm not used to. In finnish the words are written as they are
sayed, in english its a mess that you have to memorize. So I'll Stop.

[Sebastian Seth]

Back in the subject of finnish tech tree:

Dear wilpurri

When I said that the finns should belong to swedish tech tree rather
than slavic or baltic I was talking about the real finns not karelians.
As you see abowe theres some events that prove you're right when
you say karelians should belong to baltic or slavic tech tree. And
Yes I'm aware of the baltic emigrations but theres no knowledge
that says that these emigrations changed the finnish way of war.
Yes, they did came to finland but did it change the way of majority
of finnish do things. I think not, the idea of swedish tech tree is
because the swedish vikings had recruited finns for their blundering
attacks and there isn't finnish or germanic tech tree. Al so finnish
did build ships and had paganic mentality, so some kind of viking
legacy should show on the tech. On the other case it should all so
include some germanic traditions. This is a tricky one but I think
the swedish would be best because its a wery near influence and
the "länsigootit" and "itägootit" will use the same tree and they should
have germanic influences too. And If you look at the names finns
had at that time and later they are mostly vikings, swedish and place names.

Crossreferencing is the key.

[PseRamesses]

@SS,
Splendid work, thanks a mill!

Just one thought crew; How historically accurate would it be to have the Sums or Jems as the "Finnish" faction and have the Karelians as a two province faction holding Staraya Ladoga/ Inkeri thus taking this faction out of the equation?

[wilpuri]

You can't use suomalaisuudenliitto as a source for accurate history. Those people are sick, and all their material is politically motivated to the extreme.
Also, the Finnish way of war was different from the scandinavian way of war, because finns did not wear much metal armour, and i remember reading that not a single metal helmet has been found in finland, let alone chainmail. That is why I think the Finns are closer to the pagan baltics (even the religions are quite close, with many baltic gods also as finnsih gods). Also the balts used the Viking style ship, "uisko" as we know it Finnish.

I'm certainly open to compromise, and I think we should cooperate on this instead of argue blindly on the behalf of what we have learned to be true, but I will disregard anything and everything from suomalaisuudenliitto.

Have you read my previous posts?

[Sebastian Seth]

@SS,
Splendid work, thanks a mill!

Just one thought crew; How historically accurate would it be to have the Sums or Jems as the "Finnish" faction and have the Karelians as a two province faction holding Staraya Ladoga/ Inkeri thus taking this faction out of the equation?

This sounds good. When you look at the time period of the mod
you can see that that the time is more or less the exact time that
the karelians adapted slavic influences from people of novgorod.
And it does seperate the the other finnish tribes from karelians and
this is good because you can use different tech tree for them.
And it would make us finnish happy with two factions.

The other problem is how to name the Sums, Jems, Kveens, etc
As finnish call ourself Suomalaiset and we live in Suomi. I'm not
sure about this but it sounds like Sums a lot. When you say in
finnish that you are a Sum you say "Sumilainen" and when your
home country is Sum You say "Sumi". Ok, theres one letter change
and the name probalby came from swedish who were in contact
with the sums who lived in coast. And the Jems really comes from
the word "jäämi". In finnish its "hämäläinen" who live in häme. And
"kveens" is swedish name for the people of Kvenland. So the most
advanced where the Sums. And there might be that the novgorod
called all the western finns as Jams and the sweedish called them
as Sums. And because this mod is about the Svea Viking conquest.
I think that we should call the tribes whit the same common name
we call them today: Suomalainen from Suomi : But of course english
doesnt allow this, we are forced to use: People of Suomi : This sounds
stupid, so if anyone have better idea, please come forward.

This is how I would see it:

FACTION: - TECH TREE: - CULTURE:
Finnish - Swedish or German - Paganic (Catholic)
Karelians - Baltic or Slavic - Paganic (Ordodox)

Provinces of Finland:
Ahvenanmaa (or Öland)

1. Catania (west coast)
2. Finlandia (west-south coast)
3. Nylandia (south coast)
4. North Karelia (east finland inland)
5. South Karelia (south-east coast)
6. Tavastia (south-west inland)
7. Ingria (south-east half of ladoga and little of estonia)
8. Alandia (Island in south-west of finland)
9. Laplandia (North of finland)

What to you think?

[wilpuri]

SS, I will provide you with some of the sources I have found helpful:
http://www.taivaansusi.net/historia/baltia.html
http://www.taivaansusi.net/historia/mielivalta.html

I am willing to compromise like you said earlier, but you have to convince me :)

from


800 - 900-luvulla Euroopan levottomuudet olivat lähtöisin pohjoismaista: viikingit seikkailivat ja ryöstivät jos kohta kävivät rauhanomaista kauppaakin niin lännessä kuin idässäkin. Vaikka suomalaiset eivät varustaneetkaan ryöstö- tai kaupparetkikuntia viikinkien tapaan, heitä on osallistunut ruotsalaisten mukana retkiin; suomalaiset ovat voineet järjestää vanhojen idänsuhteidensa ja kielitaitonsa ansiosta hyviä kauppasuhteita viikingeille ainakin Laatokan seudulla ja muilla suomensukuisten kansojen alueilla.

Jos totta puhutaan, nii syy miksi valitsin Karjalan ykkösvaihtoehdoksi on se, että siitä tuli puoli-valtiollinen alue, joka oli Novgorodin liittolainen, ei suoranaisesti Novgorodin valtaama alue. Luulin myös alunperin, että tämä modi ulottuisi myös "Baltian viikinkikaudelle", jolloin itämerensuomalaiset kansat ja Balttiset kansat tekivät ryöstretkiä skandinaviaan, esim. Sigtunaan.
Aluksi ehdotin kahta aikakautta: 600-900 ja 900-1200 (suurinpiirtein) ja että aikaisemmalla aikakaudella hämäläiset olisivat suomen "pelattava" heimo, ja että myöhemmällä aika kaudella taas karjalaiset... Löysin myös paljon tietoa joka viittasi siihen, että karjalalainen valtio alkoi muodostua 1000 luvusta lähtien, mutta oli puun ja kuoren välissä, kahden kilpailevan alueellisen suurmahdin pelikenttänä.

[wilpuri]

Viime vuosituhannen alussa kiinteää asutusta oli kolmella alueella. Vuoksen alajuoksun karjalaiset, hämäläiset Päijänteen ja Kokemäen vesistön alueella ja Lounais-Suomen rannikolla varsinaiset suomalaiset olivat 3 vanhinta suomalaista heimoa. Muun Suomen asuttaminen alkoi vähitellen 1100-luvullta lähtien. Kiinteän asutuksen alue oli tuolloin pieni, mutta eränkäynti ulottui lähes koko Suomen sisämaahan. Peltojen viljely levisi viikinkien aikaan Varsinais-Suomeen. Riimukivistä on saatu tietoa norjalaisten ja ruotsalaisten tekemistä viikinkiretkistä Hämeeseen 1000 -luvulla. Hyökkäykset yleensä epäonnistuivat. Novgorod osoitti myös mielenkiintoa alueensa laajentamiseen ja uusien kauppa-asemien perustamiseen. Vuonna 1042 Vladimir teki retken Hämeeseen. Noihin aikoihin karjalaisilla oli yhteistyötä novgorodilaisten kanssa. Sata vuotta myöhemmin hämäläiset menivät Novgorodin kronikan mukaan sotimaan alueelle ja ruotsalaisten kerrotaan hyökänneen Novgorodiin matkalla olleiden laivojen kimppuun. Karjalaiset tekivät kostoretken Hämeeseen vuonna 1143 ja hämäläiset hyökkäsivät itään kuusi vuotta myöhemmin.

I once talked to a fellow, who has had finnish hostory as a hobby for roughly 20 years, and he has been on several archaeological digs himself. He told me that the Western Finns raided the Eastern Finns and vice versa quite regularily, and that the occupation of Sweden and Novgorod most likely started out as alliances. As the above source (one you yourself pointed me to) seems to confirm this. Why were the Häme/Jems more important than the Karelians?


EDIT: By the way, how far are we with this mod at the moment? Is the map ready?

[Sebastian Seth]

You can't use suomalaisuudenliitto as a source for accurate history. Those people are sick, and all their material is politically motivated to the extreme.
Also, the Finnish way of war was different from the scandinavian way of war, because finns did not wear much metal armour, and i remember reading that not a single metal helmet has been found in finland, let alone chainmail. That is why I think the Finns are closer to the pagan baltics (even the religions are quite close, with many baltic gods also as finnsih gods). Also the balts used the Viking style ship, "uisko" as we know it Finnish.

I'm certainly open to compromise, and I think we should cooperate on this instead of argue blindly on the behalf of what we have learned to be true, but I will disregard anything and everything from suomalaisuudenliitto.

Have you read my previous posts?

It's not anly in suomalaisuudenliitto it was just the first web site that came
up in google. Are you still saying that all the finnish lived in karelia? Way
I see it the two factions are a compromise since the karelia was finnish
province before it got lost to novgorod. You should be avare of the
5 000 000 milj. finns by now. Where did they came from? sweden? karelia?
Why people in häme are called hämäläinen? Why are finns called finns instead
of karelians? Sums to Suomalaiset ring a bell? Theres no writings of finns
of that time because there was only pagan finns in the area. This is
compromise two factions finns & carelians. right?

No I haven't read all your mails yet. The ones I read about käräjät soundet
good and so does your knowledge about the units weapons etc. The reason
I'm pressing on about the swedish tech is because I wouldn't want the
finns to be mixed up whit slavics or balts. you have studiet mainly about
karelians who where more to east culture than western finland. I know
it aint exacly right to put finns to swedes tech tree but it aint exacly right
to put them to baltic either unless you make some differences.

--> As I'm writing this I don't know what will the tech trees look like, so
don't take my saings too seriously. I'm just respondic to words;
Baltic, slavic and swedish.

Dont wanna argue but you aint giving me much space to do anything else.
If I say something someone says the study is allready done. And still there
are no finns in finland. I trust the units are done right. It's the factions
and provinces that I'm worried about. I will read the rest of your mails
when i find time. Ok?

[wilpuri]

It's not anly in suomalaisuudenliitto it was just the first web site that came
up in google. Are you still saying that all the finnish lived in karelia? Way
I see it the two factions are a compromise since the karelia was finnish
province before it got lost to novgorod. You should be avare of the
5 000 000 milj. finns by now. Where did they came from? sweden? karelia?
Why people in häme are called hämäläinen? Why are finns called finns instead
of karelians? Sums to Suomalaiset ring a bell? Theres no writings of finns
of that time because there was only pagan finns in the area. This is
compromise two factions finns & carelians. right?

I did not claim there were no Finns in Finland, and I'm quite worried about your reading skills. As has been stated several times before, there simply is room for only one playable finnish faction! I chose the Karelians, because most of the research I conducted revealed that the Karelians were the most powerful and politically unified faction at the time, however, much of my research was outside the time frame, and hence I am also having second thoughts.


käräjät soundet
good and so does your knowledge about the units weapons etc. The reason
I'm pressing on about the swedish tech is because I wouldn't want the
finns to be mixed up whit slavics or balts. you have studiet mainly about
karelians who where more to east culture than western finland. I know
it aint exacly right to put finns to swedes tech tree but it aint exacly right
to put them to baltic either unless you make some differences.


many of the western finns were actually from estonia, as the people emigrated, and their culture + tech is definately closer to Estonia and the rest of the Baltics than Sweden. Karelia had eastern influences, but was still mainly Finnish in culture. Only after Christianity becomes the faith of the majority, do the real differences in culture emrge (eastern xdom vs western xdom).


Dont wanna argue but you aint giving me much space to do anything else.
If I say something someone says the study is allready done. And still there
are no finns in finland. I trust the units are done right. It's the factions
and provinces that I'm worried about. I will read the rest of your mails
when i find time. Ok?

There are definately finns in the rest of Finland, if you had read some of my posts, you would know that. I have studied and researched quite a bit for this mod.. But as you've said earlier, sources are rare, and good guesses at best. However, I arrived at my conclusion thanks to my research.

[Sebastian Seth]

Ok, I just read your last posts and I see you got the roughly the same
intel as I do. Sorry about the last mail I was little
angry (gene that kveens & Jams have).

No jokatapauksessa kaks suomalaista heimoa on musta hyvä juttu. Ja
mä oon tyytyväinen siihen. Vaikka karjala onkin paljon puhuttu paikka
ni se ei ehkä siltikään oo hyvä yksistään edustamaan suomee. Joo
argeologi kaveris on varmasti oikeessa kun sanoo että karjala ja
häme soti keskenään. Kun tossa kattelina argeologian löytöjä
niin siellä tuli kainuulaisillakin katkoja ettei löytyny esineitä, mikä
saattaa viitata siihen että kaikki heimot sotivat keskenään.
Suomalaiset pystyy tappeleen alueista kahden baaripöydän välissä
niin miksei ympäri lääniä. Sekään ei varsinaisesti ole oikein että
heimot yhdistetään yhdeksi, mutta se varmaan on annettava olla.
oikeesti karjalaiset kuulu suomeen ihan samalla tavalla kun muut
heimot mutta ehkä se on kirjaromanttisempi sen takia että ne
kävi kauppaa ja novgorod vei ne.

Mutta yhteistyötä tästä eteenpäin. ~:)
But cooperations from now on. ~:)

[Sebastian Seth]

@SS,
Splendid work, thanks a mill!

Just one thought crew; How historically accurate would it be to have the Sums or Jems as the "Finnish" faction and have the Karelians as a two province faction holding Staraya Ladoga/ Inkeri thus taking this faction out of the equation?

I'm reading fine. This says two factions, right?

[wilpuri]

I'm reading fine. This says two factions, right?

That's new info to me, since so far we've only talked about one faction. And the bit I was worried about was that you thought I had claimed that there was nothing in the rest of Finland. Vähän rupes keittään ku oon kuitenki tunteja tähän hommaan laittanu, eli anteeksi purkaukseni. Ja jotta myös skandinaaviset (lätkätaidottomat, se nähtiin taas) barbaari-naapurimme ymmärtävät ase-levon syntyneen, haluaisin sanoa: skål på den saken.
~:cheers:

[PseRamesses]

Hey guys, could we cool things down a bit?! Hard facts from this period and part of the world is very illusive and hard to come by but that´s what we have to work with.

*Fistly, what´s "suomalaisuudenliitto" and what do they stand for? I´d like to know the reason why Wilpurri, normally a calm guy, is getting worked up about. Are they nationalists or what?
*Secondly SS, it will take some convincing to rip up all the work that has gone into this by the crew so bare with us. When we debate we debate but don´t argue, ok!
*Thirdly, we´ll dismiss all posts in Finnish. Stick to english, that we all can understand, ok!

IMHO the Finns shouldn´t be in the Swedish/ viking tech group for pretty much the same reason that Wilpuri mentioned. Either they go in the Baltic or the Slavic folder. They shouldn´t even be in the same cultural group as the Swedes and defenitely not in the same religious group.
If, and I say if, we choose to add a Finnish faction other than the Karelians which one should it be? Sums or Jems? Which faction should we then take away? Staraya Ladoga or any other?

@SS,
I stongly suggests that, if you want to take part in this discussion, read the whole FotN-thread. It will only take you some 30 minutes and you´ll be pretty much up to date with the rest of us.

[PseRamesses]

I'm reading fine. This says two factions, right?

No I´m not saying that. Read my previous post. This a common decision since I´m not the soverign ruler of this realm. The only ruler in the FotN-realm is historical accuracy and portraying the viking world in the best way this game will allow us to do. It´s a team-effort and a joint-venture over the Scandinavian boundries.... the Kalmar-union all over again ;)

[wilpuri]

Hey guys, could we cool things down a bit?! Hard facts from this period and part of the world is very illusive and hard to come by but that´s what we have to work with.

*Fistly, what´s "suomalaisuudenliitto" and what do they stand for? I´d like to know the reason why Wilpurri, normally a calm guy, is getting worked up about. Are they nationalists or what?


I think we've reached a cease-fire Pse, so not to worry ~:)
However, suomalaisuudenliitto... Well this probably one of the most embarrasing parties ever to have sprung up in Finland. Not only are they extremely nationalist, they're main agenda seems to be hating anything and everything swedish, and this means they have a clear bias in everything they write, including those so called "historical essays". I hate them from the bottom of my heart. I'm suprised you haven't heard of them. I'm not saying RKP (Svenska folk partiet) is too lovely either, with their freudenthal medals and all, but suomalaisuudenliitto is something else... Especially since my mothers side is swedish-speaking, (READ: NOT swedish, BIG difference ~:) ) I am extremely offended by many of their articles, for example one's that claim swedish speaking regiments in the wars were cowards. That is the ultimate attack against the memory of my grandfather, a swedish speaker who served almost non stop 1939-1944. Although he didn't serve in a swedish speaking regiment, he was a swedish speaker, and one of the greatest finnish patriots I've ever met.. So I have a personal reason to hate SL. Thank god they are only a small loony fringe group, and most people don't pay attention to them. I just can't help but being worked into a murderous rage whenever I read their articles. ~:angry: Which I encountered quite often during my research.

But I like your idea of two finnish factions (naturally ~:) ), but I'm not too sure about giving staraya ladoga to Karelia, may be they should be rebels, a rich province for the taking? They did not form a people as such to my knowledge, a sort of buffer zone between finnic and slavic interests.

BTW Pse, I think it's about time you started spelling my name correctly (wilpuri, not wilpurri), since now you've infected SS as well, and he spelled it wrong too ~D

Don't you think?

[Sebastian Seth]

Hey guys, could we cool things down a bit?! Hard facts from this period and part of the world is very illusive and hard to come by but that´s what we have to work with.

*Fistly, what´s "suomalaisuudenliitto" and what do they stand for? I´d like to know the reason why Wilpurri, normally a calm guy, is getting worked up about. Are they nationalists or what?
*Secondly SS, it will take some convincing to rip up all the work that has gone into this by the crew so bare with us. When we debate we debate but don´t argue, ok!
*Thirdly, we´ll dismiss all posts in Finnish. Stick to english, that we all can understand, ok!

IMHO the Finns shouldn´t be in the Swedish/ viking tech group for pretty much the same reason that Wilpuri mentioned. Either they go in the Baltic or the Slavic folder. They shouldn´t even be in the same cultural group as the Swedes and defenitely not in the same religious group.
If, and I say if, we choose to add a Finnish faction other than the Karelians which one should it be? Sums or Jems? Which faction should we then take away? Staraya Ladoga or any other?

@SS,
I stongly suggests that, if you want to take part in this discussion, read the whole FotN-thread. It will only take you some 30 minutes and you´ll be pretty much up to date with the rest of us.

"suomalaisuudenliitto" is kind of nationalistic. it means "finnish union" theres
lots of s**t in their web site. I just used the time frame and the facts,
I left the comments off. I'll try to get better sources, but wilpurri really
has good ones that provide the same facts.

Sorry about the arguing. Where I come from we can fight with fists today
and be best friends tomorow. It's kind of mentality thing, I'll try to be
more constructive at future.

We used finland to communicate between wilpuri an me. It's about 20 times
faster information change when we don't both translate to foreing language.
If theres any new info, we'll translate it to english.

If something should be taken off it should be Staraya Ladoga, the adding
of Sums and Jems is more difficult. I would add them both as Finns, that
would include the rest of the tribes. And by including all the rest we can
surely agree on the balance issues of karelia, because if the other tribes
are united as one they are bigger than karelia. And there's some historia
accurancy at this:

1. The Karelians fought against the Jems
2. Novgorod fought against Jems and Sums
3. Norway was attacked by the kveens
4. The vikings recruited from the Jems (probably from Sums too)
5. By the end of viking period the Sums and Jems where using
same technology and had same religion.
6. Staraya Ladoga or as I call it inkeri is not so different from karelian.

Did anybody look at the provinces I collected, they are from out of period
map and I split the karelia to two. What do you think?

Well i'm now going to read the threat from mail 1 to here.

btw. wilpuri and I have stopped arguing there was just some traditional
finnish overheating. It's quite common in finland. ~D

[Norseman]

I won't interfere much in the current discussion on Finland, as I don't know anything about it. However I must remind you of a few limitations in the game engine.

1) We can not have more than 32 factions, including the rebels. Therefore, if we are to have 2 finnish factions, this will be at the expense of a Baltic faction. IMO this is not good due to gameplay reasons, but if you believe this is by far the most historically accurate we can give it a try.

2)
Did anybody look at the provinces I collected, they are from out of period map and I split the karelia to two. What do you think?

I don't remember the limit on number of regions at the moment, however last time we looked at this I thought we already had too few to work with. Because of this I don't think Finland, including Karelia, will be more than two regions.

I would like more regions and factions just as much as any of you, but there is simply nothing we can do about it, sorry.

So I hope you(Wilpuri&SS) can work out something on this. Regarding regions, you can also make a plan involving 3 Finnish regions, just in case.

@SS

3. Norway was attacked by the kveens

Out of curiosity, when and where did this happen?

[wilpuri]

1) We can not have more than 32 factions, including the rebels. Therefore, if we are to have 2 finnish factions, this will be at the expense of a Baltic faction. IMO this is not good due to gameplay reasons, but if you believe this is by far the most historically accurate we can give it a try.
I don't think it would be historically accurate, unless you take out Staraya Ladoga as a faction, and replace it with a Finnish one.


So I hope you(Wilpuri&SS) can work out something on this. Regarding regions, you can also make a plan involving 3 Finnish regions, just in case.


I was under the impression that this was the plan, to have 3 Finnish provinces?

[PseRamesses]

I was under the impression that this was the plan, to have 3 Finnish provinces?

Yup, it actually was. 3 finnish provinces plus Karelia.

[wilpuri]

so that would mean 4 finnish provinces? If it is 3+1?

[Norseman]

Yup, it actually was. 3 finnish provinces plus Karelia.

Ok, maybe I'm mixing it up. PseR is the map-man, so use this then. Just in case though, can you work out a region-plan using only 3 regions as well(including Karelian)?


I don't think it would be historically accurate, unless you take out Staraya Ladoga as a faction, and replace it with a Finnish one.

This one got me confused ~:)

Are you saying that
2 Finnish factions would be more accurate than having Staraya Ladoga as a faction, regardless of region holdings?
OR
that the most accurate is keeping Staraya Ladoga as a faction if it also holds Karelian, with only 1 Finnish faction?
OR
2 Finnish factions is more accurate than keeping Staraya Ladoga, if the 2nd holds both the region Staraya Ladoga and karelian?

Hope I didn't confuse you with that! ~;)

[Sebastian Seth]

Ok, I readed the whole treath. I took some time but I did it. And
sorry about the wrong name wilpuri.

Conclusions:

Quates from Wilpuri:

"I support either the Häme or the Karelians"
"In Karelia, in Tavastia and in Varsinais-Suomi (Finland proper)"

SS: He was thinking of the other finns too and then bended to
karelians as he was forsed to chose one. He was also using
names like "proper finland", "häme" and "kveens". He's intel
does include facts about these tribes. He explaned to me
why he chose the karelians and he's points were good, but
I'm still sure that when doing war game, the main focus
should be in the factions who where fighting at that time
and had real military power. The traiding and politics should
be only a side plotting. And the Tavasts or Jems or Häme
where fighting at the time with novogrod, sweden and karelia.
The Tavasts or Jems or Häme where all so a people that
where recruited by Roslagen and other vikings as fighters.
But this could be all solved by adding finnish faction.
So please lets replace the ladoga people with the Finns. Ok?

"occupation of Sweden and Novgorod most likely started out as alliances"

SS: This is same thing I found but to be exact it was karelians and novogrod
who allied together and swedish and western finland allied seperatly.
This is the reason a first succested that finns should have swedish
tech tree, but after I read the whole threat and say the preliminary
swedish tech tree I changed my mind and do agree with wilpuri about
the baltic tech tree for finns. I'm repeating: I was wrong the finns
and the karelians should have baltic tech tree.

SS: On side note I found many things happening between Swedish, Sums
and Jams. For example swedish but kicked in finland. Sweedish troops
in finland to help and disagreement with finn and svean kings. So
that is kind of eating ground under the swedish kicked finns butt theory.
And it's building up theory that the swedish came to finland more
or less "trough the backdoor".

SS: I dont think that Staraja Ladoga or inkeri needs seperate faction
or as wilpuri suggested they could be rebels. The Inkeri people
are very near people of karelia and theres same genes in both
of them today. So please lets replace the ladoga people with
the Finns. Ok?

Finno-Ugric People (number of people in 1989)
http://www.ugri.net/002/htm/index.htm (source site, this time not nationalic)

Suomalaiset 5 milj. (Sums, Kveens, Jams)
Karjalaiset 130 929 (Karelians)
Vepsäläiset 12 501 (?)
Inkeroiset 820 (Inkeri - Straya Ladoga)
Vatjalaiset 60 (lived in vatjala, finland)
Virolaiset 1,1 milj. (Estonians - People of Saarenmaa?)
Liiviläiset 226 (?)

SS: The rest of finland was invaded 2 generations after karelia and
theres so many of them still. This points strongly to my point
that there was more people in finland then karelia. I have estimeted
that karelia and Inkeri together would be about 1/3 of finnish
population at the time. the rest 2/3 would be Sums, Kveens and Jams.
Notice that I left the estonians out since they are seperate faction.
So please lets replace the ladoga people with the Finns. Ok?

BTW I support the the idea that novogrod was founted
by rus-vikings from Roslagen. The Roslagen seems to be
the reason the finns call swedish as ruotsalaiset from ruotsi.
Alltough this is wrong sinse roslagen was in norway really
but the people at that time didn't know that.

BTW Wilpuri has really done superb job with the names, units, buildings
and the titles. Shrine of Ukko, Hiidenkivi, Night Raiders, Warband,
Karelian Horsemen (not for western finns, right?), Fishing traps, käräjät, etc
These are all fantastic ideas and they are adding more localization to
the mod. It warms my heart to see something I can identify as finn so fast.
The "hiidenkivi". I haven't heard that word for ten years, a blas from the past.

Mindstorming:
(if theres gonna be 2 finn factions u have to do it again anyway)

Finnish nobles, or the Kings guard: ("Henkivartijat"?)
(This is the original with some ideas)
Medium Armor - Swords - Large Wooden Shields
Superb Morale (It's their war, this could be high)
Good defence (bodygards do have to have good defence)
Normal Attack (Their not gods are they)
Good Hand to Hand (The best men of village)
Normal Charge Bonus (The armor cuts back little)
Poorly Formed (not entirely organized) - 80 per unit - mid-high priced

Mounted Finnish nobles, or the Kings guard: ("Mounted Henkivartijat"?)
(This could be at later stage, mayby level 4 unique buiding unit)
Medium Armor - Swords - Large Wooden shields
Superb Morale (It's their war, this could be high)
Good defence (bodygards do have to have good defence)
Normal Attack (Their not gods are they)
Good Hand to Hand (The best men of village)
Good Charge Bonus (Armor doesn't bother when u r riding)
Poorly Formed (not entirely organized) 40 per unit - high priced

Finnish Tribesmen: ("Heimosoturit"?)
(This could replace the peasats in finland)
Light Armor - Spears (no shields, just hunting spears)
Poor Morale (as poor people, scared)
Normal Defence (like spearman but less organized)
Poor Attack (mainly defenders of villages)
Poor Hand to Hand (not seasoned fighters)
Good Charge Bonus (lether armor doesn't bother, spear is good for this)
Not Formed (tribes mans not soldiers) 80 per unit - very cheap priced

Finnish Woodmen: ("Kirvesmiehet"?)
(new on, inspiration from Hardy Woodmen from MTW)
Light Armor - Axes - Small Wooden Shield (wood cutting axes)
Poor Morale (as poor people, scared)
Poor Defence (as axes are)
Normal Attack (as axe is good for)
Poor Hand to Hand (not seasoned fighters)
Good Charge Bonus (lether armor doesn't bother)
Not Formed (tribes mans not soldiers) 80 per unit - cheap priced

Wilderland Hunters: ("Jousimiehet"?)
(Original, filled caps)
Light Armor - Short Bows
Poor Morale (as poor people, scared)
Weak Defence (as u can imagine with bow)
Weak Attack (no need for this)
Poor Hand to Hand (not seasoned fighters)
no Charge Bonus (charge whit what?)
Not Formed (tribes mans not soldiers) 40 per unit - very cheap priced

Finnish Infantry: ("Jalkaväki"?)
(Original, backbone of finnish troops, basic soldier)
Medium Armor - Swords - Small Wooden Shields
Good Morale (semi-professional, blood thirsty, experienced)
Normal Defence (as attacking troop)
Good Attack (mayby this is good)
Good Hand to Hand (seasoned fighters)
Normal Charge Bonus (Could be better but this is good)
Poorly Formed (Fighters no soldiers) 80 per unit - mid priced

Warband: ("Sotajoukko"?)
(better version of jalkaväki, viking recruits, professionals, mercenery)
Medium Armor - Swords - Large Wooden Shields
Very Good Morale (viking gods & traditions)
Normal Defence (as attacking troop)
Very Good Attack (mayby this is good)
Good Hand to Hand (seasoned fighters)
Normal Charge Bonus (Could be better but this is good)
Poorly Formed (Fighters no soldiers) 80 per unit - mid-high priced

Night Raiders: ("Sissit?") (stealthy)
(special unit, steathy, like welsh bandits, Night attakers, traditional finns)
Light Armor - Bow - Axe - Small Wooden Shield
Very Good Morale (finnish traditions)
Good Defence (unique fighting style, trained)
Good Attack (unique fighting style, trained))
Good Hand to Hand (seasoned fighters)
Good Charge Bonus (as axes)
Not Formed (traditional finns not like romans) 40 per unit - high priced

Shamans: ("Poppamiehet"?) (uncontrolled)
(Special unit, like berserkers, drug usage, crazyness, fearless)
Medium Armor - Axe - Small Wooden Shield
Suberb Morale (no sense of the battle)
Very Good Defence (drugs)
Suberb Attack (drugs)
Suberb Hand to Hand (no pain)
Suberb Charge Bonus (as axes)
Not Formed (traditional finns not like romans) 20 per unit - Very high priced

1.What do you think Wilpuri, hope I'm not raping your work to much?

2.Do we have a decision about cutting finns in? (at the expence of Ladoga)

3.Do we have 3 finn provinces + karelia + straya Ladoka or Less?

[Sebastian Seth]

@ Norseman

Start of translation:
Alfred the Great (danish i believe) did publish book called Osorius World
History (name is translation, originaly probably in danish). The book
included description about Kveens (in finnish Kainuulaiset) who where
doing destruction expedition to norway (end of 9th century).

Tjodorf Hvinil in Ynglingatal (about 900 BC) oldest refers to Fornjotr-folklore
witch tells about kings of Finns and Kveens.
:End of translation

Theres some archeological foundings that finns where living in the north
lappland as early as 3300 - 2800 BC. Kveens where probably living in
the north end of gulf bothnia. And they where hunters and fishermen.
This is why they moved long distances. And norway is not that far
away from north finland (today we have border). This is probably
attack from the north not an attack by ships. I'm not sure how the
translation sounds but it was written in that way that the purpose
of the trip was not booty but to kill competition in north area. There's
allso some caps between archeological (

[Sebastian Seth]

sorry bad comment there cutted the text off.

...theres some caps in the time of archeological findings at the places
kveens lived. and this could mean they were attacked too. but was
it people of north norway or finnish Jams from south or whatever
i dont know. anyway there probably was some competition in the
north whit all the vikings, shamish and kveens. hunting and fishing
plases do matter when your people are depentand on them.

[PseRamesses]

@SS,
The fishing-trap industry is actually my idea, however Wilpuri has suggested a new fortification structure: a hill fort. This structure seems to have been the main defensive structure in Finland and more or less all of the Baltics where they still litter the landscape. If my memory serves me right he argued that a fort on top of a mound/ hill was surrounded of a man-high stone wall and that theese forts was preferably sourrunded by forrests?

@Wilpuri,
Sorry for keep misspelling your name thus louring others to do the same. It seems that you and SS have found a common ground to work on which pleases me. Regarding Finnish provinces, I rather liked your map posted earlier in this thread where you suggested that Finland proper, Häme and one more (I can´t remember its name) would make up Finland and the Karelians were holding Karelia. At that time we agreed upon that amount of provinces but it´s always good to have a alternate plan like Norse is pointing out. You could also look into drawing up a 4-province Finland (excl. Karelia) just in case ;) we must squeeze one more in for game-play balance reasons.

[Sebastian Seth]

@SS,
The fishing-trap industry is actually my idea, however Wilpuri has suggested a new fortification structure: a hill fort. This structure seems to have been the main defensive structure in Finland and more or less all of the Baltics where they still litter the landscape. If my memory serves me right he argued that a fort on top of a mound/ hill was surrounded of a man-high stone wall and that theese forts was preferably sourrunded by forrests?

@Wilpuri,
Sorry for keep misspelling your name thus louring others to do the same. It seems that you and SS have found a common ground to work on which pleases me. Regarding Finnish provinces, I rather liked your map posted earlier in this thread where you suggested that Finland proper, Häme and one more (I can´t remember its name) would make up Finland and the Karelians were holding Karelia. At that time we agreed upon that amount of provinces but it´s always good to have a alternate plan like Norse is pointing out. You could also look into drawing up a 4-province Finland (excl. Karelia) just in case ;) we must squeeze one more in for game-play balance reasons.

@Pse
Well the fishing trap idea is great anyway, the finns (kveens) living in north
often closed the rivers from narrow points with nets. This is a fishing trap
of the best quality and it is historicaly right that finns build ones.

When you're state 4 province finland excluding karelia you're meaning
5 province finland. See the modern finnish-russian border is in the
middle of karelia. I'm pretty much with Wilpuri at the province thing.

My original list whit comments:

1. Catania (west coast) - This is the kvenland land of kveens
2. Finlandia (west-south coast) - This is what you call proper-finland
3. Nylandia (south coast) - This is drawn to Tavast in Wilpuri's map.
4. North Karelia (east finland inland) - This includes Savo.
5. South Karelia (south-east coast) - Karelia as we see it.
6. Tavastia (south-west inland) - Or Häme, where the Jems live.
7. Ingria (south-east half of ladoga and little of estonia) - Straya Ladoga
8. Alandia (Island in south-west of finland) - The island near proper finland
9. Laplandia (North of finland) - well, this isn't really needed.

My next list with comments:

Finnish Provinces:
1. Catania (Kveenland) - the coast from proper finland to lapland.
2. Finlandia (Proper Finland) - including Alandia, like wilpuri drawed.
3. Tavast (Häme) - including some nyland coast, like wilpuri drawed.
4. Karelia (Karjala) - Big one from savo to north ladoga.

Baltic Provinces:
1. Ingria (Inkeri) - including straya ladoga, north part of estonian coast.

If theres possible to add one more I would success that id would be either
Nylandia (cutting the tavast from sea, making karelia smaler) or North
Karelia including Savo (cutting karelia smaler). As you see the finland
could be 3 provinces + Karelia, 4 would be better for the Karelian
faction, because then you could do two province karelia and
Ingria (straya ladoga) could be seperate rebel province and this way
we could emphasize the differences between karelians and ingrians.
And the ingria could be drawn more to estonia. But we have to ask
wilpuri about the estonian provinces so we can think how to ladoga
region should be. He's knowledge of the baltics is way beyond my
knowledge.

[Sebastian Seth]

Here is some maps for getting the finnish and ingrid province idea:

http://www.geocities.com/siidon/sap/stuff/finn01.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/siidon/sap/stuff/finn02.jpg

I don't know the age of this, but I estimated is not as old as it should be.

Notice the latin on south-west corner, it says something about the
military units in finland and kajaani and on the other statement something
similar about germany.

The borders are not whole finlands borders, they are just swedish domination
areas. Theres no north karelia at all, as you can see the "suojärvi" is outside
of the borders.

I'll draw some borders to second map. These are not accurate, just for
getting the general idea. The kveenland should probably be wider
from north and not have so much coast. But tell me what do you think.

[wilpuri]

If Åland is made a seperate province, it should be rebel imo, or then it should not be included at all. At the beginning of the time-period it was inhabited by finnic peoples, mostly Estonians who emigrated there, but came under heavy Scandinavian influence, and was "germanicized" far earlier than any other part of Finland. On the whole, I like the map, but I'm afraid that we are not going to have neough space for so many provinces. I suggest that atleast N. and S. Karelia be merged into a single province, and that Ingria and Staraya Ladoga be merged into one, may be as a rebel province (I haven't read much about Starya Ladoga, but other than having city defences, I don't think they were very expansionist militarily, and so may be it could be a rebel province, rich in trade goods, there for the taking? Just some ideas.

Concerning Kvenland, the map wont probably extend much north of Vaasa, or that's the impression I got.

[Sebastian Seth]

The hill fort sounds good. Naturaly the hill fort's in finland would be
in deep forest and in top of hill so that the finish hunters could
spot the enemy from long range and shoot them with bows until
the attackers reach the fort (could be stone, wood or both) by
that time the finns used spears axes with advantage in high
(standing on the wall poking people in the hill). This is not actua
science, but this is the one way to see it happening. The forrest
is a huge advantage in finnish way of war. Imagine these people
have lived in the forrest all their life, they will hear troops coming
from far away. Finns dont prefer to attack in day time, in day time
they keep their distance and when the night comes they ambush
the army from many different directions. Horses wouldn't be of any use
since the forrest in finland is so thick and full of lakes and rivers that theres
no space to charge or attack whitout hitting a tree. In forrest you have to
jump and move trough undergrowth and this is why heavy armors tire
you very fast. And it's very hard to move siege weapons around lakes
and rivers and woods. And it's hard to keep roman formations or
lines when theres trees all around your formation. To succesfully
destroy finns you need to know where they live and thats very difficult
when they are living all around large area and hiding most of the time.
This way of war is still alive today. in WWII finns disabled tanks with
wood stics and killed the crew by bottle of gas (molotov cocktail).
So you see the streight of finns is the knowledge of nature and cunning
tactics. Finns doesn't really need any forts for defending them self.
The jarl binger didn't actualy invade the whole forrest he just invaded
the primary trading places and few dence population areas. This wouldn't
been easy if the finns wouldn't convert to catholics (when they did
the swedish got them counted and knew where they lived). In todays
häme (tavast) theres still saying; mä tierän missä sä asut ;this means
I know where you live. Thats all that it means, but it gets people on
their toes, because to finnish its a threat. This mentality is quite simple
if someone knows where you live, he can come and do something to
your wife and children mayby to you when you sleep. This is another
primary way of finnish war; divercing ;in WWII russians came at night
with huge squatrons on bombers to bomb Helsinki (Capital of F), in the
night the finnish set up huge amout of lights in the near forrests. So
when the russian bombers saw the lights they tought it was helsinki
and troped all bobs to the forrest. I could go on and on, but i'm sure
you get the point.

Here's some pictures from the most dense city distric in finland.
As you can see the place is full of trees, just trees and houses.
This is located in the häme province not far from tavasthus.
click the black text at bottom then the numbers at top
http://www.hervanta.fi/ie/galleria/

Conclusion:

1. Finnish battle maps should be full of trees and lakes and rivers.
2. The finnish units are better defenders than attackers.
3. The finnish castle maps should be in hill and surrounted by
rocks, giving the defender a huge advantage. there should be
huge narrow hills to the fort and there should be trees in the
way. Also forrest around fort is very accurate.
4. Finnish units should be steathy when moving in finland.
5. on prober-finland there souldn't be so much threes, but more
water every where.
6. The forregn troops should not be able to hide in finnish forrests.
7. There should be some way to emphasize the possibility to geting
killed in finland at night.
8. Finns should be rebelios against swedish and novogrod.
9. Finns shouldn't have siege weapons or horses.
10.Siege weapons and horses would be disadvantaged in finland.
(allmost imbossible).

Well, enough for this mail. Are you sure that no mail is to long?

[Sebastian Seth]

If Åland is made a seperate province, it should be rebel imo, or then it should not be included at all. At the beginning of the time-period it was inhabited by finnic peoples, mostly Estonians who emigrated there, but came under heavy Scandinavian influence, and was "germanicized" far earlier than any other part of Finland.

Well, the åland is not prime importance in anyway so I just throwed it in
with finlandia (varsinais-suomi). I agree to all u do about this.



On the whole, I like the map, but I'm afraid that we are not going to have neough space for so many provinces. I suggest that atleast N. and S. Karelia be merged into a single province, and that Ingria and Staraya Ladoga be merged into one, may be as a rebel province (I haven't read much about Starya Ladoga, but other than having city defences, I don't think they were very expansionist militarily, and so may be it could be a rebel province, rich in trade goods, there for the taking? Just some ideas.

Yes, the map cuts out large part of n. karelia, mayby its best as one karelia.



Concerning Kvenland, the map wont probably extend much north of Vaasa, or that's the impression I got.

Damn, thats a real problem... Mayby we should cut Häme and Varsinais-suomi
to little smaler to get kveenland on map?

@wilpuri
About finnish names in finnish: (sorry im in hurry)
ootko saanut suomalaisiin nimiin selvyyttä, mietin että niissä vois käyttää
etunimissä liitteitä, niinkun Antti Erkinpoika jne ja sukunimet muodostuis
paikan nimistä ja ammateista ja heimoista esim Talonpää, Pellonpää, Seppä,
Nahkuri, Soturi, Kaivaja, Iso-talo, Pohjala, Järvensivu jne

Eli otetaan kolme nimee Antti, Erkki, Eemeli ja tehdään lisää
Antti
Antti Erkinpoika
Antti Eemelinpoika
Antti Antinpoika
jne kunnes saadaan 12 nimee. ja lisätään sukunimet
Antti Erkinpoika Nahkuri
Antti Eemelinpoika Seppälä
Antti Antinpoika Tavastia
Erkki Järvensivu
Eemeli Pohjala
Erkki Karjalainen
Erkki Pohjalainen
Erkki Antinpoika Suomalainen
Ison-talon Antti ja Rannanjärvi ne tappeli kahden... (tiedät varmaan biisin)
tässä on kysessä Antti Iso-talo ja (isäntä) Rannanjärvi. jossa molemmat
viittaa että kyseessä on isontalon omistaja ja rantatontin omistaja. Lisäks
voidaan käyttää prefixejä Veli- Sisko- Iso-
Veli-Antti Erkinpoika Seppä
Näin voitas tehdä pienestä määrästä suomalaisia nimiä paljon ja poistaa
gunnarit, fjördöffit sun muut. tosin mulla on kyllä norski nimi molemmilta
puolilta sukua mutta onneks toinen adoption kautta.

sorry about the finnish. ~:)

[Meneldil]

I think the max of province you can have on a map is 117.

[wilpuri]

SS, here is a good essay that would argue FOR the Karelians as the most powerful/unified Finnish faction:
http://www.greywolves.org/artikkelit/2002-08-25-Rautakautinen_Karjala.html

I also recommend you check out some of the other writings on this site
http://www.greywolves.org/artikkelit/aihe/Historia.html

It would be good to know, what the final word on the factions and provinces will be. I would be happy with a 4 province Finland, (including Karelia), A rebel Ingria/Staraya Ladoga, Tavasts and Karelians as the Finnish factions if Possible. The Baltic could remain as planned before, although I would like to know how you guys have planned it, since many things I thought had been decided, have changed. Also, it would be nice to have a progress report, on how far we have got with this mod.

Some guidance with the tech-trees would also be good, since I am very much of a novice in these things.
~:wave:

[wilpuri]

@wilpuri
About finnish names in finnish: (sorry im in hurry)
ootko saanut suomalaisiin nimiin selvyyttä, mietin että niissä vois käyttää
etunimissä liitteitä, niinkun Antti Erkinpoika jne ja sukunimet muodostuis
paikan nimistä ja ammateista ja heimoista esim Talonpää, Pellonpää, Seppä,
Nahkuri, Soturi, Kaivaja, Iso-talo, Pohjala, Järvensivu jne

Eli otetaan kolme nimee Antti, Erkki, Eemeli ja tehdään lisää
Antti
Antti Erkinpoika
Antti Eemelinpoika
Antti Antinpoika
jne kunnes saadaan 12 nimee. ja lisätään sukunimet
Antti Erkinpoika Nahkuri
Antti Eemelinpoika Seppälä
Antti Antinpoika Tavastia
Erkki Järvensivu
Eemeli Pohjala
Erkki Karjalainen
Erkki Pohjalainen
Erkki Antinpoika Suomalainen
Ison-talon Antti ja Rannanjärvi ne tappeli kahden... (tiedät varmaan biisin)
tässä on kysessä Antti Iso-talo ja (isäntä) Rannanjärvi. jossa molemmat
viittaa että kyseessä on isontalon omistaja ja rantatontin omistaja. Lisäks
voidaan käyttää prefixejä Veli- Sisko- Iso-
Veli-Antti Erkinpoika Seppä
Näin voitas tehdä pienestä määrästä suomalaisia nimiä paljon ja poistaa
gunnarit, fjördöffit sun muut. tosin mulla on kyllä norski nimi molemmilta
puolilta sukua mutta onneks toinen adoption kautta.


I have already made a namelist for all baltic factions and peoples, I can send it to you if you wish. Trax and I agreed, that Finnic and Baltic people will only have first names (like mongols in MTW), since last names weren't really official, except to indicate place of origin, trade etc, so not really names as such. I'm afraid that's the best I've been able to do, I've used the kalevala and some websites as sources for the names. I suggest you take a look at the name list (give me your email, and I'll send it).

This article gives some insight on the matter.
http://www.greywolves.org/artikkelit/2002-03-21-Suomalainen_nimisto.html

[wilpuri]

@Norseman

This one got me confused

Are you saying that
2 Finnish factions would be more accurate than having Staraya Ladoga as a faction, regardless of region holdings?
OR
that the most accurate is keeping Staraya Ladoga as a faction if it also holds Karelian, with only 1 Finnish faction?
OR
2 Finnish factions is more accurate than keeping Staraya Ladoga, if the 2nd holds both the region Staraya Ladoga and karelian?

Hope I didn't confuse you with that!

-Norseman

What I meant was

1. Starya Ladoga becomes a rebel province in its own right. This could reflect the fact, that it was more of a trade station (large) between Finnic and Slavic peoples, a sort of buffer zone until it became defacto Viking held, and then Novgorodian. Starya Ladoga was not very active militarily, as far as I know, and that's why I feel that it would be good to have it rebel, for the taking, like it was in reality. A prize for those, who get there first.

2. Without Starya Ladoga as a playable faction, we would have room for another Finnish faction. The more I think about it, the more the more I like the idea of a Western Finnish faction, to prevent the Karelians from becoming de facto rulers of Finland, which did not happen in reality. The western Finns fought for centuries against the eastern Finns, and eventually Novgorod sided with Karelia, and Sweden with the Western Finns, and so they waged wars, often proxy wars with Karelian and Western Finnish troops, against each other.

What do you guys think?

EDIT
@SS
Here is an excellent site about ancient Karelia, read this, and you might understand why I was inclined to choosing Karelia from the other Finnish tribes.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/rastas/carelia.html

EDIT
This is very interesting:


Maakunta:------Taloja:-----------------------Asukasluku:
------------n.v. 1350-------1540-luvulla--n.v. 1350-------1540-luvulla
Ahvenanmaa-----900--------1100-------------9 000------11 000
Varsinais-Suomi--4000-------7000 ------------40 000-----70 000
Uusimaa---------2000-------4200-------------20 000-----42 000
Häme-----------1300--------4600------------13 000------46 000
Satakunta-------1800--------4000-----------18 000------40 000
Savo------------600---------3400------------6 000------34 000
Pohjanmaa-------1000-------3300------------10 000------33 000
Viipurin Karjala----1500-------6300------------15 000-----63 000
YHTEENSÄ--------13100------33900----------131 000----339 000

I think that based on this information, we could conclude that the Sumi/Suomi were more powerful than the Tavasts, since they most probably wielded far greater man power, and also Turku, the ancient Finnish trade centre and town, was located there...

[wilpuri]

A site concerning Kvenland/Kainuu
http://finnpro2000.tripod.com/kainuunmaa.htm

[Sebastian Seth]

@Wilpuri, you have very good sources. I was thinking that the finnish
faction should include Sums, Jems and Kveens and still be called as
Finns. Like in one of your source there was description of karelia and
the loose union of many karelian tribes to form real karelia. This should
go as western finns to as they did have similar loose union in the period
that the mod is designed. I allso read some article about the trade of
the Jems. The trade between Jems & Sums where very common. And
the name Sums isn't really that officall since the swedish called all
tribes as finns. It was after rebelion in "häme" that caused the novgorod
and swedish to seperate the Sums and Jems.

Yes, I could look at the namelists. I'm sure we could have surnames
for finns if we just collect lists of different place names and professions
of the time. I read that the Finns didn't really use surnames but they
did reference to place when there was people on the same name
in the village. like "Erkki Aaronpoika from Peräkylä" and it was later
shortened as Erkkia Aaronpoika Peräkylä. I'll send my email as PM

[Ceryx]

Sorting through 16 pages of posts with a simple word in a search box is tiresome, so forgive me if this question has been asked before.

Has a map been finished for this mod? I've seen the original very green maps that were created, and they looked very distasteful. I'd like to offer my skills as an artist to render a map if one hasn't been made as of yet. So, if you need it, send me an email - info[at]ceryx.org , whatever you already have would also be helpful as a guideline.

[Sebastian Seth]

Sorting through 16 pages of posts with a simple word in a search box is tiresome, so forgive me if this question has been asked before.

Has a map been finished for this mod? I've seen the original very green maps that were created, and they looked very distasteful. I'd like to offer my skills as an artist to render a map if one hasn't been made as of yet. So, if you need it, send me an email - info[at]ceryx.org , whatever you already have would also be helpful as a guideline.

You should ask Norseman, he's the one making the map if im correct.

@Norseman @Pse
What is the status whit the mod. I mean what is unfinished or needs
more research? How big is the crew and whois doing what?

[PseRamesses]

Just a quickie, I´m on my way to work.

I´m making the strat map and will do battlemaps later on. Norse and Vikinghorde are doing the actual modding. VH will join shortly when XL 2.0 is finished. A whole heap of people have joined in and out when it comes to research. Most factions are done, Norse is now in the progress of making the different tech-trees.

@Ceryx,
I´ll get back to you on your offer. Thanks in advance!

[wilpuri]

@Wilpuri, you have very good sources. I was thinking that the finnish
faction should include Sums, Jems and Kveens and still be called as
Finns. Like in one of your source there was description of karelia and
the loose union of many karelian tribes to form real karelia. This should
go as western finns to as they did have similar loose union in the period
that the mod is designed. I allso read some article about the trade of
the Jems. The trade between Jems & Sums where very common. And
the name Sums isn't really that officall since the swedish called all
tribes as finns. It was after rebelion in "häme" that caused the novgorod
and swedish to seperate the Sums and Jems.

Well, Kainuunmaa/Kvenland will not be on the map as far as I know, it's too far to the north. IF we are able to add another Finnish faction, then I see no major obstacle why Sums & Jems couldn't be one uninted, W. Finnish faction. It would be quite accurate to have them united against the Eastern Finns, and would probably also prove better in the long run, since Karelians never really conquered into W. Finland, they only conducted war raids back and forth, very much like the vikings were doing. They were out for the booty, and taxes/tribute, not territory as such. Only after Sweden and Novgorod become real kingdoms, does the territorial conquest begin in earnest in the north (norden/pohjola) and in the baltic.

It would be great to see some of Norseman's work, and I'm also impatiently waiting for VH to join the crew, and come with some great stuff. :jumping:
So far, I can do nothing but fantasize about playing FOTN...and drool
~:)

[PseRamesses]

It would be great to see some of Norseman's work, and I'm also impatiently waiting for VH to join the crew, and come with some great stuff. So far, I can do nothing but fantasize about playing FOTN...and drool


Welcome to the club. The main problem for Norse has been the limitation of time due to his university studies. The main problem for me is the same since I get up at 4:00 in the morning, start work at 6:00 and work to 17:00 in the afternoon, get home around 18:30, cook dinner, eat, have a shower - and wham! it´s 20:00.... I go to bed around 21:00. The only time I have at the present is on weekends and its also limited due to all the things one have to do then; shop groceries, clean, wash, iron etc and most important of all: spend time with my kids!
This is the main reason why we don´t work against a time limit or a fixed release date, its just the way it is so we have to be patience and wait.

IMPORTANT
Norses PC has crashed and he can´t post at the forum from the university so you won´t see him until its fixed. I´ll keep you posted on this when things change.

[PseRamesses]

1. Finnish battle maps should be full of trees and lakes and rivers.
2. The finnish units are better defenders than attackers.
3. The finnish castle maps should be in hill and surrounted by
rocks, giving the defender a huge advantage. there should be
huge narrow hills to the fort and there should be trees in the
way. Also forrest around fort is very accurate.
4. Finnish units should be steathy when moving in finland.
5. on prober-finland there souldn't be so much threes, but more
water every where.
6. The forregn troops should not be able to hide in finnish forrests.
7. There should be some way to emphasize the possibility to geting
killed in finland at night.
8. Finns should be rebelios against swedish and novogrod.
9. Finns shouldn't have siege weapons or horses.
10.Siege weapons and horses would be disadvantaged in finland.
Well, enough for this mail. Are you sure that no mail is to long?

1. This is my intention too.
2. Sounds correct.
3. Don´t know about the rocks but forrests around the fort ís my intention.
4 & 6. Certain units may be stealthy in some type of terrain but the division you´re suggestions is not doable I´m afraid. This is Norses dept really. Maybee VH have the answer to this.
5. By Proper-Finland you mean the centarl part, or?
7. Don´t know if this can be done. Maybe we can trigger more siege-casualities in Finnish provinces.
8. We can´t separate rebellious tendencies I´m afraid. I´ve been urging th community for this for a very long time now. Basically I want higher reb-tend for conquerers with a different faith but you can´t sort out certain facs that they should rebel more against, sorry!
9. Agree.
10. Agree.

And yes, no post is too long as long as it´s adequate ;)

[wilpuri]

Hmm Finns should have limited access to horses, they did exist. The Karelians bred and exported horses! So limited access to horses at least for the Karelians.

Too bad about Norse's computer ~:(
I hope he gets it fixed soon.

[PseRamesses]

Well, the åland is not prime importance in anyway so I just throwed it in with finlandia (varsinais-suomi). Yes, the map cuts out large part of n. karelia, mayby its best as one karelia.
Damn, thats a real problem... Mayby we should cut Häme and Varsinais-suomi
to little smaler to get kveenland on map?

I intend to keep all islands, small or big, playable or non-playable on the map and link them to a nearby region for esthetic reasons. If you´ve played HTW you´ll know what I´m talking about.
Besides Karelia I´d like to se two versions of Finland. One with three provinces and one with 4 but still one faction besides the Karelians. Weather you guys decide to add in the 4th prov as a reb Kveen is ok by me. Staraya Ladoga (inkeri) should be one very strong, rich and have multiple trading resoureces.

[wilpuri]

Ok, here was the original map I posted, with 3 provinces, Karelia included. By the way, lets say that Karelia is a Finnish province, it gets confusing when people separate karelia form the rest. so from now on, whenever I say finnish provinces, that means karelia included.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/wilpuri/sekalaista/suomenjako.jpg


Here is 5 province Finland I made a quick sketch of, and also where the borders of Staraya Ladoga should go imo.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/wilpuri/suomijalaatokka.bmp

Hmm noticed the second map is a bit small.. I hope you can see. The read arrow at the south eastern corner of the map points out where the anciet city of Starya Ladoga was located. The most northerly province is Kvenland/Kainuunmaa, South of it is Häme, west of Häme is Finland proper, East of Häme, between Karelia and Häme, is Savo. I have stretched to borders of Karelia around lake ladoga to the borders of Staraya ladoga.

[PseRamesses]

Ok, here was the original map I posted, with 3 provinces, Karelia included. By the way, lets say that Karelia is a Finnish province, it gets confusing when people separate karelia form the rest. so from now on, whenever I say finnish provinces, that means karelia included.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/wilpuri/sekalaista/suomenjako.jpg
Hmm noticed the second map is a bit small.. I hope you can see. The read arrow at the south eastern corner of the map points out where the anciet city of Starya Ladoga was located. The most northerly province is Kvenland/Kainuunmaa, South of it is Häme, west of Häme is Finland proper, East of Häme, between Karelia and Häme, is Savo. I have stretched to borders of Karelia around lake ladoga to the borders of Staraya ladoga.

This is easy IMO; Use the upper map. Draw in Finland-proper, Häme, divide Savo-Karelia into two separate provs. Then the 5th Finn prov will be north of theese the Kveen reb prov so don´t touch the northern border on the upper map that much, ok? Now we have both a 4 and 5 prov Finnish map with two Finnish factions, right?!

[wilpuri]

Ok, sounds alright to me.
So, we have 2 Finnish factions now? Can we call that settled? Or is Old Ladoga still in?

[PseRamesses]

Ok, sounds allright to me. So, we have 2 Finnish factions now? Can we call that settled? Or is Old Ladoga still in?

Settled for now that is. Nothing is really settled until we´re close to a beta when we´ll finally decide upon everything again since we might run into probs with space, provs and facs etc. If we´d settled on a 3-prov Finland and one fac there SS arguments in this matter wouldn´t have had any impact on our decision. I want to have the same freedom and liberty to remove or add in the future too for the above reason. But let´s say that this is 90% certain, ok?! ;)
Old Ladoga will, on your and SS´recommendation, be rebels.

[PseRamesses]

Yaaaaawn, I´m getting tired and have just a quick lazy Q: uploading pics to the thread when posting, is that still doable through the old Org´s uploads section or have they crated a new upload section for this forum here? (Hope anyone understood this, I hardly didn´t!?)

I´m asking since in the near future I will present the raw-strat-map, used to draw regionsborders etc, in two formats a "tilted" version and a North by South "traditional" projection. Additionally I´m currently playing with three different "coats" for the final gameplay map: one MTW style, one CIVIII style and the third is a huge cut-n-paste job from arial shots taken with the -ian command from battlemaps and a very high altitude.
Additionally Ceryx has jumped me we an astonishing idea, a 3D rendered part of a globe! ~:eek: So we´re gonna play with that idea a bit, although I would be very surprised if the game would actually accept it since it traditionally works in 2D. We´ll just have to wait and see. Nighty, nighty.... hello sandman....zzzzzz!

[Sebastian Seth]

3. Don´t know about the rocks but forrests around the fort ís my intention.
4 & 6. Certain units may be stealthy in some type of terrain but the division you´re suggestions is not doable I´m afraid. This is Norses dept really. Maybee VH have the answer to this.
5. By Proper-Finland you mean the centarl part, or?
7. Don´t know if this can be done. Maybe we can trigger more siege-casualities in Finnish provinces.
8. We can´t separate rebellious tendencies I´m afraid. I´ve been urging th community for this for a very long time now. Basically I want higher reb-tend for conquerers with a different faith but you can´t sort out certain facs that they should rebel more against, sorry!
9. Agree.
10. Agree.

And yes, no post is too long as long as it´s adequate ;)

3. I was thinking about the hill fort idea. It's easy to find good defencive
hills from finland. But I'm not obsessed about it.

4 & 6. Isn't the wales bandits stealthy? There's a colum in the unit production file: "Is the unit stealthy Yes/no".

5. Proper-finland is the coastal area "varsinais-suomi" the province in
south-west. There's lots of coastal line there and later period there
was tendecies to build castles on islands on the coast. But this is
not really nessesery as long as theres lakes and water ways in map.

7. Well, thats kind of hard. Mayby just leave it up to battle map.

8. to bad we can't seperate viking religion from baltic paganism.

[Sebastian Seth]

Settled for now that is. Nothing is really settled until we´re close to a beta when we´ll finally decide upon everything again since we might run into probs with space, provs and facs etc. If we´d settled on a 3-prov Finland and one fac there SS arguments in this matter wouldn´t have had any impact on our decision. I want to have the same freedom and liberty to remove or add in the future too for the above reason. But let´s say that this is 90% certain, ok?! ;)
Old Ladoga will, on your and SS´recommendation, be rebels.

I don't think theres going to be a finn against 2 finn factions and
4 province finland. I think the next will be saying there should be
5 finn factions and 6 provinces. hehehe ~:) , but we cant really
draw decisive 4 province finland until we now how much finland is
included on the game map.

@Wilpuri, should the häme really have part of coast in the gulf of bothnia?
I was thinking to draw kvenland and proper-finland a border.

Did you mail the names lists to me? I seem to have over 700 spam mails
in mailbox and I didn't find it.

[PseRamesses]

I don't think theres going to be a finn against 2 finn factions and 4 province finland. I think the next will be saying there should be
5 finn factions and 6 provinces. hehehe ~:) , but we cant really draw decisive 4 province finland until we now how much finland is included on the game map.
That´s why I suggested we have the north of Finland as a reserve province.


@Wilpuri, should the häme really have part of coast in the gulf of bothnia? I was thinking to draw kvenland and proper-finland a border.
Exactly my thought.

[wilpuri]

SS,
Yes, I mailed the namelists to you, but if you can't find them, I can always mail them again.

Concerning Häme, I just though that Kvenland shouldn't stretch so far south, but we can use the Häme province from the 3 province map above, and do what Pse said, just separate Savo-Karelia into two provinces.

Pse,
So we will not be able to make separate religions for the Scandinavian pagans and the Baltic pagans? No big deal, but I was thinking, that since we don't have muslim factions, we could use the muslim religion to represent one of the pagan religions? With different pagan religions, the baltic pagans would be more inclined to rebel against scandinavian invaders and vice versa.

[Sebastian Seth]

SS,
Yes, I mailed the namelists to you, but if you can't find them, I can always mail them again..

No, need I found it after I really looked.



Concerning Häme, I just though that Kvenland shouldn't stretch so far south, but we can use the Häme province from the 3 province map above, and do what Pse said, just separate Savo-Karelia into two provinces..

This sounds good to me. We'll have to get back to it when they have
an idea of how north will the main map reach.

[PseRamesses]

Pse,
So we will not be able to make separate religions for the Scandinavian pagans and the Baltic pagans? No big deal, but I was thinking, that since we don't have muslim factions, we could use the muslim religion to represent one of the pagan religions? With different pagan religions, the baltic pagans would be more inclined to rebel against scandinavian invaders and vice versa.

Did I say that? No, ofcourse we can have pagan religion but Scandinavian paganism is maybee only needed in Finland. IMO I rather separate Finland completely from Scandinavia and fold them in the baltic pagans. What do you think?
I think we have 4 religions (viking, catholic, pagans and celtic) as for now and I´m not shure how many more we can add... if it was one or two??? VH told me a while ago but I forgot. Since Russia adopted the orthodox faith around 960 or 990Ad I would like to se a Russian pagan religion folder as well.

[wilpuri]

That sounds fair, but I was under the impression that the Celts of Britain were Catholic during this time? Or what do you mean by "Celtic"? And can the Jewish & Heretic religions be used for anything?


No, ofcourse we can have pagan religion but Scandinavian paganism is maybee only needed in Finland. IMO I rather separate Finland completely from Scandinavia and fold them in the baltic pagans. What do you think?

This I don't understand, why Scandinavian paganism only in Finland!?! By Scandinavian paganism, I meant the religion of the Vikings, it is a pagan religion after all... So either that's the misunderstanding or then I'm lost. And yes, I think it would be fair to have Finland in the same culture/religion as the Baltic factions.

The Russian factions should probably also belong to a different religion... But I don't know about the tribes EC researched, some of them had Baltic gods according to EC.

[thrashaholic]

Sorry I haven't been posting much lately, I've just started my A-level courses at a new college, so I haven't had much spare time as of late, plus there seems to have been a large Finland debate going and I figured that if I can't contirbute I shouldn't try... ~:)

Anyway,


That sounds fair, but I was under the impression that the Celts of Britain were Catholic during this time? Or what do you mean by "Celtic"? And can the Jewish & Heretic religions be used for anything?

Wilpuri, I suggested that "Celtic" should be considered a different culture to the standard Catholic. You are right though, the Celtic peoples in Britain were Catholic, but their Catholicism was quite different to mainland Europe. The Britons and Irish blended aspects of their old Celtic religion with Christianity, and being on an island they were not so influenced by Rome and the Pope, and so their Christianity evolved quite differently. Also the Celtic culture was quite different to the mainland generally, so I thought it deserved recognition.

[PseRamesses]

That sounds fair, but I was under the impression that the Celts of Britain were Catholic during this time? Or what do you mean by "Celtic"? And can the Jewish & Heretic religions be used for anything?
IMO the celtic catholic parts of the Brittish Isles are uniquely different and I agree with Trashaholic on this.

[QUOTE=wilpuri]This I don't understand, why Scandinavian paganism only in Finland!?! By Scandinavian paganism, I meant the religion of the Vikings, it is a pagan religion after all... So either that's the misunderstanding or then I'm lost. And yes, I think it would be fair to have Finland in the same culture/religion as the Baltic factions.
A simple misunderstanding. I belive there will be no Scandinavian pagans but viking pagans and the Finns belongs to the baltic pagan part.


The Russian factions should probably also belong to a different religion... But I don't know about the tribes EC researched, some of them had Baltic gods according to EC.
Agree. It´s a shame that he deleted all his posts and closed our access to his work that he had done for this mod. I´ve mailed him a couple of times in search of an explanation but he has never answered. It´s a shame since I appreciated his work and him personally.

[PseRamesses]

FROM NORSEMAN

Hello everybody. As PseRamesses said, my PC has crashed. I'm working on
the problem, but meanwhile I can only read posts as a "guest" on a
university PC. It won't allow me to log on, due to some security settings.

As for CULTURES, we only have these:
CATHOLIC
ORTHODOX
PAGAN
MUSLIM
and possibly also JEW

I've never tried changing a culture into appearing as another one, but
I've read it is doable. Hopefully VikingHorde knows more about this.

CATHOLIC we will of course keep. I think PAGAN will be used by the
vikings, and I think we should keep ORTHODOX as this will come in handy if
we make a later campaign that starts around 950-1000.

That leaves us with MUSLIM, and possibly also JEW. I think we should
reserve MUSLIM for the Baltic/Finnish pagans.

Regarding the CATHOLIC Celtics/Anglo-Saxons/Frankish; please keep in mind
that we can make quite faction unique TECH-trees and units within the same
culture, and thus distinguish them this way. We may however be able to use
the JEW culture for this. There might be a problem with this though. Each
culture has a number of strategy AIs. For example, from the top of my
head, a MUSLIM faction can be assigned either "MUSLIM_PEACEFULL",
"MUSLIM_DEVOUT" or "MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST". You will find similar settings
for the different cultures, except JEW!

I simply don't know if you can assign, let's say "CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST"
to a "JEW'ish" faction. And if you can without the game crashing, how well
the AI will handle it. These are things we need to get tested, or maybe
some experienced modder know the answer.

No matter what though, there will be at least two groups sharing the
CATHOLIC culture. Either

CATHOLIC: Celtics & Anglo-Saxons JEW: Frankish
or
CATHOLIC: Celtics & Frankish JEW: Anglo-Saxons
or
CATHOLIC: Anglo-Saxons & Frankish JEW: Celtics

IMO, maybe it would be best to use the JEW culture, if useable, to
separate the Frankish factions(including the later Normans) from the
British?

[thrashaholic]

IMO, for the time-frame of the campaign we are doing at the moment we simply don't need the orthodox religion as the catholic and orthodox churches only split in 1054, before then they were one church. So, for this campaign, we could have the following culture/religions:

Viking pagan
Baltic pagan
Celtic
Christian

and then for any later campaign (after the catholic/orthodox split) we could do away with the Celtic culture and replace it with Orthodox.

Problem solved ~:)

[PseRamesses]

IMO, for the time-frame of the campaign we are doing at the moment we simply don't need the orthodox religion as the catholic and orthodox churches only split in 1054, before then they were one church.

You´re quite right about that. This is why I´d like some other paganism in the east, maybee russian pagans?


So, for this campaign, we could have the following culture/religions:

Viking pagan
Baltic pagan
Celtic
Christian

and then for any later campaign (after the catholic/orthodox split) we could do away with the Celtic culture and replace it with Orthodox.

Shrude planning m8! ~:pimp:

[Sebastian Seth]

The Finns = Baltic Pagans - Sounds right ~:)

[wilpuri]

Although the great schism occured only in 1054, there were significant differences between the eastern church and the western church, and they did compete for souls. However, I think one type of Christianity will do for this mod, since it doesn't really extend into the nordic power struggles between Sweden & Novgorod, with Pagan Finland and the Baltic stuck in between. If I recall correctly, the Khazar Kagnate has a majority of Jews in mtw, do they have any distinct "personality"? Or do rebs have that at all?

[PseRamesses]

So, the Fury of the Northmen mod has found it´s natural, historical and appropriate ending campaign-year - 1054 AD! The search for the start year goes on!

[Sebastian Seth]

So, the Fury of the Northmen mod has found it´s natural, historical and appropriate ending campaign-year - 1054 AD! The search for the start year goes on!

Well, if you wan't to play svear or gotar in sweden, you should move
the end date about 200 years. Otherwise the start will be about 800 AD
and that will reduce the provinces holded by svear, gotar and novogrod.
It will increase the provinces held by norway, danes and finns. By that
time the swedish had conquered their own backyard and harashed
some cities in europe and baltic. But if the mod is made historicaly
accurate at that start date the finns should love it. ~:)

Do you know who ruled Birka before svear?
Who really destroyed Birka and Sigtuna?
Who really ruled novogrod?
If the ruler of novgorod is svear why is he attacking against svear?
Why does wilpuri really have swedish name and why doesn't he like
finnish nationalists who say that finnish shouldn't be forced to
speak swedish? ~;)

The swedish history was rewritten after they lost finland to russia. The
swedish history is not so bright. The swedish living in gotar are proud
of their history and are keen to seperate themself from svear. The
finnish history is also rewriten by swedish. You should use norwegian
sagas, english stories, danish stories and common sense to find out
what really happened. for example geological findings, latin descriptions,
hebrew descriptions together tell very different story. :wall:

Are the svear or gotar going to start as christian?
How about england?
Is there a list of factions that are in?

@Wilpuri
http://www.suomalaiset.org/PDF/jaastarautaan.pdf

[wilpuri]

SS,

I've been researching this subject for long enough to have come across some of the most ridiculous claims. Why Nationalist-written history is to be trusted even less, is because it is written with a clear bias in mind.


Why does wilpuri really have swedish name and why doesn't he like
finnish nationalists who say that finnish shouldn't be forced to
speak swedish?


Umm... If you read some of their articles, you will understand why I dispise these ultimately idiotic people. I won't get into that, but if you actually think these people have even heard of common sense and have any touch with reality, you need a reality check. These people are utterly disgusting. Frankly, I couldn't give a flying fuck whether we learn Swedish in schools or not. I'm actually against on a personal level.

I'm not going to buy into this nationalistic bullshit that most of Central and northern Europe was finno-ugric territory during the early stone-age or whatever. Being a patriot is great, but being a patriot to the extent that you accept anything and everything by nationalistic sources is just being naive. I suggest you read some books by Matti Huurre, for example, 9000 vuotta suomen esihistoriaa. He knows what he is talking about.

[PseRamesses]

SS,
I´m getting seriously worried about the ultra-right-wing ideas you have a tendency to go with. Please refrain from this in the future, ok? I very much appreciate the boost your appearence have made to this mod but this forum is NOT a forum for alternate or speculative history.

:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: V A R N I N G ! :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:
One thing that I disgust is nationalists and their warped view on the real life and their so called claims in history. I urge this group to refrain from any more posts from dubious sources or should I demand that all posters should state their sources when posting to avoid this? Let´s work with the main stream history, well documented and accepted by most people, ok!? I don´t want to repeat this twice! And please be grown-up about this reprimand. I choose to make this statement, here and now in front of this community, that I will personally hunt down and terminate ANY nationalist infiltration of this great mod.

[Sebastian Seth]

I'm not a right wind nationalist. I'm actualy right in the middle. See there's
swedish minority in finland (5% of population) and there was a period
in finnish history when swedish destroyed a lot of finnish history. The
swedish population in finland where masters and the finnish population
where the workers. In that time the swedish where practising severe
elitism in finland. Some of them even succested that finnish language
should be wiped out because it was uncivilized and it should be replaced
whit swedish. This is political history, a thing that swedish would like
to disapier. This is like :wall: when every time I succest that
there might be something else than the swedish people have written
wilpuri states it's nationalistic shit and not true.

I say before: (its above.)
"You should use norwegian sagas, english stories, danish stories
and common sense to find out what really happened.
for example geological findings, latin descriptions,
hebrew descriptions together tell very different story."

Cant you read??? where does it say read nationalistic shit??? it does not!!!
It says read something else than swedish text, is everything else
nationalistic? Is swedish history the only right history? If it is then why
recruit researcers when some swedish priest can write it all the way
it fits and sounds nice? Did the faraos in live 1200 years becouse it
says so on their pyramids or did the next farao wipe out the text?
I succested like it reads above; to use other sources than swedish and
common sense. :furious3:

And the book; 9000 suomen esihistoriaa by Matti Huurre.
I have read it, its right on the right side of my mouse
at the moment. Its published '90 and
is the 4th edition and its a good book but it does not tell about
finno-ugric people it tells about the geolocigal findigs in finland.
not in sweden!!! in finland, modern finland!!! Are you saying that
the same people who saled all over baltic and finland. traveled
all the way to north to hunt and fish did just go pass sweden
like there where red sign on every shore saying; this coast is reserved
for swedish please go hunt and fish elsewhere? Theres more
books to read i think? :furious3:

And I didn't say that finno-ugric ruled the north europe. This you have
probably read from somewhere else. You should probably read the
articles about genetics of finland and lates articles of language
scientists. This might help you unterstand what is the situation
now and you could then start drawing the big picture instead of
digging small bites of information from all around. When you have the
big picture its easier to either confirm or dismiss the small bites.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Theres to kinds of nationalism in finland; the finnish and
the swedish. At the moment you're exercising another
and blaming me for another. I don't rewrite history and
I don't believe everything what is written. I don't blindly
follow anything and I can admit that my nation can
do horrible things in horrible atmosphere. Can u say the same?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These nationalistic matters are taking time from real issues and
i'm tired of em. Offcourse there can be nationalism in history thats
the basic reason countries exist and it's nationalistic to even write
history at all. I didn't read any nationalistic material. I just read the
refrences to older readings and read the translations of the older
readings. And after that I crossreference.

The point of this mail:
1. When we are using swedish or swedish minded sources we should
keep in mind of the political history and the possibility of ethnic
elitism in them.
2. When we are using finnish nationalistic sources we should keep
in mind political history and the possibility of ethnic hatred against
sveans.
3. Archoligical findings can be found only where theres someone looking
for them.
4. Genetics and languages are very valuable source.
5. Common sense is a common and valuable source.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Pse
I'm not driving for alternate or speculative history. I'm driving
for the fact based history. I'm just stating that there could
be a very narrow view of the facts and we should be causes
about where the facts come from.

@Wilpuri
Sorry about the comment I made about your mothers language
and your name. It's common in my family and we all are mixed
blood of swedish, norwegian, karelian, kveen and jam. And on
top of it I carry the name of the man who adopted my father.
So I ain't so sensitive about comments made to my ancestors
and often laugh at them. I didn't realize you would be offended
by it and i'm sorry.

[PseRamesses]

I'm not a right wind nationalist. I'm actualy right in the middle. See there's swedish minority in finland (5% of population) and there was a period in finnish history when swedish destroyed a lot of finnish history.
I know all about it and I´m ashamed for this part of my countrys history and the appauling things my countrymen did to the Finnish population.


I say before: (its above.)
"You should use norwegian sagas, english stories, danish stories
and common sense to find out what really happened.
for example geological findings, latin descriptions,
hebrew descriptions together tell very different story."
I agree with this 100%. I´ve actually used Swedish sources mainly from the archaeological department but never for other nations. Whaen I research other factions I research the domestically produced evidence and try to verify it with international sources.


Cant you read??? where does it say read nationalistic shit??? it does not!!!"

Well, you did post some dubious theories a while back which got Wilpuri ticked off, right? But it was this statement that blew my top; "Why does wilpuri really have swedish name and why doesn't he like finnish nationalists who say that finnish shouldn't be forced to speak swedish?"


These nationalistic matters are taking time from real issues and i'm tired of em. Offcourse there can be nationalism in history thats
the basic reason countries exist and it's nationalistic to even write history at all. I didn't read any nationalistic material. I just read the refrences to older readings and read the translations of the older readings. And after that I crossreference.
We stand on common ground on this and we seem to research things in the same way and I belive you have done a good job at this thus far. When It comes to nationalism getting twisted and warped I just wanted to make shure this doesn´t happen to this mod.



1. When we are using swedish or swedish minded sources we should
keep in mind of the political history and the possibility of ethnic
elitism in them.
2. When we are using finnish nationalistic sources we should keep
in mind political history and the possibility of ethnic hatred against
sveans.
3. Archoligical findings can be found only where theres someone looking
for them.
4. Genetics and languages are very valuable source.
5. Common sense is a common and valuable source.
1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Agree
4. Agree
5. Agree

There´s really no need for you to be furious m8! I didn´t accuse you of beeing right-winged just that you where ventilating thoose kind of ideas. I did ask to take my reprimand in the right way since I knew in advance it might be based on a possible misunderstanding.
Firstly: I´m totally confidant, by your last 2 posts, that you share the common ground and objectivity with the rest of the crew which is important since our third "objective" with the FotN mod is "to portray the viking age in the most authentic and accurate way we can".
Secondly: I appreciate you enthusiasm for this mod and the hard work and private hours you´ve put into it. Your work and initiative has also resulted in a re-work of the Finnish area and a better solution in this area than we had before.
Thirdly: If you´re offended by my "accusations" I´m truly sorry. My sole intentions were to keep the "wrong" kind of nationalism out of the mod. So now that we have cleared out this misunderstanding I do hope that we can move on with our collaboration.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Pse
I don't think you should be ashamed for your countrymen. It's not like
you where masterminding it. And actualy the swedish did help finns
at later time. In the war against russia there was great fear that
the russians will exterminate the finns from the world like they did
to inkeri. And there was a systematic moving of finns to sweden so
there could be finns after the russia exterminated finland
(there was believe that we would get overrunned by the army
witch was many times bigger than our whole population). I believe
theres about 400 000 "svenskfinns" in sweden and about 20
is related to me. And two of them are on the same unit in army
(den är obligatorisk i finland för alla finne man över 18 år).

And your probably right about the part that got wilpuri
on his toes. If I'm guessing right he is an "finlandssvenskar"
and they are usualy not happy to talk about that period,
because of the terrible history. And they are more
sensitive about it than finns generaly. The nationalistic sites
are seeking and reporting every priviledge "finlandssvenskar"
have and every little thing "finlandssvenskar" have ever done
wrong. For example they raport how "finlandssvenskar" infantry
did rout in WWII, but they don't raport anything about the aid
finnish had from sweden in winterwar. This is an oppositing sides;

Fennomans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennoman
Svecomans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svecoman

but back to the point:
did you find anything like "kaskeaminen" "Kaski" "Kvenland" "Kveen"
"uisko" "ukko" "land of women" "cajani" "cajan" "religional monuments"
or anything that points that the would be Kveens in sweden. I know
they had some settlements in near tornio lulea and they where
hunter-gatherers who travelled long distanses (to norway, etc).
I'm seeking if theres any base that they would have lived in
southern coast as well? In period that the mod starts or earlier.
Or mayby they did trade in that area. the religion is also good
way to look at it. was there any different version of paganism in
that area?

[wilpuri]

I am half Finlandssvensk, but as a Finn you should know, that it doesn't make me any less finnish. I am not sensitive about anything that can be backed by believable facts, but when it reads something like "Ruotsalaiset barbaari "sivistäjät" tuhosivat suomalaisen kulttuurin joka oli paljon kehittyneempi jne jne" then I simply don't trust that source, since it cannot stay unemotional and maintain its obejctivity on the subject. I haven't been offended by anything you have said so far, since I really don't care what you might think of me and my bilingual heritage. And to suggest in anyway that I am a svecoman, waiting to be awarded the freudenthal medal, or that I am striving to maintain compulsory swedish in schools, then you are wrong. Language is not an issue for me for I speak fluent Finnish and fluent Swedish (and fluent English for that matter), so I see it as a strength, not something I should be ashamed of.

Also, to claim that I have used Swedish minded sources is absolute BS. Which source, that I have given to you, is swedish minded if I may ask? Also, in the beginning of this thread, I said, that I will only use sources that fit into the generally accepted course of history! Good luck trying to change the history of the Nordic countries. I'm off to school. I'll write more about this later.

[Sebastian Seth]

There´s really no need for you to be furious m8! I didn´t accuse you of beeing right-winged just that you where ventilating thoose kind of ideas. I did ask to take my reprimand in the right way since I knew in advance it might be based on a possible misunderstanding.

Sorry, i've got bad temper. I get angry in a second and calm down
in 30 minutes. This is a kveen heritage that is very hard keep under.
But it's not to worry, it doesn't include real hate and passes as
things move along. It's mentality thing. Northern Fury. I can't
really explane it better, but theres lots of people like me in finland.



Firstly: I´m totally confidant, by your last 2 posts, that you share the common ground and objectivity with the rest of the crew which is important since our third "objective" with the FotN mod is "to portray the viking age in the most authentic and accurate way we can".

Yes, sincerely I do.



Secondly: I appreciate you enthusiasm for this mod and the hard work and private hours you´ve put into it. Your work and initiative has also resulted in a re-work of the Finnish area and a better solution in this area than we had before.

I have high expectation of this mod and I am only happy to help.



Thirdly: If you´re offended by my "accusations" I´m truly sorry. My sole intentions were to keep the "wrong" kind of nationalism out of the mod. So now that we have cleared out this misunderstanding I do hope that we can move on with our collaboration.

Allready forgotten. I do have habit of throung ideas on the table that
may seem absurd, but I do leave them open for debate. It's probably
this combined with my temper and argumentative nature that takes
it on the level of "verbal rock throwing contest". But I needed to
clear the nationalist accusations since they came up second time.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Wilpuri

I didn't say you are svecoman did I? If I did I'm sorry I was little angry
about the nationalistic label I you where giving me. The point was to make
clear that there is two kinds of bias moving around. You're surely
aware of the swedish rewriting of finnish history and it is this that
gets me worried. As it is commonly accepted and moustly untrue.
However pse just informed that he is aware of this and its under
control. I think you have lot more sources than I have seen and
you knock ideas out very fast. This is always like red robe to a
bull to me. What comes to your "bilingual heritage" i'm fine with
it. You're constantly twisting my words to look like i have problem
whit finlandssvenskar. Could it be that you have problem about
me not being finlandssvenskar? I'm I a nationalist and racist now?

I wasn't sure about you mainly because you first left out the finns
who lived in the area that sweedish conquered and included karelians
and inkeri. This sounds very wierd to my point of view and
is very similar to svecoman point of view. Then you reacted very
strongly to nationalistic site. Can you see from my point of view?

Some links in english:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/rastas/eng_carel.html
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/christy/32/frnjtre.html
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/

Some links in finnish:
http://finnpro2000.tripod.com/kainuunmaa.htm
http://www.greywolves.org/artikkelit/2002-08-25-Rautakautinen_Karjala.html
http://www.utu.fi/agricola/hist/kronologia/1100.html
http://www.uwasa.fi/~i80460/hist2.html
http://www.lappeenranta.fi/museot/Museo/index.html
http://www.nba.fi/NATMUS/MUSEUM/Opetus/index.htm
http://www.ugri.net/002/htm/index.htm
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/hist.html
http://jumala.freeservers.com/yhteiso.htm
http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/suomenhistoria/index.htm
http://www.co.jyu.fi/tarvaalalaukaa/historia/g.htm
http://www.narva.sci.fi/amaijala/mattikur.html
http://jumalasuomi.tripod.com/terra_feminarum.htm
http://www.finnica.fi/suomi/index.htm
http://www.turku.fi/museo/historia/keskiaika.htm
http://www.pyhajarvi.fi/historia/esihistoria/
http://www.compuline.fi/ComDocs/Suomi/uushlp/html/fin-6s9t.htm
http://idefix.taide.turkuamk.fi/~iluukkon/kalliotaide/suomi/suomi.html
http://www.taivaansusi.net/historia/sigtuna.html
http://www.taivaansusi.net/inkunaabeli/hopeatie.html
http://www.inkeri.spb.ru/historia.html

There's some from you and some you have found, I tried to filter
nationalistic sites off.

[PseRamesses]

@Crew,
I think we can put aside the discussion on our nationalistic policies since we now know we all share a united view on this topic which is beneficial to the mod and a continous collaboration.

@SS,
Good link to Berkley. I went skimmed through their database and found a whole heap of sagas and docs I didn´t have, thanks! Regarding your Q about the Kveens homelands I have very little info on the Kveens. They are often mentioned in different Scandinavian text but I have no info on cities/ villages, techs, industries etc at all... hmm strange.

IMHO the Swedish "cover-up" of Finnish pre-Swedish history I interpret as a fact that my countrymen found strong evidence that the Finns had a thriving community before they arrived and I wouldn´t be a bit surprised if early "Swedes" actually were, at least to some extent, finno-ugiric. That would explain the total lack of any document before the first Swedish settlements/ colonization and conquests. Later on both Gusatv Vasa and Gustav Adolf re-wrote the Swedish history completely to prove their ancestry to Adam etc.

"To write history one must be more
than a man, since the author that holds
the pen of this great justiciary should be
free from all pre-occupation of vanity, or
interest" q: Napoleon Bonaparte

[wilpuri]

What comes to your "bilingual heritage" i'm fine with
it. You're constantly twisting my words to look like i have problem
whit finlandssvenskar. Could it be that you have problem about
me not being finlandssvenskar? I'm I a nationalist and racist now?

I wasn't sure about you mainly because you first left out the finns
who lived in the area that sweedish conquered and included karelians
and inkeri. This sounds very wierd to my point of view and
is very similar to svecoman point of view. Then you reacted very
strongly to nationalistic site. Can you see from my point of view?


Ok, first of all, you really shouldn't find it surprising that I get a bit cranky when you use suomalaisuuden liitto as a source. If they were only in opposition of compulsory swedish in schools, I wouldn't have anything against them, but they are utterly hostile towards swedish speakers in our country. It is people like them who draw the line between Finns. I personally see no difference between a Finn and a Swedish speaking Finn. But these people clearly do, and they say for example, that swedish speakers were cowards during the wars. You must realize, that this is the ultimate insult towards my grand father (god rest his soul) who fought from 39-44 and didn't see mcuh of his family at all. He was at the very front, fighting for his nation, and for what? So that a bunch of bigots can discredit his bravery and call him a coward? He has several medals awarded for his "kaukopartio" action far behind enemy lines. I have stacks of letters written by him to his sister from the war, and not once, not once did he complain. He did his duty like anyone else, and he is a hero in my opinion, a true patriot. It saddens me to the outmost extent, that some people try to divide our nation like that. But hey, its not bad, since according to them its not the swedish-speaker's fault that he or she is swedish-speaking, and what's more, it can be cured! These people are not racist, because we are not of a different ethnicity (although SL would probably want you to believe we are).

FROM SL:

In the Continuation War, no more bravery was to be expected from the Swedish-speakers, ready to save their own skin at the cost of Finns. Several references to this can be found in the series of books on the Finnish War 1941-1945 published by the War History Bureau of the Department of War History. Belittling Finns' military achievements has been customary enough in Swedish circles, as well as attributing the outcome of the War entirely to Russian benevolence. In spite of requests, hardly any food was supplied by Sweden during the war.


According to every history book I have read, it was the Winter War that UNITED the Finnish nation, regrdless of language, leftist or rightist. Sweden also happened to be one of the greatest supplier of aid to Finland during the war... I don't see what they try to achieve with this sort of propaganda, but it's disgusting. If you still wonder why I reacted strongly to this, then I give up.

:surrender:

Yes, I know the Swedish administration did rewrite history (to what extent, remains unknown) in the 17th century. I have explained SEVERAL times why I did not include the western Finns as a playable faction: THERE WAS ONLY GOING TO BE ONE FACTION. In my opinion, based on my research, I though the faction should be Karelia. Also, the reason I did not discuss the Kvens much, is because they are outside of the originally intended area.

Now, I would like to know how you would go about changing my flawed conclusions based on my flawed research and my svecoman views.

The two first links you posted, I have posted them in this thread as my resources, TO YOU, as well as the taivaansusi.net sites. What's more, after looking through those sites, I have visited everyone of them during my research. Tell me what's wrong with my research, and my conclusions and we might discuss it.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Wilpuri
The svecoman, etc. Was supposed to be past form (menneessä muodossa),
there might be misunderstanding in translation. I do not share the
views of SL, like I said before. I'm tired if repeating, please read
mails above. About war history; the SL is just spotliting on one unit
of many that didn't attack on command and rout. It's not commonly
talked about but the finns did rout in talvisota. Of course elite units
like "kaukopartio" didn't, but the normal conscript did. And the SL
theory of breaking of mannerheim line is nonsence. Well I have
said this all before and its not really issue. We both know the
truth and the board haves some of it too, can we leave it now?

About links; Yes there is some you have posted before, I don't remember
where they all come from. The point is to find those not yeat found and
crossreference it to what other researcers have. Thats why I post
what I found, expecialy the sites in english. I would love to take
look at more of your links too. I'm not hunting recognion, I'm hunting
knowledge.

@Pse
The kveens seem to be mysterios to some extend. The roman and
islamic sources I have found seem to mix up the finns to baltic finns,
shamish and germanics. On their view of world finland and sweden
are islands on the edge of the world. Later they place kvenland
to the area of sums and jems. Theres some movement from sweden
to the coast of finland and i'm making a guess that this could be
two way movement and the borders wheren't so clear at the
time. So the mixup of people on both side of coast could be
likely. Now what i'm searching is religional or grammatical similarities.
It's not likely to find places with finno-ugric names or traces of
conquest. More like weapons in graves, same kind of archeological
findings, references in sagas, etc. Also the way they buried their
dead and how far it was from the place they lived. A reference map
with place names would be nice too. And I time line in english if
there is any good ones. And old place names are usefull too.
There was (in some saga) notation of the swedish and finnish kings
having some argumenting. And its not likely that they sailed over
the bothnia sea just to have argument. What I'm looking is the
point of contact. This is likely on land, but where?

[Sebastian Seth]

@Wilpuri
I'm not saying your research is flawed, but it didn't have enough weight
on it. Now there is coming two finn factions and finland is not going
to be the first province to take when playing svear or novgorod.
I don't think I have to remind you that the area of modern finland
wasn't conquered at the period of the game at all. I'm allso stating
that the swedes or novgorod wasn't superior race tecnologicaly.
To my view it doesn't matter is the arrowhead iron or bone when
it hits you in the ass. The conquest should be done trough tactics
and good usage of the units you have. The streight of the army
is in numbers and in the winsdom of it's leader. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[PseRamesses]

@Wilpuri & SS,
Drop the discussion on WWII, IMO it´s not relevant. FYI I too had a grandfather that served the entire war on the Swe/ Fin border with aid and rescue missions in Finnish territory on numerous occasions and the stories he told me about the Finns, both sides, and their bravery, stamina and endurance was astonishing. Let´s concetrate on FotN.

The border on Kveenland isn´t that important, if we have room for yet another reb-prov in Finland we can solve that problem when we get there.
Decide weather the 2nd finn-fac should be Sums or Jems. Make a kingslist (if possible), names - males and females, unique buildings, special units although I belive pretty much of Wlpuris units for Karelia could be used. I support SS theory that the "Finns" should have a stealthy, fast, highly manoverable unit preferably with a double weaponry like spear/ sword/ axe or bow/ sword/ axe etc and with none or light armour. Ofcourse we can mak the Finnish provs highly rebellious to simulate the fact that she wasn´t conquered during this time-frame.
Also a research on trade-goods, mines or other natural resources plus some insight on the terrains features of each province for the battle- and castle-maps would be great.