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Norseman
12-27-2003, 16:25
There are many very promising mods in the making. Some have a completely new setting (like NTW, METW, HTW), while others focus on improving the original MTW (MedMod, Re Berengario's mod), but I can't see anyone improving the Viking Invasion add on.

I would like to make a face lift of VI, but only if I can get some help. Maybe a modding team can be started? It won't need to be bigger than 2-3 persons, as the plans I have won't require as much work as many other mods. Most graphics are already in the game. Basicly there are two major tasks:
-A new strategy map
-Messing around with the various txt files.
My problem is that although I consider myself to be fairly experienced by now with the MTW txt files, I'm not much of a graphics modder. So I need help on that strategy map. Someone with experience on Wellington's LMM would be great, but not necessary...


Here follows a list of some of the changes I had in mind. They are of course all open for discussion.

1) Completely new strategy map, using a satellite image(have found a few suitable ones). It will include 5-6 regions in southern Norway, and maybe 4-5 in Denmark. Denmark will be connected on land to Germany, and all coastline regions(like Normandy and Friesland) will be playable (maybe also regions along the Seine river - as the Vikings raided Paris).

2) Factions:
*I will split the vikings into the Norse and the Danes, as they were often bitter enemies. Denmark was under one king, and were the ones to invade England in 860 with a grand army. The Norse Vikings were more focused on Ireland rather than England.
Norway was split into many regions, each lead by its Jarl. But a Jarl from the southern tip of Norway gradually managed to become King of the country, after bloody battles. A player can start as Jarl of this faction.

*The French and the Germans will be added, but only as "background" factions. They will get "safe" regions inland. By "safe" i mean that they will only have "one way" borders to the coastline regions. This will ensure that the Danes must keep garrisons to prevent germany from attacking, but at the same time the Danes must stay focused on taking England to win. Not sure how the AI will handle this though.

*More Irish factions
There were many Irish factions, and they all wanted to rule Ireland Thus the Norse never met gathered opposition early on, but rather many to ally with.

3)New tech tree:
*A new and more historical one for the Vikings.
*If one of the Viking factions take a coastline province from the French or Germany, they will no longer have the regular viking one, but rather the one of the French and Germans, thus the Normans may appear in some form http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
This can be achieved by using "fake tradegoods".

4)Give the units a face lift.

I neither have the time nor the knowledge to do this alone,
so, anybody want to help?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Lazul
12-27-2003, 19:22
Damn it, we swedes never get to be in any mods =) (exept WesWs)

How about making the map bigger and include the whole of Scandinavia? and add a Svea faction?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Lord Of Storms
12-27-2003, 19:49
Quote[/b] (Lazul @ Dec. 27 2003,12:22)]Damn it, we swedes never get to be in any mods =) (exept WesWs)

How about making the map bigger and include the whole of Scandinavia? and add a Svea faction?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Hey have you seen the last update to NTW? The Swedes are in and have 12 unique new units cant get more in then that...LOS
P.S. Some of the newer units added
KGL Line Infantry
KGL Dragoon
KGL HUssar
KGL Grenadier
Indelta Infantry
Varvade Veldjagare
Svea Lifgarde
Grenadier of the Life Brigade
Andra Lifgarde
Varvade Infantry
Indelta Dragoons
Mornerska Hussars
Indelta HUssar
Lifregements-Brigadens
Laetta Dragoner
Konungens Lifdrabantcorps
Portugese Cacadores
and more

Norseman
12-28-2003, 00:57
Quote[/b] ]
Damn it, we swedes never get to be in any mods =) (exept WesWs)
How about making the map bigger and include the whole of Scandinavia? and add a Svea faction?


Lazul, if you join me in makeing the mod, your opinion on what should be included counts just as much as mine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Norseman
12-30-2003, 21:54
Any Swedes(or anybody else) that can tell me anything about how Sweden can best be divided into regions during the Viking age?

Any suggestions on factions?

Maps with viking-age names for Northern Europe?

If someone can help me with this, I'll do my best to add a swedish faction or two and expand the map to also include Finland, Novgorod, the Baltics, Prussia and Pomerania.

Norseman
12-30-2003, 21:57
Quote[/b] ]
You can also contact with member name Grell, he said something about that he added new provinces to VI camp map, and also added new factions. This is what he said:


Thanks, EC. I've done that now. Even if I can't use his strat map, those extra Irish factions will be great.

Norseman
01-06-2004, 00:25
Really no Swedes out there that feel neglected by CA in VI? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

If someone can help me with just a bit of info on Sweden during the viking age, I will expand the map eastwards and include a Svea faction or two.

How can Sweden best be divided into regions during the Viking age? What were they named?

Any suggestions on factions?

PseRamesses
01-06-2004, 13:02
Quote[/b] (Norseman @ Jan. 05 2004,17:25)]Really no Swedes out there that feel neglected by CA in VI? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

If someone can help me with just a bit of info on Sweden during the viking age, I will expand the map eastwards and include a Svea faction or two.

How can Sweden best be divided into regions during the Viking age? What were they named?

Any suggestions on factions?
Hi Norseman,
I´m a 39 y.o historybuff from Stockholm. Maybee I can help you with the names and regions for the Swedish fac? E-mail me at pse@brevet.se

I´d also would like to see the whole viking period covered with more factions, provinces etc. I´d like to see the Norwegian take care of Färöya, Shetland, Island and Ireland. The Danes main focus should be on middle and south-eastern Britain. The Swedes should focus on the Baltic states/ shores and inland Russia, after all they formed that country and even giving it it´s name.

Happy to help out with what ever I can.

Hross af Guttenburg
01-06-2004, 21:14
I think the most obvious areas are the Svealand (Svithiod) and Götaland, not forgetting that Skåne in the south was Danish and originally before Lejre the seat of the Danish kings. You might do well to include the island of Gotland also, which was an essential cultural and geographic location to the viking age. Uppland (now more or less the Norrland) might be another territory, it was wilderness and generally Lappish or uncolonised, NB 'Upplandssaga.'
Strength & Honour

chris
01-07-2004, 02:06
I mod, but not good enough to offer my services, but I can give you my opinion coming from a BIG fan of the vikings/celts


Definatly xtra Irish factions

Like ramessees said, the whole of the Viking era...I am looking to throw together a mod for the vikings and the Algonquins in NA. Thats the central Idea of my camp, but in yours Just having Iceland, and then the tip of greenland, and then Newfoundland (Vinland) would be nice. If you could make it so only a certain class of viking ships....JArbardis....could sail that far, it would make it so you oculdnt just rush over to NA right away....that would keep the time frame half accurate. I say this, beaucse i watched the NG channels special on the vikings....and they said that in the algonquins, the VIkings met their match. That irritated me, though in a way its true. They were stealthier...etc..then the vikings, but it made me want to try it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Norseman
01-09-2004, 19:43
Quote[/b] ]
Hi Norseman,
I´m a 39 y.o historybuff from Stockholm. Maybee I can help you with the names and regions for the Swedish fac? E-mail me at pse@brevet.se

I´d also would like to see the whole viking period covered with more factions, provinces etc. I´d like to see the Norwegian take care of Färöya, Shetland, Island and Ireland. The Danes main focus should be on middle and south-eastern Britain. The Swedes should focus on the Baltic states/ shores and inland Russia, after all they formed that country and even giving it it´s name.

Happy to help out with what ever I can.

Hi PseRamesses
I'll contact you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


Quote[/b] ]
I think the most obvious areas are the Svealand (Svithiod) and Götaland, not forgetting that Skåne in the south was Danish and originally before Lejre the seat of the Danish kings. You might do well to include the island of Gotland also, which was an essential cultural and geographic location to the viking age. Uppland (now more or less the Norrland) might be another territory, it was wilderness and generally Lappish or uncolonised, NB 'Upplandssaga.'
Strength & Honour

I'll need more regions than that, maybe 10, but it's a good start. Thanks Hross af Guttenburg.


Quote[/b] ]
I mod, but not good enough to offer my services, but I can give you my opinion coming from a BIG fan of the vikings/celts


Definatly xtra Irish factions

Like ramessees said, the whole of the Viking era...I am looking to throw together a mod for the vikings and the Algonquins in NA. Thats the central Idea of my camp, but in yours Just having Iceland, and then the tip of greenland, and then Newfoundland (Vinland) would be nice. If you could make it so only a certain class of viking ships....JArbardis....could sail that far, it would make it so you oculdnt just rush over to NA right away....that would keep the time frame half accurate. I say this, beaucse i watched the NG channels special on the vikings....and they said that in the algonquins, the VIkings met their match. That irritated me, though in a way its true. They were stealthier...etc..then the vikings, but it made me want to try it

chris, I was thinking about making the mod an overwrite of the original MTW and thus be able to play Glorious Achievements. In such a case including Island and Greenland would be great GA goals for a Norse faction. However, GAs won't work before or after the MTW time period (1087-1453) and I have a limited number of available regions, so at the moment I think Greenland, Island etc. won't be included. Sorry.

But of course, if you help me make the mod your opinion may change a thing or two on what should be included in the mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif You really don't need to be an expert-modder (I'm not), just wordpad and a few extra hours now and then.

Norseman
01-10-2004, 01:25
I have taken some images while testing the strategy map landscape image (MapTex.tga).
(Note: to reduce them in size(in kB), I made them of poor quality)

Strategy map (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/MapTexEx.jpg)
Denmark (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Denmark.jpg)
The Baltic (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Baltics.jpg)
Southern England (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/England.jpg)
Norway (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Norway.jpg)
Scotland (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Scotland.jpg)
Sweden (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Sweden.jpg)

So, what do people think?

PseRamesses
01-10-2004, 01:34
Quote[/b] (Norseman @ Jan. 09 2004,18:25)]I have taken some images while testing the strategy map landscape image (MapTex.tga).
(Note: to reduce them in size(in kB), I made them of poor quality)

Strategy map (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/MapTexEx.jpg)
Denmark (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Denmark.jpg)
The Baltic (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Baltics.jpg)
Southern England (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/England.jpg)
Norway (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Norway.jpg)
Scotland (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Scotland.jpg)
Sweden (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Sweden.jpg)

So, what do people think?
Great maps

A couple of thoughts though. The map looks a bit "warped" and a bit "green", don´t u think?. Couldn´t we make a cut-n-paste job on the old strat map in the orig game? It´s easier to see borders, terrain etc and enhances playability.
Looking forward hearing from ya. I have about 13-17 historically correct regions/ provinces of Sweden. Heroes, kingslist, priests, admirals/ seafarers etc.

Take care

Norseman
01-10-2004, 16:44
Quote[/b] ]
A couple of thoughts though. The map looks a bit "warped" and a bit "green", don´t u think?. Couldn´t we make a cut-n-paste job on the old strat map in the orig game? It´s easier to see borders, terrain etc and enhances playability.

I agree totally. I actually tried that first, but the result was not good. The main problem is the map can only be of one particular size. When I cut out the area from Ireland to Novgorod and Northern Germany to the middle of Norway, I get a very long and narrow rectangle. To match the size the map must have, I then have to stretch the map North-South. This looks very bad. I don't want to make the map keep its original proportions either (by making the bottom of the map look like the background table), because then the regions will be to small. In addition, the original MTW map has very little details (like the Orkneys and Shetlands etc. missing) and the graphics become very poor when the map-piece is resized to the size it must have.

Also keep in mind that the current appearence of this map may be changed. For exemple take a look at what they did with the HTW map. I think I'll try to do something like that, but it's not a priority at the moment. It's much more important to make a map with the regions drawn onto it, so that Komninos can make the background regionmap. That map is the structure I must make the mod around.


Quote[/b] ]
Looking forward hearing from ya. I have about 13-17 historically correct regions/ provinces of Sweden. Heroes, kingslist, priests, admirals/ seafarers etc.

Just what I need Great Consentrate your efforts on those regions now though, those hero-lists will not be important until I have a working beta mod with map, factions, tech-tree and units.

Thanks for your help
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

BTW: did you get my e-mail? I seem to have some problems with my PC...

PseRamesses
01-10-2004, 18:31
Quote[/b] (Norseman @ Jan. 10 2004,09:44)]BTW: did you get my e-mail? I seem to have some problems with my PC...
Yup, got it. I´ll reply there.

Norseman
01-11-2004, 20:09
PseRamesses, I tried to reply to your e-mail, but I only got it in return with the message that it couldn't deliver it. So, I'll reply to you here:


Quote[/b] ]
What´s your timeframe on this project? When do you need the region-list? I can do some research on the Baltic as well so it´s important for me to know.

Timeframe: approximately 800-1080 (same as VI basicly)
When? As soon as you can really... I'm hoping to get the mod finished before Rome TW.

I made a map with suggestions on how to split Scandinavia into regions; look at the image and the list below and tell me what you think...
Regions Map (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Harbour&Trade_Large.jpg)


Sverige 1 Skåne
2 Småland
3 Halland
4 Östergötland
5 Västergötland
6 Ranrike
7 Närike
8 Södermanland
9 Västmanland
10 Uppland Uppsala
11 Värmland
12 Dalarna
13 Västernorrland
14 Jämtland
15 Gotland
Norge 1 Agder
2 Vestfold
3 Vingulmark
4 Trondheimen
5 Firda
6 Hardanger
7 Rygjafylke
Denmark 1 Sjaelland
2 Nord-Jutland
3 Vejle
4 Ribe
5 Sud-Jutland

PseRamesses
01-11-2004, 23:07
Quote[/b] (Norseman @ Jan. 11 2004,13:09)]PseRamesses, I tried to reply to your e-mail, but I only got it in return with the message that it couldn't deliver it.
Sorry Norse, I got a full mailbox. Reply should be in yours by now.

Norseman
01-16-2004, 15:46
Regions map (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/SwedishRegionsOnMaptex_SMALL.jpg)
This is a scetch of how the regions will be on the map. It's not finished, but I will update it as work progress.
Any comments or opinions are very welcome. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif

PS: I have so far used a pink colour to outline the regions, but that didn't look very good when I made a smaller version of the image. I will try to use a wider, red line from now on.

Norseman
02-07-2004, 01:55
As I was drawing regions onto the map we(PseRamesses and I) realized that there wouldn't be enough land to get all the regions we wanted. After all there need to be room for several army stacks, agents, port and castle icons.

So I have reworked the map somewhat. I made England+Ireland a bit wider and then rotated them 8deg clockwise. I then moved Shetland and the Orkneys a bit anti-clockwise so they wouldn't end up too close to the Norwegian coast. I have also made Gotland a bit bigger, and copied a larger image of Isle of Man to the western edge of the map. It will be in a frame, like Rhodes and Malta in the original MTW.

I'm sorry it all takes so much time, but this is my first attempt on map-modding.

Anyway, here it is:Map (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Demonstration.jpg)

If nobody protests I'll start drawing those region borders again...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif

PseRamesses
02-07-2004, 11:16
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ Feb. 07 2004,02:49)]Do you need that much land on the continent? If this should be vikings' world, there should be Iceland and maybe even Greenland on the map. What i mean is that you could leave only coastal regions of the continent and get more space in the north instead. What do you think?

Regards,
EC
Well, that would really be a dream, wouldn´t it. To build the whole viking world we´d have to make a map from Americas east coast to the Caspian sea, from north African coast to the seas north of Scandinavia.
The problem is that regions are getting to small for playability so skipping the western part of the viking explorers was a sacrifice that needed to be done in order to have enough regions playable in Europe.

Lord Zimoa of Flanders
02-07-2004, 12:45
I enjoyed the original VI expansion a lot and must say this mod is looking very promising.
CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Norseman
02-07-2004, 13:19
Quote[/b] ]
I enjoyed the original VI expansion a lot and must say this mod is looking very promising.
CZoF


Thanks But I'm afraid it will take some time before it is finished. If I can only get this campmap done I think it will progress faster though, because I'm much more familiar with the txt files than with the graphics. Everything I do at the moment is new to me...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Norseman
02-07-2004, 13:23
Quote[/b] ]
Quote (Eastside Character @ Feb. 07 2004,02:49)
Do you need that much land on the continent? If this should be vikings' world, there should be Iceland and maybe even Greenland on the map. What i mean is that you could leave only coastal regions of the continent and get more space in the north instead. What do you think?

Regards,
EC

Well, that would really be a dream, wouldn´t it. To build the whole viking world we´d have to make a map from Americas east coast to the Caspian sea, from north African coast to the seas north of Scandinavia.
The problem is that regions are getting to small for playability so skipping the western part of the viking explorers was a sacrifice that needed to be done in order to have enough regions playable in Europe.


In addition to what PseRamesses explained, it should be mentioned that I in the planning stage of this mod considered including at least Iceland, because I wanted to make it possible to play Glorious Achievements. The problem is that GA is not very modable and Iceland was not a very important region when looking at viking expansion and wars. It was more of a safe haven for men, and their families, who were excluded from their Viking society, either because they were disliked by the current King or because they were "bannlyst"(That is, if they had committed a serious crime, they could lose all rights, status and honor in their home region).

So Iceland and Greenland would have been great GA goals, but rather unimportant in a world conquest game.

In addition we have some plans for the continent. As Denmark was a more or less united Kingdom in the year 800, the danish faction will have a much stronger starting position than other vikings. To prevent them from being too strong, we will try to include the Frankish kingdoms as well. They were after all a constant threat, and that is why the Danes built the "Danevirke"(begun in the year 737); a 30 km earthen wall stretching across the narrow Southern Jutland. The plan is to have 3 large regions in Central Europe, one for the French, one for HRE and one for the Poles. These regions will be isolated(They will have no borders so you can't conquer them) to keep these factions alive and serve as money-wells. I think this reflects the situation in these Kingdoms well, as the King had little true control of what was happening in their coastal regions.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

PseRamesses
02-07-2004, 13:45
Quote[/b] (zimoa @ Feb. 07 2004,05:45)]I enjoyed the original VI expansion a lot and must say this mod is looking very promising.
CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Well, I shurley liked the Hellenic Mod so let´s hope we´ll get you as equally exited. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/grouphug.gif

Kaatar
02-07-2004, 14:37
I also think that the map is a little too green. Another thing is because the picture is taken from space, it shows the roundness (couldn't really think of the word) while other maps are just taken from maps that people thought were accurate back then. In a nutshell, I just don't like the way Ireland and Scotland's tops aren't pointing north. We've all grown accustomed to the VI map.

But i think it's a very good project with promise and you should definately go through with it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Lord Zimoa of Flanders
02-07-2004, 14:56
Quote[/b] ]Well, I shurley liked the Hellenic Mod so let´s hope we´ll get you as equally exited
Wish you both good luck on the project,if you need help the HTW-team will gladly provide... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif
CZoF

Norseman
02-07-2004, 15:46
Quote[/b] ]
I also think that the map is a little too green.


Remember that a lot of work remain. At the moment it is not so important how the colours on the map are, that is just cosmetics that can be fixed when everything else with the mod is done. Eventually I hope to make the map look a bit like the one in HTW.
What is important now though is to figure out the region borders, so that the LBM map can be made. Without that map, I can hardly begin on anything else.


Quote[/b] ]
Another thing is because the picture is taken from space, it shows the roundness (couldn't really think of the word)


Not really, read what I did to the map in the last post with the link.


Quote[/b] ]
while other maps are just taken from maps that people thought were accurate back then. In a nutshell, I just don't like the way Ireland and Scotland's tops aren't pointing north. We've all grown accustomed to the VI map.


Have you looked at one of those maps? They hardly look much like the VI map...
Anyway, if you want to play this mod you better get used to a different map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

PseRamesses
02-07-2004, 16:42
Quote[/b] (Kaatar @ Feb. 07 2004,07:37)]I also think that the map is a little too green. Another thing is because the picture is taken from space, it shows the roundness (couldn't really think of the word) while other maps are just taken from maps that people thought were accurate back then. In a nutshell, I just don't like the way Ireland and Scotland's tops aren't pointing north. We've all grown accustomed to the VI map.

But i think it's a very good project with promise and you should definately go through with it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
...maybee you guys can help us out and start a massive search for a really good map on the web. Just send them to Norseman or me. This is the map that we have found that´s as close to the gamemap that we have got. If you guys can do better, Norseman and I, will be really grateful. Get the search going guys I dubble-dare you, no I tripple-dare you

PseRamesses
02-07-2004, 16:46
Quote[/b] (zimoa @ Feb. 07 2004,07:56)]Wish you both good luck on the project,if you need help the HTW-team will gladly provide... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif
CZoF
Just contact Norseman since he´s the initiator and head manager of this mod and just picked me up along the way.

PseRamesses
02-09-2004, 11:47
We´re gonna post some battlemaps from the mod so you guys might wanna keep an eye on this thread as we´ll let you know in advance
And if someone is really good at strategic-maps and wanna help Norseman feel free to drop him a line or post in this thread.

Norseman
02-09-2004, 20:38
Map Update: Scandinavian regions done.
Map (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~eitrheim/Demonstration.jpg)

Hross af Guttenburg
02-10-2004, 02:16
What do the crosses mean? Looks damned good, very representative of the historical reach of the vikings.
NORSEMAN -känner jag dig från 'asatrulore' kanske?

Norseman
02-10-2004, 19:34
Quote[/b] ]
What do the crosses mean?

Crosses are unpasable regions of mountains/wilderness. Will be like Frankland in VI


Quote[/b] ]
Looks damned good, very representative of the historical reach of the vikings.

Thanks Nice to hear, because that is the goal of the mod. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif


Quote[/b] ]
NORSEMAN -känner jag dig från 'asatrulore' kanske?

Probably not, cause I didn't even know about the place until you asked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif I'll take a closer look at it later though, it looked interesting.

Norseman
03-15-2004, 09:24
LoS, this Mod is still active, we're just not posting much. Should this thread be moved to Edit3 as well?

Lord Of Storms
03-15-2004, 18:59
Done, moved to Edit3 you may follow this topic there...LOS

Antalis::
03-22-2004, 07:57
Do you have any screenshots? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Antalis

Norseman
03-22-2004, 11:04
Quote[/b] ]
Do you have any screenshots?


We're working on two things at the moment. I'm planning tech-trees, unit rosters and other background work, while the strat-map is in the hands of PseRamesses. He will do some more changes to it, and when he is done we will hopefully be ready to make the LBM strategy map and post some more screenshots.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

PseRamesses
03-23-2004, 13:11
Just to let you all know that work is in progress as stated in Norsemans post above. We have both been sick, musta been from the mushroms we had in the mead-hall at the latest home-comming party for our victorious raiders.

We had an idea for a speacial feature or unit for this mod but haven´t got around to solve it. I call it The raiding-party and what we would like to do is to make a crusade-unit to raid shore- and inland provinces with rivers from the sea.
The problems are numerous like the hardcoded Crusade-unit, attacking inland provinces that have a river in it from the sea etc etc. If anyone of you brilliant guys can solve this, make suggestions or be of any assistant it would be greatly appreciated and as a reward we offer an invitation to our mead-festival at midsummers-eve. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif

Sir Zack de Caldicot
03-23-2004, 13:35
Now that would be very Intersting Indeed to sea, also vey scary if your the defender though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

PseRamesses
03-23-2004, 13:51
Quote[/b] (Sir Zack de Caldicot @ Mar. 23 2004,06:35)]Now that would be very Intersting Indeed to sea, also vey scary if your the defender though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
That´s the meaning of it but I´m afraid it looks impossible to pull off. That´s why the cry for help since I know that this feature will be a killer.

Sir Zack de Caldicot
03-23-2004, 14:02
Maybe too much of a Killer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Anyway, couldn't renaming the crusade and give it some Viking only units and make only the vikings be able to make them work, possibly include some ships work. Tell me more about what you wnat this crusade to do and I'll do my best

PseRamesses
03-23-2004, 15:04
Quote[/b] (Sir Zack de Caldicot @ Mar. 23 2004,07:02)]Anyway, couldn't renaming the crusade and give it some Viking only units and make only the vikings be able to make them work, possibly include some ships work. Tell me more about what you wnat this crusade to do and I'll do my best
As my man Norseman is the code-hacker he found 4 major obstacles to make this come true:

I) Crusade is defined as a CATHOLIC cultural thing. There are two different solutions for this:
a) Everything related to catholic must be converted to appear pagan, and we must find a replacement for the catholic. However this implies that we can't use the correct strategy AI behavior. That is BARBARIAN_RAIDER for viking factions and CATHOLIC_something for most others.
b) Try to change the Crusade unit into a pagan unit. This is by far the best solution when considering workload. However, I don't know if a faction with the BARBARIAN_RAIDER strategy AI is capable of using a crusade. My guess is that it is not, as it wasn't meant to be.

II) There are 4 regions that are hardcoded to be more likely to attract crusades: Jerusalem, Tripoli, Antioch and Edessa. We don't know where LMM will redestribute these regions on our remade strategy map.

III) The biggest problem though is that to launch a crusade you need a POPE faction in the game.

IV) If we rather try to use the Jihad, which will solve all the above problems, we will have the hardcoded limitation that you can only raid regions you have lost earlier in the game.

What we would like this unit to do is,
1. The raider-unit should work in a satisfactory similar way as the original crusade if possible.
2. The unit should have the ability to travel even seasquares, without the required ships, to reach selected target.
3. The unit should be able to attack inland-provinces IF that region contains a river. Ex: The Swedish raids through Russia.

JAY THE CONQUEROR
03-30-2004, 03:35
HEY NORSEM AN IF U NEED HELP WIT ANY STUFF I CAN HELP OHG YEAH THE MOD LOOKS VERY GOOOD

Norseman
03-30-2004, 09:43
Hi JAY THE CONQUEROR

A little bit of help would be nice Do you have any modding experience, or any other skill you think can be useful?

wilpuri
03-30-2004, 12:13
Do you have any screenies to show us? Good luck with the mod, I'm sure it will be great http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

JAY THE CONQUEROR
03-31-2004, 11:58
Quote[/b] (Norseman @ Mar. 29 2004,16:43)]Hi JAY THE CONQUEROR

A little bit of help would be nice Do you have any modding experience, or any other skill you think can be useful?
i do hav a fair bit of modding experience, but i dont release my stuff cos i probably wouldnt interest anyone, plus i know a dogpile about history and stoof, my msn name is JayDaConqueror@hotmail.com

Polyphemos
04-07-2004, 00:31
I must say I like the sound of this mod, being from the north myself and with a keen interest in the viking era, and I hope you can pull it off. I'm looking forward to some screenshots. Nice division of the Scandinavian regions by the way.

PseRamesses
04-07-2004, 08:11
Quote[/b] (Polyphemos @ April 06 2004,18:31)]I must say I like the sound of this mod, being from the north myself and with a keen interest in the viking era, and I hope you can pull it off. I'm looking forward to some screenshots. Nice division of the Scandinavian regions by the way.
Polyphemos,
Nice to get the aproval of a countryman. Screens are comming. First of all I´d like you to know that both Norse and I are more into this mod for the reason of historical accuracy rather than speed and both of us don´t have unlimited time on our hands to finish this. We are both keen on releasing this befor RTW comes out though. If you think you can contribute in anyway please feel free to drop Noreseman a line. Take care... och glad påsk

PseRamesses
04-07-2004, 11:08
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 07 2004,04:17)]Hello Fury Of The Northmen devs,

I was wondering, will there be any non-viking factions in this Mod? And what about those lands outside the Scandinavia, are they going to be locked like Africa in MTW?

Regards,
EC
Yes, there most defenitely will be. Basically you´ll find the factions of the original VI game. We´re also looking into adding provinces on Ireland, maybee a new faction there. On main land Europe you´ll find factions from France to Russia. We haven´t decided yet of how many factions we´re going to include since it´s a question of game-balance. I know Norse and many of you players agree that including as many factions, as kingdoms - major or petty, from the viking time period would be the best thing since we both have the ambition to portary our ancestors world in the best way possible.

You can choose to play three different viking factions: Danish, Norvegian and Swedish plus the other factions available, starting with one or more provinces. The goal should be to unify your respective kingdoms and raid/ conquer others.
Regarding inland European and Russian provinces they shouldn´t be able to conquer. We´re on the other hand looking in to the possibility to create a unique raider unit, much like the crusade unit in MTW so that you can raid inland provinces that has a river in it. Since you can´t conquer the entire map and GA-goals are hardcoded we´ll have to satisfy you guys with a 60% win situation, sorry, if we won´t come up with a better idea before the release date that is. Basically we´re aiming at the maximum amount of provinces and if it´s doable the maximum amount of factions with a completely new tech-tree - makes you drool, huh?

Work in progress: Norse is buried in the text files, I´m making the strategy map and Norse mailed me a portion of the sheilds yesterday.
The strat-map covers Scandinavia up to the region of Trondheim in the north, Ireland in the west, Novgorod in the east and Paris in the south. The problem is that we actually have to tilt the map some 8-12 degrees to the east to avoid including as many inland russian provinces as possible which causes a visual disturbance since the viewer is not used to se the map in this fashion. Some parts are wrongfully going to be widened, ex. the Northumbrian part of England, and some enlargened, ex Ireland, Manau, Gotland etc.
We´ll post the basic strat-map here shortly. Then I´m going to re-work the graphics of the strat-map to give you a completely new ambience of the game. What I´m aiming for is a mor CIV III-feel in apearence.

Norseman
04-07-2004, 12:15
Just dropping of a few lines before I leave on easter vacation.

Quote[/b] ]
I was wondering, will there be any non-viking factions in this Mod? And what about those lands outside the Scandinavia, are they going to be locked like Africa in MTW?
Regards,
EC


EC, I'm having trouble finding any good info on what was going on in Prussia/Poland in the timeframe 800-1100. Was there any factions or factionlike groups there we should know about? My understanding is that there were pretty much just small slavic tribes, and some trading towns along the baltic coast. Pretty much just rebels in MTW terms. When did actually Poland(or a group that one day ended up being Poland) emerge as faction to be reckoned with? What kind of units would one expect to find in these regions? Did they fight mounted etc.?

BTW, a bit off-topic: I noticed you mentioned some possible unique polish units for the MTW timeframe in another thread, like Czelads, Pancarni, Streltzy,Kn of Dobryzin etc.(spelling??). Could you maybe write a littlebit more about them? like what was the difference of Czelads and Strelzy? I thought they both were some kind of sergeants/retainers? What was the historical background of the Pancarni(when I searched I got sites about tanks, so I'm guessing pancarni means armour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Any info would be very helpful, thanks

wilpuri
04-07-2004, 19:02
The norse sagas tell of the kingdom of finland, the kvens or quens in the north. Tales of a even wider finnish kingdom were passed down even into history books, but these were records were wiped out by the swedish adminstration in the 16th century; after this there is no mention of that ancient kingdom.

Anyway, my question is, how will the Finns be represented in the game? Or will they be represented at all?
I'm really looking forward to this mod, you are righ, i am drooling when i think of all the new units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

PseRamesses
04-07-2004, 22:17
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 07 2004,13:02)]The norse sagas tell of the kingdom of finland, the kvens or quens in the north. Tales of a even wider finnish kingdom were passed down even into history books, but these were records were wiped out by the swedish adminstration in the 16th century; after this there is no mention of that ancient kingdom.

Anyway, my question is, how will the Finns be represented in the game? Or will they be represented at all?
I'm really looking forward to this mod, you are righ, i am drooling when i think of all the new units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Hyvää wilpuri,

We haven´t researched that part yet so let me know if you´re interested in doing the research of the Finland/ kareelen area and maybee even Ladoga/ Novgorod etc? It´s better that a Finn does the proper research than get a Swede, like myself, to cast the Finns into obliviance again, right?

PseRamesses
04-07-2004, 22:25
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 07 2004,14:03)]If you are interested, I could drop few lines about the armies of above mentioned groups, this is quite a bit to write however and I dont have that much time in this particular moment.

And regarding those Czeladz, Streltsy and others I think I'll send you a PM or sth, as this is not a place for that topic, and its quite a bit to write too...
Eastside Character,

Thanks for the offer. I´m answering for Norse´s account on this topic since he´s away for a week. Any indepth research to portray the Polish faction, and others of her neighbours, would be sorley needed. So yes please feel free to drop me or Norse a line regarding this. We´re not working towards an emideate deadline so if you can take on this task later let us know.

Thanks in advance

Polyphemos
04-07-2004, 23:58
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 07 2004,13:02)]The norse sagas tell of the kingdom of finland, the kvens or quens in the north.
The kvens lived in the most northern parts of Scandinavia (Lapland - or Ruija as the kvens called it), and are not especially associated with the Vikings. But it would be great if you could include all, or any, of the three tribal cultures of Tavastland, Karelia and Suomi (Finland proper), which probably came in to relatively close contact with the Vikings.

PseRamesses
04-08-2004, 03:27
Quote[/b] (Polyphemos @ April 07 2004,17:58)]But it would be great if you could include all, or any, of the three tribal cultures of Tavastland, Karelia and Suomi (Finland proper), which probably came in to relatively close contact with the Vikings.
Now that´s really interesting. I´ve been searching for this kind of info. Have more? Links? Other references perhaps?

wilpuri
04-08-2004, 09:05
As we understand it today, Finland was not united in any way during the Viking age. There were loose tribal communities,who would make war campaigns which were more like raids. No one was forced to join these raids, everyman for himselfcould decide. A charismaticleader could gather quite a large force (in relative terms, the pop. of Finalnd was very low and spread out). The tavastians and western Finns raided the Karelians and vice versa. The Karelians were closely allied with novgorod, which also included several finnish tribes.

I can do research for you if I like, but for the sake of simplicity, I should probably only include widely accepted and printed scholarly views? Because the history of pre-Swedish Finland has come into question frequently in recent years, and there are many different theories emerging than those printed in school books.

here is one site, might be some what biased, I don't know. But then again,no one knows for sure what heppened since few records were written, and the surviving record were written by the Swedish administration, and they might have had reasons to change the course of things. Who knows.
anyways, here is a site that is interesting, if nothing more: http://victorian.fortunecity.com/christy/32/frnjtre.html

But I would gladly do what I can to help you guys with this mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

PseRamesses
04-08-2004, 10:30
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 08 2004,03:05)]I can do research for you if I like, but for the sake of simplicity, I should probably only include widely accepted and printed scholarly views? Because the history of pre-Swedish Finland has come into question frequently in recent years, and there are many different theories emerging than those printed in school books.
But I would gladly do what I can to help you guys with this mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
Concidered yourself hired wilpuri and thanks for the link.

Research the regions down south from the Vasa-Kuopio latitude (63rd parallel). So your research in Finland will include the regions of Vasa, Åbo-Björneborg, Tavastehus, Nyland, Kymmene, St Michael, Mellersta Finland, Kuopio and the Karelic-regions. If you like please feel free to look into the Ladoga-Saraya region to.
In the timeframe of 700-1100 AD look for the following:
1. Chronologies, dates, dynasties of kingdoms.
2. Settlements, only major ones, that where of importance and what the settlement consisted of like a fortified village, port, burial ground, tradeplace etc.
3. Also include some of your local knowledge of the Finnish geography for use when we make battle- and cstlemaps and where the borders of the regions where, roughly.

Good luck and please feel free to e-mail me at anytime: pse@brevet.se or post you Q´s in this thread.

PseRamesses
04-08-2004, 10:54
While we´re at it and you guys seems to bee so helpful, as usual, more research is needed in the following regions:

Baltic regions of Estland, Livland and Kurland. Russian regions of Novgorod, Pskov, Welikia, Polotsk, Smolensk and
Lithuanian and Polish regions.

1. Chronologies, dates, dynasties of kingdoms, names, hero´s etc.
2. Settlements, only major ones, that where of importance and what the settlement consisted of like a fortified village, port, burial ground, tradeplace etc.
3. Also include any knowledge of the landscape for use in making province- and castlemaps.
4. Special feats like units, shields etc.

Thanks in advance

wilpuri
04-08-2004, 14:14
Dynasties or kingdoms: Nothing officially accepted, and very few records. The link I gave in the previous post is from the Norse Sagas, and its reliability questionable.
I think we will have to settle with the fact, that The Häme region was more or less united (along with Satakunta and Finland Proper) and that the Savo-Karelia more or less united. Most of the trade during the Viking age through the east. The Finnish Kings are mentioned in several Chronicles, but they are dismissed as being false. If you want to give the Finns kings, with real names of Finnish kings, You could use names like Ahti, Kaleva, Niera, Tiera, Kuura, Huurre, Ilmarinen, Ikuturso, and pretty much anything you find from the Kalevala. The Kings should also have the title kuningas, which originally something like leader of people. The Finnish kuninkaat were also often shaman-like wisemen, who were also the spiritual leaders in the communities.

The political organisation varied. It is safe to say that Kings were infact elected, and did not come to power by birth (solves the heir problem). The major settlements in Western Finland would be Turku (Åbo) and Hämeenlinna (Tavastehus). Savo-Karelia had no big centre, around which the whole area revolved. The coastal settlement of Hirnilä in S.E Karelia would probably have been the largest and densest area of population and trade. Water ways and travel on them was the easiest and most usual form of transport.

Coastal Finland, Häme, Savo-Karelia were littered with several small hill forts, which were used for protection against raids. This shows that there was political unity to a considerable extent, since these forts required many builders, and they were also for the whole community to take refuge in.

Trade: Häme had considerable trade contacts with Sweden in the west, and the main goods would have been furs. In return they got salt, Swords and other metal tools from central europe, and may be some jewellery. Savo-Karelia had very strong trade contacts with Novgorod, and most of the silver coins and jewellery that has been found in Finland came from trade with east and ultimately, the byzantine empire. There were several Finnish tribes living in Novgorod and around lake ladoga. The Novgorodians would often aid their Karelian allies in times of war with the Western Finns. Furs were also traded from Savo-Karelia.
The inland Area was sparcely populated, and people lived from hunting all year round.

As for geography: Lakes, lakes and lakes, where-ever you go. Western Finland: Predominantly low land, farming and crops in coastal areas, Lots of forest, mainly Spruce, Pine and Birch in Southern parts, which becomes mostly coniferous forest once you get to around Vaasa latitude.
Savo-Karelia: Forest and lakes, with low to high hills. For forts and castles: Nothing big. the hill forts could be represented by fortified villages on top of, usually steep, hills. The Häme and Turku castles/forts could be slightly bigger and more advanced.

Ideas for units (in case you will make Finnish units):
Finnish nobles, or the Kings guard: Decent armour (probably medium infantry), equipped with swords and large wooden shields. Good morale, since they are possibly relatives of the king and are in his favour. They followed the kings on their war raids.

Finnish infantry: lighter than Finnish nobles, but also faster. Armour consisted probably only of thick furs and leather. Equipped with swords or axes. They are the middle-class of Finnish society (the largest class), and join the war raids in hope of booty. reasonable morale.

Finnish Tribesmen: comparable to Slavic infantry in MTW: Light, fast and equipped with spear and shield. Poor morale. They were the slightly poorer, probably from the more inland parts of Finland. Join in hope of booty. Impetuous.

Wilderland Hunters: From the dark forests of the inland, they excell in stealth and know the woods like the backs of their hands. poor morale, armed with bows (small units).

Karelian Kylfings: Mercenaries armed with epees/swords, inhabit the south eastern shores of Finland. Reliable medium infantry. Often associated with the Varangians.

Religion: During the later stages of the Viking age, Finland had already been converted to christendom to some extent. Savo-Karelia was influenced by the Eastern form of christianity through novgorod. Ancient beliefs still held the central position in society, though. Ancient finnish religion could be described as a more developed form of Shamanism, with the shaman or wise man usually being the king. Warriors also trained themselves in spells and the like, to give themselves courage, and encourage those along side them.

Here is a little bit for starters. Let me know if you need more.
my email is kristianola@hotmail.com

Polyphemos
04-08-2004, 14:55
Great pieces of information there wilpuri I especially like the idea of the Karelian Kylfings and Wilderland Hunters.

PseRamesses
04-08-2004, 16:35
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 08 2004,08:14)]Here is a little bit for starters. Let me know if you need more.
Wilpurri, you´re a gem

Do you call that for starters? I´d love to see what you can deliver for the main course, he he Just kidding This is exactly the kind of research that we need. Please feel free to continue this spledid work. I know Norse is going to be exalted about this when he gets back from easter holidays.
Create your own doc/ archive for this and keep it until needed or finished since I know you´re going to turn up more, get new ideas etc like the one with the unique Finn units - just loved it.
Just to make shure. The timeframe should be between 700-1100 AD, in case I didn´t mentioned this before. Good luck

wilpuri
04-08-2004, 16:40
The time frame is correct. I specifically researched late iron age, or viking-age, material, so no worries http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
/doc archive? Do you mean I should make my own word document for this, or something else?

PseRamesses
04-08-2004, 16:51
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 08 2004,10:40)]The time frame is correct. I specifically researched late iron age, or viking-age, material, so no worries http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
/doc archive? Do you mean I should make my own word document for this, or something else?
Yeah save it for later if you´re going to do some more research on this. I´ve copied this text for now but you might turn up something new that needs to be changed and it´s easier for you to keep track of theese things since you´re our Constable of the Finns, right?

wilpuri
04-08-2004, 16:54
Constable of the Finns, eh? Rather like that title.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

PseRamesses
04-08-2004, 17:46
Can anyone confirm theese:

FINNLAND
Snaer Vanha Jokulsson......................early 300's CE ?
Thorri Snaersson
? gap in sequence ?
Aude Rikas
Gisi
Andur
? gap in sequence ?
Froste
Loge
? gap in sequence ?
Faravid........................................fl. 870's

POLAND
Piast the Wheelwright.......................c. 840- ?
Siemowit
Lestko
Siemomysl
Mieszco I...................................c. 960-992
Boleslaw I Braveheart..........................992-1025
Mieszco II Lambert............................1025-1031
Bezprym.......................................1031-1032
Mieszco II Lambert (restored).................1032-1034
Pagan Rebellion...............................1034-1041
Casimir I the Restorer........................1038-1058
Boleslaw II the Bold..........................1058-1079
Wladyslaw I Herman............................1079-1102
Zbigniew......................................1102-1107

LADOGA
According to the Yngling Saga, Ivar and Harald, both kings of Denmark, established a vast Baltic empire which included the Ladoga region. The area was probably still under the day-to-day management of local Finn princes.

Radbard (Ratibor of Novgorod ?).........late 600's-c. 719
Norse period, 750-838
Viking traders and raiders from Scania, Uppsala, and Gotland probably took over Staraya Ladoga in the 750s. They called the town Aldeigjuborg and the area around it Gårdarike.
Aldeigja...........................................mid 700's ?
Bravlin............................................late 700's ?
Dir Bjorn..........................................early 800's ?
Possible republic......................early 800's-838
Khaganate of Rus period 838-862
This is one of the least-understood periods of Russian history. Around the 830's, Arab travelogues begin describing a Khaganate of the Rus, located far to the north. Its organization imitated the command hierarchy of the Khazar state. It is unclear whether the aristocracy was Slavic, Finnish or Norse in origin. Omeljan Pritsak, a Ukranian historian, speculated that the Khaganate of Rus was founded by Xan-Tuvan Dyggvi, a Khazar khagan who led a rebellion in the early 800's and fled north after his defeat. According to Pritsak, Xan-Tuvan intermarried with the local aristocracy and helped organize a new state along lines familiar to him. Unfortunately, because Pritsak is notoriously poor at documenting his theories and providing sources, the veracity of this claim about the nature of the Rus Khaganate, fascinating though it is, is impossible to determine.
Xan-Tuvan Dyggvi ? ................................mid 800's
Kievian Rus Period 862-1478
It is widely accepted that Staraya Ladoga became part of Rurik's dominions when he took over Novgorod in the 860s. Thereafter it was usually under the domination of Novgorod.
To Novgorod..................................860's-1478
Ingegärd (fem.)...........................1019-1050
Ingegärd was the daughter of Olaf Skötkonung, King of Sweden. According to the sagas she was promised as bride to the Norwegian king Olav Haraldsson in 1018, as peace gift. But Olaf broke his promise and married her in 1019 to the Russian Grand Prince Yaroslav. She received Ladoga as a marriage gift.

NOVGOROD
Sloven........................................fl. 7th cent.
Ivar the Glorious................................ -72 ?
Vandal.......................................72 ? -
Burivoy.......................................fl. 8th cent.
Randver.......................................fl. 8th cent.
Ratibor........................................fl. c. 800
Gostomysl the Reasonable......................8 ? -859
VADIMICH
Vadim I the Brave..............................859-862
RURIKOVICH
Rurik..........................................862-867
VADIMICH
Vadim the Brave (restored).........................867
RURIKOVICH
Rurik (restored)...............................867-870
VADIMICH
Vadim the Brave (restored).........................870
RURIKOVICH
Rurik (restored)...............................870-880
Oleg the Seer..................................880-912
Capital moved to Kiev..........................882-1169
Oleg I.........................................916-932
Igor I.........................................932-941
Svyatoslav I the Warlike, of Kiev..............941-969
Vladimir I the Apostle, of Kiev................969-977
Yaropolk I of Kiev.............................977-979
Vladimir I the Apostle (restored)..............979-988
Vysheslav I....................................988-1010
Yaroslav the Wise, of Kiev....................1010-1018
Ilya..........................................1018-1020
Yaroslav the Wise (restored)..................1020-1021
Bryacheslav of Polotsk.............................1021
Yaroslav the Wise (re-restored)...............1021-1036
Vladimir II...................................1036-1052
Izyaslav of Kiev..............................1052-1068
Vseslav the Werewolf, of Polotsk..............1068-1069
Gleb I........................................1069-1078
Svyatopolk I..................................1078-1087
Mstislav I the Great..........................1087-1094
David I.......................................1094-1095
Mstislav I the Great (restored)...............1095-1117

PSKOV
Center of tribal union of North Kriviches (Pleskoviches) until c. 800...
To Novgorod..................................c.800-862
Truvor (brother of Rurik, from Izobrsk)........862-864
To Novgorod....................................864-1132
RURIKOVICH
Sudislav......................................1010-1036


SMOLENSK
To Novgorod....................................882-912
To Kiev........................................912-1010
RURIKOVICH
Stanislaus....................................1010-1015
To Kiev.......................................1015-1054
Vyacheslav I..................................1054-1057
Igor..........................................1057-1060
Isyaslav I....................................1060-1068
Svyatoslav I..................................1060-1068
Vsevolod......................................1060-1068
Vseslav the Werewolf..........................1068-1069
Vladimir I Monomakh...........................1069-1093
Isyaslav II...................................1093-1094
David I............................................1094
Mstislav II the Great.........................1094-1095
David I (restored)............................1095-1097
Svyatoslav II.................................1097-1113


Regarding Estonia, Latvia and Lettland I have almost no info before the 12th century so any info on thoose would be great too.

wilpuri
04-08-2004, 22:49
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ April 08 2004,11:46)]Can anyone confirm theese:

FINNLAND
Snaer Vanha Jokulsson......................early 300's CE ?
Thorri Snaersson
? gap in sequence ?
Aude Rikas
Gisi
Andur
? gap in sequence ?
Froste
Loge
? gap in sequence ?
Faravid........................................fl. 870's
As I told you, these aren't taught in school books and aren't official history. The names sound very noewegianized, or germanicized, if you like. These arent finnish names. If you want to give finnish kings names, I'll post some more after some research. You see, finnish kings didn't exist officially, at least not after the re-writing of history in the 16 hundreds. Anyway, I wouldn't trust the norse sagas as being very accurate in a historical sense.

PseRamesses
04-09-2004, 11:21
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 08 2004,16:49)]As I told you, these aren't taught in school books and aren't official history. The names sound very noewegianized, or germanicized, if you like. These arent finnish names. If you want to give finnish kings names, I'll post some more after some research. You see, finnish kings didn't exist officially, at least not after the re-writing of history in the 16 hundreds. Anyway, I wouldn't trust the norse sagas as being very accurate in a historical sense.
That´s exactly why I posted it here since I don´t trust either the old roman scholars or my own Swedish historians on the topic of Finland since we´re tought the same things as you are at school. Would be great if you could correct this wilpurri. Thanks

wilpuri
04-09-2004, 19:38
The point is, that I cannot correct the list, and neither can anyone else.. There just aren't enough reliable records to arrange the kings in order of reign, and still call it historically accurate. I think a compromise, where we just gather ancient, possible names for the kings and put them in any order, is the best solution. Just like the Kings are in MTW.

PseRamesses
04-10-2004, 10:27
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 09 2004,13:38)]I think a compromise, where we just gather ancient, possible names for the kings and put them in any order, is the best solution. Just like the Kings are in MTW.
You´re probably right wilpurri. So you´ll research the names then? Remember, we´ll need the names of kings, princes, princesses, generals and heroes.

wilpuri
04-10-2004, 12:04
Kings, Princes and Generals:
Lempinen,
Ikäheimo,
Kaukiainen,
Ahti,
Ukko,
Ahti Rikas,
Pakkanen,
Lemminkäinen,
Väinämöinen,
Ilmarinen,
Lempo,
Kaukomieli,
Ikuturso,
Niera,
Mielikäinen,
Joukahainen,
Hämäläinen,
Rautia,
Sampsa Pellervoinen,
Väinö,
Kaleva,
Lempivalko,
Vehnäpää,
Kaukopäivä,
Rauma,
Seppo,
Tapio,
Uljas,
Urho,
Äijö,
Utujoutsi,
Hirvi,
Hyvätty,
Ihalempi,
Ihamuoto,
Ikitiera,
Ikopäivä,
Ikävalko,
Ilakka,
Ilmatoivia,
Untamo,
Montaja,
Nousia,
Osma,
Sarijoutsi,
Sotijalo,
Unti,
Unto,
Utujoutsi,
Valta,
Valtari,
Vihas,
Vihavaino,
Vilja,
Viljakka,
Viljari,
Viti,
Joutsimies,
Jutikka,
Kainu,
Kaivas,
Ahti Saarelainen,
Rasantaja,
Kaukomieli,
Kullervo,
Arijoutsi,
Seppo Ilmarinen,
Urho Kaukopäivä,
Kultimo,
Kukurtaja,
Uro Venemies

Princesses:
Tuuli,
Aino,
Mielikki,
Hyvälempi,
Mielitty,
Ilmatar,
Aamu,
Aili,
Anja,
Annikki,
Ilta,
Päivä,
Sirja,
Suvi-Marja,
Suvi-Tuuli,
Suvi-Päivi,
Auni,
Liekko,
Lemmikki,
Hellikki,
Talvikki,
Salme,
Lyylikki,
Tuulitar,
Vilutar,
Kivutar

Heroes (Legends, myths, etc):
Väinämöinen (Great wise man, wizard-warrior)
Ilmarinen (warrior, blacksmith)
Lemminkäinen (warrior)

DeadRunner
04-10-2004, 18:49
somoone can tell me when this mod is released i have a urge to try him m8's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

PseRamesses
04-11-2004, 12:06
Quote[/b] (DeadRunner @ April 10 2004,12:49)]somoone can tell me when this mod is released i have a urge to try him m8's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
The only set ambition is to release this mod way before RTW hits the shelves but we are all anxious to release it as soon as possible. A lot of work remains though.

Both Norse and I have the same goal with this mod: to portray the vikings in a better and more historically correct way than in VI which only included one faction and the quest for England. Originally we had a vision to include Iceland, Greenland and New Foundland to the west and the Black Sea area to the east but due to size limitations to the trategic map in the game we have to narrow it down. The strategic map will be posted here as soon as I´ve solved some irritating problems with it. It will include Scandinavia, Brittish Isles, Northern France, N.Germany, N.Poland, NW part of Russia and the Baltics. New units, new tech-tree and other cool stuff.

PseRamesses
04-11-2004, 12:24
To give you all an update on the work distribution and who´s who on this mod I take the liberty to present the FotN mod crew:

Norseman: text-files, graphics, maps etc.
PseRamesses: strategic map, research, maps etc.
Kominos: LBM-map
JayDC: Graphics

Research:
Norseman: Norway, Denmark and the west part of the map.
PseRamesses: Sweden and the east part of the map.
Wilpurri: Finland, Kareelia etc.
Eastside Character: Poland (and graphics)

Research vacancies:
N.W Russian petty states/ cities.
Baltic petty states/ cities.
N.German kingdoms/ petty states/ cities.
Dutch kingdoms/ petty states/ cities.

Any help on theese would be greatly appreciated. Part info already exist but more is needed. Thanks in advance.

wilpuri
04-11-2004, 12:43
A little update on my research about the different Finnish political entities:
At Viking age three distinct Finnish cultures can be identified: In Karelia, in Tavastia and in Varsinais-Suomi (Finland proper). In these three provinces there is believed to have existed regents or governors comparable to those among Germanic tribes; leading cult, big game hunting, defense and military expeditions. Finns are not believed to have launched Viking raids outside the Baltic. But nothing certain is
known.

The Finns (Karelians) did actually raid the Swedish capital, once or
twice.

Particularly in Karelia it is known (or sooner: believed) to have existed Viking trading posts, which became assimilated or alienated to the original Viking culture in Novgorod, Uppland, Gotland or wherever they had come from. The town of Staraja Ladoga was a Viking stronghold, for instance. A Viking type (but Tavastian) trade station has in recent years been excavated in the heart of Tavastia, in Varikkoniemi.

Finland's trade with the Vikings have left evidences as rich findings of Arabic silver coins, indicating Finland to have prospered as much as Scandinavia from the eastern trade. Finland was also an important trader of Walrus-tusks to the east, along with furs.


I have taken up the research on the Baltic regions as well, and when I get that finished, I could look into Novgorod and western Russia. Shouldn't be too hard to find information about that region.


Now, to the Baltic Here is some background information on the area in general, I will look into the different political entities and kingdoms later on.

The Baltic Sea has been the key to bringing northern Europeans together since mankind first learned to build ships and navigate upon the sea. Evidence of early travels throughout the sea can be seen by the various trade items found throughout the region, or in other areas of Europe. Hoards of precious metals such as silver, gold, and iron in the form if ingots, coins, tools and ornamental objects have been found all over the Baltic region. These hoards date as far back as the 8th century and up to the 13th century. They are evidence of trade networks developed during the rise of the Viking Age. Many of these hoards have been found in the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. The Vikings traveled throughout the Baltic, passing through the Baltic states as they traveled inland on the regions rivers, reaching as far as the Arab lands around the Black Sea and Constantinople. This is evident by the presence of many Arabian coins found in the hoards throughout the Baltic states. The finding of such hoards has lead to theories of the creation of a monetary system. The coins and larger ingots, brooches, pendants, and neck rings found indicate a need for varying values in order to pay for goods and services. The highest concentration of finds has been on the Swedish island of Gotland. This is believed to be due to Gotland’s location between Sweden and the Baltic states, making it a large and wealthy trading port between Scandinavia and the Baltic states and Russia to the east.

Amber Trade

The Baltics have long been a source for the highly sought and prized amber. This fossilized pine resin became a major trade item all over Europe and as far away as the Middle East. The sea has long been the source for Baltic amber. As far back as prehistoric times people gathered amber washed up on the shore. Later, different methods were used to obtain it. These ranged from scooping it up in nets as it floated at sea, to riding through the coastal marshlands on horseback. Other methods were to use long poles or pikes to pry the amber loose from the sea floor and collect it as it rose to the surface. In more modern times dredging the seafloor and mining on land have become the main source for Baltic amber. No matter what method was used to collect it, the best concentrations of Baltic amber come from the Lithuanian and Kalingrad region

PseRamesses
04-11-2004, 12:47
This kings-list is complied by Eastside Charatcter. Thanks EC since mine was a bit wrong, he he.

Lech I----------------------duke-------550-???*-------pagan
Wizimir---------------------duke-------670-690*-------pagan
Krakus----------------------duke-------690-738*-------pagan
Lech II---------------------duke-------738-740*-------pagan
Wanda-----------------------princess---740-750*-------pagan
Leszek I (Przemysl)--------duke--------750-780*-------pagan
Leszek II-------------------duke-------780-804*-------pagan
Leszek III------------------duke-------804-810*-------pagan
Popiel I--------------------duke-------810-815*-------pagan
Popiel II-------------------duke-------815-840*-------pagan

THE PIASTS - PIAST DYNASTY, starts here
Piast the Wheelwright-------duke-------840-860*-------pagan
Ziemowit--------------------duke-------860-890--------pagan
Leszek IV-------------------duke-------890-921--------pagan
Ziemomysl-------------------duke-------921-960--------pagan
Mieszko I-------------------duke-------960-992-----catholic
Boleslaw I Braveheart-------king-------992-1025----catholic
Mieszko II Lambert----------king------1025-1034----catholic

(nobles' rebellion, Bohemian plundering of the country 1034-1041)

Kazimierz I the Restorer----king--1038-1058--------catholic
Boleslaw II the Bold--------king--1058-1079--------catholic
Wladyslaw I Herman----------king--1079-1102--------catholic
Boleslaw the Wrymouth-------duke--1102-1138--------catholic

Trax
04-11-2004, 14:24
Wilpuri, I read, what you had written about Baltic and it seems to be correct to me.
Have you any more specific questions that you would like to ask?

wilpuri
04-11-2004, 14:31
Quote[/b] (Trax @ April 11 2004,08:24)]Wilpuri, I read, what you had written about Baltic and it seems to be correct to me.
Have you any more specific questions that you would like to ask?
Well, I am having a bit of trouble to find any good sources about major/important viking age settlements in Estonia and the Baltic in general. I'm sure there is a wealth of information out there, but it is very hard to find anything that would satisfy the following:
The major political entities,
Kings, Rulers, etc
important settlements, trade posts.

My guess is, that there isn't too much on this topic in English, but I'm sure that there is a whole lot in Estonian. My knowledge of Estonian is basically my Finnish language, and if I tried to translate anything in Estonian, this game would loose any historical accuracy it ever had on that topic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

I (and the others) would be really glad if you could lend a helping hand in the unravelling of this part of viking history.

Trax
04-11-2004, 15:29
If I understand correctly this mods time-frame ranges ca 800-1100.
The only information from this period is archaeological, without any written sources.

There were no kings in this period and there was certainly nothing that can be considered to be a state.

The area was probably divided into several counties (maakonnad) as it was later during German invasion in early
13th century. Sometimes the counties operated together and helped each other, sometimes not.

One of the richest and more populous counties was Saaremaa,
I think it may deserve a province in this mod.

I too have trouble finding more info on Internet and I don´t have my books with me right now. I think I have to search better.

Edit: some more
The entire area was actually quite rich,
trading goods included furs, honey, grain (lots of it)and wax.

Relations were good with Finns and Livs, there were small skirmishes with Latvian tribes.
Scandinavians attacked and plundered often (but weren´t strong enough to conquer or colonize), Estonians answered with the same.
Russians were the only ones who tried conquer the area.
In 1030 Grand Prince of Kiev Yaroslav the Wise took the stronghold of Tarbatu (Tartu).
Russians were driven out 30 years later with the help from Saaremaa. Victorious Estonians even tried to besiege Pskov.

wilpuri
04-11-2004, 18:12
Yes, it seems to have been much like Finland at the time. I read about a joint Estonian-Karelian raid on the main city of Sweden in around 1080 (I have to look it up), so it seems that Estonians had strong contacts over the Gulf. In fact, a lot of Estonians migrated over the gulf to southern Finland, mostly to Finland-Proper if I remember correctly.

When I said kings, I didn't mean kings in the traditional sense, but more like local strong men and so on, may be the names of the different tribes living in the area. I suppose they will have to be represented in the same way as the Finns, just gather a bunch of ancient (pre-Christian, preferrably) Estonian names for generals, rulers etc. Am I completely wrong in assuming that the difference between southern Finnish dialects and the language spoken in Estonia was significantly smaller than it is today?

It would be really good if you could mention how the different parts of Estonia were divided (some major province-like political entities) and what tribes ruled over them. Also, the main trade centres and settlements would be good to know.

old Estonian male names (Trax, feel free to add more/correct):
Kalev
Tuuslar
Kalevipoeg (potential hero?)
Olevipoeg(?)
Olev(?)
Alev
Sulev
Ahti
Arvo
Ülo
Vaino

Trax
04-11-2004, 19:25
Map of the counties in the beginning of 13th century,
anything earlier would be impossible to find I think.
http://www.hot.ee/etsiam/eestikaart3.jpg
Names, or at least modern versions of old names
Lembitu
Manivald(e)
Vootele
Tõivelemb
Toivo
Valdo
Ülo
Vesse
Õnnepäev
Meelis
Kaupo (livonian name)
There are not many old names known and again, it´s hard to find any good sources.

PseRamesses
04-11-2004, 19:53
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 11 2004,08:30)]Hello PseRamesses,

I have some questions:

1. What is most likely going to be the campaign(s) starting date(s).
2. How many (approximately) provinces will there be in eastern Europe (from Jutland peninsula eastwards, not including Scandinavian east)
3. Will the Mod be an expansion (more snow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )?

I understand provinces are going to be done later, but the distribution of land will influence what factions to include, and I've been reading lately about different slavic states (VII-IXc) and it made me wonder...

Regards,
EC
EC,
1. Basically the same as VI, starting in late 8th century. Personally I think it would be cool to pre-start the ordinary Viking era with some 50 years for the build-up and unifying phase in your homelands. We´re open for input on this.
2. As for now we´re looking at around 25 provs for Scandinavia. Around 40 for the Brittish Isles and around 35 from N.France to Russia. Seems unproportional? Remember that only the north parts of France, Germany and Poland are in this mod and only the NW part of Russia. And Scandinavia is represented from Trondheim-Sundsvall-Vasa parallel and southwards.
3. I´d like that too. Would be really cool to have atleast every other battle in Scandinavia atleast with snow.

Regarding the slaves, i´m not shure which ones you mean, but the map cuts Germany and Polish on the middle.

PseRamesses
04-11-2004, 20:07
Trax, glad you can join us and help out Wilpurri on the Baltics. Here´s some links which I haven´t have time to look at myself, maybee they´ll help. Good luck

Links in english:
http://archnet.asu.edu/
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/archaeology.html
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/HistoryFiles.htm
http://www.worldhistory.com/
http://www.balticuniv.uu.se/index.htm

Links in Swedish:
http://www.estemb.se/index.html?saatkond=2&keel=18
http://www.stockholm.am.gov.lv/en/
http://hem.passagen.se/mihe2110/index.htm
http://www.rollspel.nu/juneborg/Historia/

wilpuri
04-11-2004, 21:30
I think we have Finland pretty much covered. I will now concentrate on the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania). The Livs were a major people/collection of tribes during this time period, so I might have a look into they're doings as well. I will then go on to Novgorod.
I have a suggestion though: The time period could start as early as 600 A.D, since the Eastern ventures of the Vikings began earlier than the ones to the west.

Just a question about the mod: Can you make a list of the factions? And which factions will be playable?


The Finnic Baltic peoples:
The Livs lived in the northern parts of Kurland, and spoke a finno-ugric language. around 650 A.D a viking outpost called Seeborg was built in Kurland, and it was to become one of the richest centres of trade in the Baltic. The Livs lived south of the Estonians. Important trade goods: Wheat, furs, horses, cotton, amber, wax and honey.
The Livs were able to fight off their viking overlords in the toward the end of the 800's. After this, Novgorod and the way east and south (eventually to byzantinium) became the main destination for raiding and trading, and many of the Baltic peoples; Finns, Estonians, Livs, Letts etc joined these raids. The Baltic was an excellent position trade-wise.

This position and wealth enabled the Baltic peoples to become more and more politically organized, but this process was shattered due to the event in the 1200's.
The weaponry produced in the baltic sometimes surpassed that of the Vikings, and they were militarily organized to a considerable extent. Warrior leaders kept the different political entities together. The Baltic peoples made their own version of the viking shipt, the Uisko, which could carry 15-30 men. There was a major baltic navy base at Hiidenmaa, because it was a natural harbor which could be easily defended.
Like Finland, also the baltic was littered with Hill forts. To this day, 162 of them were situated in the then Estonian territory, and 359 in the Livonian territory. Along the coastline of Livonia, Estonia and Southern Finland, beacons were constructed on hill tops, and were used to warn the ihabitants of invaders. During the late 900's, when the Silver mines in Turkmenistan had been exhausted, and the financial value of raids to the east decreased, the Scandinavians turned to the west. The varyags were assimilated into the Slavic and Finnic peoples of Novgorod, and the same happened in the Baltic. After this, the baltic states became increasingly united politically, and started their own raids. The growing population and wealth enabled the baltic peoples to conduct several successful raids at the christened eastern cost of Denmark and Sweden, pillaging and capturing people for slaves. The Baltic peoples, especially the navy of the Livs/Kurlanders was able to control virtually the whole Baltic Sea. The inland Estonians however, were hard put in defending their lands against the risen might in Russia. Novgorod fell into internal squabbles and disarray however. This period of prosperity and relative might in the Baltics was short lived, however, since they were now stuck between the Orthodox church in the East and the Roman Catholic chuch in the west. Ever since 1100, Finland and the baltic states became targets of the other Northern powers, Denamrk, Sweden and Russia.

For a long time the Livonian/Kurland navy was able to meet the Scandinavians on equal terms, both on land and sea. Around 1187, A combined force of Estonians, Livs and Karelians raided and sacked the capital city of sweden and the bishops seat, Sigtuna. This was the last pagan, viking-style raid venture in the baltics.

The Kurlanders were a Lativan tribe/people.

PseRamesses
04-11-2004, 22:16
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 11 2004,15:47)]35 provinces for mainland Europe seems enough. My worries were there would be some 20 or less, but 35 is very, very nice.
You´re reading to fast EC. I said around 35 provinces from N.France to Russia. Not 35 provs for mainland Europe.

PseRamesses
04-11-2004, 22:32
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 11 2004,15:30)]Just a question about the mod: Can you make a list of the factions? And which factions will be playable?
Well, we can go for the full monty, that is 32 factions but I reserve myself on this since gameplay is of major importance wouldn´t you agree?
Basically Norse and I talked about the original 7 English facs from VI + 3 scandinavian facs + France, Germany, Polish, Russian etc. that brings us to around 14-15. We also taled about another Irish faction and splitting Germany into their representative tribes. Furthermore I´d like to see some representation around the Netherlands, NW Germany, 3 Baltic facs, Finland and numeral Russian petty kingdoms so we might wind up with the maximum 32 faction. We´ll see.

PseRamesses
04-11-2004, 22:36
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 11 2004,16:28)]I believe Denmark is count as Scandinavia, is it not?
You´re absolutelty right EC. Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Iceland is Scandinavia. Finland included and Iceland excluded we call Norden (the Norths) in Sweden.

BTW, you said you hoped for more than one campaign. Can you elaborate on this?

wilpuri
04-11-2004, 23:15
Have you given any thought to the different cultures?
E.G catholic, Orthodox, Arabic/Muslim? How will the factions in Fury of the Northmen be divided?

PseRamesses
04-11-2004, 23:27
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 11 2004,17:15)]Have you given any thought to the different cultures?
E.G catholic, Orthodox, Arabic/Muslim? How will the factions in Fury of the Northmen be divided?
Not much thought yet. The pagan part should be dominating at the start and succumbing to catholicism and orthodox? beliefs as the game progresses. Would be great if you guys could look into this part too when researching factions and province info.

wilpuri
04-11-2004, 23:43
Well, I can already tell you something from the top of my head: Novgorod became gradually Greek orthodox at the turn of the millennia, while the Scandinavian factions would become Catholic around the same time. Finland and the Baltic stayed mostly pagan, except for parts of Karelia and may be some of the Baltic peoples came under orthodox influence from the east. At first, these newly created, loose, christian kingdoms were in disarray (eg civil war in Sweden, IIRC), but then they started their crusades. The crusades were much like the previous viking raids, except for in the name of God. The Baltics and Finland were stuck between a rock and a hard place, as Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Russia all started their colonization. First the new religion weakened the traditionally strong kingdoms, which played a part in the relative rise of the Baltic. A few centuries later, it provided a cassus belli and unity to accomplish the colonization of the pagan areas. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is pretty much how it went, if I remember correctly.

EDIT: I made a suggestion in one of my previous posts:
I think the starting date could be as early as 600 A.D, as the Viking ventures to the East started far earlier then the ones to the British Isles and the West.

EC hoped for two campaigns, and that gave me another Idea:
campaign one starts 600 A.D, Baltic nations, Finland, Novgorod are weak = ripe for conquests and raids.
campaign 2 starts 800 A.D. Baltic states stronger, wealthier, more united, British Isles weaker and better targets for Viking conquests.

Just an idea...

PseRamesses
04-12-2004, 00:48
Eastside and Wilpuri,
I like how this idea is forming. This evening, while watching US masters, I was looking in to the time periods and the emergance of christianity in Scandinavia and I´m actually toying with yet another drastic idea.... three periods.
Roughly from 550-800 on early, high on 800-1050 and finally EC´s favourite 1050-1300 AD. Except that you guys have just tripled the workload upon us I see just one hinch with this. Religion during high since early high is pagan and late high is christian. Any ideas?

BTW, who won? Phil Mickelson, finally

PseRamesses
04-12-2004, 11:21
Here´s some facts regarding the Baltic and Russian city states that might fill in some gaps.

DRUTSK
Known as Dryutesk in the Middle Ages, this place no longer exists. Its site is within the modern Mogilev oblast of Belarus 25 miles (40 km.) west of Mogilev, and 80 miles (135 km.) east of Minsk.
To Polotsk until 1101...
RURIKOVICH-Polotsky
Boris I..................................1101-1128
Rogvolod.................................1128-1129
(to Polotsk..............................1129-1140)
Rogvolod (in Polotsk 1146-51) (restored).1140-1151
Gleb I...................................1151-1158
Rogvolod (in Polotsk 1158-62,re-restored)1158-1160
Gleb II..................................1160's- ?

GRODNO
Known as Gorodno in the Middle Ages. It is now the modern center of Grodno oblast of Belarus, located not far from the Poland/Lithuania frontier. This town was center of Cherno-Russia (Black Rus) until the early 13th century.
To tribal union of Dulebes until 8th century...
To tribal principality of Volynyanes...8th century-981
To Kiev........................................981-988
To Volhynia....................................988-1015
To Kiev.......................................1075-1036
To Volhynia...................................1036-1057
To Kiev.......................................1057-1078
To Volhynia...................................1078-1084
RURIKOVICH-Gorodensky
Vsevolod I....................................1084-?
Mstislav I..................................1090's-1116
Vladiko.......................................1116-1141
Boris.........................................1141-1150's
Gleb........................................1150's-1167
Mstislav II...................................1167-117 ?
R.-Vitebsky
Izyaslav....................................1170's-1185
Vsevolod II...................................1185-?

IZYASLAVL
Now called Zaslavl, it is a town in Minsk oblast of Belarus 12 miles (20 km.) northwest of Minsk.
To Polotsk until 976...
To Novgorod....................................976-980
To Kiev............................................980
RURIKOVICH
Izyaslav I (in Polotsk from 988)...............980-1001
Vseslav I (also in Minsk).....................1001-1003
To Polotsk....................................1003-1101
David (in Polotsk 1116-27)....................1101-1116
Bryachislav I.................................1116-1127
David (in Polotsk 1128-29) (restored).........1127-1128
Bryachislav I (restored)......................1128-1129
To Polotsk....................................1129-1146
Bryachislav II (in Vitebsk 1167-86)...........1146-1151
Vsevolod......................................1151-1158
Bryachislav II (restored).....................1158-1159
Vsevolod (restored)................................1159
Bryachislav II (re-restored)..................1159-
Basil (in Vitebsk 118 ? -1221)................1167-118 ?
Vladimir (in Polotsk from 1197).............118 ? -1215

MINSK
Modern capital of Belarus. Originally called Menesk, the modern name dates from the14-15th centuries. From late 12th cent. to mid 14 cent. there is no information about rulers of Menesk, except Pr.Basil (c.1326).
To tribal union of Dregoviches...........5th-8th centuries
To tribal union of Kriviches........8th-early 9th centuries
To tribal union of Polochanes
(West Kriviches).....ea. 9th cent.-870's
To Novgorod..................................870's-882
To Kiev........................................882-972
To Novgorod....................................972-980
To Kiev............................................980
To Polotsk.....................................980-1001
RURIKOVICH
Vseslav (also in Izyaslavl)...................1001-1003
To Polotsk....................................1003-1101
Gleb..........................................1101-1118
To Turov......................................1119-1146
Rostislav (in Polotsk 1151-58)................1146-1160's
Volodar (in Polotsk 1167)...................1160's- ?
Vladimir.................................fl. late 12th cent.

NOVGORODOK
Now called Novogrudok, a town in modern Grodno oblast of Belarus about 75 miles (120 km.) east of Grodno and a similar distance west of Minsk. This town, a center of Cherno-Russia from the early 13th century, was a sub-Principality under Grodno in the 12th and 13th centuries, then a Principality within the Lithuanian sphere of influence from 1239.
To Grodno until 1175...
RURIKOVICH
Vsevolod (in Grodno from 1185).........1170's-1185
Basil (in Grodno ? -1219)................1185-1 ?
Izyaslav.................................. ? -1239

PINSK
In Brest oblast of Belarus, near the Pina river before it enters the Pripyat. Sub-principality 1184-96, Grand Principality 1196-early 14th century.
To Kiev.....................................c. 890-988
To Turov.......................................988-1010
To Kiev.......................................1010-1078
To Turov......................................1078-1196
RURIKOVICH
Svyatopolk....................................1184-1190
Vladimir I....................................1190-1228
Rostislav.....................................1228-1241
To Mongols....................................1241-c. 1325
Michael I.....................................1241-1245
Vladimir II...................................1245-12 ?
Theodore......................................12 ?-126 ?
George I......................................126 ?-1289
Diomede I.....................................1289- ?

POLOTSK
A town built near the Polota river as it flows into the West Dvina (Daugava). After death of Prince Svyatoslav the Warlike of Kiev (972) it was captured by Varyags (Sweden vikings) and ruled by Ragnvald who became the first prince of Polotsk. Later recaptured by Kiev, it became the most significant of the White Russian Principalities during the Middle Ages.
To Novgorod....................................870's-882
To Kiev........................................882-972
Rogvolod I (Ragnvald)..........................972-976
To Kiev........................................976-980
RURIKOVICH
Izyaslav I.....................................980-1001
Briachislav the Brave.........................1001-1044
Vseslav the Werewolf..........................1044-1066
To Kiev.......................................1067-1068
Vseslav the Werewolf (restored)...............1068-1069
Mstislav I.........................................1069
Svyatopolk (in Kiev 1093-1113)................1069-1071
Vseslav the Werewolf (re-restored)............1071-1101
Roman.........................................1101-1116
David (in Izyaslavl 1101-1116)................1116-1127
Rogvolod II...................................1127-1128
David (restored)..............................1128-1129
Izyaslav II (in Kiev 1146-1154)...............1129-1132
Svyatopolk II (in Novgorod 1142-48)................1132
Vasilko the Restorer..........................1132-1146
Rogvolod III..................................1146-1151
Rostislav.....................................1151-1158
Rogvolod III (restored).......................1158-1162
Vseslav II (in Vitebsk 1146-62)...............1161-1167
Volodar............................................1167
Vseslav II (restored).........................1167-118 ?
Bryachislav I (in Vitebsk from 1167)........118 ? -1186
Boris.........................................1186-1197
Vladimir......................................1197-1216
Basil II (in Vitebsk from 1186)...............1216-1221
Svyatoslav (in Smolensk 1232-1235)............1221-1232
Bryachislav II................................1232-124 ?
Occupied at some point by Mongols..................1240's
MINDAUGAS
Tovtivil.....................................12 ? -1263
Another Lithuanian family
Erden I.......................................1263-12 ?
Edivid I the Wolf............................12 ? -12 ?
To Lithuania directly....................c. 1240's-1315

TUROV
A Russian Principality during the Middle Ages, located in what is now southern Belarus.
To Kiev.....................................c. 890-988
RURIKOVICH
Svyatopolk I the Damned........................988-1010
To Kiev.......................................1010-1078
Yaropolk I....................................1078-1087
Svyatopolk II.................................1087-1113
Roman I.......................................1113-1119
Vyacheslav I..................................1119-1133
Izyaslav I....................................1133-1134
Vyacheslav I (restored).......................1134-1141
Svyatoslav I the Old..........................1141-1142
Vyacheslav I (re-restored)....................1142-1146
Yaroslav I of Luchesk.........................1146-1150
Andrew of Bogolubov (in Vladimir 1156-1174)...1150-1151
Yaroslav I of Luchesk (restored)..............1151-1154
Svyatoslav I the Old (restored)...............1154-1155
Boris I.......................................1155-1157
George I the Old..............................1157-1184
Yaroslav II...................................1184-1180's
Svyatopolk III..............................1180's-1190
Gleb I........................................1190-1196
Rostislav I...................................1196-1228
It is unknown who ruled in Turov after 1228 when Rostislav became Grand Prince of Pinsk. Turov might have become the possession of one of Rostislav's younger brothers, or a possession of the heir to Pinsk, or it might have been ruled directly by Pinsk. By the 14th century and later, Turov district was within the Principality of Pinsk.

VITEBSK
Modern center of Vitebsk oblast of Belarus. A sub-Principality under Polotsk 1101-1129, a Principality within the Polotsk sphere of influence 1140-1240's, A Grand Principality 1240's-1316, and a Principality within Lithuania 1316-1436.
To Kiev until 1010...
To Smolensk..............................1010-1015
To Kiev..................................1015-1021
To Polotsk...............................1021-1101
RURIKOVICH
Svyatoslav...............................1101-1129
Rostislav................................1101-1129
To Polotsk...............................1129-1140
Vyacheslav...............................1140-1146
Vseslav (in Polotsk 1162-8?).............1146-1162
Roman....................................1162-1165
David (in Smolensk 1180-97)..............1165-1167
Bryachislav I (in Polotsk 118 ? -86).....1167-118 ?
Basil I (in Polotsk from 1216)...........118 ? -1221
Bryachislav II (in Polotsk from 1232)....1221-1232
Basil II.................................1232-12 ?
Yaroslav I...............................12 ? -1316

PseRamesses
04-12-2004, 11:57
To get a bit more organized I´like to share the production schedule for the mod.

1. Make the MapTex with correct geography. Draw regions and markers onto it. Make the LBM-map. Complete the regions related sections of the startpos text file.
2. Decide on culture and factions and make them work in the game.
3. Make tech-tree.
4. Make units.
5. Make battlemaps.
6. Misc like kings, heroes, descriptions and graphical cosmetics like uniticons etc.

wilpuri
04-12-2004, 14:43
I made a little draft-map of Finland, and how I think it might be divided.

https://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/wilpuri/sekalaista/muinaissuomi.jpg

Tell me what you think..
The blue squares are the cities, and their names are in blue. The dark read text is the name of the province.

Trax
04-12-2004, 17:07
To achieve any kind of historical look Estonia should be divided in at least five provinces.

http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/11346/eestikaart.JPG

Considering the limited number of provinces available in MTW it is clearly too much.
Maybe three provinces then?

http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/11346/eestikaart3.jpg

wilpuri
04-12-2004, 17:42
I found a pretty good site for maps. It has a lot od old maps of Europe, which show who controlled what and and when: http://www.northvegr.org/lore/maps/index.php

Also, I realized, that Karelia on that map in my earlier post, could actually stretch all the way to modern day st-Petersburg, and include all but the eastern shores of Ladoga.

At the moment I am trying to find out some more about the other Baltic peoples, mainly the Livs and the different Baltic tribes (Kurlanders, Semgalls, Latgalls, Selons)..

EDIT:
I would seem that the major Baltic players south of Estonia were the Kurons, (or Kurlanders) and the Livonians. To my understanding modern Latvia was divided between The Livs and Kurons, something like this:
https://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/wilpuri/sekalaista/liivitjakuronit.jpg

The other Baltic tribes, Semgalls, Letgalls and selons inhabited the area east and south of Kurland, and most of modern Lithuania. These maps aren't absolutely correct, but they should give you a general Idea how to divide the Baltic.

Trax
04-12-2004, 18:21
Looking at this map it seems, that Livonians could have 2 provinces.
http://www.suri.ee/r/liivi/eng.html

PseRamesses
04-12-2004, 18:33
@Wilpurri,
Looks good to me. I also have sketched on a 5 prov Finland. Just hold on to the info you got until we need it (see above work schedule). Great link, holy xxxx

@Trax,
It might work with a 5 prov Estonia but we just have to see how it all fits in with it´s neighbours. The same counts for Livland. Hold on to all info until we need it (see above work schedule)

Did you guys have any use for the links I posted above?

Trax
04-12-2004, 18:47
Castle location for the possible province of Saaremaa
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/11346/valjala.jpg
Castle of Valjala

It was a most important stronghold in the end of the period
and also the last one to surrender to the crusaders in 1227.

Edit:
I found a true treasure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
a map of different baltic tribes in 8th -12th century.

http://aidenis.mch.mii.lt/Kankles/figures/fig_7.htm

wilpuri
04-12-2004, 19:44
Quote[/b] (Trax @ April 12 2004,12:47)]Edit:
I found a true treasure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
a map of different baltic tribes in 8th -12th century.

http://aidenis.mch.mii.lt/Kankles/figures/fig_7.htm
You are a treasure How do you suggest dividing up present day Latvia and Lithuania? The Curonians and Livs should have their own provinces, since they were colonized/put under viking rule for a while. They also became major players towards the end of the period..
But what about the rest?

Trax
04-12-2004, 20:16
Semigolians(Semgallians) were quite strong, they were the last to be conquerd by the crusaders, so they may deserve a province.
Samogitians belonged to Lithuania in later periods IIRC
so they could be second Lithuanian province.

Possible factions and faction borders.
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/11346/e_186b.jpg
1.Prussians
2.Lithuanians
3.Curonians
4.Semgallians
5.Latgals
6.Livonians

PseRamesses
04-13-2004, 00:06
You are both gems guys Great work and great link. I´ll think Norseman is going to award you guys some medals when he´ll be back... absolutely outstanding

Since we haven´t decided upon exactly how many provinces we should have in each region may I humbly suggest that you just gather the information. You can work with all possible factions that you can find in the Baltics, Russia and Finland. Then, when we feel that we have done the utmost to gather all info available, we can decide which factions to use, which ones that just ends up being rebels with unique stats etc etc. So don´t take away any or merge a couple of factions together.

PseRamesses
04-13-2004, 12:14
@Jay the Conqueror, @Eastside Character.
Useful links to shields, flags etc:

http://www.ngw.nl/
http://flagspot.net/flags/
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/alexflags/
http://www.hostkingdom.net/regindex.html

wilpuri
04-13-2004, 13:21
I found a geneology of Rurik, and successor rulers. It might prove useful:
http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/facts/rurik.html

And I also found a map of Novgorod and the surrounding territories, with trade routes included:
http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/geography/russia878.jpg

wilpuri
04-13-2004, 14:01
Staraya Ladoga (Old Ladoga), the ancient capital of Russia.

http://www.oldladoga.spb.ru/img/map.gif

The area Around Lake Ladoga was inhabited by various Finnic and Slavic tribes. The city of Staraya Ladoga was one of the greatest centres of trade in its time, far before the rise of Novgorod. Staraya Ladoga was established in the late 8th century. It linked the Northern Europe and the countries situated on the shores of the Black Sea, the Scandinavian and Baltic countries and Byzantium. Arms, lumber, furs, honey, wax, amber were supplied to the south and spices, jewelry and glass ware as well as expensive fabrics, books, bread and vine were exported in the opposite direction. Ladoga was first mentioned in the chronicles of the year 862 among ten of the most ancient towns of Russia. Until 864 the town was ruled by Riurik, a Varangian konung who later moved to “a small town” situated on the bank of the River Volkhov, the town later developed to become the Great Novgorod. However, even during the rule of Riurik’s successors Ladoga was still one of the most important trade centers and the northwest advanced post.

I think Novgorod and Staraya Ladoga should be two separate provinces, and may be even separate factions..
Well, you decide.

PseRamesses
04-13-2004, 16:39
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 13 2004,08:01)]I think Novgorod and Staraya Ladoga should be two separate provinces, and may be even separate factions..
Well, you decide.
I agree with you on that one. BTW the pic enclosed in the ladoga-mess doesn´t show in the thread but in last 10 posts when I reply/ quote your mess.

wilpuri
04-13-2004, 18:47
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ April 13 2004,10:39)]I agree with you on that one. BTW the pic enclosed in the ladoga-mess doesn´t show in the thread but in last 10 posts when I reply/ quote your mess.
I don't quite understand this? What are you trying to say?

Anyway, I tried to make a more accurate division of Finland. This is based mainly on the different dialects that were/are spoken in these areas. I think it's pretty accurate. The main settlements (and castles/forts)
Finland-Proper: Turku
Häme: Häme
Karelia: Käkisalmi

https://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/wilpuri/sekalaista/suomenjako.jpg

Edit: Another potentially useful map:
http://www.mordor.ch/beldarien/ars/IMAGES/map1.jpg

PseRamesses
04-13-2004, 23:53
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 13 2004,12:47)]
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ April 13 2004,10:39)]I agree with you on that one. BTW the pic enclosed in the ladoga-mess doesn´t show in the thread but in last 10 posts when I reply/ quote your mess.
I don't quite understand this? What are you trying to say?
Sorry, I hardly understood when reading it myself just now. I was saying that the Staraya-Ladoga picture don´t show but it does now so it must have been a temporary problem.

wilpuri
04-14-2004, 11:34
So, when is Norse coming back from his holidays? So we can get on with the mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Norseman
04-14-2004, 16:30
Quote[/b] ]So, when is Norse coming back from his holidays? So we can get on with the mod

I'm back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif



Quote[/b] ]
You are both gems guys Great work and great link. I´ll think Norseman is going to award you guys some medals when he´ll be back... absolutely outstanding


Medals are being handed out I'll have to spend some hours reading your posts, but at first glance it looks excellent. You seem to fill a big void in our info.

PseRamesses
04-15-2004, 17:16
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/PseR_FotN%20playarea.jpg

Now, this is the general play area we´re looking at. By tilting the map to the east (from red square to yellow) we can create more facs and shore provs and get rid of some unwanted inland and seasquares. The only downside to this is that the map is leaning to the east which generates an uncostomized view of northern Europe.

The map needs to be rezized some -10% in width and some 25-30% in height which furthermore increases the distorted and uncustomized view on the map. This is what I´m working now.
Increase the game play area you´d might say. Well, basically we then have to reduce the number of provs in England which we don´t want. So there´s a bit of a dilemma making this strategic map so that all variables get sufficiently satisfactory to all needs.

wilpuri
04-15-2004, 17:38
Good to hear that we are making progress. Let me know if you need something researched, I feel so idle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

PseRamesses
04-15-2004, 17:57
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 15 2004,11:38)]Good to hear that we are making progress. Let me know if you need something researched, I feel so idle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif
How about thoose petty Russian states then? I don´t think anyone is covering thoose. Se my earlier posts for kings-lists etc. Eastside Character is doing the Polish fac.

wilpuri
04-15-2004, 20:29
I found an excellent site with maps from all over the world, concerning historical periods. The site also has alot of historical information and royal lineages:
http://killeenroos.com/link/maps.html

Having trouble finding anything about other russian states than novgorod and staraya ladoga. I'll go to the library on the weekend, if i have time.

PseRamesses
04-16-2004, 11:45
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ April 15 2004,14:29)]Having trouble finding anything about other russian states than novgorod and staraya ladoga. I'll go to the library on the weekend, if i have time.
This info was posted by me earlier on this thread:

DRUTSK
Known as Dryutesk in the Middle Ages, this place no longer exists. Its site is within the modern Mogilev oblast of Belarus 25 miles (40 km.) west of Mogilev, and 80 miles (135 km.) east of Minsk.
To Polotsk until 1101...
RURIKOVICH-Polotsky
Boris I..................................1101-1128
Rogvolod.................................1128-1129
(to Polotsk..............................1129-1140)
Rogvolod (in Polotsk 1146-51) (restored).1140-1151
Gleb I...................................1151-1158
Rogvolod (in Polotsk 1158-62,re-restored)1158-1160
Gleb II..................................1160's- ?

GRODNO
Known as Gorodno in the Middle Ages. It is now the modern center of Grodno oblast of Belarus, located not far from the Poland/Lithuania frontier. This town was center of Cherno-Russia (Black Rus) until the early 13th century.
To tribal union of Dulebes until 8th century...
To tribal principality of Volynyanes...8th century-981
To Kiev........................................981-988
To Volhynia....................................988-1015
To Kiev.......................................1075-1036
To Volhynia...................................1036-1057
To Kiev.......................................1057-1078
To Volhynia...................................1078-1084
RURIKOVICH-Gorodensky
Vsevolod I....................................1084-?
Mstislav I..................................1090's-1116
Vladiko.......................................1116-1141
Boris.........................................1141-1150's
Gleb........................................1150's-1167
Mstislav II...................................1167-117 ?
R.-Vitebsky
Izyaslav....................................1170's-1185
Vsevolod II...................................1185-?

IZYASLAVL
Now called Zaslavl, it is a town in Minsk oblast of Belarus 12 miles (20 km.) northwest of Minsk.
To Polotsk until 976...
To Novgorod....................................976-980
To Kiev............................................980
RURIKOVICH
Izyaslav I (in Polotsk from 988)...............980-1001
Vseslav I (also in Minsk).....................1001-1003
To Polotsk....................................1003-1101
David (in Polotsk 1116-27)....................1101-1116
Bryachislav I.................................1116-1127
David (in Polotsk 1128-29) (restored).........1127-1128
Bryachislav I (restored)......................1128-1129
To Polotsk....................................1129-1146
Bryachislav II (in Vitebsk 1167-86)...........1146-1151
Vsevolod......................................1151-1158
Bryachislav II (restored).....................1158-1159
Vsevolod (restored)................................1159
Bryachislav II (re-restored)..................1159-
Basil (in Vitebsk 118 ? -1221)................1167-118 ?
Vladimir (in Polotsk from 1197).............118 ? -1215

MINSK
Modern capital of Belarus. Originally called Menesk, the modern name dates from the14-15th centuries. From late 12th cent. to mid 14 cent. there is no information about rulers of Menesk, except Pr.Basil (c.1326).
To tribal union of Dregoviches...........5th-8th centuries
To tribal union of Kriviches........8th-early 9th centuries
To tribal union of Polochanes
(West Kriviches).....ea. 9th cent.-870's
To Novgorod..................................870's-882
To Kiev........................................882-972
To Novgorod....................................972-980
To Kiev............................................980
To Polotsk.....................................980-1001
RURIKOVICH
Vseslav (also in Izyaslavl)...................1001-1003
To Polotsk....................................1003-1101
Gleb..........................................1101-1118
To Turov......................................1119-1146
Rostislav (in Polotsk 1151-58)................1146-1160's
Volodar (in Polotsk 1167)...................1160's- ?
Vladimir.................................fl. late 12th cent.

NOVGORODOK
Now called Novogrudok, a town in modern Grodno oblast of Belarus about 75 miles (120 km.) east of Grodno and a similar distance west of Minsk. This town, a center of Cherno-Russia from the early 13th century, was a sub-Principality under Grodno in the 12th and 13th centuries, then a Principality within the Lithuanian sphere of influence from 1239.
To Grodno until 1175...
RURIKOVICH
Vsevolod (in Grodno from 1185).........1170's-1185
Basil (in Grodno ? -1219)................1185-1 ?
Izyaslav.................................. ? -1239

PINSK
In Brest oblast of Belarus, near the Pina river before it enters the Pripyat. Sub-principality 1184-96, Grand Principality 1196-early 14th century.
To Kiev.....................................c. 890-988
To Turov.......................................988-1010
To Kiev.......................................1010-1078
To Turov......................................1078-1196
RURIKOVICH
Svyatopolk....................................1184-1190
Vladimir I....................................1190-1228
Rostislav.....................................1228-1241
To Mongols....................................1241-c. 1325
Michael I.....................................1241-1245
Vladimir II...................................1245-12 ?
Theodore......................................12 ?-126 ?
George I......................................126 ?-1289
Diomede I.....................................1289- ?

POLOTSK
A town built near the Polota river as it flows into the West Dvina (Daugava). After death of Prince Svyatoslav the Warlike of Kiev (972) it was captured by Varyags (Sweden vikings) and ruled by Ragnvald who became the first prince of Polotsk. Later recaptured by Kiev, it became the most significant of the White Russian Principalities during the Middle Ages.
To Novgorod....................................870's-882
To Kiev........................................882-972
Rogvolod I (Ragnvald)..........................972-976
To Kiev........................................976-980
RURIKOVICH
Izyaslav I.....................................980-1001
Briachislav the Brave.........................1001-1044
Vseslav the Werewolf..........................1044-1066
To Kiev.......................................1067-1068
Vseslav the Werewolf (restored)...............1068-1069
Mstislav I.........................................1069
Svyatopolk (in Kiev 1093-1113)................1069-1071
Vseslav the Werewolf (re-restored)............1071-1101
Roman.........................................1101-1116
David (in Izyaslavl 1101-1116)................1116-1127
Rogvolod II...................................1127-1128
David (restored)..............................1128-1129
Izyaslav II (in Kiev 1146-1154)...............1129-1132
Svyatopolk II (in Novgorod 1142-48)................1132
Vasilko the Restorer..........................1132-1146
Rogvolod III..................................1146-1151
Rostislav.....................................1151-1158
Rogvolod III (restored).......................1158-1162
Vseslav II (in Vitebsk 1146-62)...............1161-1167
Volodar............................................1167
Vseslav II (restored).........................1167-118 ?
Bryachislav I (in Vitebsk from 1167)........118 ? -1186
Boris.........................................1186-1197
Vladimir......................................1197-1216
Basil II (in Vitebsk from 1186)...............1216-1221
Svyatoslav (in Smolensk 1232-1235)............1221-1232
Bryachislav II................................1232-124 ?
Occupied at some point by Mongols..................1240's
MINDAUGAS
Tovtivil.....................................12 ? -1263
Another Lithuanian family
Erden I.......................................1263-12 ?
Edivid I the Wolf............................12 ? -12 ?
To Lithuania directly....................c. 1240's-1315

TUROV
A Russian Principality during the Middle Ages, located in what is now southern Belarus.
To Kiev.....................................c. 890-988
RURIKOVICH
Svyatopolk I the Damned........................988-1010
To Kiev.......................................1010-1078
Yaropolk I....................................1078-1087
Svyatopolk II.................................1087-1113
Roman I.......................................1113-1119
Vyacheslav I..................................1119-1133
Izyaslav I....................................1133-1134
Vyacheslav I (restored).......................1134-1141
Svyatoslav I the Old..........................1141-1142
Vyacheslav I (re-restored)....................1142-1146
Yaroslav I of Luchesk.........................1146-1150
Andrew of Bogolubov (in Vladimir 1156-1174)...1150-1151
Yaroslav I of Luchesk (restored)..............1151-1154
Svyatoslav I the Old (restored)...............1154-1155
Boris I.......................................1155-1157
George I the Old..............................1157-1184
Yaroslav II...................................1184-1180's
Svyatopolk III..............................1180's-1190
Gleb I........................................1190-1196
Rostislav I...................................1196-1228
It is unknown who ruled in Turov after 1228 when Rostislav became Grand Prince of Pinsk. Turov might have become the possession of one of Rostislav's younger brothers, or a possession of the heir to Pinsk, or it might have been ruled directly by Pinsk. By the 14th century and later, Turov district was within the Principality of Pinsk.

VITEBSK
Modern center of Vitebsk oblast of Belarus. A sub-Principality under Polotsk 1101-1129, a Principality within the Polotsk sphere of influence 1140-1240's, A Grand Principality 1240's-1316, and a Principality within Lithuania 1316-1436.
To Kiev until 1010...
To Smolensk..............................1010-1015
To Kiev..................................1015-1021
To Polotsk...............................1021-1101
RURIKOVICH
Svyatoslav...............................1101-1129
Rostislav................................1101-1129
To Polotsk...............................1129-1140
Vyacheslav...............................1140-1146
Vseslav (in Polotsk 1162-8?).............1146-1162
Roman....................................1162-1165
David (in Smolensk 1180-97)..............1165-1167
Bryachislav I (in Polotsk 118 ? -86).....1167-118 ?
Basil I (in Polotsk from 1216)...........118 ? -1221
Bryachislav II (in Polotsk from 1232)....1221-1232
Basil II.................................1232-12 ?
Yaroslav I...............................12 ? -1316

So now you have something more to search for. Most of theese where just city-states and petty kingdoms that off and on was under the Rurikovich-dynasty´s rule.

PseRamesses
04-18-2004, 11:31
I found theese maps of the Baltics and Russia.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/baltics_1000.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/baltics_1220.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/baltics_1270.jpg

German expasion to the east in 800-1400AD:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....400.jpg (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/german_settlements_800_1400.jpg)

The Netherlands region:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/western_empire_843.jpg

Regarding our discussion on religion earlier I found this:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....300.jpg (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/christianity_dev_1300.jpg)
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....097.jpg (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_mediterranean_1097.jpg)

All theese links above comes from this superb site:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/index.html

PseRamesses
04-19-2004, 12:28
Hi crew,
This is a possible factions summary at the present and a request for more faction research:

7-8 English factions: Saxons, Mercians, Welsh, Northumbrians, Pitcs, Scots, 2 Irish factions if possible.

Mainland Europe: French, Dutch, 3 German factions; Franks, Obodrites, Veletis and one Polish faction.

7 Baltic factions: Prussians, Curonians, Selons, Latgalls, Semgalls, Livonians, Estonians
Russians
1-3 Finn factions: (Finns); Varsinais, Tavastians, Karelians

* So what we really needs to cover right now is verifying the accuracy of having three German factions. The Franks are a must.
* Some research on the Dutch area.
* The possibility to split France with Normands??? I´m not to familiar with that area and time so any assistance is apreciated.

This will bring us up to around 23-26 non-viking factions. Just want to sum up the factions possible before Norse and I present you guys with a surprise

PseRamesses
04-19-2004, 14:16
Found some facts of regions in the Netherland area that might be useful in creating a faction with. Althogh part of the Frankish kingdom under Charlemange and the east Frankish kingdom from around 870AD this area has a historical unruly past and strong self-independence.

FLANDERS
During most of the last 1,000 years, the people of what is now Nord/ Pas-de-Calais would not have thought of themselves as French. Back in the 9th century, strong local lords with castles and knights on horseback were their only protection from Norman raids, the only saviours of Christianity. While Norman knights ruled England from 1066, the Count of Flanders had castles in Lille, Douai and several other towns - controlling an area including not only the low-lying borders of northern France, but also what is now Belgium and the Netherlands. The Count was supposed to owe loyalty to the king of France, but the king was weak and safely distant. Like lords in other outlying areas such as Brittany in the west and Burgundy in the east, the Count ruled Flanders up in the north pretty much as a separate kingdom
Baldwin I With the Iron Arm....................858-879
Baldwin II the Bald............................879-918
Arnulf I the Great.............................918-964
Baldwin III....................................960-962
Arnulf II......................................964-988
Baldwin IV Greatbeard..........................988-1036
Baldwin V the Pious...........................1036-1067
Baldwin VI the Good...........................1067-1070
Arnulf III the Unlucky........................1070-1072
Robert I the Frisian..........................1072-1092
Robert II the Crusader........................1092-1111
Baldwin VII With the Axe......................1111-1119
Charles I the Good............................1119-1127
William I Clito...............................1127-1128
Dietrich......................................1128-1168
Philip I......................................1168-1191
Margaret I (fem.).............................1191-1194
Baldwin VIII the Brave (Hainault 1171-1195)...1191-1195
Baldwin IX (Hainault: Latin Emperor 1204-5)...1195-1205
Jeanne (fem.) (Hainault)......................1205-1244
Margaret II (fem.) (Hainault 1244-53, 56-79)..1244-1279


HOLLAND
County of West Frisia (the northern part of the province of North-Holland, including the island of Texel.
Gerulf I...................................fl. 833-856
Gerulf II..................................fl. 885-889
Dirk I.....................................fl. 921-928
Dirk I (apparently different from above)...fl. 928-939
Dirk II..................................c. 939 ? -988
Arnulf of Ghent................................988-993
Dirk III Jerusalem-Farer.......................993-1039
Dirk IV.......................................1039-1049
Florent I.....................................1049-1061
Dirk V........................................1061-1091
(County of Holland; possibly named as such from c. 1083, certainly by 1101)
Florent II the Fat............................1091-1121
Dirk VI.......................................1121-1157
Florent III...................................1157-1190
Dirk VII......................................1190-1203
William I.....................................1203-1222
Florent IV....................................1222-1234
William II....................................1234-1256
Florent V the Peasant's God...................1256-1296
John I........................................1296-1299


FRISIA
Radbod I.......................................679-719
Eadgils II (or Poppo)..........................719-734
To the Carolingian Empire......................734-843
Gundebold (or Poppo)...........................734-777
Radbod II (or Dirk)............................777-806
Within Germany, and the Holy Roman Empire......800-810
Danish occupation..............................810-885
Rorik..........................................839-876/82
Godfrey........................................882-885
Within Germany and the Empire..................885-1648
Note the presence of the Gerulfings (see Holland) on the western side of the Zuider Zee and the island of Texel, who referred to themselves as Counts of West Frisia from c. 900 to 1101.
Ansfried (Bishop of Utrecht)..............fl... c. 985?
BRUNONING These Counts were, for the most part, absentee landlords, having more connections and interest with other estates located elsewhere. That being the case, affairs in Frisia rapidly began to assume the character that was maintained for over 400 years - that of a patchwork of purely local estates (mostly monastic), interspersed with market towns which were, in effect, Free States themselves.
Liudolf.....................................c.1000-1038
Bruno.........................................1038-1057
Egbert I......................................1057-1068
Egbert II.....................................1068-1088
Conrad (Bishop of Utrecht)....................1088-1099
vacant 1099-1101
Henry I the Fat...............................1101
vacant 1101-1107
Henry II......................................1107-c. 1138


LIEGE
A Prince-Bishopric in central Belgium holding a large territory. Tongeren and Maastricht are two towns north and northeast of Liege. Tongeren is in northeastern Belgium, Maastricht is located at the end of a narrow southern panhandle of the Netherlands. Each was an ecclesiastic seat, Maastricht superceding Tongeren and being absorbed in turn by Liege.
Hubert.........................................706-727
Florebert I....................................727-746
Fulcher......................................?.747-765
Agilfrid.......................................765-784
Gerobald.....................................?.784-809
Walkand........................................810-836
Pirard.........................................836-840
Hirchar........................................841-855
Franco.........................................856-903
Stephen........................................903-920
Richard........................................920-945
Hugh I.........................................945-947
Florebert II...................................947-953
Rather.........................................954-956
Balderic I.....................................956-959
Heraclius......................................959-972
Rotger.........................................972-1007
Balderic II van Looz..........................1007-1018
Walbod........................................1018-1021
Durand........................................1021-1025
Reginar.......................................1025-1038
Nithard.......................................1039-1042
Azzo..........................................1042-1048
Dietrich of Bavaria...........................1048-1075
Henry I de Toul...............................1075-1091
Otbert........................................1092-1119
Frederick de Namur............................1119-1121
Alberon I de Louvain..........................1121-1128
Alexander I von Jülich........................1128-1135
Alberon II de Namur...........................1135-1145
Henry II von der Leyen........................1145-1164
Alexander II von Orle.........................1165-1167
Rudolph von Zahringen.........................1167-1191
Albert de Brabant.............................1191-1192
Lothar von Hochstaden.........................1192-1193
Simon van Limburg.............................1193-1195
Otto von Heinsberg.................................1195
Albert II van Cuyck...........................1195-1200
Hugh II Pierrepont............................1200-1229
John II de Rumigny............................1229-1238
William of Savoy..............................1238-1239
Robert I Thorote..............................1240-1246
Henry III van Gelders.........................1247-1274
John III de Enghien...........................1274-1281
William II de Auvergne.............................1282
John IV of Flanders...........................1282-1292

What da ya´ll think?

wilpuri
04-19-2004, 14:25
This mod is starting to look really promising http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

PseRamesses
04-19-2004, 15:25
Earlier E.C mentioned three possible german factions; the Frankish, the Obodrites and the Veletis. Has anyone more info on theese states?

Gore
04-19-2004, 16:11
Is this mod finished?

PseRamesses
04-19-2004, 21:55
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 19 2004,12:55)]

Quote[/b] ] I'm now quite busy with researching so I don't post much here, but believe me I'm there doing things.

Don´t feel stressed EC. I just wanted to know if you need any assistance since most of the facs have been researched.


Quote[/b] ]As for German faction(s), it all depends on the exact date we'd be looking at. The Empire of Charles the Great would no doubt be one faction that must be here.

Well, his empire crumbled around 800AD so it would be possible to start the game, let´s say around 775BC since you can´t view any of your neighbours for the first decade or so before you build border forts, ports, ships etc. This will alow us to make a around 300 turns campaign and end it around 1066AD, preferably ort even up to 1100 AD.


Quote[/b] ] So this already gives 4 'frankish' factions, which as I believe is quite enough.

I agree, that would be preferable and satisfactory.


Quote[/b] ] I'm now working on dividing the area from Brittany to Finland into provinces. I'm done with the west, up to Poland, plus I also placed there those Estonian and Finnish provinces. I'll post the link to what I'm working on, later, so everyone will see what I'm talking about.

Sounds absolutely outstanding to me EC. Keep in mind though that you take a look at Wilpurri´s and Trax´ research, that´s beeen posted earlier in this thread, before doing anything radical, ok?


Quote[/b] ] And when will be the campaign(s) set? It's simply crucial for researching factions.

Let´s settle for approximately 775-1100AD, since it doesn´t matter if we move it a decade or so. When this mod is finished Norse and I are actually thinking of making a 3 era game from around 550-1300AD so any info regarding other eras is important. For now we agreed upon the significance of releasing v1.

PseRamesses
04-19-2004, 22:00
Quote[/b] (Gore @ April 19 2004,10:11)]Is this mod finished?
Nope. Since Norse has a degree to study for and I´ve limited time I think it would be reasonable to plan a release in the summertime. But it also depends on how many people that help us out with time consuming things like faction research, text-file editing, graphics, map-making etc. As you can see, on earlier posts, our ranks are growing each week but at this point it´s best not to set a date since we all want this mod to portray the viking era in the best way possible rather than releasing something half-finished. Wouldn´t you agree?

Norseman
04-19-2004, 22:29
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 19 2004,23:21)]
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 19 2004,12:55)]I'll post the link to what I'm working on, later, so everyone will see what I'm talking about.
here (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/indexxxxx.html?1082409095700)

Regards,
EC
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Trax
04-19-2004, 23:53
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 20 2004,01:21)]
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 19 2004,12:55)]I'll post the link to what I'm working on, later, so everyone will see what I'm talking about.
here (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/indexxxxx.html?1082409095700)

Edit1: The question marks mark the provinces I think might be split or erased to give some room elsewhere. I personally'd like to see a separate province of Rugen, as its capital, Arkona, was a major religious center with a magnificent temple housing a statue of slavic diety Swietowit (the largest slavic diety statue that was ever created). It'd be cool to see Jomsborg in game as well, so I think maybe making Wolin a province, or at least splitting Pomerania in two (west and east) would be a good idea. I also don't think Estonia needs all those provinces there. As for the western europe, there aren't many provinces, but they should be made considerably wealthier compared to all those other tiny regions I believe, to keep the balance and do not overpower Frankish state(s).

Edit2: The regions with red crosses on them are not included, their capiatals are located outside the borders of this map, and thus it makes no sense to me to include them.

Regards,
EC
I think you could go for the 3 province variant for Estonia
and give one free province to Livonians and use the second somewhere else(there are some too big provinces in france and Germany IMHO.

PseRamesses
04-20-2004, 00:54
Quote[/b] (Trax @ April 19 2004,17:53)]
Great work and suggestions EC.


Quote[/b] ] I think you could go for the 3 province variant for Estonia and give one free province to Livonians and use the second somewhere else(there are some too big provinces in france and Germany IMHO.

Remember that we can also use minor faction provinces as rebels. Personally I´d like to see one more Finn-prov, Ile de France divided with Anjou and maybee a Frisia province. See my earlier post above.

PseRamesses
04-20-2004, 21:13
Since we´re covering all the possible factions, planning provinces and researching everything at such a pace I think it´s time I´ll let you guys in on a little secret that Norse and I´ve been planning from the start of this mod:

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

There´s going to be 8 viking factions in this mod

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/jawdrop.gif

Yes, your eyes doesn´t fail you - 8. Three for Norway, three for Sweden and 2 for Denmark.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

wilpuri
04-21-2004, 11:06
Guys, this looks great Put in my opinion Savo-Karelia should stretch further south on the Karelian isthmus. Check the second map that i posted.

EDIT: The Livonian province is too small. I think two provinces should be livonian. Another way to go about it would be uniting the two Livonian provinces. Look at Trax' map of the baltic tribes.

Trax
04-21-2004, 11:18
Very nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

One minor point, could you rename the south Estonian province to
Ugandi, I think it was more important then Sakala and the province castle (Tarbatu or Tartu) would also be located there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

wilpuri
04-21-2004, 12:33
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 21 2004,06:06)]Wilpuri, I know that Savo-Karelia stretched further south on your map, but on that other map of Russian states you posted, Novgorod occupied the territory you're now arguing about. Tha map is a kind of compromise, as in different times, the provinces had different shapes. The same goes for Poland for example, the shape of it would be different in 800 and different in 1000.
The map i posted concerning the Staraya-Ladoga area is from PRESENT times, just to show you guys where the city/town itself was. The second I posted is pretty much the Karelian province or it's sphere of influence. Isn't Staraya Ladoga going to get it's own province?

Trax
04-21-2004, 13:49
What is the name of the province between Ugandi and Semgalia?

Trax
04-21-2004, 18:02
I tought that Livonia is the small province between Curonia and the sea. The big one between Ugandi and Semgalia could be
Latgalia(?) perhaps?

Trax
04-21-2004, 18:42
Sorry. I am still not leaving you alone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Are these two areas one and the same province despite being divided by the sea?
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/11346/map.jpg

Norseman
04-21-2004, 18:54
Wilpuri, Trax and EC
I'm really impressed by your contributions the last week. Your information and work will undoubtedly prove to be invaluable for the mod. I now consider you to be part of the dev team(well, if you want to) and you have more than earned the right to have your say and influence how the game will eventually be.


Quote[/b] ]It'd be the best if Norseman or PseRamesses also expressed their opinions about it.

I'm sorry I haven't given you more feedback, I've been really busy, and will probably be so for at least another 1 1/2 month.

As for the map and regions, I had a plan when I first started this mod. The idea was that France and Germany, and possibly a 3rd Frankish and a polish faction, should have their capitals in large inland regions without borders. That is, no troop movements(attacks...) can take place across their borders. These factions will own coastal regions from the start, but then can't aid these regions if attacked(...by vikings). Reasons for making it this way are:
1) To simulate the fact that Vassals were appointed to protect their land for the king, and that the King were often not able to help his Vassal if he was attacked. A good example of this is Normandy in 910.
2) Vikings relied totally on their ships when expanding, attacking only regions accessible from the sea. In mainland Europe they, with few exceptions, didn't engage in large scale war. For this reason I don't think a Viking faction player should be able to conquer central inland regions, except as historically in Eastern Europe/Baltics and England.
3) The borderless capital regions serve as safe havens for the Frankish factions. In other words, they won't get wiped out easily(historically they were there throughout the whole of our timeframe) and can provide financial backing for the coastal regions, making them harder to take.

If we decide to follow this plan, we get a few more regions along the coast, like one for Staraya Ladoga(spelling?) which I've often seen mentioned as one of the important towns for vikings. We can for example merge HESSE, TURINGIA and LUSATIA-MESSEN, and maybe also ILE DE FRANCE and CHAMPAGNE. If you guys don't like this plan though, I won't be stubborn about it.

Keep in mind that the number of regions in England, Ireland and Scandinavia is not definitely set either. We must make a plan for each of them(Ireland and England left) and then review them all as one map, before we make any final decisions.

We must also discuss the Idea about using sea-regions as rivers inland. If we can make it work technically, the only drawback I can see about it is that these will be usable for all factions. But then again the Vikings will be the only factions with early access to ships.

BTW, I have just started on making the tech-tree file, and have some ideas when it comes to castles. It needs testing first though, and we should concentrate our efforts on finishing the map first.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Trax
04-21-2004, 22:30
Quote[/b] ]Yes, it's one and the same province.
Well in that case it would be good idea to simply add the smaller part to Curonia, otherwise it just feels strange to me.


About making Frankish nations stronger, there should be some way to represent the income they get from out of the map areas.

PseRamesses
04-21-2004, 22:37
Welcome aboard gang - my fellow dev teamsters ;)

What I´d like at this stage, as Norse pointed out, is a bit more flexibel and loosly formed discussion on provinces and factions. We have to weigh province against province, region against region in the end anyway and the more facts and intel we gather until that point in time is crucial to the final decision. As Norse mentioned he´s pretty much occupied for another 1 1/2 month. That´s why I´m trying out so many different solutions to the strat map, since I don´t feel pressured to produce the final one yesterday. In the end I´m gonna give you all a couple of option to choose from.

I didn´t want to spam the whole thread by answering and quoting you each so from the top of my head here´s my thoughts.

*Regarding adding a prov in France I feel it´s a good idea.
*Taking away important Polish/ German and French provinces to be able to place more petty provs in the Baltics isn´t a sound idea.
*The Staraya-Ladoga/ Novgorod conflict is really not a prob since there will be ample of space to place them both. Take a look at my map on page 5 in this thread and you´ll see I´m right. S.L was hugely important in the viking-world so I belive it´s a must to present that region correctly.
*Regarding the divided-prov in the bay of Riga I think it´s better to let it stretch around the bay, If we decide to keep it. I know that the correct historical representation was on both sides of the bay but as EC said earlier on other prov conflicts in time, it´s a compromize.
*Regarding 6 Russian provs I think, if you take a look at the map on p5, should be more like 8 since I (personally) would like to fit Kiev into the lower south-east corner.
*Regarding unconquarable inland-provs I concur with Norse for the reason that this wasn´t meant to be a domination type of mod - just a more accurate presentation of the viking era. On the other hand EC has a point: What If....
That´s also an important aspect of the very reason we play this great game, right? I think we should think this Q over. What we´d really like to se in the mod and how to go about making it so.

Anyway, if you guys like to use the official FotN avatar as your sig when posting on the forum I´ll PM you the link to it.

PseRamesses
04-23-2004, 12:32
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 23 2004,02:32)]

Quote[/b] ]I also made some flags already, will post a link later.
here (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/flags.html?1082704699160)
Well, only three now, but that's better that nothing. I have difficulty finding what should be the flags for Baltic peoples (I only have flag for Lithuanians).

Great work EC
Norse has made a huge amount of Norvegian shields that looks very promising. The main problem is that very few records, if none, have been found from the timeframe of the mod. What we can do is to improvise with the following guidelines.

1. The dominating families usually had some banner, crest or symbol even if it´s from a later era we can still use it.
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/alexflags/sweden.html

2. It´s common that different regions within a country has a banner or province crest. This can also be used.
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/alexflags/teutonic_order.html

3. Take a look at each country´s arm. Ex. Sweden has many different symbols like three crowns from one family, a wheat bundle from another, lions from yet another family etc etc. Each of theese symbols derives from significant families and we can improvise from that.
http://www.ngw.nl/

So do feel free to improvise and please do post thoughts suggestions etc in this thread or PM Norse if you have personal Q´s.

Norseman
04-23-2004, 18:25
Faction shields and colours

Quote[/b] ]
Norse has made a huge amount of Norvegian shields that looks very promising.

Just to set the record strait, I didn't make them, and they are only simple gif images of Norwegian regional shields. I think they can serve us well as inspiration, because many of them use the same type of symbols that Vikings are believed to have used; animals/plants familiar to them from their homelands and simple geometric figures inspired by nature, like the sun, waves etc.

I have found two symbols that apparantly is known to have been used:
1) The black crow(obviously) seems to have been a common battleflag
2) The Norse faction that eventually united Norway is believed to have used a yellow ring on red. These colours lead to the colours on the royal Coat of Arms from 1100; a yellow lion on red.

I'll send you the gifs if you're interested EC.

PseR, how about using some of these for the Swedish factions as well? IMO most of those regional shields of Sweden looks too modern, more like 13-1400 knightly Coat of Arms. Among the gifs there is for instance a couple of bear symbols. I thought maybe one of them could suit a swedish faction well. Just my opinion.


Quote[/b] ]
Quote
I also made some flags already, will post a link later.

here

Well, only three now, but that's better that nothing.

EC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif , those flags look really great, but before you make more I think maybe we all should have a serious discussion on what factions actually should be in the mod and what colours they will have. Then we won't risk doing things twice.


Quote[/b] ]
I also don't know whether to make new flag for the Germans (black eagle on yellow background, and not like it is in MTW - the other way round),

Problem is already solved http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Re Berengarion made new factionshields for HRE in his Millenium Mod: Black eagle on Yellow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Lord Zimoa of Flanders
04-23-2004, 19:48
Following all this work guys i think you do great so far,keep it up...

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

wilpuri
04-23-2004, 23:55
Hmm... There is very little I can do to help you with any historical finnish flags/emblems, but I have a few ideas which are at least possible.

The Karelian emblem:
A figure of a goddess found in several caves in rock paintings around Karelia:
http://www.nba.fi/NATMUS/MUSEUM/Opetus/kalliom2.gif

The Häme flag/emblem:
The bear and the Elk were very important animals and there was a bear cult still alive in the beginning of the last century. So may be a simple, black on white bear paw would be good for the Häme faction.

Varsinaissuomi:
Some simple form/symbol of a boat, with or without sail (if with sail, very similar to viking ships), since trade was very important, and contacts to the west and Åland/Ahvenanmaa were quite strong, esp. Åland. (potential province? certainly important trade-wise).

Solo
04-24-2004, 09:12
graphist looking for job atm if you need any help

PseRamesses
04-24-2004, 10:42
Quote[/b] (Norseman @ April 23 2004,12:25)]

Quote[/b] ] PseR, how about using some of these for the Swedish factions as well? IMO most of those regional shields of Sweden looks too modern, more like 13-1400 knightly Coat of Arms. Among the gifs there is for instance a couple of bear symbols. I thought maybe one of them could suit a swedish faction well. Just my opinion.

Well, the three major families that I think we should use as factions (Västgötar, Östgötar and Upsvear or Svear) in the mod had banners/ crests that I know how they looked in the 11th and 12th century but having a darn hard time finding pre-existing ones on the net.

Take a look at this link as an example:
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/alexflags/sweden.html

The banner of Sweden contains three lions, representing three kingdoms. Thoose three kingdoms where the ones mentioned above.
Take a look at The House of Folkunga (Östgötar). It contains one of the lions and the colors are blue, yellow and white. The very same colors used by king Canut in the 12th century since he derived from the Folkunga dynasty. This is how I try to narrow down the possibilities of a crest containing this or that color, this or that symbol etc to reach a point where I can say that theese colors are likely to have been representing this faction. This way we get a palette of colors and/ or symbols for a faction/ family that we can create a shield from. Long explanation but you understand how I´m thinking heh?

Norse, back to your proposition. I´ve actually gone through the shields with that exact goal in mind. It still amazes me how we think alike :D

Trax
04-25-2004, 00:33
I don´t know? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Oak tree maybe, totally fictional, but it was a holy tree for ancient Estonians.

PseRamesses
04-25-2004, 18:23
Quote[/b] (Trax @ April 24 2004,18:33)]I don´t know? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Oak tree maybe, totally fictional, but it was a holy tree for ancient Estonians.
Your guess is probably better than ours Trax. I think your cult-idea is sound and probable. What shield where used later on by the Estonians? Could you extract something from there? Like colors, symbols etc.

PseRamesses
04-25-2004, 21:33
Latest faction update:

* 3 Norwegian
* 3 Swedish
* 2 Danish
* 6 English
* 2 Irish (if possible)
* West Franks
* Dutch Dutchy, would be nice to have something more in this area than just the Franks.
* East Franks
* 2 additional German tribes
* Polish
* Russians plus a number of petty states more or less under Russian rule at some point. Q: make them kingdoms or just specified rebels?
*Finns
*Estonians
*Lettland/ Livonian/ Lithuanian representation not settled but I belive the info we got on theese are the info in the thread. This adds up to 28 so we only have room for a couple of more facs in the Baltic/ Russian area.

The big X right now IMO is; How to divide the area around Russia, Lettland, Livonia and Lithuania? Trax and Wilpurri´s research on this has proven unvaluable this far and some more research on early Russian city states still needs to be done before we can pin down this area defenitely. Any more suggestions or thoughts?

PseRamesses
04-26-2004, 18:00
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ April 25 2004,16:04)]Well, I think, how about to merge Samogitia with Lithuania and Rugen with Veletia maybe? Then there could be Staraya Ladoga and something else.
I think that Rugen was an important stronghold and it would be great to keep it and I don´t feel that it would be proper to merge Samo with Lith either. In the end we might have to steal a prov or two from elsewhere like England. I´m really beginning to realize that a 40-45 province England is quite unrealistic. Originally we just wanted to keep all the original provs from VI but it seems that it won´t be doable in the long run.

wilpuri
05-01-2004, 11:39
Where can I see these?

EDIT: About the division into cultures, I feel that The Baltic + Russian states could be one culture, Then British + Central European Catholics could be one culture and the vikings could form the third culture.

PseRamesses
05-01-2004, 12:21
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 01 2004,05:32)]1. According to the list above, the map is the most important thing that first needs to be done. If so, I think someone should draw the provinces of Great Britain, and then we could put all the regions together, discuss them all once more, and start making the campmap. Obviously, sea regions have to be done as well. Then having the map done, we could move further to step 2 (from the list above) and get the things going.

2. I have made some more flags for:
- The Franks (Charlemagne)
- The Normans (following the pattern of the banner of Duke William of Normandy a.k.a. William the Conqueror)
- The Germans/HRE (black eagle on yellow background)
- The Hame
- The Karelians
- The Suomi
- The Estonians
- The Lotharingians
(Can post a link to pics if anyone's interested.)

3. Soon I'll start making other shields/flag images.

4. Going back to Scandinavian factions once again, I'd like to know what were their names (it'd be easier to find some suitable symbols for them). What I know now is that the three Swedish factions are (if not, somebody please correct me):
- The House of Erik
- The House of Sverker (Svea faction?)
- The House of Folkunga (Gotland faction?)

5. I have no idea what should be the names for Danish, and Norwegian factions.
1. As I told you before I´m making the map and it will be finished in due time. In order to fit as many regions into England, close to the ones used in VI, I´m currently enlarging certain parts of England. The problem is, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that we have to tilt the map some 15 degrees and stretch it around 25-30%. This makes the map look wrong. This is the main reason why I´m still working on it. As you know Norse will be very occupied with his degree for another 4-5 weeks and I don´t have unlimited time to do this faster than I´m doing at the moment, sorry.
Just be patient.

2. Ofcourse we´d like to see them ;)

3. Great

4. I don´t think we should focus on families but rather regions in Sweden since there where three main regions represented by different families within each region for the powerstruggle from time to time as yo can see from the kings-list below. The three different factions should be: Västgötar, Östgötar and Svear.

Kingdom of Uppsala, from roughly the 8th century on...
Sigurd
Ragnar Lodbrok................................. ? -794
Bjorn I Ironside...............................794-804
Eric Bjornsson.................................804-808
Eric Raefillsson...............................808-815
Bjorn II....................................c. 829-c. 845
Anund..........................................fl. c. 845
Olaf...........................................fl. c. 850
Eric Emundsson, Weather-Hat.................... ? -882
Ring...........................................fl. c. 936
Eric...........................................fl. c. 950?
Emund I........................................ ? -c. 970
Kingdom of Sweden from about this time...
Eric VIII the Victorious....................c. 970-994
Olaf Skottkonung...............................994-1023
Anund Jacob...................................1023-1050
Emund II the Old..............................1050-1060

STENKIL FAMILY
Stenkil.......................................1060-1066
Eric Stenkilsson..............................1066-1067
Eric..........................................1066-1067
Halstan.......................................1067-c.1070
Anund (Usurper, Yngling dynasty)................c. 1070
Haakon the Red (Usurper, unknown dynasty)..c. 1070-1079
Inge I the Elder..............................1079-1084
Halstan (restored)............................1079-1084

SVENDING (Sverker hereafter)
Blood-Sven....................................1084-1087

STENKIL
Inge I the Elder (restored)...................1087-1110
Erik Årsäll...................................1087-1088
Philip........................................1110-1118
Inge II the Younger...........................1110-1125

KNAPHOVDE
Ragnvald (in the north).......................1125-1126

SKIOLDING
Magnus Nielssen, the Strong (in the west).....1125-1134

SVERKER
Sverker I the Elder (in the east, then all)...1125-1156

JEDWAERDING (Erik hereafter)
Eric IX Jedwaerdsson, the Saint...............1150-1160

SKIOLDUNG
Magnus Henriksson.............................1160-1161

SVERKER
Charles I.....................................1161-1167
Kol...........................................1167-c.1170
Burislev......................................1167-c.1170

ERIK
Cnut I........................................1167-1196

SVERKER
Sverker II....................................1196-1208
ERIK
Eric X........................................1208-1216
John I........................................1216-1222
ERIK
Eric XI.......................................1222-1229

JOHANSSON
Cnut II.......................................1229-1234
ERIK
Eric XI (restored)............................1234-1250

FOLKUNGA
Waldemar......................................1250-1275
Magnus I......................................1275-1290
Birger........................................1290-1319
Magnus II.....................................1319-1363
Eric XII......................................1356-1359
Haakon........................................1362-1363

As you can see all fa,ilies you suggested are from later period and at the end of our mods time-frame. I´ve kings-list for each faction/ region from roughly 7-750 and onwards.

5.Norse has all the info on the Danish and Norwegian factions so feel free to drop him a mail.

PseRamesses
05-02-2004, 02:04
Got some interesting stuff regarding the Lithuanians from Vikinghorde:

The lithuanians were pagans, even in late period. Jogaila accepted christianity in 1386 and christianity then finally came to Lithuania. Grand Duke Gediminas (1236-63) was allso a pagan who became christian, but did not convert the population. It was first when Jogaila became king of poland, that christianity came. You can read something here:

http://www.randburg.com/li/general/general_7.html
http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001....ry.html (http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/lithuania/lithuania_history_early_history.html)
http://www.scantours.com/lithuania_history.htm

PseRamesses
05-02-2004, 15:03
Yesterday, on 1st of May, many nations including Estonia joined EU and they planted one million trees to comemorate this moment. The reporter said that it was an old tradition in Estonia that stretched back to the stone-age where tree-cults where common. It seems all through history the Estonians has had a special relationship to the trees. So, Trax, you we´re not so far from the truth with your tree theory. EC, nice work on thoose shields.

wilpuri
05-02-2004, 16:42
They look great, EC Well done

Highlander X
05-06-2004, 22:21
this mod looks extremely well thought out.
i'm waiting very impatiently for this.

i'm wondering how scotland plays a part in this mod, are the western isles a kingdom of their own? Norweigen controled? or just part of a scottish faction?

goodluck guys. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

PseRamesses
05-06-2004, 22:29
Quote[/b] ]this mod looks extremely well thought out.
i'm waiting very impatiently for this.

Just hope you´re not to impatience since we´re relly more interested in making this mod great rather than just release somthing quick.


Quote[/b] ]i'm wondering how scotland plays a part in this mod, are the western isles a kingdom of their own? Norweigen controled? or just part of a scottish faction?

At the start the factions used in the VI-version of MTW will be used so atleast one Scottish faction with roughly the same amount of provinces. Any comments, ideas, suggestions are more than welcome. Any insight on all thoose Scottish tribes are needed

PseRamesses
05-08-2004, 22:02
Have had tremendous problems with my internet connection since my provider had some serious malfunctions so I hope none of you guys have mailed me during the last 48hrs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

PseRamesses
05-09-2004, 10:54
Quote[/b] ]I finished making those shields (types of: factionname_LGE.BIF, factionname_SML.BIF, factionname_LGE_GREY.BIF), made 25 sets.

Great EC, as always


Quote[/b] ]I haven't made color shields yet tho, cause I'm wondering what colors exactly will those factions be using. I can post a table with all the color sets, especially those similar, so you can see it more clearly and in one place.

Post it so we all can see. For me it really doesn´t matter what colors different factions use. Although there is a subjective value to consider. We are used to see the English in red, the French in deep-blue, Germans in black since it all derives from their respective flags colors. Post the work you have then we can decide which fac should have what color.


Quote[/b] ]I've been thinking a lot about the problem there is with the map, and what I figured out is that it makes no sense to think about it forever. Either (option [1])we extend it more to the east (the yellow rectangle on the map on p. 5) and thus have more eastern regions (and probably also some more factions there), or (option [2])we leave it the way it is on that other Norseman's map (I hope you know which one I mean - the one I've been playing with myself drawing regions).

I´m actually working on two sets at this time. One is like Norse´s original that tilts about 15 degrees to the east. The other is a more upright traditional projectory of the worl as we are more used to see it. I´ve also tried out a version B on the second one that stretches more to the north just to se the differences in province sizes when I play on them. The best alternative for maintaining regions as big as possible is the more upright map. It still needs to be stretched some 25% to meet the size requirements of a playable MapTex map.


Quote[/b] ]A compromise would be to extend it to the east, but not as much as on the map on p. 5 and, at the same time, delete that space between Ireland's western shore and the western end of map, so that the map ends in the west where Ireland ends.

No, we can´t increase the maps width since it will distort the map even more. The yellow marked area on map (p.5) actually has to be REDUCED in width with some 5% to fit the correct MapTex proportions which are w4096 X h3072 for hi-res and w2048 X h1536 for a low-res map.


Quote[/b] ]To me it seems, a compromise is inevitable, whether it will look like I here propose or not.

I agree. That´s the main reason I´m working on several options that we in a couple of weeks time can choose from.

PseRamesses
05-12-2004, 20:54
Hi crew, hope you´re all ok

I´ve accepted an assignment to construct a garden, with flowing water, rock formations and stone-paths. Gonna start monday morning (17/5) and must be finished within 14 days to meet the contract so it means a lot of work... but also a lot of cash, he he

Won´be doing much on the mod during this period except what I can do this weekend so if there´s something you want me to do etc feel free to drop me a line a.s.a.p.

See ya

DeadRunner
05-13-2004, 01:10
when a beta is released i know its a comon question but sorry i want to try this mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif

wilpuri
05-17-2004, 15:43
Are we making any progress? It's been awfully quiet lately..

wilpuri
05-17-2004, 21:53
If you need the names for gens, kings etc, I have all that I could come up with here http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....3;st=50 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=16243;st=50)
They apply to all Finnic factions, perhaps not the Estonians though. Some migh be ok, but you would have to ask trax about that.

wilpuri
05-18-2004, 14:23
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 18 2004,04:12)]
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 17 2004,15:53)]If you need the names for gens, kings etc, I have all that I could come up with here http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....3;st=50 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=16243;st=50)
They apply to all Finnic factions, perhaps not the Estonians though. Some migh be ok, but you would have to ask trax about that.
You misunderstood me wilpuri. I don't need those names, the mod needs them. And if you don't want to make that name list for Finnish factions yourself, don't expect me to do it, as I'm pretty busy with loads of other stuff, not only for this particular mod.
I thought you wanted to help get things going here...

Regards,
EC
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to add more to your already extensive work load. However, I am useless at modding, so may be you could tell me how i make the list? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

PseRamesses
05-19-2004, 11:38
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 18 2004,08:23)]However, I am useless at modding, so may be you could tell me how i make the list? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Wilpuri,
Great to hear from you. How have you been lately? Hope you are fine. Yes, we´ve slowed down a bit due to Norse´s studies which will be finished on June 10th and me accepting a contract to build a garden which must be finished by next friday. I´m just on a luch break right now.

To add to EC´s instructions go into your TW/ Campmap/ Names folder here you´ll find all instructions you´ll need. It starts off like this:


Quote[/b] ]
// This file allows you to edit the names of people who appears in the game
// Anything after a // is ignored and treated as comment
// The following keywords are available, most of the fields are easy enough to work out
// This section will explains some of the finer points of the system

// FAMOUS_KINGS::
// This sets up special kings for a faction, the number list how many kings are listed
// The name number correspond to the name number in the forenames list, counting from 0
// For example, a English king with name number 4 will give you William
// The portrait number correspond to a picture name in its folder, a -1 will give you a random picture
// The vnv entry must match an existing vnv in the game, the see changes.txt and event.txt for the correct text label

// FAMOUS_HEROES::
// This sets up heroes for a faction, the number shows how many entries are to be read in
// The forename and surname must correspond to an entry in names.txt or changes.txt
// Date is the year that this character will start to become available
// Possible types are: GENERAL, SPY, ASSASSIN, EMISSARY, BISHOP, CARDINAL, INQUISITOR,
// GRAND_INQUISITOR, PRIEST, ORTHODOX_BISHOP, MULLAH, ULAMA, and PRINCESS
// Region list the place where the character will appear from, ID_LIMBO means everywhere is possible
// So if you train any assassin as the English after 1190 anywhere in your kingdom, you will get Guy of Gisbourne

// ADD_FORENAMES::
// ADD_SURNAMES::
// ADD_PRINCESS::
// This create a list of names to be used in the game, each entry must appear in names.txt or changes.txt
// You can have as many lists, and as many entries in each list as you want
// The order of creation is important. The first list you create is numbered as 1, the second 2 and so on
// The three types of names lists are ordered separately

// SET_FORENAMES::
// This associate a forenames list with a faction, the first number is the list number
// The second number marks the first n names as royal. While anyone can become king,
// it is those first n names that a king will use to name their new born sons
// If that number is more than the number of forenames, the it will be set to the actual number of names in the list

// SET_SURNAMES::
// Associate a surnames list with a faction

// SET_PRINCESS::
// Associate a princess names list with a faction

// SET_REBELS::
// Rebels don't have kings or princess, the name of a rebel is dependent on where he came from
// The format is region forename surname


Now, this really says it all. Read through it carefully and follow the instructions and you´ll be fine. Use WordPad that comes with Windows to write down the list. Don´t alter your own names text file ;) Start with forenames, surnames and princesses. Kings and heroes are, as you can see, a bit trickier. Write it down like this:


Quote[/b] ]
// 1: english_forenames
ADD_FORENAMES::
Henry
Edward
Richard
John
etc.

// 1: english_surnames
ADD_SURNAMES::
Plantagenet
Howard
Cromwell
Pole
etc.

// 1: english_princesses
ADD_PRINCESS::
Emma
Edith
Adela
Isabella
etc.


And so on. Don´t bother the digit in the beginning of each command line since it´s just that factions order of appearence in the list. As for famous kings and heroes, if you have any for that faction, just write them down with a short description what maked them famous like dread, high command, expert attacker, last defence, high piety etc. Remember that the heroes list can also contain other units that military like priest, bishops, princesses, assasins etc.

BTW guys, mail all your work to Norse or me since all gathered material will be stored in one place rather than having bits and pieces all overthe place. Norse also have a site on the net where some material is placed already and I´m really thinking on making this, or a new one, the storage for our work. This will make it easier for everyone to see, retrive material and work with it. Also, remember to post your work in this thread so that the rest of the community can see this and take a interest in our work. This is how you guys joined the bandwagon, right Got to go back to work so I see you soon

PseRamesses
05-19-2004, 11:51
Hey guys, talk about a timely arrival. Take a look at this tool:

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....t=18073 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=18073)

wilpuri
05-19-2004, 14:34
Ok, So I have now made a txt file of Karelian First names, Surnames and Princesses. Since they also apply to the three other Finnish factions, I have all the Finnish factions covered on that part. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Do I make the kings names just a random combination of different surnames and first names?

PseRamesses
I'm fine, and you?
I will email the txt file to you as soon ASAP.

PseRamesses
05-22-2004, 11:48
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 19 2004,08:34)]Ok, So I have now made a txt file of Karelian First names, Surnames and Princesses. Since they also apply to the three other Finnish factions, I have all the Finnish factions covered on that part.

I will email the txt file to you as soon ASAP.
Wilpurri, I didn´t recive any mail from you? How about the name-files for the Est, Lith etc, are Trax doing thoose?

wilpuri
05-22-2004, 14:09
I sent the email again, I hope it reaches you this time.
If Trax could do the names for the Estonians, that would be great. I can try my luck with the Baltic factions, but any help would be appreciated.

wilpuri
05-23-2004, 00:00
I wrote up some unit descriptions and added pictures to them. I emailed them, but I thought i could share them with everyone else as well, so you can tell me what you think.

Finnish Nobles (or the Kings guard)
The Finnish Nobles wear decent armour, and are medium infantry. They are equipped with large swords and large wooden shields. They have good morale, since they are possibly relatives of the Kuningas, and are in his favour. They followed the kings on their war raids.

Finnish infantry
Lighter than Finnish nobles, but also faster. Armour consisted only of thick furs and leather. Finnish Infantry are armed with swords and large shields, and they are the middle-class of Finnish society (the largest class). They would serve their leader when called upon, and join the war raids in hope of booty. Reasonable morale.

Finnish Tribesmen
Light, fast and equipped with spear and shield, and some of them with swords if they could afford them. Finnish tribesmen are no professionals, and if the battle isn’t going their way, they are easy to rout. Finnish tribesmen were slightly poorer than and part of the lower middle-class of Finnish society. Still, they are free men, and join war raids in the hope of booty, and they defend their lands when attacked. Best used for flanking and attacking skirmishers.

From the dark inland forests, come the hunters of the wild. Since infancy, they have practiced their hunting skills and they excel in stealth and accuracy. They are also responsible for much of the fur trade, and they trade with the middle-men in coastal settlements.
Armed with bows and daggers.

Karelian Kylfings
These mercenaries are armed with swords and large shields. They inhabit the north eastern shores of the Gulf of Finland. They are a reliable medium infantry, and can be trusted to fare well against most other infantry in the heat of battle. The Karelian Kylfings are often associated with the Varangians, since they fought against them and along side them.

Finnish Berserkers
The Finnish Tribes were known for their skills in magic and lore of things unnatural. It was considered bad luck by Vikings to kill a Finn, especially one with magical powers. Many Vikings also went to study and learn from these berserkers, who could work themselves into an unseen frenzy and attack their enemies in a state of fury.
It is hard to control them, and it is wise to simply unleash them.
Small units
Impetuous
Tire quickly

Finnish Horsemen
Finnish horses were rare and expensive, and so was Finnish cavalry. Their small horses and their untrained riders made poor cavalry in relation with their central European contemporaries. They were best used for attacking skirmishers and chasing a routing enemy off the field.

Finnish Naval vessels (I'm pretty sure these would also fit the Estonians, since I remember reading about very similar boat designs across the gulf http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif ):

Small Boat
Before roads were common and forests still covered most of the land, boats were a very efficient form of transport. They could be used to travel along the cost of the Sea or along the lakes and rivers of the inland regions. They could hold a fairly large crew, and made a good, cheap form of a trading navy.

Uisko
A larger and more capable vessel with both sail and oars. Much like the Viking ships in size and shape, and in general, capable vessels. The Uiskos are well suited for the conditions within the Baltic, but a bit too small for travelling across greater seas.

NOTE: These are the Unique units of the Finnish factions. I think archers and spearmen could also be available for finnish factions.

PseRamesses has the pictures as well in the email I sent him.

PseRamesses
05-23-2004, 00:16
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif Re.inforcements have arrived guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

Our illustrious crew has been re-inforced by Vikinghorde, the maker of the XL-mod. Let´s give him a warm welcome guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif


BTW, Wilpurri, I got your unit pics which looks great. I´ve stored them and sent a copy to Norse as for now. We´ll get back to them later to see which fits in Norses re-worked tech-tree. Great work, as usual

Earl of Sandwich
05-23-2004, 01:26
Perhaps I can be of some assistance. As long as you want names, perhaps I can offer up some for frankish/germanic factions. After all, I am working on a Dark Ages mod myself.

wilpuri
05-23-2004, 11:10
Welcome aboard, Vikinghorde
Earl of Sandwich, I think its safe to say that all help is appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

wilpuri
05-23-2004, 16:54
I've completed the namelists for the Baltic factions, and I'm going to start with the Livonian and Estonian namelists soon. They're going to prove a bit trickier, but I sopke with Trax, and he suggested using the ones he already posted, and improvising some from the Finnish names. I think I'll have the namelists for all the factions around the eastern shores of the baltic except novgorod, tomorrow. That would be the Finnish factions, the Baltic factions and the Estonians + Livonians.

A question for Norseman and PseRamesses:
Have you given any thought to which of the Baltic factions will be playable?
For the Finns, I would suggest the Karelians (most important, especially towards the end of the time-frame).
May be a Saaremaa faction could be playable? And of the Baltic Tribes, The Prussians and the Curonians, perhaps?

PseRamesses
05-23-2004, 16:54
Quote[/b] (Earl of Sandwich @ May 22 2004,19:26)]Perhaps I can be of some assistance. As long as you want names, perhaps I can offer up some for frankish/germanic factions. After all, I am working on a Dark Ages mod myself.
That would be great Earl of Sandwich. Just post them in this thread so we can compare with the data we have already. Thanks for the offer.

VikingHorde
05-23-2004, 17:36
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 23 2004,12:10)]Welcome aboard, Vikinghorde
Earl of Sandwich, I think its safe to say that all help is appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Thanks Wilpuri, nice to be here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

If anyone have any problems, feel free to ask. I don't know much about unit making, but I know the basic stuff on modding.

Im going to start looking for some music for the this mod. Right now I got 2-3 mp3's from a free legal mp3 site and it look promissing. I hope to find more during next week.

wilpuri
05-23-2004, 19:42
The namelists for the Livonians and Estonians are finished.
I was forced to use a lot of modern names, but I tried to choose ones that sounded pre-Christian in my ears. I also made up a few last names of my own, but I think they're quite good..

Anyway, I have been thinking about the division into different cultures, i.e. the division of different factions into Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim, Pagan. I think the Baltic factions should all belong to the same culture group. Although the Finnic and Baltic languages are very different, the cultures were (and are, to my knowledge) quite similar. Then one culture group for the vikings, one for the Brits and the Central Europeans, and may be one for the Russian factions?
Has anyone already thought this out, or is it still an open question?

wilpuri
05-23-2004, 21:53
Quote[/b] ]As for the names, I can provide name lists for such {possible} factions as: the Polish, the Pomeranians, the Prussians, the Veletis, the Obodrites, the Russians, the Lithuanians.

Regards,
EC
The Lithuanians are already done, and I was thinking, may be the same names could be used for the Old Prussians, since their languages were related, and I don't think there are too many pure old prussian names that survive to this day. Also, it is har to say how different the languages were a thousand years ago. In the baltic names, I included a few old prussian names I found along the way.

I've started researching and making possible unit descriptions for the Baltic factions, and I will post my ideas here.

wilpuri
05-24-2004, 07:07
EC, I added the Old Prussian names to my baltic namelists.

I've also been busy making some unit descriptions for the various Baltic and Baltic-Finnish factions. What I would really need to know is, which factions will be playable. I've been making some region-specific unit descriptions, but things like the Finnish Infantry are just to give the faction a reliable, basic unit, and it would be silly to give every non-playable fation one of those.

In order to give the playable factions a more complete unit roster, I would like to know which fations are playable. Of course, these are only ideas, and can be used or thrown in the bin.

Here are a few ideas I've come up with:

Curonian Raiders
Around the turn of the millennia, The Finnic and Baltic Tribes were able to control the Baltic Sea, and the Curonians in particular had a reputation of being skilled raiders, much like the Vikings. Armed with swords and shields and leather armour, the Curonian Raiders were capable soldiers, and many times did the Vikings meet their match when facing the Curonians warriors and their fleets. These men formed the elite of any offensive Curonian army.

Baltic Tribesmen
Armed with war cudgels and shields, Baltic Tribesmen form a cheap and fairly useful unit. As a peasant unit, they are not very reliable in the heat of battle, but a good, cheap garrison. Their strength is in numbers and in speed.

Saaremaa Raiders (only available in ”late”)
The People of Saaremaa, alongside the Curonians, were known for their viking-style raids across the Baltic. They were capable warriors and merchants, who raided settlements and captured the inhabitants, which were then sold as slaves. Armed with bows and arrows and Swords and small shields, they were a very useful unit on the battle field.

Livonian Infantry
Light infantry armed with short spears and large shields. The Livonians were on good terms with the Estonian Tribes, and they often fought the Baltic tribes side by side. Reasonable morale.

Estonian Infantry
Lighter than The Kings Guard, but also faster. Armour consisted only of thick furs and leather. Estonian Infantry are armed with swords and large shields, and they are the middle-class of Estonian society (the largest class). They would serve their leader when called upon, and join the war raids in hope of booty. Reasonable morale.

PseRamesses
05-24-2004, 09:31
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 23 2004,13:42)]I think the Baltic factions should all belong to the same culture group. Although the Finnic and Baltic languages are very different, the cultures were (and are, to my knowledge) quite similar. Then one culture group for the vikings, one for the Brits and the Central Europeans, and may be one for the Russian factions?
Has anyone already thought this out, or is it still an open question?
First of all we have one slot free, since there´s obviously not going to be any muslims in this mod. Secondly, personally I´m not too familiar with the extent of christianity or the orthodox beliefs around the time-frame of the mod; 750-1050AD. Anyone else?
This leaves us with christians, vikings and two possible pagan cultures so IMO it would be suitable to use one for the Brittish Isles and one for eastern Europe. Or can more culture-groups be added?

PseRamesses
05-24-2004, 09:44
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 24 2004,01:07)]I've also been busy making some unit descriptions for the various Baltic and Baltic-Finnish factions. What I would really need to know is, which factions will be playable.
I think the last time we discussed factions we ended up with a list looking like this. And since nothing have change to alter this list I think we can go with this one, as for now. The final faction-list will be decided in the end due to overall playablility, stablility of the game when running on AI etc so I think its safe to have maybee one or two factions too much that we will withdraw from the mod in the end.

* 3 Norwegian
* 3 Swedish
* 2 Danish
* 6 English
* 2 Irish (if possible)
* West Franks (French)
* A Dutch Dutchy would be nice to have something more in this area than just the Franks.
* East Franks (Germans)
* 2 additional German tribes
* Polish
* Russians plus a number of petty states more or less under Russian rule at some point.
*Finns
*Estonians
*Lettland/ Livonian/ Lithuanian representation not settled but I belive the info we got on theese are the info in the thread. This adds up to 28 so we only have room for a couple of more facs in the Baltic/ Russian area.

wilpuri
05-24-2004, 13:31
Sounds Good.
I'm not sure If Livonia should really be a faction on its own, but the Curonians became relatively strong, after they expelled their Scandinavian rulers in the 9th or was it 10th century, so I feel they should be one of the Baltic factions. Also, The Prussians could be a faction, since they played an important role historically as a buffer-zone between the Germanic & Slavonic faction and the rest of the Baltic. As for a third Baltic faction, I would suggest Lithuanians/Semogitians or then the Semgallians.

Of course, this is assuming that the Baltic will divided up something like this:
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/11346/e_186b.jpg
1.Prussians
2.Lithuanians
3.Curonians
4.Semgallians
5.Latgals
6.Livonians


From what Trax has told us, it would seem that the People of Saaremaa played an important role in Estonia, so may be they should be the Estonian faction? As for the Finnish Faction, I support either the Häme or the Karelians. Häme was stronger in the early days, but Karelia became stronger later on, thanks to the strong alliance with Novgorod.


EDIT: I've updated some of the unit profiles I've written for different factions surrounding the Baltic Sea. They're only ideas, and may or may not be included in the mod. I've made them on my spare time, due to my new-found motivation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

I've made some new one's and changed many of the old ones. I felt that unit names like Royal/Noble/Kings guard don't fit into the Baltic factions, since there was no nobility/royalty in the society of the Baltic and Finnic Tribes. I also found a good website on some of the weapons that were used by the Baltic-Finns and the Balts, so some of the weapons have been changed as well.

Finnish Units:

Finnish Guard
The Finnish Guard wear decent armour, and are medium infantry. They are equipped with large swords and large wooden shields. They have good morale, since they are possibly relatives of the Kuningas, and are in his favour. They followed their Leaders on their war raids.

Finnish infantry
Lighter than Finnish nobles, but also faster. Armour consisted only of thick furs and leather. Finnish Infantry are armed with swords and large shields, and they are the middle-class of Finnish society (the largest class). They would serve their leader when called upon, and join the war raids in hope of booty. Reasonable morale.

Finnish Tribesmen
Light, fast and equipped with spear and shield, and some of them with swords if they could afford them. Finnish tribesmen are no professionals, and if the battle isn’t going their way, they are easy to rout. Finnish tribesmen were slightly poorer than and part of the lower middle-class of Finnish society. Still, they are free men, and join war raids in the hope of booty, and they defend their lands when attacked. Best used for flanking and attacking skirmishers.

Wilderland Hunters
From the dark inland forests, come the hunters of the wild. Since infancy, they have practiced their hunting skills and they excel in stealth and accuracy. They are also responsible for much of the fur trade, and they trade with the middle-men in coastal settlements.
Armed with bows and daggers.

Karelian Kylfings
These mercenaries are armed with swords and large shields. They inhabit the north eastern shores of the Gulf of Finland. They are a reliable medium infantry, and can be trusted to fare well against most other infantry in the heat of battle. The Karelian Kylfings are often associated with the Varangians, since they fought against them and along side them.

Finnish Berserkers
The Finnish Tribes were known for their skills in magic and lore of things unnatural. It was considered bad luck by Vikings to kill a Finn, especially one with magical powers. Many Vikings also went to study and learn from these berserkers, who could work themselves into an unseen frenzy and attack their enemies in a state of fury.
It is hard to control them, and it is wise to simply unleash them.
Small units
Impetuous
Tire quickly

Baltic Horsemen (For all Balts and Baltic-Finns)
Baltic horses were rare and expensive, and so was Baltic cavalry. Their small horses and their untrained riders made poor cavalry in relation with their central European contemporaries. They were best used for attacking skirmishers and chasing a routing enemy off the field.

Finnish and Estonian naval vessels

Small Boat
Before roads were common and forests covered most of the land, boats were a very efficient form of transport. They could be used to travel along the cost of the Sea or along the lakes and rivers of the inland regions. They could hold a fairly large crew, and made a good, cheap form of a trading navy.

Uisko
A larger and more capable vessel with both sail and oars. Much like the Viking ships in size and shape, and in general, capable vessels. The Uiskos are well suited for the conditions within the Baltic, but a bit too small for travelling across greater seas.

Estonian (and Livonian) Units

Saaremaa Raiders (only available in ”late”)
The People of Saaremaa, alongside the Curonians, were known for their viking-style raids across the Baltic. They were capable warriors and merchants, who raided settlements and captured the inhabitants, which were then sold as slaves. Armed with bows and arrows and Swords and small shields, they were a very useful unit on the battle field.

Estonian Guard
The Estonian Guard wear decent armour, and are medium infantry. They are equipped with large swords and large wooden shields. They have good morale, since they come from the richest part of Estonian society and are possibly relatives of the king. They followed the kings on their war raids.

Estonian Infantry
Lighter than The Kings Guard, but also faster. Armour consisted only of thick furs and leather. Estonian Infantry are armed with swords and large shields, and they are the middle-class of Estonian society (the largest class). They would serve their leader when called upon, and join the war raids in hope of booty. Often formed the main stray of an Estonian army. Reasonable morale.

Livonian Infantry
Light infantry armed with short spears and large shields. The Livonians were on good terms with the Estonian Tribes, and they often fought the Baltic tribes side by side. Reasonable morale. A good addition to any Baltic Army.

Estonian Tribesmen
Light, fast and equipped with spear and shield, and some of them with swords if they could afford them. Estonian tribesmen are no professionals, and if the battle isn’t going their way, they are easy to rout. Estonian tribesmen were slightly poorer than and part of the lower middle-class of Estonian society. Still, they are free men, and join war raids in the hope of booty, and they defend their lands when attacked. Best used for flanking and attacking skirmishers.

Baltic(non- Baltic-Finns) Units

Curonian Raiders
Around the turn of the millennia, The Finnic and Baltic Tribes were able to control the Baltic Sea, and the Curonians in particular had a reputation of being skilled raiders, much like the Vikings. Armed with swords and shields and leather armour, the Curonian Raiders were capable soldiers, and many times did the Vikings meet their match when facing the Curonians warriors and their fleets. These men formed the elite of any offensive Curonian army.

Curonian Guard
The Curonian Guard wear decent armour, and are medium infantry. They are equipped with large Axes and large wooden shields. They have good morale, since they come from the richest part of Estonian society and are possibly relatives of the king. They followed the kings on their war raids

Curonian Infantry
Lighter than The Kings Guard, but also faster. Armour consisted only of thick furs and leather. Curonian Infantry are armed with spears and large shields, and they are the middle-class of Curonian society (the largest class). They would serve their leader when called upon, and join the war raids in hope of booty. Reasonable morale.

Baltic Tribesmen
Armed with mainly war cudgels or axes and shields, Baltic Tribesmen form a cheap and fairly useful unit. As a peasant unit, they are not very reliable in the heat of battle, but a good, cheap garrison. Their strength is in numbers and in speed.

Baltic Infantry
A relatively reliable light infantry unit. Armed with axes and shields, they proved effective against armed opponents, thanks to their speed and their axes. They are the back bone of many Baltic armies.

Curonian Longboat (Available in Curonia and Livonia)
During the Viking colonization of the Curonian shoreline, many of the Viking skills, such as ship building, evolved among the local inhabitants. The Result was the strong Curonian fleet, made up of Curonian Longboats. Almost the equal of the Viking ships, they are the elite of Baltic navies.

Small Boat (for both Baltic-Finnish and Baltic factions)
Before roads were common and forests covered most of the land, boats were a very efficient form of transport. They could be used to travel along the cost of the Sea or along the lakes and rivers of the inland regions. They could hold a fairly large crew, and made a good, cheap form of a trading navy.

I also have an idea for at least one unique building.

Baltic/Baltic-Finnish Buildings
Since historically the Baltic-Finnish tribes and the Baltic tribes have always built hill forts for protection, I thought it might replace the “warrior hold” in VI. The main difference was that hill forts, as the name implies, were always built on hills, preferably steep ones. They were not permanent settlements, but gathering places, starting places for war raids and they were used as places to take refuge in when attacked. These hill forts litter Finland and the Baltic still today. There are nearly 600 surviving hill forts in Latvia and Estonia, a few hundred in Finland, and I’m not sure about Lithuania, but they existed there as well. What I propose is: If a (Baltic/finnish) province has a hill fort building, and it is under siege, whenever the siege is lifted, the besiegers would assault a warrior hold-type fort which is on a hill surrounded by forest.

Hill Fort
As the name suggests, Hill Forts were forts constructed on hills. They were not permanent settlements, but rather places of refuge in times of war, and a rendezvous points for warriors getting ready for raids. Although they varied much in size, a man-high stone wall supported by a wooden stockade usually ran around the perimeter.

So, any Comments/Suggestions/Ideas ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

PseRamesses
05-27-2004, 19:47
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 24 2004,07:31)].
Test

PseRamesses
05-27-2004, 19:57
Sorry for the above post but I´ve been having major problems with IE and other softwares. One prob was that I could´t post here, whenever I tried it IE CtD, but I think the prob is solved (atleast for now). I really like to warn you guys for two dangerous softwares: Internet Optimizer and Adaware - stay miles away from them
You might want to DL and spyassain-software called NoAdaware at http://www.noadaware.com it actually found 137 spy- and adwares on my PC which has Norton Antivirus and the highest securities settings acceptable using Win-98.

wilpuri
05-27-2004, 20:37
I've been making new unit descriptions for the different baltic factions, and I've also changed many of the old ones. This is because I have found a few great sources on the weaponry of the time, and I have tried to make unit descriptions more accurate. I will post them when I'm happy with them.

Earl of Sandwich
05-31-2004, 00:15
Well, as I said, I was going to offer some help with names, and I wasn't yanking your chain. I've compiled a list of Frankish and Old High German names. Where might I send the files?

wilpuri
05-31-2004, 15:09
Quote[/b] (Earl of Sandwich @ May 30 2004,18:15)]Well, as I said, I was going to offer some help with names, and I wasn't yanking your chain. I've compiled a list of Frankish and Old High German names. Where might I send the files?
you can send them to PseRamesses :
pse@brevet.se

alman9898
06-01-2004, 01:05
This sounds like a cool mod. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif I wish I could help but I haven't modded MTW since version 1.1 and wasn't all that great anyway.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

PseRamesses
06-02-2004, 10:35
IMPORTANT NOTICE

Since the problems with viruses and the hi-jacking of an adware that I´ve been experiencing lately I urge you all that would like to get in contact with me to, for the moment, take the following precausions:

1. When you mail me always expetc an answer within 24 hrs. If not mail me again since I haven´t received your first mail.
2 Always scan attached files from me with a virus program since I don´t want anyone of you to go through the hell I´ve been through.

As for now I can´t even open my computer or my documents on the desktop. I can access them though by pressing F8 at start-up to go into safety-mode. I´ve done everything latelty to fight this malase. Spent some 60-70 hrs friday to monday but it seems that I´ve to re-format the PC and re-install everything which will take me two more days and I really don´t have time to do that before the weekend so please bare with me for a week or two on this.


@Earl of Sandwich
I haven´t received the suggested mail from you with the Frankish factions list.

@Alman9898
Anyone can help out with something. Research of different kinds is time consuming but doesn´t require any particular skills. Have you any experince from map-making like battle-maps?

alman9898
06-03-2004, 00:38
No, but I have edited some text files (names, descriptions, unit and build prods, etc.)

PseRamesses
06-09-2004, 09:56
I´m going mad with this hi-jacking thing. Well, in order to have something else to do rather than trying to mend my PC I looked through my notes on England and here are some suggestions of powerhouses (families/ dynasties with capitol letters):


THE INSTITUTION OF THE BRETWALDA
The institution of the Bretwalda was the closest thing that the Anglo-Saxons had to a High King or national leader. Simply put, the Bretwalda was that Anglo-Saxon monarch acknowledged by all the others to be paramount in battle, and most powerful among their number. Here is a list of those rulers identified by their peers as Bretwaldas. The names in pale tint were not specifically named as such, but were clearly the Bretwaldas of their era.
Ælle of Sussex.................................477-c. 500
Ceawlin of Wessex..............................560-591
Æthelbert of Kent..............................591-616
Redwald of East Anglia.........................616-627
Edwin of Deira.................................627-632
St. Oswald of Bernicia.........................633-641
Oswiu of Northumbria...........................641-670
Æthelbald of Mercia.........................c. 735-757
Offa the Mighty, of Mercia.....................757-796
Egbert of Wessex...............................829-839
Æthelwulf of Wessex............................839-855
Æthelbald of Wessex............................855-860
Æthelbert of Wessex............................860-866
Æthelred of Wessex.............................866-871
Alfred the Great, of Wessex....................871-899


CORNWALL
The far southwestern corner of England, beyond Dumnonia (Devonshire), and like the Welsh highlands it was a refuge for Britons fleeing Saxon invasion. Kernow (Cornwall) usually associated with Dumnonia, but there were times of autonomy. After c. 710 there was a line of Kings, names unknown, until...
Doniert (Duncan)............................... ? -875
Ricatus.....................................fl. c. 900
Hoel II........................................fl. 920's
Conan II.......................................fl. 930's
Under increasing pressure from Wessex/England - any coherent Kingship disappeared, and what remained were purely local chiefs; but Cornwall retained an independent tradition until approximately 1050.
To England from c. 950/1050
Cador.....................................fl. c. 1066
Earls of Cornwall
De MORTRAIN
Robert........................................1068-1091
William FitzRobert............................1091-1104


EAST ANGLIA
The Angles were one of the other folk to have occupied Britain, alongside the Saxons and Jutes. Although not the most numerous or influential, their name was ultimately applied to the whole Teuton-British establishment; Anglaland.
Redwald.................................c. 590/600-616/27
Earpwald....................................616/27-627/8?
Sigebert.....................................630/1- ? with...
Egric........................................635 ?- ?
Annah........................................635 ?-654
Æthelhere..........................................654
Æthelwold......................................654-664
Aldwulf........................................664-713
Alfwold........................................713-749
Hunn...........................................749- ? with...
Beorna.........................................749- aft. 758 and...
Albert.........................................749- ?
Æthelred..................................aft. 758- ?
Æthelbert........................................ -794
Eadwald.....................................fl. c. 798
Æthelstan...................................c. 825-c. 840
Æthelward...................................c. 840-c. 855
Edmund.........................................855-870
Under Scandinavian (Danish) rule...............870-879
Oswald....................................870-876
Æthelred..................................876-879
A VIKING KINGDOM
Guthrum Æthelstan..............................879-890
Eric...........................................890-902
Guthrum (II)...................................902-917
To England thereafter...
Earls of East Anglia
Æthelwine.................................962-992
Harold Godwinson (King as H. II 1066)....1044-1066 with...
Gyrth....................................1057-1066


”England”
England emerges throughout the 9th century CE, as the Kingdom of Wessex became the pre-eminent Anglo-Saxon nation and, with the containment of the Scandinavian Kingdom of York by the end of the century, the only surviving English nation. By 925, documents and seals exclusively refer to the Kingdom as England, rather than Wessex. The realm fragments completely from c. 535 onward, being broken up into various Anglo-Saxon and Cymric local states, which see. As stated above, Wessex gains a preemminent position by c. 900, and at roughly that time, the Kingdom of England can be identified...
CERDICINGAS
Egbert.........................................829-839
Æthelwulf......................................839-855
Æthelbald......................................855-860
Æthelbert......................................860-866
Æthelred I.....................................866-871
Alfred the Great...............................871-899
Edward I the Elder.............................899-924
Elfward.............................17 July-1 Aug. 924
Æthelstan......................................924-939
Edmund I the Magnificent.......................939-946
Edred..........................................946-955
Edwyg..........................................955-959
Edgar (I) the Peaceful.........................959-975
Edward II the Martyr...........................975-978
Æthelred II Ill-counsel........................978-1013
SKIOLDUNG
Sven Forkbeard................................1013-1014
CERDICINGAS
Æthelred II Ill-counsel (restored)............1014-1016
Edmund II Ironside.........................Apr-Nov 1016 opposed by...
SKIOLDUNG
Cnut I the Great..........................Apr 1016-1035
Harold I Harefoot.............................1035-1040
Cnut II the Hardy.............................1040-1042
CERDICINGAS
Edward III the Confessor......................1042-1066
Wessex
Harold II Godwinson......................Jan.-Oct. 1066
England
Edgar (II) the Ætheling..................0ct.-Dec. 1066 opposed by...
FitzROBERT
William I the Conqueror..................Oct. 1066-1087
William II the Red............................1087-1100
Henry I Beauclerc.............................1100-1135


KENT
The oldest of the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms. located in the southeastern corner of Britain, across from Calais, in France. The English Archepiscopal Primate is located here, at Canterbury.
HENGISTAS
Hengist.....................................c. 455-c. 488
Oeric.......................................c. 488-512
Octa...........................................512-c. 540
Eormenric...................................c. 540-c. 580
Ethelbert I.................................c. 580-616
Eadbald........................................616-640
Earconbert.....................................640-664
Egbert I.......................................664-673
Hlothere.......................................673-685
Eadric.........................................685-686
To Wessex......................................686-687
Mul (Wessex nominee)...........................686-687
To Essex.......................................687-688
Oswin..........................................688-690
Swaefred (King of Essex 693-c. 707)............689-692
Wihtred........................................692-725
Ethelbert II.......................725-748, c. 754-762 with...
Eadbert I......................................725-c.762 and...
Ealric.........................................725- ?and then...
Eardwulf....................................c. 748-c.754 and also...
Sigered........................................759-763d. 778
Ealmund........................................762-764d. 785
Heabert........................................764-c.771 with...
Egbert II......................................764-c.784
Ealmund (restored).............................784-785
To Mercia......................................785-796
Eadbert II Praen...............................796-798
To Mercia......................................798-823
Baldred........................................823-825
To Wessex thereafter
Æthelwulf (King of Wessex 839-855)........825-839 d. 858
Æthelstan.................................839-852
Æthelwulf (restored)......................855-858
Æthelbert (King of Wessex 860-866)........858-860 d. 866
Sigehelm...............................fl. c. 900
Edwin..................................c. 920-933
Earls of Kent under England:
CERDICINGAS-GODWINSON
Godwin (see also in Wessex)............c.1020-1053
Leofwin Godwinson........................1053-1066
de CONTEVILLE
Odo (Bishop of Bayeaux 1050-1097)........1066-1082


MERCIA
One of the youngest of the Anglo-Saxon monarchies, Mercia nevertheless achieved brilliance in its day, particularly during much of the 8th century, when it was the predominant Kingdom among the English. It was located north of Wessex, in west-central England, athwart the Welsh Marches. Anglian warlords in the region prior to the establishment of the kingdom
PENDINGAS
Creoda (also in Lindsey, same era ?)........c. 585-c. 593
Pybba.......................................c. 593-c. 606
Ceorl.......................................c. 606-c. 626
Penda.......................................c. 626-655
To Bernicia....................................655-658
Wulfhere.......................................658-675
Ethelred I.....................................675-704
Coenred........................................704-709
Coelred........................................709-716
Ethelbald......................................716-757
Beornred...........................................757
Offa the Mighty................................757-796
Ecgfrith...........................................796
Coenwulf.......................................796-821
Ceolwulf I.....................................821-823
Beornwulf......................................823-826
Ludecan........................................826-827
Wiglaf.........................................827-829
To Wessex......................................829-830
Wiglaf (restored)..............................830-840
Beorhtwulf.....................................840-852
Burgred........................................852-874
Ceolwulf II....................................874-883
To Wessex thereafter...
Ethelred II...............................883-911
Ethelflaeda (fem.).........................911-918
Elfwynna (fem.)............................918-919 d. ?
EARLDOM of MERCIA
LEOFRICSON
Leofric I ?
Leofric II..............................late 900's-1001
Edulf.........................................1001- ?
Leofwine....................................... ? -1028
Leofric III the Great.........................1028-1057
Leofric III's wife was Godgifu (Godiva), famous for her controversial (and historically problematic) naked ride through the streets of Coventry, to protest high taxes.
Alfgar III....................................1057-1059
Edwin.........................................1059-1066
Estmond...................................c.1070's-1100
Mercia broken up into smaller, less autonomous estates after the 11th century...


NORTHUMBRIA
A large Anglo-Saxon Kingdom covering almost all of the thinly populated north country. Northumbria arose out of the amalgamation of two precursor states, Bernicia and Deira. It was further enhanced by the conquest of Rheged, adjacent to the Irish Sea, in the early 7th century. Ultimately though, it could not contain the onslaught of the Norse raiders in the 8th and 9th centuries, and it was eventually replaced by a Viking Kingdom at York.
Ecgfrith.......................................671-685
Aldfrith.......................................685-704
Eadwulf........................................704-705
Osred I........................................705-716
Coenred........................................716-718
Osric..........................................718-729
Ceolwulf.......................................729-764 with...
Eadbert........................................737-758 and...
Oswulf.........................................757-759 and then...
Ethelwald Moll.................................759-765
Alcred.........................................765-774
Ethelred I.....................................774-779
Alfwald I......................................779-788
Osred II.......................................788-789
Ethelred I (restored)..........................789-796
Osbald.............................................796
Eardwulf.......................................796-806
Elfwald II.....................................806-808
Eardwulf (restored)................................808
Eanred.........................................808-840
Ethelred II....................................840-844
Redwulf............................................844
Ethelred II (restored).........................844-849 with...
Osbert.....................................848/850-867
Aelle..............................................867
Egbert I.......................................867-872
Ricsige........................................873-876
Egbert II......................................876-878
Northumbria destroyed. King Egbert is sacrificed to Odin by Halfdan. Viking Kingdom of York takes its place. JORVIK, a Scandinavian Kingdom which replaced Northumbria in the late 8th century, and led a ramshackle existence for another eighty years or so.
Halfdan I......................................875-883
Guthfridh I....................................883-894 with...
Sigfridh.......................................883- ?
Cnut.....................................fl. early 10th cent.
Ethelwald................................fl. early 10th cent.
Halfdan II..................................c. 902-910 with...
Eowils......................................c. 902-910 and...
Ivar........................................c. 902-910 ?
Ragnald I....................................912/9-921
Sihtric the Blind..............................921-927
Guthfridh II.......................................927
To England.....................................927-939
Olav I.........................................939-941
Olav II........................................941-943 d. 952
Ragnald II.....................................943-944
Olav II (restored).................................944 d. 952
To England.....................................944-948
Eric Bloodaxe..................................948-949 d. 954
Olav II (re-restored)..........................949-952
Eric Bloodaxe (restored).......................952-954
To England thereafter...
EARLDOM of NORTHUMBRIA The Anglo-Saxon Earldom which replaced the Viking kingdom of Jorvik was one of the most powerful in England and was virtually independent for much of the 900's and 1000's.
Oswulf.........................................954- ?
Oslac
EALDULFSON
Ealdulf I (in Bernicia)........................fl. late 900's
Uhtred (in Bernicia from 990's)...............1006-1016
Ealdulf II Cudel (at Bamburgh)................1016-1019 with...
A NORSE DYNASTY
Eric Hathir (at York).........................1016-1031 with...
EALDULFSON
Ealdred (at Bamburgh).........................1031-1038 opposed by...
Carl Hold (at York)...........................1031-1039 opposed by...
A DANISH DYNASTY (SIWARDSON ?)
Siward........................................1031-1055
Siward, Earl of all Northumbria and in actual control over region from 1039, is best remembered as the earl whose army was instrumental in the downfall of Macbeth.
CERDICINGAS-GODWINSON
Tostig Godwinson..............................1055-1065
LEOFRICSON
Morcar Alfgarson..............................1065-1066
Morcar was the son of Earl Alfgar of Mercia. He overthrew Tostig with the support of Tostig’s brother, Earl Harold of Wessex (later King Harold of Hastings fame). Tostig fled to the court of Harald Hardradi of Norway, and participated in the latter’s invasion of England in 1066. He attempted a reconciliation with Harold but when he asked what compensation the King of Norway could expect, his brother responded “seven feet of English soil, or as much more as he is taller than other men.”
COMINE
Robert.............................................1066
Robert Comine was appointed by William the Conqueror, but he was ambushed and killed by forces under the command of the Anglo-Saxon Bishop of Durham (see Durham)
SIWARDSON ?
Waltheof......................................1066-1075
In the span of nine years Waltheof managed to lead two rebellions against William the Conqueror, who had him beheaded.
DURHAM
Walcher (Also Prince-Bishop of Durham)........1075-1080
Aubrey.............................................1080
De MOWBRAY
Robert........................................1080-1095
Vacant for a time. Northumbria began to become broken up; much of the south going to the Prince-Bishops Palatine of Durham, while the north was divided up among a myriad of feudal baronies and lordships, the most important being the earldom of Northumberland and the earldom (later Duchy) of York.


SUSSEX
The Kingdom of the South Saxons, the coastal region between Kent and Portsmouth.
Æthelwalh................................. c. 661-685
Berthun........................................685-686 with...
Andhun.........................................685-686?
To Wessex......................................686-c.722
Nothelm (in West Sussex)................... c. 692-c.725 with...
Watt (in East Sussex)......................fl. 692- ?
Æthelstan..................................fl. 714-722
Ealdbert.......................................722-725
Æthelbert...........................fl. period 725-750
To Mercia...................................c. 750-c.812
Osmund (in West Sussex)................c. 758-c. 772
Oswald (in West Sussex)...................fl. 772 with...
Oslac (in West Sussex)....................fl. 772
Aldwulf (in East, then all Sussex)........ c. 765-791 with...
Aelhwald.................................. c. 772-?
To Wessex...................................c. 812-919
Ethelwulf (Wessex 839-55, Kent 855-8).....855-858
To England thereafter...
Earls of Arundel
de MONTGOMERY
Roger.................................c. 1070- ?
Robert the Traitor........................ ? -1102


WESSEX
Located between the Isle of Wight and the Severn, the Kingdom of the West Saxons was one of the more stable Saxon monarchies during the Dark Ages. Its founder, Cerdic, was in all probability of at least partial Cymric parentage, since the term Cerdic means nothing in Anglo-Saxon, but appears to be a Saxon attempt at pronouncing the fairly common Cymric name of Caradoc. Guinntguic, a possible British Kingdom or Sub-Kingdom around Winchester.
CERDICINGAS
Cerdic......................................c. 519-534
Cynric.........................................534-560
Ceawlin........................................560-591 with...
Cutha (Sub-King of the Gewisse)..........fl. 570's-580's
Ceol...........................................591-594
Ceolwulf.......................................594-611
Cynegils.......................................611-643 with...
Cwichelm....................................c. 614-c. 636/41
Cenwalh........................................643-645
Cuthred I......................................645-648
Cenwalh (restored).............................648-672
Saexburh (fem.)................................672-674
Æscwine........................................674-676
Centwine.......................................676-685
Caedwalla......................................685-688
Ine............................................688-726
Ethelheard.....................................726-740
Cuthred II.....................................740-756
Sigebert.......................................756-757
Cynewulf.......................................757-786
PENDINGAS
Beorhtric......................................786-802
CERDICINGAS
Egbert.........................................802-839
With King Egbert's victory over Mercia in 825, he could assume overlordship of all the Saxons. Although challenged, this supremacy never abated, and with it the beginnings of England as a nation commence. What follows are the Ealdormen of the West Country, and later Earls of Wessex. These derive from a line of the English Royal clan of Cerdic - they are, in fact, descended from an elder brother of King Alfred, whose heir was ignored during the tumultuous close of the 9th century. Even so, this branch of the family remained long enough to haunt the Royal Cerdics, and return, albeit briefly, to the throne of their ancestors...
Ealdormen of the West (Wessex and Dumnonia)
Æthelwold..................................d. 902
Ethelwold was a son of King Ethelred I (866-871). He was succeeded in the West Country by his nephew, Ethelfrith.
Æthelfrith................................fl. 10th cent.
Æthelward the Chronicler...................d. c. 998
Æthelmar...................................c. 998-1016
Wessex to England directly....................1016-1018
Earls of Wessex
Godwin........................................1018-1053
Harold........................................1053-1066
Harold is, of course, the Harold Godwinson who was Earl of East Anglia 1044-1066, and succeeded in becoming King Edward III's appointed heir, to rule as Harold II in 1066 - defeating a Norwegian challenge only to be defeated in turn by William of Normandy. The West Country fragmented into localized Norman estates...


THE ARCHBISHOPS OF CANTEBURY
The Archbishops of Canterbury are the Primates of England, and as such deserve mention in these files. The see was established in the Dark Ages within the Kingdom of Kent, and although it has never held a fully autonomous territory (yet note, it was independent enough to mint its own coinage circa 765-914), it has nevertheless exerted an enormous influence on English history and culture.
St. Augustine..................................597-605
Laurentius.....................................605-619
Mellitus.......................................619-624
Justus.........................................624-627
Honorius.......................................627-653
vacant.........................................653-655
Deusdedit......................................655-664
vacant.........................................664-668
Theodore of Tarsus.............................668-690
Berhtwald......................................693-731
Taetwine.......................................731-734
Nothelm........................................734-740
Cuthbert.......................................740-758
Breogwine......................................759-762
Jaenberht......................................763-790
Æthelheard.....................................790-803
Wulfred........................................803-829
Fleogild.......................................829-830
Ceolnoth.......................................830-870
Æthelred.......................................870-889
vacant.........................................889-891
Plegemund......................................891-923
Æthelm.........................................923-925
vacant.........................................925-928
Wulfhelm.......................................928-941
Odo............................................941-958
Ælsine.........................................958-959
St. Dunstan....................................959-988
Æthelgar.......................................988-989
Sigeric........................................990-994
Ælfric.........................................995-1005
Alphege.......................................1006-1012
Lyfing........................................1013-1020
Æthelnoth.....................................1020-1038
Eadsige.......................................1038-1050
Robert I of Jumièges..........................1051-1052
Stigand.......................................1052-1070
Lanfranc......................................1070-1089
vacant........................................1089-1093
St. Anselm....................................1093-1103


ARCHBISHOPS OF YORK
York was the second Archbishopric in England and at times surpassed even the Archbishops of Canterbury in importance (particularly when the latter proved too loyal to Rome for the reigning king's liking). While they did not control York itself, the Archbishops owned huge tracts of land throughout the country and like other high-ranking clergy of the day were counted among the feudal nobility.
Paulinus.......................................627-633
Chad (Ceadda)..................................644-669
St. Wilfrid....................................669-677
(Some sources have Wilfrid for a second term; 695-705)
Bosa...........................................678-705
St. John of Beverley...........................705- ?
Wilfrid II.....................................718-732
Egbert.........................................735-766
Ethelbert......................................767-780
Eanbald I......................................780-796
Eanbald II.....................................796-808
Wulfsige.......................................808-837
Wigmund........................................837-854
Wulfhere.......................................854-900
Ethelbald......................................900- ?
Hrotheweard (or Lodeward)......................904-931
Wulfstan I.....................................931-956
Oskytel........................................958-971
Edwald (or Ethelwold)..............................971
Oswald.........................................972-992
Ealdulf (Abbot of Peterborough)................992-1002
Wulfstan II...................................1003-1023
Aelfric Puttoc................................1023-1051
Cynesige......................................1051-1060
Ealdred.......................................1061-1069
Thomas I......................................1070-1100

PseRamesses
06-09-2004, 10:19
WALES
The west coast of the Isle of Britain between the Rivers Mersey and Severn. The Welsh (or Cymri, to give their own name for themselves) are the descendents of the Romano-Britons who were gradually pushed westward by the Anglo-Saxons at the close of the Classical era. Independent until the end of the 13th century, they have retained their national identity, and continue to exert a substantial influence on the British character.

ANGLESEY (Ynys Mons)
An Island off the coast of northwestern Wales, called Ynys Mons or Mona by the ancient Britons. Anglesey is said to have been the last refuge of the druids from the Romans in Britain. Penmynydd, at the center of the island, was the home of Owen Tudor, founder of the house of Tudor.
To the Roman Empire.............................78-395
To the Western Roman Empire....................395-410
To Britain.....................................410-c.450
To Venedotia (Gwynedd)........................from c.450
Kingdom of Ysfeilion- a subkingdom of Gwynedd, founded by a son of Cunedda.
ap EDERN
Ysfahel Gwron ap Cunedda................460's-c.500
Much of the island to Leinster.....................c. 500
Meilir ap Yfahel.......................c. 500-530
Meilir was part of a campaign by Cadwallon of Gwynedd to expell the Irish invaders from northern Wales.
Cynyr ap Meilir...............................6th cent.
? (possibly to Gwynedd directly)
To Deira.......................................620-627
? (possibly to Gwynedd directly)
Hywel ap Cadwallader..........................late 600's
?? (probably to Gwynedd directly)
COEL
Cynan ap Rhodri...........................mid-late 800's
? (possibly to Gwynedd directly)
Ingimund.......................................902-905
Probably to Gwynedd............................905-915
To Dublin..........................................915
Probably to Gwynedd............................915-942
To Deheubarth..................................942-950
To Gwynedd.....................................950-971
Magnus Haraldsson (King of Man 972-977)............971
Godfred Haraldsson (brother of Magnus).............972
To Gwynedd.....................................972-986
To Deheubarth..................................986-999
To Gwynedd.....................................999-1088
To England....................................1088-1094
? (probably to Gwynedd directly)
Bran ap Dinwal................................mid 1100's
To Gwynedd directly.....................12th cent.-1277
To England thereafter...

BRYCHEINIOG
A minor state in southern Wales, the highlands around modern Brecon.
ui ANLACH
Brychan........................................fl. 520's
Rhun Redeye....................................fl. 550's
Augustus I.....................................fl. 580's
Gap in sequence; to Dyfed ?
Augustus II....................................fl. 750's
Elwystl........................................fl. 770's with...
Dal DEISI
Theodore I.....................................fl. 770's
Gap in sequence; to Dyfed ?
Theodore II....................................fl. 870's
Elis...........................................fl. 890's
Theodore III...................................fl. 925
To Dyfed thereafter...


EDERN
Probably a sub-Kingdom within the sphere of Gwynedd
Ceredig...................................fl. 470's
Iusay.....................................fl. 500's
Serguil...................................fl. 530's
Elffin....................................fl. 540's
Bodgu.....................................fl. 560's
Artbodgu..................................fl. 600's
Arthur....................................fl. 640's
Gap in sequence
Clydog I..................................fl. 730's
Kingdom of Seisyllwg This area began exerting full autonomy from the last half of the 8th century on, and over time became known by a name referring to the ruler who began the move toward independence; Seisyllwg (Cecil's Land). Nevertheless, it should be noted that the name of Ceredigion was not forgotten, and was being used in a familiar way to at least the 1st quarter of the 9th century.
Cecil..........................................fl. 770's
Arthgen........................................ ? -807
Dyfnwallon.....................................807- ?
Meurig.........................................fl. 850's
Gwgon.......................................... ? -871
To Gwynedd.....................................871-876
Ubbe Ragnarsson (son of Ragnar Lodbrok)............876
To Gwynedd.....................................876-878
Cadell.........................................878-909
Clydog II......................................909-920
Kingdom of Deheubarth Deheubarth proper dates from the partition of 909, when Clydog received Seisyllwg and his younger brother Howell was granted Dyfed. When Clydog died in 920, Howell combined both into a greater state, Deheubarth. At the time, that encompassed all of south-central and southwest Wales.
To Dyfed.......................................920-954
Owen...........................................954-986
Meredith I.....................................986-999
To Gwynedd.....................................999-1005
Edwin.........................................1005-1018 with...
Cadel II......................................1005-1018
To Gwynedd....................................1018-1023
To Morgannwyg.................................1023-1033
Meredith II...................................1033-1035 with...
Howel II......................................1033-1044
To Gwynedd....................................1044-1047
MERIADOC
Griffith I....................................1047-1055
To Gwynedd....................................1055-1063
Meredith III..................................1063-1072
Rhys I........................................1072-1078
Rhys II.......................................1078-1093
To England....................................1093-1155


EDERN
Dunant.................................fl. c. 470's
Ebiau I................................fl. c. 500's
Dinacat................................fl. c. 530's
Meurig.................................fl. c. 560's
Ebiau II...............................fl. c. 580's
Isaac..................................fl. c. 600's
Podgen.................................fl. c. 620's
Poddelgu...............................fl. c. 640's
Ebiau III..............................fl. c. 660's
Brochmael..............................fl. c. 690's
Eiciaun................................fl. c. 710's
Jouanaul...............................fl. c. 740's
Ceredig................................fl. c. 760's
Bleidudd...............................fl. c. 790's
Cuhelin................................fl. c. 840's


DYFED
The Pembroke Peninsula in southwestern Wales.
Kingdom of Demetia
Dal DEISI
Eochaid........................................fl. 410
Corath.........................................fl. 420's
Aedh...........................................fl. 450's
Tryffin I......................................fl. 480's
Aergul Longhand................................fl. 500
Gwerthefyr......................................c. 515-c. 544
Cyngar.........................................fl. 550's
Peter..........................................fl. 570's
Arthur.........................................fl. 590's
Nowy...........................................fl. 610's
Gwydion........................................fl. 640's
Cathen.........................................fl. 670's
Cadogan........................................fl. 700's
Rhain I........................................fl. 730's
Much reduced from conquest by Ceredigion.
Kingdom of Rheinwg
Twdys..........................................fl. 770's
Meredith....................................... ? -796
Rhain II.......................................796-808
Owen...........................................808-811
Tryffin II.....................................811-814
Disruption in sequence; possible Viking incursion ?
Kingdom of Dyfed
Hyfaidd.....................................c. 880-893
Llwyrch........................................893-904
Rhodri.........................................904-905
Howel the Good.................................905-950
Rhodri.........................................950-953 with...
Edwin..........................................950-954 and...
Owen...........................................950-986
To Deheubarth..................................986-1093
To England thereafter...


MERIADOC
Rhys...........................................745- ?
Arthfael.......................................fl. c.800
To Gwent...........................................c. 825/30
Rhys...........................................fl. c.830's
Howel.......................................c. 840-c.885
Owen........................................c. 885-c.930 with...
Griffith (in Gower)............................928-934 and...
Cadogan........................................930-950
To Morgannwyg..................................950-974
Owen...........................................974- ?
To Morgannwyg.............................c. 990's-1055
To Gwynedd....................................1055-1063
To Morgannwyg thereafter...


GWENT
In extreme southeastern Wales; the north shore of the Severn Estuary between Newport and the Wye River, together with the interior districts north of that coast.
EDERN
Erb............................................fl. 420's
Nynniaw........................................fl. 450's
Teithfallt.....................................fl. 480's
YNYR
Honorius.......................................fl. 510's
Iddon..........................................fl. 540's
MERIADOC
Theodoric (also in Brittany)...................fl. 550's Abdic., K. battle 584
Meurig I....................................c. 580-c.615
Arthur I....................................c. 615-c.630
Morgan the Generous.........................c. 630-c.665
??
Ithael I....................................c. 715-c.745
Ffernfael I....................................745-775
Arthur II......................................775- ?
Ithael II...................................... ? -848 with... ?
Meurig II......................................fl. 830's
Ffernfael II...................................fl. 880's with...
Brochwel.......................................fl. 880's
Arthfael I.....................................fl. 920's
Cadel........................................930's-942
To Morgannwyg..................................942-c.950
Noe............................................fl. 955
Arthfael II..............................fl. 970's-c.983
Rhodhri........................................983-c.1015
Griffith.......................................983-c.1015
Edwin.........................................1015-1045
Meurig II.....................................1045-1055
To Gwynedd....................................1055-1063
Caradoc.......................................1063-1081
To Morgannwg..................................1081-1091
To England thereafter...


GWYNEDD
The northernmost of the Welsh Principalities, and certainly the most powerful and influential. The origins of this state were in the breakup of Brittannia at the end of the Classic Age. At that time, the region around Deganwy, in the center of what in pre-Roman times was the Ordovician tribal territory, emerged as a stronghold, attracting settlers and regfugees from many parts of Britain. Called at first VENEDOTIA, the name gradually shifted to Gwynedd.
EDERN
Cunedda...................................c. 450's-c.460's
Einion....................................c. 470's-c.480's
Cadwallon I Longhand........................c. 500-c.534
Maelgwyn I the Tall.........................c. 534-c.549
Rhun the Tall...............................c. 549-c.580's
Cangan
Cadwal
Idgwyn
Beli......................................c. 580's-c.599
Iago........................................c. 599-c.615
Cadfan......................................c. 615-c.620
To Deira.......................................620-627
Cadwallon II...................................627-634
CADFAEL
Cadfael Battle-Shirker.........................634-c.655
EDERN
Cadwalladr the Blessed......................c. 655-c.682
Idwal I Roebuck.............................c. 682-720
Rhodri I.......................................720-c.754
Caradoc.....................................c. 754-c.798
Conan.......................................c. 798-816
Howel I........................................814-825
COEL
Mervyn the Freckled............................825-844
Rhodri II the Great............................844-878
Anarawd........................................878-916
Idwal II the Bald..............................916-942
To Deheubarth..................................942-950
Iago I.........................................950-979 with...
Ieuaf..........................................950-969 and...
Howel II.......................................974-985
Cadwallon II...................................985-986
To Deheubarth..................................986-999
Conan II.......................................999-1005
CECIL
Llewelyn I....................................1005-1023
Iago III......................................1023-1039
Griffith......................................1039-1063
CYNFYN
Bleddyn.......................................1063-1075 with...
Rhiwallon.....................................1063-1070
CARADOC
Traheaern..........................................1075
COEL
Griffith I.........................................1075
CARADOC
Trahaearn (restored)..........................1075-1081
COEL
Griffith I (restored).........................1081-1088
To England....................................1088-1094


MORGANNWG Southern Wales; the north coast of the Severn Estuary from Swansea to Newport. The name evolved into Glamorganshire. This state came into being as a result of the merger of Glywysing with Gwent.
MERIADOC
Morgan II the Old..............................930-974
Owen II........................................974- ?
Rhys II........................................fl. 990's with...
Jestyn I.....................................990's-c.1015 and...
Howel II.....................................990's-c.1043 and...
Rhydderch..................................c. 1015-1033
Cadogan.......................................... -1055
To Gwynedd....................................1055-1063
Cadogan (restored)............................1063-c.1073
Caradog....................................c. 1073-1081
Jestyn II.....................................1081-c.1093
To England thereafter...


NORTH POWYS The interior of northeastern Wales.
VORTIGERN
Beli...........................................fl. 630's
Gwylog.........................................fl. 700's
Elisedd.....................................c. 725- ?
Brochfael......................................fl. 760's
Cadell......................................... ? -808
Cyngen......................................c. 808-c.853
To Gwynedd.....................................853-942
To Deheubarth..................................942-950
To Gwynedd.....................................950-1039
To Deheubarth.................................1039-1063
To Gwynedd....................................1063-1075
Within independent Powys......................1075-1160


POWYS
East-central Wales; southern Denbigh and northern Montgomery, roughly.
VORTIGERN
Cadel I (Catellus).............................fl. c.450
Partitioned between several sons of Cadell, and several sons of Cunedda of Gwynedd. Precise info is lacking.
Cuneglasus (Cyngen I).......................c. 520-c. 550
Brochfael I of the Tusks....................c. 550-c. 580
Conan the Cruel.............................c. 580-c. 598
Selyf.......................................c. 598-615
Eiludd.........................................615- ?
Partitioned into North and South Powys....c. 620's-c. 853
To Gwynedd.....................................853-942
To Deheubarth..................................942-950
To Gwynedd.....................................950-1039
To Deheubarth.................................1039-1063
To Gwynedd....................................1063-1075
CYNFYN
Madoc I.......................................1075-1088 with...
Rhirid........................................1075-1088 and...
Cadogan.......................................1075-1109 with... d. 1111
Iorwerth......................................1088-1103 and... d. 1111
Meredith I....................................1088-1103
Madoc II ap Rhirid............................1109-1110 with... d. 1114
Ithel ap Rhirid...............................1109-1124


RHOSA
petty Kingdom located in western Gwynedd.
To Ceredigion to c.480
Owain Ddantgwyn (White-Tooth)................c.480-517
Owain was murdered by his kinsmen, King Maelgwyn of Gwynedd. It has been suggested by some that Owain forms the basis for the King Arthur of legend; however, this is not a widely accepted view.
Cynglas Goch (the Red).........................517-c.540
Einion......................................c. 540-mid 500's
King of Lleyn. Allowed to absorb Afflogion. One of Cynglas' descendants, Caradog ap Meirchion, becomes king of Gwynedd in the 8th century.
Rhos loses any autonomy as Gwynedd draws the kingdom under its direct control c. 560.
RHUFONIOG A district within eastern Gwynedd ruled by one of Cunedda's sons. It is likely that this was more of a local patrimony than an organized sub-kingdom.
Within Gwynedd...
Rhufon ap Cunedda.........................fl. c. 445
Mor I.....................................fl. c. 465
Aidan.....................................fl. c. 495
Moreith...................................fl. c. 520
Mor II....................................fl. c. 540
To Gwynedd directly from c. 540's

ST. DAVIDS
An important bishopric in southwestern Wales, located on the Pembroke Peninsula. During the Middle Ages the Bishops were powerful feudal magnates who held much of Pembrokeshire as a secular lordship in a manner not at all dissimilar to that of the Prince-bishoprics within the Holy Roman Empire.
St. David I....................................fl. c. 601
Cynog..........................................fl. c. 606
The following names appear in some sources, but not in others.
Teilo
Ceneu
Morfael
Haerwnan
Elwaed
Gwrnwen
Llunwerth I
Gwrgwyst
Gwgan
Clydawg
Einion
Elford
Ethelman
Elanc
Maelsgwyd
Sadyrnfyw......................................831- ?
Meurig
The following bishops noted with blue question-marks are attested to in some sources, but not mentioned in others.
Cadell ?
Sulhaithnay ?
Novis.......................................c. 840- ?
Idwal
Asser ?
Arthwael ?
Samson ?
Ruelin ?
Rhydderch ?....................................fl. c. 850
Elwin ?
Morbiw ?
Llunwerth II...................................fl. c. 900
Eneuris........................................944- ?
Morgeneu I..................................c. 999-1023
Moregenau II.......................................1023
Ervin.........................................1023-1039
Trahaearn.....................................1039-1061
Joseph.............................................1061
Bleiddud......................................1061-1071
Sulien I......................................1072-1078
Abraham.......................................1078-1080
Sulien II.....................................1080-1085
Wilfrid.......................................1085-1115

SOUTH POWYS
The mountainous interior of central Wales.
VORTIGERN
Cyndrwyn the Stubborn..........................fl. 620's
Cynddylan...................................c. 640-c.655
To Powys....................................c. 655-853
To Gwynedd.....................................853-942
To Deheubarth..................................942-950
To Gwynedd.....................................950-1039
To Deheubarth.................................1039-1063
To Gwynedd....................................1063-1075
Within independent Powys......................1075-1160

PseRamesses
06-09-2004, 10:25
ISLE OF MAN

This smallish island, located in the Irish Sea halfway between Britain and Ireland, has been the recipient of a number of diverse cultural and political threads which have blended to create a unique composite of all the British Isles peoples.
COEL
Mannanan.......................................fl. c.500's
Llywarch the Old (in South Rheged 570-575)..c. 560-c.582 ? d. c. 595
To Ulster ?..................................early 580's ?
To Dal Riada (The Scots)........................582- ?
Diwg.........................................fl. c.600's
To Northumbria..................................620-633
Gwyar........................................fl. c.630's
Teigid.......................................fl. c.670's
Algwyn.......................................fl. c.700's
Sandde.......................................fl. c.730's
Elidyr.......................................fl. c.760's
Gwriad.......................................fl. c.800's
Mervyn the Freckled (Gwynedd 825-844)........ 825-c.836
VIKING KINGDOM
Godred MacFergus..........................fl. c.836-853
Ketil Flatnose..............................c.853-c.866
Tryggvi.......................................fl. c.870
Asbjorn Skerjablesi............................d. c.899
To Dublin.....................................c.900-902
To York.......................................902-c.942
Gebeachan..................................... ? -c.937
Macragnall I.............................c. 937? -c.942
To Dublin..................................c. 942-c.972
Magnus MacHarald............................ c. 972-977
Guthred I......................................,977-989
To Orkney....................................989-c.1000
Ragnald......................................fl. c.1000
Kenneth......................................fl. c.1005
To Orkney..................................c. 1005-1014
Sven........................................... d. 1034
To Dublin...................................... ? -1038
To Orkney..................................c. 1038-1065
Margad MacRagnald...........................1052-c.1061
Murchaid MacDiarmit...........................1061-1070
Fingal........................................1070-1079
CROVAN
Godred I......................................1079-1095
Lagman........................................1095-1096
Olav I.............................................1096
Donald........................................1096-1098
To Orkney.....................................1098-1103
Olav II the Red...............................1103-1153
Godred II the Black...........................1153-1158

PseRamesses
06-09-2004, 10:49
IRELAND
The other large island in the British Isles. Situated as it is in a position of relative isolation, Ireland has gathered unto itself over the centuries a number of survivals in culture and history not found elsewhere. This gifted folk, by times genial and turbulent, have had a widespread impact on Europe and the world all out of proportion to their numbers.

AILEACH (Tyrone) In west-central Ulster.
Ui NIALL (O´Neil)
Fergal I (High King)...........................681-722
Aedh II the Handsome (High King)...............722-743
Niall I of the Showers (High King).............743-778
Máel III Dúin..................................778-788
Aedh III the Dignified (High King).............788-819
Murchad I......................................819-823
Niall II Caille (High King)....................823-846
Máel IV Dúin...................................846-867
Aedh IV the White-Grey (High King).............867-879
Murchad II.....................................879-887
Flaugherty I...................................887-896
Donal II.......................................896-915
Niall III Black-Knee (High King)...............915-919
Flaugherty II......................................919
Fergal II......................................919-938
Murcherty I....................................938-943
Donal III (High King)..........................943-956
Flaugherty III.................................956-962
Tadg...............................................962
Conn...............................................962
Murchad III Glún...............................962-972
Donal III (High King) (restored)...............972-980
Fergal III.....................................980-989
Aedh V.........................................989-1004
Flaugherty V..................................1004- ?
Aedh VI
Flaugherty V (restored)........................ ? -1036
Niall IV......................................1036-1061
Ardgar........................................1061-1064
Aedh VII......................................1064-1067
Donal IV......................................1067-1068
Aedh VIII.....................................1068- ?
Conchobar I.................................... ? -1078
Aedh VIII (restored)..........................1078-1083
Donnchad...........................................1083
Donal V (High King)...........................1083-1121


ARMAGH
The Archbishops of Armagh are the Primates of the Irish Church. Of course, being Irish, it isn't quite as simple as that. The See of Armagh was founded by Saint Patrick, and has been the center of the Irish ecclesiastic establishment since that time.
Flann-Febla....................................688-715
Suibhne........................................715-730
Congus.........................................730-750
Cele-Peter.....................................750-758
Ferdachry......................................758-768
Cu-dinisc......................................768-778
Dubhdalethe I..................................778-793
Faindelach.........................................793
Airechtach.........................................793
Faindelach (restored)..........................793-795
Connmach.......................................795-807
Torbach........................................807-808
Nuada..........................................808-812
Flanngus.......................................812-823
Artri..........................................823-833
Eoghan.........................................833-834
Forannan.......................................834-852 opposed by...
Dermot O'Tighernan.............................834-852
Fethgna........................................852-874
Maelcobha......................................874-877
Ainmeri........................................877-879
Cathasach I....................................879-883
Maelcobha (restored)...........................883-888
Maelbrighte....................................888-927
Joseph.........................................927-936
Mael-Patrick.......................................936
Cathasach II...................................936-957
Muiredach......................................957-965
Dubhdalethe II.................................965-998
Muirecan.......................................998-1001
Maelmuire.....................................1001-1020
Amalgaid......................................1020-1049
Dubhdalethe III...............................1049-1064 opposed by...
Cumuscach.....................................1060-1064
Mael-Isu......................................1064-1091
Domnald.......................................1091-1105


CONNACHT (Connaught)
The rugged and thinly populated west of Ireland.
Moready Muillethan.............................696-702
Kelly..........................................702-705
Indrechtach I..................................705-707
Donal I............................................707
Indrechtach II.................................707-723
Donal II.......................................723-728
Cathal I...........................................728
Fergus I.......................................728-735
Aedh II Balb...................................742-756
Ailill III Medraige............................756-764
Dubh Indrecht..................................764-768
Donn Cothaid...................................768-773
Flaithri.......................................773-777
Artgal.........................................777-782
Tipraite.......................................782-786
Cináed.............................................786
Muirgius.......................................786-792
Colla..........................................792-796
Máel II Cothaid
Diarmait....................................... ? -833
Cathal II......................................833-839
Murchad........................................839-840
Fergus II......................................840-843
Finsnechtae........................................843
Mugrón.........................................843-848
Conchobar I....................................848-882
Aedh III.......................................882-888
Tadg I.........................................888-900
Cathal III.....................................900-925
Tadg II........................................925-956
Fergal II......................................956-c.966
Conchobar II...................................966-973
Cathal IV..........................................973
Cathal V.......................................973-1010
Tadg III in Eich Gil..........................1010-1030
Art Uallach...................................1030-1046
Aedh IV in Gai Bernaig........................1046-1067
Aedh V........................................1067-1087
Ruaidri na Saide Buide........................1087-1092
Flaugherty....................................1092- ?
Tadg IV.......................................1092-1097
Donal III.....................................1097-1102


DUBLIN
The modern city was established in the 9th century, c. 831, by marauding Scandinavians, who thereafter set up a ramshackle Kingdom. This state endured for more than 300 years, although after the Viking defeat at Clontarf in 1014 they were reduced to vassals of the High Kings or of the Kings of Leinster, as Jarls of Dublin.
YNGLING
Olaf I.........................................856-871
Ivar I the Boneless............................871-873
Eystein........................................873-875
Halfdan........................................875-877
Bard (in Limerick 845-880).....................877-881
Sigfried (in Limerick ? -888).................881-888
Sihtric I (in Limerick 888-896)................888-896
Ivar II........................................896-902
vacant
Sihtric II the Blind...........................917-920
Guthfrith I (in Waterford 921-926 ?)...........920-934
Olaf II (in Waterford 926-941).................934-941
Blacar.........................................941-945
Olaf III Brogues...............................945-948
Guthfrith II...................................948-953
Olaf III Brogues (restored)....................953-980
Glunjaran......................................980-989
Sihtric III....................................989-994
Ivar III (in Waterford 961-1000)...............994-995
Sihtric III (restored) (Waterford 1014-22 ?)...995-1035
Margad........................................1035-1038
Ivar IV.......................................1038-1046
Margad (restored).............................1046-1052
To Leinster...................................1052-1072
Gudred........................................1072-1075
To Leinster...................................1075-1119


THE ARDRY - High Kings of All Ireland
This list memorializes the Ardry, the High Kings of All Ireland. It should also be noted that the institution of the Ardry at Tara was seldom if ever universally acknowledged by the local rulers, especially in earlier times. Ennumeration reflects the victory of tradition over reality, in many instances.
Congal I Cionmaghair...........................704-710
Fergal (Aileach 681-722).......................710-722
Fogerty........................................722-724
Kenneth........................................724-728 opposed by...
Flaugherty.....................................724-734
Aedh IV The Handsome (Aileach 722-743).........734-743
Donal III (Meath 715-763)......................743-763
Niall II of the Showers (Aileach 743-778)......763-770
Donchad I (Meath 765-797)......................770-797
Aedh V The Dignified (Aileach 788-819).........797-819
Conchobar II (Meath 803-833)...................819-833
Niall III Caille (Aileach 823-846).............833-838
Viking Incursion Thorgest is not reckoned a legitimate High King, but he is included in most lists because his presence had much impact on the island.
Thorgest the Tyrant............................838-846
O'NEILL It is from the fourth person down in this section, Niall Black-Knee, that the gens Ui Niall takes its name, later to be Anglicized as O'Neill, a large and influential group of lineages even today.
Malachy I (Meath 845-862)......................846-862
Aedh VI the White-Grey (Aileach 867-879).......862-879
Flann the Fox (Meath 876-916)..................879-916
Niall IV Black-Knee (Aileach 915-919)..........916-919
Donchad II (Meath 921-944).....................919-944
Congal II Cnogba...............................944-956
Donal IV (Aileach 943-956, 972-980)............956-980
Malachy II (Meath 976-1022)....................980-1002
O'BRIEN
Brian Boru....................................1002-1014
O'NEILL
Malachy II (restored) (Meath 976-1022)........1014-1022
vacant or chronic civil war...................1022-1121
Donchad.......................................1024-1064 opposed by...
Dermot the Impetuous..........................1042-1072
Turlough I....................................1072-1086
Muircheartach I...............................1086-1119


LEINSTER
The southeastern quarter of Ireland.
Kelly I Cualann................................693-715
Murchad............................................715
Aedh II........................................715-727
Dúnchad........................................727-728
Bran Becc......................................728-738
Faelan II..........................................738
Muiredach......................................738-760
Kelly II.......................................760-776
Rory...........................................776-785
Bran II Tall-Head..............................785-795
Finsnechta Cetharderc..........................795-808
Muiredach......................................808-829
Kelly III......................................829-834
Bran III.......................................834-838
Ruarc..........................................838-846
Lorcán I.......................................846-848
Tuathal I......................................848-854
Muirecán.......................................854-863
Dúnlaing I.....................................863-869
Ailill II......................................869-871
Donal I........................................871-884
Muiredach......................................884-885
Cerball........................................885-909
Augaire I......................................909-917
Fáelán III.....................................917-942
Lorcán II......................................942-943
Broén..........................................943-947
Tuathal II.....................................947-958
Kelly III......................................958-965
Morough........................................965-972
Augaire II.....................................972-978
Donal II Cláen.................................978-984
Donnchad I.....................................984-1003
Máel Mórda....................................1003-1014
Donncuan...........................................1014
Dúnlaing II...................................1014-1016
Bran IV.......................................1016-1018
Augaire III...................................1018-1024
Donnchad II...................................1024-1039
Murchad II....................................1039-1042
Dermot I......................................1042-1052
Murchad III...................................1052-1070
Donal III.....................................1070-1075
Donnchad III..................................1075-1089
Énna I........................................1089-1092
Dermot II.....................................1092-1098
Donnchad IV...................................1098-1115


LIMERICK
In western Ireland, a Kingdom established by the Norse.
Bard (in Dublin 877-881).......................845-880
Sigfrith (in Dublin 881-888)................... ? -888
Sigtryggr (in Dublin 888-896)..................888-896
Olaf...............................................896
Harald I.......................................896- ?
Tomar..........................................922-930
Ivarr..........................................930-977
Harald II......................................977-978


MEATH
The central and eastern portion of the island.
Murchad I......................................689-715
Donal I (High King)............................715-763
Niall..........................................763-765
Murchad II.........................................765
Donnchad I (High King).........................765-797
Donal II.......................................797-799
Ailill.........................................799-803
Conchobar I (High King)........................803-833
Mael II Runaid.................................833-843
Flaherty.......................................843-845
Malachy I (High King)..........................845-862
Lorcan MacCathal...............................862-864
Donnchad II....................................864-876
Flann Sinna (High King)........................876-916
Conchobar II...................................916-919
Donal III......................................919-921
Donnchad III the Brown.........................921-944
Angus II.......................................944-945
Donnchad IV....................................945-950
Aedh...........................................950-951
Donal IV.......................................951-952
Carlus MacConn.................................952-960
Muiredach MacAedh..............................960-974
Donal V (High King)............................974-976
Malachy II (High King).........................976-1022
Malachy III Got...............................1022-1025
Roen..........................................1025-1027
Donal VI......................................1027-1030
Conchobar III.................................1030-1073
Murchad III...................................1073-1076
Malachy IV....................................1076-1087
Donal VII.....................................1087-1094
Donnchad V....................................1094-1105
Conchobar IV.......................................1105
Muirchertach..................................1105-1106


MUNSTER (Mumu)
The southwestern quadrant of Ireland.
O'BRIAN
Conall Corc....................................fl. c. 450
Nad Froich
Angus..........................................fl. c. 490
Daui Iarlaithe
Eocha
Feidlimid I
Black Gilcach
Crimthan Stem
Coirpre the Crooked............................ ? -c. 580
Fergus Scandal.................................580-583
Feidlimid II
Feidlimid III.................................. ? -c. 590
Amalgaid
Gabran
Fingen......................................... ? -619
Aedh I Bennan......................................619
Cathal I.......................................619-628
Failbe the Blood-Red...........................628-c.637
Cuan........................................c. 637-641
Macnach........................................641-662
Cathal II the Motherless Hound.................663-665
Colgu..........................................665-678
Finguine.......................................678-c.695
Ailill......................................c. 695-c.698
Eterscel....................................c. 698- ?
Cormac I....................................... ? -713
Cathal III.....................................713-742
Cathussach.....................................742-770
Mael I Duin....................................770-786
Olchobar I....................................786-c.796
Olchobar II.................................c. 796-805
Artri..........................................805- ?
Tuathal
Tuathgal
Feidlimid IV................................... ? -847
Olchobar III...................................847-851
Ailgenan.......................................851-853
Mael II Gualae.................................853-859
Cenn Faelad....................................859-872
Donnchad I.....................................872-888
Dubh Lachtna...................................888-895
Finguine II Cenn Ngecan........................895-902
Cormac II......................................902-908
Flaherty.......................................908-944
Lorcan
Cellachan Caisil............................... ? -954
Mael III Fathardaig............................954-957
Dubh-da-Bairenn................................957-959
Fergraid.......................................959-961
Donnchad II....................................961-963
Mathgamain.....................................963-976
Maelmuad.......................................976-978
Brian I Bóruma.................................978-1014
Donnchad III..................................1014-1064
Murchad I..........................................1064
Turlough I....................................1064-1086
Murcherty II.......................................1086
Dermot I......................................1086-1118


ORIEL
A local Kingdom in central and southern Ulster.
Conchobar Macha................................695-718
Egnech.........................................718-
Cumascach...................................... ? -738
Congal.........................................738-743
???
Cathal...................................... ? -805/10
Cumasgach......................................825- ?
Dermot......................................... ? -831
Artri (Abbot of Ard Macha).....................831-832
Godfred MacFergus............................. fl. 835
Fogarty I...................................... ? -850
Maelcaurarda...................................850-851
Fogerty II.....................................851-852
?
Muredach.......................................863-874
Congalach I....................................874-882
Maol II Pádraicc...............................882- ?
Maelagrai...................................... ? -893
Laidhgnen......................................893-901
Mael Muire.....................................914-917
Maol III Craoibhe..............................917- ?
Fogarty III....................................947-
Dunchad II..................................... ? -960
Ecnech.........................................961- ?
Laidhgnén...................................... ? -988
Congalach II...................................988-993
three kings, names unknown.....................993-1022
Mathgamain ...................................1022- ?
Gillacolaim.................................... ? -1048
?
Laidhgnen.....................................1051-1053
Lethlobur.....................................1053- ?
Leochán........................................ ? -1065
Lethlobhar....................................1065-1078
Aedh II.......................................1078-1093
Flann I............................................1093
name unknown..................................1094-1096
Flann II......................................1096-1099
Ruaidhri......................................1099-1101


MacGILLAPADRAIGH
This name was applied to this lineage when surnames first began to be used in Ireland, in the 10th century. The family still exists today, the name having been Normanized to FitzPatrick and Gilpatrick.
Colman I..................................c. 550 ?-574
Feradach..................................c. 574 ?-582
Colman II.................................c. 582 ?-601
Ronan.....................................c. 601 ?-624
Scannlan..................................c. 624 ?-640
Crundmael.................................c. 640 ?-656
Faelan......................................c. 656-658
Tuaim Snamha..............................c. 658 ?-678
Cucherca..................................c. 678 ?-713
Kelly I...................................c. 713 ?-730
Forbasach...................................c. 730-735
Anmchad...................................c. 735 ?-760
interregnum....................................760-765
Dungal I....................................c. 765-767
Fergal....................................c. 767 ?-802
Dungal II.................................c. 802 ?-842
Cearbhall I....................................842-888
Riacan.........................................888-894
Dermot.........................................894-900
Kelly II.......................................900-908
Dermot (restored)..............................908-928
Colin..........................................928-933
Donagh I.......................................934-976
Gilpatrick I...................................976-996
Kelly III......................................996-1003
Donagh II....................................1003-1039 with...
Muircheartach.................................1033-1041
Gilpatrick II...........................c. 1041 ? -1055
Donal I.......................................1055-1087
Donagh III (problematic reign)
Finn........................................... ? -1098
Gilpatrick III


TYRCONNELL Northwestern Ulster, in modern Donegal.
Conall Gulban.................................. ? -464
???
Loingseach I................................... ? -704
Fergal......................................... ? -707
Loingseach II.................................. ? -754
Murchad........................................ ? -767
Maolbreasail I................................. ? -819
Dalach......................................... ? -870
Maolbreasail II................................ ? -901
Fogerty........................................ ? -904
Eigneachan I................................... ? -906
Rory I......................................... ? -950
Maolcoluim.....................................950-957
Angus I Maolbreasail...........................957-961
Murcherty I....................................961-963
Maoiliosa......................................963-967
Gillacolum.....................................967-977
Tighearnan.....................................977-980
Aedh I.........................................980-990
Ruaidhri I.....................................990-997
Flaugherty I...................................997-1000
Maolruanaidh..................................1000-1027
Murcherty II..................................1027-1029
Rory I the Great..............................1029-1030
Donal I.......................................1030-1032
Flaugherty II.................................1032-1045
Niall I.......................................1045-1059
Rory II.......................................1059-1071
Donnchad......................................1071-1075
Donal II......................................1075-1083
Murchad.......................................1083-1085
Aedh II.......................................1085-1093
Rory II.......................................1093-1135


ULSTER
Originally encompassing all of the north of Ireland, this Kingdom lost territory to Tyrone and Tyrconnell, and eventually devolved into a more restricted area around what is now Antrim. During the Middle Ages, Ulster was an Anglo-Norman County.
Cucuarain......................................704-706
Aedh I Roin....................................706-732
Breasal III....................................732-733
Cathasach......................................733-749
Fiachna V Dubhdroichtech.......................749-789
Tomalty........................................789-790
Eochu V........................................790-810
Cairioll.......................................810-819
Maolbreasail...................................819-825
Moready I......................................825-839
Madudhan I.....................................839-857
Leathlobhar....................................857-873
Ainbhith.......................................873-882
Eochagan.......................................882-883
Ereamhon.......................................883-886
Fiachna VI.........................................886
Becc II........................................886-893
Moready II.....................................893-895
Aididh.........................................895-898
Kennedy I......................................898-904
Aedh II........................................904-919
Dubhghall......................................919-925
Loingseach.....................................925-932
Madudhan II....................................937-950
Artgal.........................................950-957
Niall I........................................957-971
Aedh III.......................................971-972
Eochu IV.......................................972-1004
Gillacomgal...................................1004-1006
Maolruanaidh..................................1006-1007
Madudhan III.......................................1007
Duibhthuinne.......................................1007
Donal..............................................1007
Niall II......................................1007-1016
Niall III.....................................1016-1062
Eochu V.......................................1062-1063
Donnchad II...................................1063-1065
Culad I.......................................1065-1071
Aedh IV Manannach.............................1071-1074
Dunsleive I...................................1074-1094
Donnchad III..................................1094-1100


WATERFORD In the southeast, a Kingdom established by the Norse.
Patrick........................................891-893
unknown name...................................893-916
Ragnall I......................................916-921
Guthfrith (in Dublin 994-934 ?)................921-926
Olaf I (in Dublin 934-941).....................926-941
unknown name...................................941-969
Ivar (in Dublin 994-995).......................969-1000
--- Mac Ragnaill..............................1000-1014
Sigtryggr (in Dublin 989-994, 995-1035 ?).....1014-1022
Ragnall II....................................1022-1031
Olaf II.......................................1031-1034
Cuionmhan.....................................1034-1037
Ragnall III....................................fl. 11th cent. with...
Smorth.........................................fl. 11th cent.
To Leinster................................c. 1050-1171

PseRamesses
06-09-2004, 11:15
SCOTLAND
The northern portion of the Isle of Britain, together with most of the smaller islands. The Scots as a people are a composite of northern Irish Gael, northern Anglo-Saxon, Norman, Norwegian, and native Caledonian, or Pict.

ANGUS
A region in eastern Scotland, comprising highlands in the west, descending across the Vale of Strathmore to the North Sea in the east.
To Northumbria..............................c. 650-685
??
To Scotland from c. 850
Scottish Mormaers
Dubhucan..........................early 900's-937
Sinall..................................early 1000's


ARGYLL
Western Scotland, comprising the Firth of Clyde, the Mull of Kintyre, and the highlands northward from thence, and facing the Inner Hebrides. Argyll became the core land of the DalRiada... 450-844
Within Scotland................................844-c. 900
Various Gaelo-Norse lords, under Orkney.....c. 900-c. 1140


ATHOLL
A mediaeval Scottish province, successively a mormaerdom, earldom, a marquisate, and a dukedom of Scotland. Atholl is located around the Tilt river valley in central Scotland, with the Firth of Tay to the southeast and Loch Ness to the northwest. The traditional center of the province was Blair Castle. The present Duke of Atholl maintains the only private army in Europe – the Atholl Highlanders.
Drostan......................................early 700's
Talorcan I..................................... ? -739
?
Talorcan II (High King of the Picts 781-5).....752-781 d. 785
?
Mormaerdom of Atholl
MacDONNACHADH
Duncan..................................late 900's-c. 1000
Crinan MacDuncan...........................c. 1000-1045
Crinan was, in addition to being hereditary lay abbot of Dunkeld, chief financier of King Malcolm II of Scotland and as such was one of the more powerful men in the kingdom. He married Malcolm's daughter Bethoc, making him father to King Duncan I of Scotland (and thus progenitor of the Scots Royal House from 1034-1040 and 1058-1286) and Maldred of Dunbar and stepfather of Thorfinn II of Orkney as well as uncle of Macbeth. He was killed in 1045 by Macbeth after attempting a rebellion.
Maelmuir MacDuncan............................1045-1060
Maelmuir also held high office, being essentially Regent or co-governor of Scotland with King Macbeth until c. 1050.
MacCRINAN
Donald Bane (Donald III of Scotland)..........1060-1093
To Scotland directly..........................1093-1211


BUCHAN
An ancient Pictish kingdom, then a Scottish principality, located in the fertile lowlands of eastern Aberdeenshire.
??
To Scotland, c. 900
Mormaerdom of Buchan
Donald I Mac Ruardri......................... c. 1000
Matain Mac Caerill........................ ? -1035
Donald II Mac Dubhacan
Canneach Mac Dubhacan


CAITHNESS
The northernmost tip of mainland Scotland. Caithness' population is a mixture of pre-Celtic, Celtic, and Norse elements. The region has a long tradition of independence, even while nominally within one kingdom or another.
Within the Pictish High Kingship............c. 400-871
Duncan (Dungad)................................fl. late 800's
Dungad's daughter Groa married Thorfinn I of Orkney, solidifying the claims of the Orkney jarls over Caithness.
To Orkney......................................871-1030
Moddan................................c. 1030-1040
To Orkney.....................................1040-1379
Olaus Hrolfi..............................fl. c. 1100


THE DALRIADAN ROYAL HOUSE
Selbach........................................700-723
Dungal.........................................723-726
Eochaid III the Venomous.......................726-733
Alpin I........................................733-736 with...
Muiredach......................................733-736
Eogan II.......................................736-739
Angus I (King of the Picts 728, 729-761).......739-748
Aedh I Finn MacEochu...........................748-778
Fergus II......................................778-781
Domnall III....................................781-805 with...
Donndorc.......................................fl. c. 792
Conall III MacTadg (K. of the Picts 785-789)...805-807
Conall IV......................................807-811
Constantine (K. of the Picts 789-820)..........811-820
Angus II (King of the Picts 820-834)...........820-834
Aedh II........................................834-c. 836
Eoganan I (K. of the Picts 837-839).........c. 836-839
Alpin II ui Aedh Finn..........................839-842
Eoganan II.........................................842
Kenneth I MacAlpin (K. of the Picts 842-843)...842-859
Kenneth succeeded in permanently unifying his realm with that of the Picts. His successors, Kings of the Scots and Picts, are recorded under Scotland.


FIFE
Former sub-kingdom and later earldom in eastern Scotland, between the Firth of Forth and the Firth of Tay.
???
To Scotland.................................c. 850-
Mormaers and Earls of Fife - semi-autonomous.
Mac DUBH (Macduff)
Dubh......................................838-mid 800's
??
MacDuff..............................c. 1030s-1060's
?
Dufagan.......................................early 1100's
Kustennin (Constantine)
Gillemichael
Duncan I......................................mid 1100's

GALLOWAY (Gallgeidhael)
District in the south-west of Scotland, comprising the counties of Kirkcudbright and Wigtown. It was the Novantia of the Romans, and till the end of the 12th century included Carrick, now the southern division of Ayrshire.
To Strathclyde.................................600-870
To Dublin......................................870-875
To Jorvik......................................875-late 800's
To Strathclyde..........................late 800's-c.1000
with intermittent control by independent Norse jarls, including:
Ronald.............................................mid 900's
Suibne mac Cináeda (son Kenneth II of Scot. ?).fl. mid 900's
To Orkney.....................................1000-1057
Malcom Melkoff............................fl. c. 1000
Gilli
MacGill
To Scotland...................................1057-


IONA
Island off the coast of western Scotland, one of the Inner Hebrides. Iona is also known as Ioua, its Pictish name, or as Innis nam Druineach (“ Island of the Cunning Workmen”) or Hy (its Saxon designation). The island is famous as the early center of Celtic Christianity. St. Columba, with his companions, landed there from Ireland in 563. They founded a monastery, which was burned by the Danes in the 8th or 9th cent. Iona was a bishopric from 838 to 1098. The cemetery of St. Oran's Church contains the graves of dozens of monarchs and other lords from Northumbria, Scotland, Ireland, Norway, and France.
Adomnán........................................679-704
Adomnan was the biographer of St Columba. He was abbot at the time of the Synod of Whitby and, although converted to the Roman ways himself he was unable to persuade his community to follow in that path.
Conamail (Roman Rite)..........................704-710 opposed by...
Dunchad (Celtic Rite)..........................707-717 opposed by...
Dorbbéne (Roman Rite)..............................713 opposed by...
Fáelchú (Celtic Rite)..........................716-724 opposed by...
Fedlimid (Roman Rite)..........................722- ? opposed by...
Cilléne Fota...................................724-726
Cilléne Droichtech.............................726-752
Slébine........................................752-767
Suibne.........................................767-772
Bresal.........................................772-801
Connachtach Scriba selectisimus................801-802
Cellach........................................802-814
Diarmait.......................................814-832
Innrechtach....................................832-854
The following continuation is only suggested since much information is fragmentary...
Cellach
Removed St Columba's shrine to Ireland.
Feradach McCormac.............................. ? -879
Flaun McMaleduin............................... ? -890
Maelbrigid (Abbot of Armagh)................... ? -927
Aongas McMuircert..............................927-935
Dubtach.........................................d. 938
Caonconichrae...................................d. 945
Robhartach.....................................945-950's
Duibduin.......................................954-959
Finghin........................................959-966
Fiachra........................................ ? -977
Mugron......................................... ? -985
Maelciarin.....................................985-986
Dunchad........................................986-989
Dubdalethe (Abbot of Armagh)...................989-996
Maelbrigid.....................................996-1005
Muredach......................................1005-1007
MacNia O'Uachtan ?
Malmore............................................1040
Robharbach....................................1040-1057
Gillechrist O'Maddor..........................1057-1062
In the early 900's St. Andrews was recognized as the see with primacy in Scotland, and Iona lost much of its influence. The community, ravaged by Viking raids, continued on into the 1200's, when it was replaced by a Benedictine monastary.


LORD of the ISLES
The Hebrides and the west coast of Scotland generally. The MacDonalds are one of the most widely recognized clans of Scotland, and named as such from the second half of the 13th century. They ruled as virtually independent monarchs in the West until the waning of the Middle Ages.
Gothfrith..........................................mid 800's
Ketil Flatnose, from the Isle of Man........c. 853-c.866
Olaf Ingjaldson the White (Olaf I of Dublin ?).....later 800's
Thorstein Olafson the Red....................880's-890
To Orkney......................................890-c.975
Gilli..............................................late 900's
To Orkney......................................989-1014
Lagman.............................................early 1000's
To Orkney..................................c. 1025-1065
To the Isle of Man............................1065-1098
To Norway.....................................1098-1105


LOTHIAN
Southeastern Scotland; the southern shore of the Firth of Forth, including the modern capital of Edinburgh.
Northumbrian Sub-Kingdom of DUNBAR
Beornheth......................................671-685
Beorhtred......................................685-698
Beorhtfrith....................................698-711 >
To Northumbria..............................711 > -875
To Jorvik (York)...............................875-954
To England.....................................954-c.975
To Scotland.................................c. 975-1296


MORAY
Northeastern Scotland; the fertile coastal regions from the northern approach to Loch Ness in the west, to Aberdeen in the east.
To Scotland, c. 850
CENEL LOARN
Maelbrigte I.............................. ? -892
Ruadri..................................early 900's
Cathmail
Donald
Morgan ?
Domnall ?
Donnchad..................................fl. 976
Rory......................................fl. 980's
Maelbrigte II
Finlay.................................c. 990-1020
Malcolm..................................1020-1029
Gillacomgan..............................1029-1032
Macbeth (K. of Scots 1040-57).................1032-1057
Lulach the Simple (K. of Scots 1057-8)........1057-1058
Mael Snechta.............................1058-1078
Aedh.....................................1078-1116 ?
Angus.................................1116 ? -1130
To Scotland directly thereafter...
ORKNEY
The Orkney Isles, an archipelago off the north coast of Britain, were in the control of the Kings of Norway for many centuries, but produced a notable series of Jarls who have left an indelible imprint on Scottish history. The following list attempts to trace them, although it must be admitted that it is in a very tentative and confused state. One of the few sources is the Orkneyinga Saga, which is quite eloquent, but omits dates for the most part; these must be supplied, where they can at all, by indirect means.
EYSTEINSSON
Rognvald I the Wise.........................c. 874-c.875
Sigurd I the Powerful.......................c. 875-c.892 with...
Thorstein the Red (Caithness & Sutherland)..c. 875-c.900
Guthorm.....................................c. 892-c.893
Hallad......................................c. 893-c.894
Thori Treebeard....................................c.894 with...
Kalf Skurfa........................................c.894
Turf-Einar I................................c. 894-c. 910/20
Arnkel...................................c. 910/20-954 with...
Erlend I.................................c. 910/20-954 and...
Eric Bloodaxe (K. Norway, then K. of York)..c. 937-954
Gunnhilda (fem.)................................954-955 with...
Ragnfred.......................................954-955 and...
Godred.........................................954-955 and...
Thorfinn I Skullsplitter....................c. 947-977 with...
Gunnhilda (restored)...........................976-977
Arnfinn........................................977-c. with...
Havard.........................................977-c.981
Einar II Buttered-Bread............................c.981
Einar III Hard-Mouth...............................c.981
Ljot........................................c. 981-c.984 with...
Skuli.......................................c. 981-c.984
Hlodvir.....................................c. 984-c.987
Sigurd II the Stout.........................c. 987-1014
Somerled......................................1014-1015 with...
Brusi.........................................1014-1018 and...
Einar IV Wrymouth.............................1014-1020
Brusi (restored)..............................1020-1030 with...
Thorfinn II the Mighty........................1021-1064 with...
Rognvald II...................................1038-1046
Paul I........................................1064-1098 with...
Erlend II.....................................1064-1098
To Norway directly............................1098-1105


THE PICTS
The Pictish people were an early folk living in what is now Scotland. The seem to have been Celts, but of a very different strain than the Goidelic and Brythonic sorts in the rest of Britain. A matrilineal people, very little is known about them today. Their language was never transcribed, so all we have of it are some proper names, some of which show signs of Celticization. Their name for themselves is unknown; the Romans coined the term Picti, meaning the painted ones, the ones who tattoo themselves, and walled off Caledonia from the rest of Britain, since they could not conquer it. After the withdrawal of the legions, Goidelic Celts began invading Caledonia, touching off a 400 year war with the Picts. During this time, the Picts became loosely organized in a ramshackle kingdom, which this list memorializes. In this era, the Picts gradually came to resemble their opponents more and more. Christianity was introduced, and Scots Gaelic developed as a dominant language. Eventually, the Scots were able to suborn the Picts by marrying Pictish royal women, inheriting the kingdom, and passing it on to their patrilineal heirs. This was tried several times, the Picts overthrowing the alien monarch each time. Eventually though, the Scots were successful. Nevertheless, the Picts have retained a strong grip on the imagination of succeeding generations, albeit the fact that even the Scots themselves didn't know their opponent's name; the Gaels simply refered to them as An Cruithain, Scottish for the painted ones, the ones who tattoo themselves...
THE PICTISH ROYAL HOUSE
Brede IV.......................................697-706
Naiton IV......................................706-724
Drest VI.......................................724-726
Alpin I of Dalriada............................726-728
Angus I (King of Dalriada 739-748).................728
Naiton IV (restored)...........................728-729
Angus I (King of Dalriada 739-748) (rest.).....729-761
Brede V........................................761-763
Ciniod.........................................763-775
Alpin II.......................................775-779
Drest VII (in the North).......................779-782 opposed by...
Talorcan II (in the South).....................779-785 opposed by...
Talorcan III...................................782-785
Conall Mactadg (K. of Dalriada 805-807)........785-789 with...
Constantine (King of Dalriada 811-820).........789-820
Angus II (King of Dalriada 820-834)............820-834 with...
Alpin III......................................832-834
Drest VIII.....................................834-837 with...
Talorc V.......................................834-837
Eoganan (King of Dalriada c. 836-839)..........837-839
Uurad..........................................839-842
Brede VI...........................................842
Kenneth I (King of Dalriada 842-859)...........842-843
Brede VII......................................843-845
Drest IX.......................................845-847
To Dalriada, to form the Kingdom of the Scots and Picts
ROSS An earldom in northwestern Scotland.


”SCOTLAND”
The kingdom of Scotland emerged in the 9th century CE. from the enforced union of the Kingdom of DalRiada, under Kenneth I, with that of the Kingdom of the Picts. The realm was fully extended in 1034 with the absorption of the Kingdom of Strathclyde. The Hebrides, Orkney Isles, and the Shetland Isles (Norwegian and then Danish fiefs) were attached in 1472.
MacALPIN
Kenneth I......................................844-859
Donald I.......................................859-863
Constantine I..................................863-877
Aedh Whitefoot.................................877-878
MacRUNN
Eochu (Strathclyde 877-889)....................878-889 with...
MacDUNGAL
Girig I........................................878-889
MacALPIN
Donald II......................................889-900
Constantine II.................................900-942
Malcolm II.....................................942-954
Indulf (Strathclyde 945-954)...................954-962
Duff (Strathclyde 954-62)......................962-967
Colin Ring.....................................967-971
Kenneth II (Lowlands)..........................971-995 opposed by...
Olav (Highlands)...............................971-977
Constantine III the Bald.......................995-997
Kenneth III....................................997-1005 with...
Girig II.......................................997-1005
Malcolm II (Strathclyde 990-995)..............1005-1034
MacCRINAN
Duncan I (Strathclyde c. 1018-1040)...........1034-1040
MacFINLAEC
Macbeth.......................................1040-1057
MacGILLACOMGAN
Lulach the Simple.............................1057-1058
MacCRINAN
Malcolm III Great-Head........................1058-1093
Donald III Bane...............................1093-1094
Duncan II..........................................1094
Donald III Bane (restored)....................1094-1097 with...
Edmund........................................1094-1097
Edgar.........................................1097-1107


SHETLAND ISLANDS
An archipelago of over one hundred small islands in the North Sea, located between the Orkneys to the south and the Faeroe Islands to the northwest. The islands have been occupied for several millenia, and were a Norse stronghold throughout the Middle Ages.
To the Picts.................................c.400-800
Norse settlement from 800
Sigurd Hrolf
Einar Sigurdson
To Orkney...................................c. 900-1098
To Norway (Denmark from 1380).................1098-1472


SKYE
The largest and most northerly island of the Inner Hebrides.
To Dal Riada, and Scotland.....................500-mid 800's
Within the Lordship of the Isles.........mid 800's-1494



STRATHCLYDE
This loosely organized kingdom was located in what is now southwestern Scotland and Northwestern England. Its center was in Ayrshire, at the present-day city of Dumbarton. Situated as it was between Scotland and Cumbria, it retained aspects of both Gaelic and Cymric culture. Its capital destroyed in 870 by Vikings, it fell under Scottish suzerainty in the 10th century, but regained independence for a 55 year period after 962.
Beli II........................................694-722
Tudor..........................................722-752
Domgal III.....................................752-760
Owen II........................................760-c.780
Rhydderc II....................................fl. 790's
Cynan.......................................... ? -816
Domgal IV......................................816- ?
Arthgal........................................ ? -872
Rhun...........................................872-877
Eochu (K. of Scots 878-889)....................877-889
To Scotland....................................878-937
Donald I..................................908-c. 925 d.934
Owen III...............................c. 925-937
Dunmail........................................937-945
To Scotland....................................945-962
Indulf (K. of Scots 954-962)..............945-954 d. 962: with...
Duff (K. of Scots 962-967)................954-962 d.967
Donald II......................................962-973
Malcolm III....................................973-997 with...
Malcolm IV (K. of Scots 1005-1034).............990-995
Owen IV the Bald...............................997-c.1018
Duncan I MacCrinan (K. Scots 1034-40).c. 1018-1040
Malcolm V Canmore (K. of Scots 1058-93)..1040-1093
To Scotland thereafter...
The penultimate King, Duncan (the murdered sovereign in Shakespeare's Macbeth), gained the Kingdom of Strathclyde as a fief of the Kingdom of Scotland at the demise of the last native king, With his succession to the Scottish throne in 1034, Strathclyde was permanently associated with Scotland.


SUTHERLAND
In the far north, it is named as it is (derived from the Old Norse Sudrland - Southland) from the perspective of the rulers of Orkney, as it lies just to the south of Caithness, on the mainland. The Earls (now Dukes) of Sutherland are also the chieftains of the Scottish clan bearing the same name. Traditionally they were blood enemies of the Sinclairs of Caithness, and were closely allied with Clan Murray of northeastern Scotland, who were also descended from the same Flemish house.
To the Pictish High Kingdom.................c. 400-871
Disputed zone between Orkney and Scotland......871-c.950
To Orkney...................................c. 950-1100
To Scotland thereafter...

PseRamesses
06-09-2004, 12:03
Hi crew,
I think we´ve done as much as we can with the eastern and central parts of the map. Still haven´t received the names lists from Earl of Sandwich yet. I though we´d go over the Brittish Isles, see my five earlier rather extensive posts on possible factions and powercentras. Any comments, suggestions and facts are welcome from all you non-crewies too.
Now this is a mess. I know what I and Norse would like to have regarding factions and such but let´s have a debate on it.

England:
1. Cornwall
2. East Anglia
3. Kent
4. Mercia*
5. Northumbria*
6. Sussex*
7. Wessex

Wales*:
1. Anglesey
2. Brycheiniog
3. Edern
4. Dyfed
5. Meriadoc
6. Gwent
7. Gwynedd
8. Morgannwg
9. N. Powys
10. Powys
11. S. Powys
12. Rhosa
13. Rhufoniog

Isle of Man

Ireland*:
1. Aileach
2. Armagh
3. Connacht
4. Dublin
5. Leinster
6. Limerick
7. Meath
8. Munster
9. Oriel
10. MacGillapadraigh
11. Tyrconnell
12. Ulster
13. Waterford

Scotland* & Picts*:
1. Angus
2. Argyll
3. Connacht
4. Atholl
5. MacDonnachadh
6. Buchan
7. Caithness
8. DalRidian
9. Fife
10. Galloway
11. Iona
12. Lord of the Isles
13. Lothian
14. Moray
15. Orkney
16. Shetlands
17. Skye
18. Strathclyde
19. Sutherlands

Puh I know we´re not making a Brittish mod here but it´s better to start from scratch, don´t you think? Read through my earlier posts on theese factions. Add more ones if you feel I´ve missed out on someone and give me your suggestions. Factions marked with an * I think we all can agree upon have to be in the game, right?

Earl of Sandwich
06-09-2004, 20:58
I sent the names list, so evidently the problem lies in stupidity of the e-mail system. I will try once more with hotmail. Hopefully it might work this time.

PseRamesses
06-10-2004, 14:05
@Earl of Sandwich,
It might be my fault since I´ve serious problems withmy PC. Anyway, if undeliverable you should have got a undeliverable mess back. Have you got the right adress? (pse@brevet.se)

@EC,
The campmap is´t coming along at all due to my PC-problems. I can only access the contents of my PC in safety-mode and there I can´t work with the graphics due to far to low resolution (16 bit). I could re-format my HD but then I´ll loose all data I have on my HD right. I can´t burn a cd since the virus or the hi-jacking from jk.biz has trashed my burner and wont let me go into the controlpanel, systems or anywhere except the stuff I have on my desktop. I can play games, use programs and access docs in folders there but I simply can´t access anything within my computer. I found a site called Computer Cops and a solution to the hi-jacking problem but the operation is very complex and will take me a long time. My only window in time to do that operation is this weekend or the next in 14 days. If I can´t solve this problem within the next couple of weeks I have to re-format my HD which also take a while to do. Therefore I´m quite uable to give you guys notice on the campmaps completion, sorry But nothing stops you to have a go at it ;)

wilpuri
06-10-2004, 21:15
PseRamesses,
I hope you get your computer working as soon as possible, you have really been the driving force within this mod If there's anything I can do, just let me know

A thought that came to me a few days ago: As things are, it seems that the 3 Finnish tribes get one province each, as do the Estonians. As Baltic and Finnish warriors were much like Viking warriors, only lighter, I suggest making troop upkeep for Baltic and Finnic factions lower. Otherwise the starting provinces should be made quite rich, and that in turn would give an unfair advantage to any other faction who conquers it...
How have you thought of implementing this? I have further updated some of my unit descriptions, but I suppose it is a bit early with them...

Hope to hear from you soon

VikingHorde
06-10-2004, 22:08
Hi
Im getting some good know-how on working with my own mod, so soon I can start helping on that part. I have added new shields/swords and it looks good ingame. It will be the colours in the pallete that will be the limit on shield design, unless I'll change the pallete (but that changes all of the units). Shields can however be made so that it allways has the same colour as the faction. Could be cool..

VikingHorde
06-10-2004, 23:34
Thanks EC, good info. I will give it a try. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Trax
06-11-2004, 00:17
Hi wilpuri, I read you made the Estonian name list.
Could you post it here, I would like to take a look at this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

The unit list you made sounds fine, sadly I have still not managed to find any pictures or even decent description of ancient Estonian warriors.

BTW, when fighting against the Sword Brethern Estonians even learned to use crossbows and to build siege engines.

wilpuri
06-11-2004, 05:30
Quote[/b] ]Hi wilpuri, I read you made the Estonian name list.

Yup, here it is. It was quite hard to find proper, pre-christian names, but I think I did a decent job. Of course, all of these weren't used, and so I had to fill the gaps with names that sound Estonian without much Germanic influence. If you have anything to point out, please do so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

By the way, I was thinking, may be these would be ok for the Livs as well?

Estonian forenames
Ülo
Toivo
Valdo
Vesse
Lembitu
Ahti
Vaino
Kaupo
Arvo
Tunne
Urve
Sulev
Kalev
Olev
Alev
Vootele
Meelis
Ukko
Kauko
Lempi
Lempo
Valge
Valdur
Malev
Seppo
Ilmar
Uuno
Uno
Väinö
Väinu
Ahto
Tulev

Estonian Surnames
Manivald
Manivalde
Tõivelemb
Õnnepäev
Järvi
Lepik
Puusepp
Raudsepp
Saar
Rätsepp
Vainmaa
Viru
Saare
Saari
Pajukivi
Savisaar
Sepp
Tamm
Laine
Raudkivi
Kallasmaa
Veerpalu
Tammleht
Kaukopäev
Lempivalge
Ikävalge
Ikäpäev
Järv
Saarma
Kalevipoeg
Talvemaa
Talve
Eenpalu
Arumaa
Arumae
Leetmaa
Metsmaa
Salumae
Virumaa
Leemets
Tammsaar

Estonian princesses
Aino
Aimo
Tuuli
Sirje
Salme
Liekko
Meri-Tuuli
Päive
Päivi
Ilmatar
Pilve
Pilvi
Helle

Estonian Kings and Princes
Kaupo Arumaa
Arvo Talve
Tunne Salumae
Urve Raudsepp
Sulev Saarmaa
Kalev Savisaar
Olev Kalevipoeg
Alev Kaukopäev
Vootele Veerpalu
Ülo Raudkivi
Toivo Metsmaa
Valdo Tammleht
Väinu Leemets
Ahto Tammsaar
Ahti Puusepp


Quote[/b] ]BTW, when fighting against the Sword Brethern Estonians even learned to use crossbows and to build siege engines.
Great Info I'll be sure to add a few more descriptions for the Estonians... These should probably only be available in late, right? I have already made a description for a unit called semigallain crossbowmen, reflecting the weapons finidings in graves on traditional semigallian controlled land.

PseRamesses
06-11-2004, 07:11
Last night I found away around the problem I have with not beeing able to access stuff other than on my desktop, it was soo easy. I simply start in safety-mode, extract the needed files there and place it on my desktop, reboot and voilá, I can now access this file while running on normal mode.

@Wilpurri,
Your thoughts on lowering up-keep costs for the small Finnish and Baltic factions is sound since they A/ have fewer income than the rest and B/ have less powerful troops.

BTW, has anyone any comments on the all the English factions that I posted recently. Personally I´d like to see the original 7 factions from VI plus 2 more. East Anglia could pose as a Saxon/ Mercian threat in eastern England and one more Irish faction would be great too.

@EC,
Earl of Sandwich sent me his list of German names and heroes last night. Thanks a lot EoS This is what it looks like. Incorporate it to previous work done on the Germans.

// Frankish names
[Louis] {Louis}
[Charles] {Charles}
[Pepin] {Pepin}
[Carloman] {Carloman}
[Odo] {Odo}
[Rudolph] {Rudolph}
[Lothar] {Lothar}
[Henri] {Henri}
[Arnulf] {Arnulf}
[Francis] {Francis}
[Robert] {Robert}
[Guillaume] {Guillaume}
[Theuderic] {Theuderic}
[Dagobert] {Dagobert}
[Clotaire] {Clotaire}
[Clovis] {Clovis}
[Sigebert] {Sigebert}
[Lanfrank] {Lanfrank}
[Geoffroi] {Geoffroi}
[Baldwin] {Baldwin}
[Richard] {Richard}
[Fulk] {Fulk}
[Thibaut] {Thibaut}
[Gerbert] {Gerbert}
[Pierre] {Pierre}
[Raymond] {Raymond}
[Bernard] {Bernard}
[Fredelon] {Fredelon}
[Warin] {Warin}
[Torsin] {Torsin}
[Ranulf] {Ranulf}
[Ecfird] {Ecfird}
[Ingelger] {Ingelger}
[Enguerrand] {Enguerrand}
[Warnegald] {Warnegald}

// Old High German names
[Haganrih] {Haganrih}
[Otho] {Otho}
[Conrad] {Conrad}
[Arnulf] {Arnulf}
[Eberhard] {Eberhard}
[Berthold] {Berthold}
[Ludwig] {Ludwig}
[Rudolf] {Rudolf}
[Herrmann] {Herrman}
[Lothair] {Lothair}
[Fridurih] {Fridurih}
[Aranold] {Aranold}
[Rainald] {Rainald}
[Tancred] {Tancred}
[Adolf] {Adolf}
[Liutpold] {Liutpold}
[Welf] {Welf}
[Heimerich] {Heimerich}
[Adalbrecht] {Adalbrecht}
[Willahelm] {Willahelm}
[Karl] {Karl}
[Ruprecht] {Ruprecht}
[Sigismund] {Sigismund}
[Dietrich] {Dietrich}
[Elberhard] {Elberhard}
[Erchanger] {Erchanger}
[Burkhard] {Burkhard}
[Ernst] {Ernst}
[Ludolf] {Ludolf}
[Riddag] {Riddag}
[Eckard] {Eckard}
[Gunzelin] {Gunzelin}
[Egbert] {Egbert}
[Wisbert] {Wisbert}
[Isenbard] {Isenbard}
[Gerold] {Gerold}
[Lanfred] {Lanfred}
[Theodobald] {Theodobald}
[Willehari] {Willehari}

// 5: frankish_forenames
ADD_FORENAMES::
Louis
Charles
Pepin
Carloman
Odo
Rudolph
Lothar
Henri
Jean
// ONLY FIRST 5 ARE VALID KING NAMES RATHER THAN 8
Charles
Arnulf
Louis
Jean
Charles
Henri
Francis
Robert
Guillaume
Theuderic
Dagobert
Clotaire
Clovis
Sigebert
Odo
Lanfrank
Geoffroi
Baldwin
Richard
Fulk
Thibaut
Gerbert
Pierre
Raymond
Bernard
Fredelon
Warin
Torsin
Ranulf
Ecfird
Ingelger
Enguerrand
Richard
Francis
Robert
Guillaume
Pierre
Richard
Robert
Warnegald

//16: bavarian_fornames
ADD_FORENAMES::
Haganrih
Otho
Conrad
Arnulf
Eberhard
Berthold
Ludwig
Rudolf
Herrmann
Lothair
Fridurih
Aranold
Rainald
Tancred
Adolf
Liutpold
Otho
Haganrih
Conrad
Welf
Rudolf
Herrmann
Lothair
Heimerich
Fridurih
Aranold
Rainald
Tancred
Adolf
Liutpold
Adalbrecht
Willahelm
Ludwig
Karl
Ruprecht
Sigismund
Dietrich
Elberhard
Erchanger
Burkhard
Ernst
Ludolf
Riddag
Eckard
Gunzelin
Egbert
Wisbert
Isenbard
Gerold
Lanfred
Theodobald
Willehari

Now I´m going to work on the raw-map one week more. Deliver it to you guys so that we can have something to work with as a reference to factions, borders, climate etc etc.
Norses finals has been delayed to the 16/6 so it bought me a little time extra for this, puh When he´s done and ready for modding we can sit down and agree upon a pace that feels comfortable to us all to proceed with, ok?

uksiu
06-11-2004, 08:09
Quote[/b] ][Francis] {Francis}I'm not a French, but could it possible that Francois is correct? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

BTW: Best Regards and Good Luck in Creating http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Trax
06-11-2004, 09:28
Wilpuri, are the surnames really necessary? Most of them sound way too modern to my ear, not speaking the fact that no such things were around here until 19th century. IIRC the mongols have no surnames in MTW and it works fine.

I propose the following changes.

Urve is a womans name.
Lempi (rather Lembi in Estonian) also a womans name.
Ukko - Uku
Seppo - Sepo
Väinö - Väino


Manivald
Manivalde
Tõivelemb
Õnnepäev
were ancient forenames.

wilpuri
06-11-2004, 11:06
Trax, you are right about the surnames, but I thought they were necessary. If generals, kings, etc can be without them, then ALL baltic factions should be without surnames.
BTW, do you think the Livs could have the same names as the Estonians?

About the name Lempi/Lembi, at least in Finland, it is believed, that it could be both male AND female... And like many Finnish names, it might be from the other side of the Gulf...

So, if we don't have to have surnames, let's get rid of them. The ones I labeled as being surnames could probably be used as forenames then? Because it is widely believed, that the Balts and the Baltic Finns used a two-stem naming system, and most of the Estonian surnames i gave are two-stemmed. What o you think? Anyway, you are the expert on Estonian names, so could you may be fine-tune the name list? I could do the same for the Balts and Finns.

EDIT: By the way PseRamesses, I agree with you on the English factions, but I think that the British Isles may be have too many provinces? It really eats up a lot of space in that sense.

Trax
06-11-2004, 15:52
Yes, I think the surnames are unnecessary. The closest thing to surnames may have been the name of the farm or in the case of the nobility the name of the stronghold.
For example
Lehola Lembitu (Lembitu of Lehola)- the most important Estonian leader in the fight against the crusaders.

I really don´t know anything about Liv names, but I don´t think that thay were too different.

Earl of Sandwich
06-11-2004, 16:27
Quote[/b] ] IIRC the mongols have no surnames in MTW and it works fine.


Yeah, but then again, the mongols have lots of forenames, so that there is variety without having two different name parts.

uksiu
06-11-2004, 18:09
Quote[/b] ]Francis is a Frankish name, not French. Languages change over time, so do the names.I see.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif So, what about old Frankish names, like: Childebert, Childeric, Chilperic, Chlodomer, Guntram and Merovech? My eyes are week and I don't see them. I suppose Franks had rulers called Childebert etc.
Maybe theese names are too old? I don't know the history of Frankish... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

wilpuri
06-12-2004, 00:58
I've been conducting some research again, just for my own pleasure, and I have found out, that the capital of Häme should be Vanainlinna. It was on the ruins of Vanainlinna, that Hämeenlinna (Tavastehus) was built.

Trax, I have found some decent pictures for the unit descriptions, and I think most of them will do. I can send you the file if you like, just give me your email.
By the way, I found the OLDEST Baltic-Finnish rune-written record discovered. It was discovered by archaeologists in 1957, at Novgorod, from the 13th century. It is in the Aunus-Karelian dialect:

http://www.taivaansusi.net/historia/tuohi.gif

It is Ukkosen Loitsu or the spell of Ukko, or thunder. I'm not quite sure which. Pretty cool, huh?

Trax
06-12-2004, 01:27
My e- mail is thrax@hot.ee

PseRamesses
06-12-2004, 10:40
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ June 11 2004,08:05)]Very good he did that, but what does it have to do with me?
Oops, I thought you had a Frankish names-list going, didn´t you? Then who did? I´ve to check the thread again.


Quote[/b] ]By the way PseRamesses, I agree with you on the English factions, but I think that the British Isles may be have too many provinces? It really eats up a lot of space in that sense.

That´s why I think its really great that we´re skimming through all the factions and possible provinces to see what we absolutely must have and what we can loose. AS I said from the beginning we might have to loose a couple of Brittish provinces and maybee even one faction, we´ll see.

PseRamesses
06-12-2004, 10:59
Quote[/b] (Trax @ June 11 2004,09:52)]Yes, I think the surnames are unnecessary. The closest thing to surnames may have been the name of the farm or in the case of the nobility the name of the stronghold.
For example
I really don´t know anything about Liv names, but I don´t think that thay were too different.
@Trax & Wilpurri,
It´s really the same everywhere. Going so far back as the 8th-10th century as this mod does surnames are usually given related to birtplace, son of... and dauhter of... or by a deed like Olaf the Brave or by a special physical attribute like the Erik the Holy, Inge the lisper and limper or Sverker Forkbeard. Broadshield, Bluetooth, Red, Tall etc etc. IMO it would be great to give the Baltics a flavour of originality if you add theese kinds of surnames to your list too. Remember that all units used in the game are nobility or soldiers and not common folk therefore a surname is important. You can derrive names from 11th, 12th and even 13th century this way as long as it´s not heroes or kings. Sure, names changes over time but I found out that it doesn´t that much when I researched Scandinavian names for MM v4. Good luck

PseRamesses
06-14-2004, 17:05
Well guys, since Norse will be back soon and I hopefully can deliver the map in time ;) I think I should ask you what your plans for the summer are?
Personally I´m working through it, not one single day of vacation. Usually people are gone all of July here in Sweden but I can atlest chip in some work for a couple of hrs per day during that period. I also know that Norse will be on a well deserved vacation later on this summer. I also know that VH will be pre-occupied with his own mod for a couple of weeks more.

PS. Didn´t you guys receive the pic with the brave cat I send you all this weekend?

wilpuri
06-14-2004, 18:51
Yeah I received the mail. I myself will be on vacation, but I have internet access through most of the summer. I still have 2 more weeks of work, though.

VikingHorde
06-14-2004, 19:20
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 14 2004,18:05)]I also know that VH will be pre-occupied with his own mod for a couple of weeks more.

PS. Didn´t you guys receive the pic with the brave cat I send you all this weekend?
I will work on my own mod, but will allso use some time on FotN mod. Im getting a lot of work done right now, so things are looking good (have long weekends and vacation comming in two weeks time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ). My vacation will be at home this year, so got some good late nights comming up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Brave cat? hmm, my mail server has been down for about 4 days. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif Last time it happend, EC was trying to send me a mail and in the end I resived his mail 3 times. I just hate unstable servers.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

wilpuri
06-16-2004, 18:11
Some info on trade goods. I might make additions to these if I find more info.

Karelia:
Furs (Weasel, Squirrel, Reindeer)
Fish (Salmon)
Reindeer meat
Horses

Häme:
Walrus Tusks (taxed from Lapps and acquired on long hunting trips)
Furs (same as Karelia)
Seal fat


Finland-Proper:
Pottery (not very profitable)
Furs (Same as Karelia)


I suppose all baltic states should have amber among other tradable goods. I will look into baltic trade later.

I've also thought of some new buildings that might suit the Baltic and Finnic factions:

Käräjät or may be court house or something like that
In viking age finnish society there was a law system, with a judge in charge and a council of elders, who decided on matters of law and justice at the Käräjät.

The one above would probably go for Estonia, too?

The Käräjät could also provide a title, the judge

e.g. Lawman of [name of province]
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 1
Dread: 3
Acumen: 0

Roads (probably for ALL factions?)
Roads in northern Europe during the viking-age were rare, and traders and travellers alike preffered water-ways. However, roads were very useful, when in place. They stimulated communication and trade between settlements

Effect: +20% in trade, perhaps?

More titles:
War chief of [faction]
in Finnish it could be Sotakuningas of ----
or Sotapäälikkö of ----
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 0
Dread: 2
Acumen: 1

I don't suppose you will make religious agents for pagan factions, since that would be historically quite incorrect (the pagan faiths were had a ver loose, if any, organisation). However, Some sort of religious leader existed in pagan societies, may be a title? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif
Wiseman of [province]
or in Finnish, Tietäjä of ---

Loyalty: 1
Piety: 3
Dread: 1
Acumen: 0

So, just to keep things moving http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

BTW, PseRamesses, how is the map coming along?

Prince Tryphon
06-17-2004, 22:39
Get some men at arms units, better cav for other factions etc



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

PseRamesses
06-18-2004, 04:50
Quote[/b] (Prince Tryphon @ June 17 2004,16:39)]Get some men at arms units, better cav for other factions etc.
Prince Tryphon, care to elaborate on what you mean with better MAA and CAV? All things are relative to eachother as is the case with the unit combo of this mod. As you might have noticed this is a viking mod set in the era spanning from 8th to 11th century where CAV wasn´t that common but they will be there, trust me.
Any suggestions on unique factionunits and units in general will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

PseRamesses
06-18-2004, 06:05
EC,
I noticed that you have made a clickable link to this thread beneth your avatar which is neat. Would you be so kind as to post the command-line for this so that we all can have it?

wilpuri
06-18-2004, 14:16
PseRamesses, What did you think about the ideas I posted above?

PseRamesses
06-18-2004, 15:52
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 16 2004,12:11)]

Quote[/b] ]Some info on trade goods. I might make additions to these if I find more info.

Karelia:
Furs (Weasel, Squirrel, Reindeer)
Fish (Salmon)

Häme:
Walrus Tusks (taxed from Lapps and acquired on long hunting trips)
Furs (same as Karelia)
Seal fat

Finland-Proper:
Pottery (not very profitable)
Furs (Same as Karelia)

Looks great and belivable. Have you checked all the tradegoods in the text-file. I can´t remember them all fom VI. Anyway, new ones can always be made.


Quote[/b] ]I suppose all baltic states should have amber among other tradable goods. I will look into baltic trade later.

Defenitely IMO they should almost be priviliged with monopoly of it. Although amber could be found in Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Poland etc.


Quote[/b] ]I've also thought of some new buildings that might suit the Baltic and Finnic factions:
Käräjät or may be court house or something like that
In viking age finnish society there was a law system, with a judge in charge and a council of elders, who decided on matters of law and justice at the Käräjät.
The one above would probably go for Estonia, too?
The Käräjät could also provide a title, the judge

e.g. Lawman of [name of province]
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 1
Dread: 3
Acumen: 0

War chief of [faction]
in Finnish it could be Sotakuningas of ----
or Sotapäälikkö of ----
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 0
Dread: 2
Acumen: 1

Nice, indeed.


Quote[/b] ]Roads (probably for ALL factions?)
Roads in northern Europe during the viking-age were rare, and traders and travellers alike preffered water-ways. However, roads were very useful, when in place. They stimulated communication and trade between settlements
Effect: +20% in trade, perhaps?

I´ve also thought a lot about roads but merley to boost landtrade. Much like seatrade boosts coastal trade significantly and basically very high tech or in late era.


Quote[/b] ]I don't suppose you will make religious agents for pagan factions, since that would be historically quite incorrect (the pagan faiths were had a ver loose, if any, organisation). However, Some sort of religious leader existed in pagan societies, may be a title? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif
Wiseman of [province]
or in Finnish, Tietäjä of ---

Loyalty: 1
Piety: 3
Dread: 1
Acumen: 0

I think some kind of shaman that boost pagan zeal couldn´t be that incorrect, right?


Quote[/b] ]BTW, PseRamesses, how is the map coming along?

It´s been at a total standstill since last saturday due to more problems. It´s a long story. Anyway, tomorrow I´m going to pick up Adobe Photoshop so PSP8 trialware has expired for the last time, he he

wilpuri
06-18-2004, 16:52
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 18 2004,09:52)]I think some kind of shaman that boost pagan zeal couldn´t be that incorrect, right?
Well yes, Shamans existed of course, but... There was no pagan church as far as I know, that could've directed religious efforts.. If they are bad at converting people of other religions, but good enough to keep the pagan faith alive, I suppose we could have pagan religious agents. I have actually made a description for them, just in case. Yes, I know, I have been an industrious little boy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif




http://pakana.150m.com/2384_149.jpg
(The picture is of a Saame Shaman, and doesn't have to be used, I have a few other ideas as well)

Intomies or Tietäjä (Pagan priest, in case religious agents will be included for pagan factions)
These wisemen were the religious leaders of Baltic-Finnish societies. They're knowledge was vast, and their guidance kept strengthened the individualistic pagan faith of the Baltic-Finns alive.

PseRamesses
06-19-2004, 09:50
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 18 2004,10:52)]

Quote[/b] ]Well yes, Shamans existed of course, but... There was no pagan church as far as I know, that could've directed religious efforts.. If they are bad at converting people of other religions, but good enough to keep the pagan faith alive, I suppose we could have pagan religious agents. I have actually made a description for them, just in case. Yes, I know, I have been an industrious little boy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Pagan religious agents are a must IMHO mainly to boost faith and zeal. Churches will be replaced by shrines like in VI.
And for your industriness I must say that the Finnish/ Baltic region wouldn´t have got the awsome representation in this mod if it wasn´t for you Wilpurri, and Trax ofcourse I´m really impressed by your enthusiasm and the pase you work. Isn´t in great when you get hooked on as job or project? This is the environment that Norse and I want to work with. You do it when you love it and put it aside when you get bored or feel you get swamped. This mod is all about that I wish I will solve the strat-map problems I´ve been having and move on to more important and pressing matter and have fun too

BTW, your shaman picture didn´t show in your post, tried to refresh the site but it still didn´t show. Must be a temp prob on the board so I just have to be patience and have a look later.

wilpuri
06-19-2004, 10:16
Great stuff, EC. I suggest the Temple of Perunis would available to all Baltic factions (Not Baltic-Finns), since Perunis was very much a Baltic God.

PseRamesses
06-19-2004, 10:32
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ June 19 2004,03:59)]

Quote[/b] ]I'd very much like to post some information about certain provinces. I won't do that unless I know what provinces there will be for sure. The map I was working on so long ago, I believe it's not valid today. So how's your map coming along PseRamesses? Any chances we can see a sketch of it? Just to know what provinces there will be.

If you read my posts (above) you see how I´m doing on this. I do feel a huge amount of pressure from you guys and due to the probs I´ve been having I feel this is getting quite tideaus. I´ve spent well over 100 hrs in the last month of my spare time to 1. get rid of the viruses, 2. get around the hi-jack of my PC by JK.Biz and 3. when I finally find a way around this prob the trial period of PSP8 expired and I´ve tried three times to install a new trial version but somewhere Jasc has left a marker so it won´t work. First of all, I don´t hold anything back, secondly you guys will be the first to see it when it´s finished and thirdly it won´t finish itself faster just because you are so eager to see it, right

You know the area we´re dealing with for the mod. You also know the preliminary province we´ve drawn up earlier. But the final provinces can´t be settled before we have gone through the whole playarea and for that you don´t need the strat-map I´m making. Meanwhile work with the preliminary provinces we have discussed earlier as they are going to be in the game. Some of them might be reworked or terminated in the end.


Quote[/b] ]But in the meantime, I was thinking about specific Slavic buildings and such:

(* - to be explained/described later)

- Temple of Triglav
a). Preferably for Obodrite and Veletis factions only.
b). Increases Pagan religion (slightly) and zeal (more).
c). Makes possible training of Guard of the Shield*

- Temple of Sviatovit
a). Preferably for all Slavic factions.
b). Increases Pagan religion.
c). Makes possible training of Slavic Priest*
d). When built on Rugen, makes possible training of Riders of Sviatovit

- Temple of Perunis
a). Preferably for eastern slavs, Prussians and perhaps Lithuanians.
b). Increases Pagan religion and zeal.
c). As Perunis was a god of thunder and lightening (pretty much like Scandinavian Odin) this building should generate a title of
Woi Buri Perunisa
loyalty +1
command +1
dread +2
d). This structure should be unique.

- Polana Wiecowa
a). Preferably for all slavic factions.
b). Makes possible training of Emissary (if there will be such)
c). Generates a title of
Stari Wiecowi
loyalty +1
acumen +2

- Gaj
a). Works in the same way as Pagan Shrine in VI.
b). No building requirements.
c). Prerequisite for any Temple building.
d). For all Slavic factions.

- Gniezdo
a). For all Slavic factions.
b). Needs a Fort of some kind to be able to build this structure.
c). Training facility for units.
d). Needs Polana Wiecowa to be built.
e). Generates a title of
Woiewoda
loyalty +2
command +2
dread +2

- - - - -
Guard of the Shield
elite infantry type unit; little armor + helmets; armed with spears; large wooden shields; very good morale; small unit (30-50); strong charge; good defence; 2 ranks; no rank bonus; good attack; fairly expensive; uncontrolled

Slavic Priest
just as any basic religious agent (bishop, orthodox priest etc.)

Riders of Sviatovit
trainable only on Rugen; unit of 40; strong charge; armed with spears; no shields; good morale; good attack; weak defence; fast; uncontrolled; 2 or 3 ranks; fairly good armor

This is great work EC. Wow, with the work Wilpurri is putting down, and now this I can really start to feel the taste on playing this mod. If you feel that the slavic regions needs more specific buildings and such feel free to make suggestions and don´t be shy of being elaborate and creative. Ex: I really like the Finnish/ Baltic hill-fort with a man-high stone wall around it that Wilpurri came up with earlier.

BTW, I still haven´t found a solution to the viking-raider- party-unit we discussed way back. It should work as a crusade where you load units into it. Any ideas?

wilpuri
06-19-2004, 11:23
I added two trade goods to Karelia's list: Rendeer meat and Horses. Believe it or not, horses were bread in Karelia and were sold to places quite far away. This was completely new to me, but I've found an excellent site discussing viking age in the baltic.

This new info gave me the idea for a new unit:

Karelian Horsemen
Karelians bread and exported horses far and wide, along the vast network of rivers in the east. Their horses were small and tough, and could handle themselves well in the demanding terrain. The Karelian horsemen were wealthy members of society, and could afford good weapons. Armed with swords and wooden shields, they are ideal for flanking manouvres and pursuing a fleeing enemy.
-units of 40-50
-good morale
-impeteous

I've also been formulationg a few other unit ideas in my head:

Warband(for Baltic-Finns, Baltics, and maybe slavs as well?)
In viking-age Baltic society, tribal warfare and raiding was not uncommon. Raids would be organized under strong leaders, and adventurous men would join these daring expeditions. Armed with Javelins and axes, they form a flexible and formidable unit. Their morale and loyalty is often questionable though, and if the battle turns sour, they might as well turn tail and run.
-large units, may be 100
-Poor morale
-impeteous
-missiles good vs armour
-bonus vs armour (axes)


Estonian Catapult(only available in late)
The Estonian fought long and hard against the Christian Crusaders, and as a result, developed siege weapons of their own. The Estonian Catapult is very useful when assaulting strongholds, and gives the Estonians the upper hand over their neighbours in that aspect.


Night Raiders(available to Baltics and Baltic-Finns)
The peoples dwelling on the eastern side of the Baltic Sea came often under attack by superior forces, both in number and equipment. This meant that committing forces in an open battle against the invaders would often mean suicide. That's why the Baltic peoples waged guerilla war, and took advantage of their knowledge of their surroundings. Armed with large, heavy armour-pearcing axes, the Night Raiders were a dearing and very useful unit for ambushing the enemy. They wear little armour, and are faster because of it, but also more vulnerable.
-Bonus vs Armoured units
-Good morale
-Fast
-Vulnerable to missiles


Buildings

Shrine of Ukko

Ukko was the Finnish and Estonian god of thunder, the highest ranking god in their pagan faith. Sacrifices could be made in his name and people would often drink to his health. There were many wisemen, who would teach the next generation in the old way, rune-singing and skills in healing.
-Produces Tietäjä
-increases pagan faith + zeal

Pagan Shrine, should be Hiidenkivi for Estonian and Finnish factions.

This Shrine was often declared, not constructed as such. A shaman would see a strangely shaped cliff, formation of trees or stones, and would declare the site sacred. Cup-shaped holes were often carved into the boulders of rock, where a sacrifice could be made. For example, one hoping for a good harvest could pour some goat milk into the cup in the rock, and sacrifice it to Pekko, a God of harvest fertility.
-requires Shrine of Ukko (because shamans are needed to declare)
-increases zeal + pagan faith

VikingHorde
06-19-2004, 19:20
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ June 19 2004,14:06)]Crusade Thing

To be able to launch a crusade (though here it won't be called like this, it would work the same way) there has to be a Pope. This is the first thing that I believe makes it difficult to make it work, because who would be that Pope? One of the Viking factions? What about excommunications then? What about calling for a crusade (so here a plundering raid)?

Second thing is that a crusade can be sent to any infidel region, so not only those at the coast. Though Vikings often raided inland towns and provinces using rivers, a raiding army would proceed very quickly and not like a crusade which can travel for years (and sometimes get stuck somewhere if it have been beaten before).

I see no way to change those hardcodded aspects of a crusade. I see no way to make this raiding army (or whatever it should be called) act the way you'd like to.
I see no good solution to this. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Regards,
EC
Is it possible to modify jehads so that you will get a plundering raid? That way theres no need for a pope. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

VikingHorde
06-19-2004, 20:15
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ June 19 2004,20:48)]Indeed, in case of Jihads, there's no need for having a Pope. But, a Jihad can be sent only to a province a faction sending it once owned. That's why a Jihad is no good for a plundering raid, but rather for a liberating expedition... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
If it was that easy, there wouldn't be so much discussion about it, believe me...

Regards,
EC
Jepp, it's a hard problem to solve. Proberly hard coded, but just a quick thoght. Maybe making a province with no way out/no way in, were you pay the greate sharman for a plundering raid. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

PseRamesses
06-19-2004, 21:00
More wild ideas, just brainstorming;

How about placing Odin as the Pope in the far north, in a locked province, and pay homage to him since only the three viking factions should be able to send a raid?

Using the Jihad as a mold all provinces must then belong to one of the three viking factions at the start. We could thus direct the Novegians to northern Enland and Ireland, the Danes to middle and south England and even north-west France at the Swedes to Finland, the Baltics and Russia. Then on the first turn all the factions will emerge in all related provinces? Could this be done? Can emergances be controlled in this way. I know I saw this in some mod, maybee Two Crowns or the Hundred Year War?

Originally we wanted the Raid-unit to be able to travel without a fleet-line, hit fast (next year) and even reach inland provinces this way. I was thinking about making the rivers sea-squares to and code them as deep sea, making all other sea squares just sea then letting only the vikings have the technology for deep-sea (river) movement. IMO this unique raider-unit is very important and crucial for this mod so it will make both me and Norse happy if we can solve this in a acceptable way.


@EC,
About the pressure I´m feeling regarding the map. Its more the overwhelming frustration that I´m running into all theese problems and its really taking a toll on my patience. I know you all are eager to get on, me too, so don´t think I got annoyed with you, ok?

VikingHorde
06-19-2004, 21:44
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 19 2004,22:00)]More wild ideas, just brainstorming;

How about placing Odin as the Pope in the far north, in a locked province, and pay homage to him since only the three viking factions should be able to send a raid?

Using the Jihad as a mold all provinces must then belong to one of the three viking factions at the start. We could thus direct the Novegians to northern Enland and Ireland, the Danes to middle and south England and even north-west France at the Swedes to Finland, the Baltics and Russia. Then on the first turn all the factions will emerge in all related provinces? Could this be done? Can emergances be controlled in this way. I know I saw this in some mod, maybee Two Crowns or the Hundred Year War?

Originally we wanted the Raid-unit to be able to travel without a fleet-line, hit fast (next year) and even reach inland provinces this way. I was thinking about making the rivers sea-squares to and code them as deep sea, making all other sea squares just sea then letting only the vikings have the technology for deep-sea (river) movement. IMO this unique raider-unit is very important and crucial for this mod so it will make both me and Norse happy if we can solve this in a acceptable way.


@EC,
About the pressure I´m feeling regarding the map. Its more the overwhelming frustration that I´m running into all theese problems and its really taking a toll on my patience. I know you all are eager to get on, me too, so don´t think I got annoyed with you, ok?
It was some fast brainstorming, but could be fun. I will try and edit viking period in VI and see what can be done.

PseRamesses
06-19-2004, 23:08
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ June 19 2004,16:39)]

Quote[/b] ]I've noticed that you can't live without it. This doesn't make it easier to be done though. You can either go for that idea with Odin, or abandon the idea completely (which you obviously won't do). Indecisiveness is no good.

You´re dead wrong EC. I CAN live without it and will drop this idea immediately if its undoable. If you don´t want to take part in the process of finding a possible solution to a, what everyone else seem to think is a great idea, then don´t but don´t call me indecisive - that´s one of the least features of my personality. Just curious, what action of mine do you find indecisive?


Quote[/b] ]Yeah, ok And as I said before, I'm pretty busy with other things apart from this mod, so I wouldn't actually mind having a break here. It's not that I'm all that eager,

Then take a brake. No one´s forcing you to do this. Remember our first objective? To have fun while doing this, and the second? never let this modmaking interfear in our everyday lives, and the third? portray the viking world as accurate as possible.


Quote[/b] ]...just wanted to help get things going.

Well, you didn´t ask me if you could help, you asked me how is the map coming along? which seems to be a common request from you. I´ve also taken messures and actions to inform you guys what´s happening right? In fact the answer to your question was just above in a previous post which Í´ve already pointed out. I also invited you to help me with the map earlier, remember? But you didn´t even reply to that so obviously you weren´t that interested.

Eastside Character
06-20-2004, 09:25
I'm sorry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif

Regards,
EC

PseRamesses
06-20-2004, 10:05
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ June 20 2004,03:25)]I'm sorry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif
...and I´m sorry for being a bit sharp but as I stated earlier this comp.prob I´m having is really frustrating and taking its toll on my patience. As for misunderstandings between friends I´m just that kind of person that will leave no stone unturned, always speak my peace and never hold anything back in an effort to clear things up. Friendship is to valuable to go into an emotional state and create a situation over something that´s really not worth the haggle in the end and I do value you EC

Anyway, I insatlled Adobe PhotoShop 7 today and can continue making the strategic map now, sorry all for the delay. I´ve my girls living with me for the next four weeks and between them and work I might be able to chip in a couple of hours in the evenings and more on weekends.

EC, what is the commandline for putting that clickable link under your avatar? Would be great if we all had it.

wilpuri
06-20-2004, 13:46
I am editing some of the namelists again, and I would like to know if we are going to include surnames for the Baltics and Baltic-Finns? It would be more historically accurate to be without them, and it would be a lot easier as well.. Especially the Baltic names are difficult because I have no idea of their meaning.

PseRamesses
06-20-2004, 18:17
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 20 2004,07:46)]I am editing some of the namelists again, and I would like to know if we are going to include surnames for the Baltics and Baltic-Finns? It would be more historically accurate to be without them, and it would be a lot easier as well..
If it´s historically more accurate to just have the fornames then by all means just use them. I don´t have a prob with it, anyone else?

wilpuri
06-20-2004, 22:31
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 20 2004,12:17)]
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 20 2004,07:46)]I am editing some of the namelists again, and I would like to know if we are going to include surnames for the Baltics and Baltic-Finns? It would be more historically accurate to be without them, and it would be a lot easier as well..
If it´s historically more accurate to just have the fornames then by all means just use them. I don´t have a prob with it, anyone else?
Done. I've been wondering, have you decided who is going to be in N.W Russia? Around Staraya Ladoga, etc? Because Novgorod wasn't founded by the start of the game, so may be a faction called The People of Staraya Ladoga, who later become The people of Novgorod?

PseRamesses
06-21-2004, 16:22
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 20 2004,16:31)]I´ve been wondering, have you decided who is going to be in N.W Russia? Around Staraya Ladoga, etc? Because Novgorod wasn't founded by the start of the game, so may be a faction called The People of Staraya Ladoga, who later become The people of Novgorod?
S.L was an important tradingpost for the vikings so it seems like a good idea Wilpurri. Since there is quite some distance between the location of S.L and Novgorod I was rather thinking of one province each for them. Or maybee we let them start as rebel provinces in the beginning? Do you have a founding year for Novgorod?

wilpuri
06-21-2004, 17:21
Novgorod founded in 862. I suppose they could be a faction on themselves.. Or maybe not. They should have access to both Slavic and Karelian units (not all of course, but some common ones, e.g. Tribesmen, etc).

PseRamesses
06-22-2004, 17:50
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 21 2004,11:21)]Novgorod founded in 862. I suppose they could be a faction on themselves.. Or maybe not. They should have access to both Slavic and Karelian units (not all of course, but some common ones, e.g. Tribesmen, etc).
Hmm, even though she was founded so late I think we should have some russian presence in this area since I´m not shure if we can squeeze in the Rus in Kiev in the south-east corner of the stratmap. I´ll defenitely vote for having the Novgorods around from the start.
Wilpurri, who was there before the Novgorods? Is there any other tribe in that area pre-decessing them?

wilpuri
06-22-2004, 19:03
The Novgorods weren't a tribe per se, but a mixture of Slavic and Finnic tribes. The tribes mentioned in the chronicles are the Tchuds(Finnic), the Merja(Finnic), probably the Vots (Finnic), and various Slavic tribes (can't remember the names). The Slovenes/Ilem Slavs were at least there at the time. This loose confederation of tribes founded the settlement of novgorod as a trading centre, but the Rurik made ita city by building a stronghold there. So yes, it should be there from the very beginning.

PseRamesses
06-22-2004, 19:19
Phui, good I actually thought that we might loose the Rus presence completely. Thanks W

wilpuri
06-23-2004, 11:34
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 22 2004,13:19)]Phui, good I actually thought that we might loose the Rus presence completely. Thanks W
Quick question:
Do you assume the Rus were
a)Scandinavian?
b)Slavic?

PseRamesses
06-23-2004, 16:24
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 23 2004,05:34)]
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 22 2004,13:19)]Phui, good I actually thought that we might loose the Rus presence completely. Thanks W
Quick question:
Do you assume the Rus were
a)Scandinavian?
b)Slavic?
Slavic, with scandinavian influences from around 8-9th century. Why?

wilpuri
06-23-2004, 16:31
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 23 2004,10:24)]
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 23 2004,05:34)]
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 22 2004,13:19)]Phui, good I actually thought that we might loose the Rus presence completely. Thanks W
Quick question:
Do you assume the Rus were
a)Scandinavian?
b)Slavic?
Slavic, with scandinavian influences from around 8-9th century. Why?
So you don't support the theory (Norman theory) that the Rus were a Swedish tribe (From Roslagen, hence the name) that travelled the eastern trade routes, while the rest were busy plundering England? At least MTW says that the Rus spearmen are of scandinavian origin. But I don't think it matters much, if we decide to call the Novgorodians the people of Novgorod, at least in the early period of the game. That may be in late they could be called Rus, and that would be accurate, no matter which theory you support.

PseRamesses
06-23-2004, 16:53
Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ June 23 2004,10:31)]So you don't support the theory (Norman theory) that the Rus were a Swedish tribe (From Roslagen, hence the name) that travelled the eastern trade routes, while the rest were busy plundering England?
Well, I support it partially since the slavic people imported a king from this region and the Rus people from scandinavia had a huge impact on both Novgorod and Kiev which we all know. If the vikings had been powerhungry instead of traders and explorers things might have been different.

Inuyasha12
06-23-2004, 20:04
first i would like to state that this is turning out to be a great mod, i'll be looking foward to some long weekends with it.
Anyways could anyone give a kinda summary on how far you've gotten and where you guys are now?
Also could you give a wild guess on when it might be finished?

Keep at it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Hross af Guttenburg
06-23-2004, 23:22
Odin as an Asatru Pope Wow, great idea You should get excommunicated or 'abondoned by the gods' for cowardly behaviour or something... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
great mod idea...looking forward to it, keep it coming
var hälsad i Fro Ings namn

Hross af Guttenburg
06-23-2004, 23:40
PS- some interesting info on Rurik's legacy here: http://www.peredol.com/stati_eng.html
it includes the lineage of President Bush which apparently can be traced back to Rurik himself.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

I would really like to see special ringborg or Gorodische fortresses in the rivers in Russia, that would be really cool and give a good defensive edge to what would otherwise be an obvious land mass for the great vikings to overrun

Norseman
06-24-2004, 00:13
Hi again. After two busy months I finally have some time the coming days to use on modding.

1) I was hoping that the map would have been worked out by now, so that I could have started doing the txt files. However due to PseRamesses's PC problems that has not been possible, nothing we can do about that, so it's probably time to change our plan a bit.
Instead maybe we can make some of the files in parallell, like begin work on unitprod.txt file, buildingprod.txt file etc. It may turn out to be a bit work to combine all the files in the end, but I guess we need to get some progress now.

The natural question is then if there is anybody else that can handle these txt files here?

Myself I think I will start with the buildingprod.txt file, as I have some ideas I'd like to try.

2) Before we complete the region-discussion we need to make a decision if we want the Frankish factions to have a isolated homeregion, as I argued for in one of my posts on page 6 in this thread. I don't think this is such a controversial idea, as this clearly is something other far better modders have thought about as well, see this link;
Isolated homeregion (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=17364)
Using Komninos idea will suit our mod well I think, and I have tried it out and it worked nicely. Also keep in mind that this will only be inland regions, so as a viking faction you will not be prevented to seize some french or German land and make your own Norman faction.
The drawbacks will be that the Frankish factions will not be available for diplomacy, and that a port may have to appear inside their main homeland region.

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the matter. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

PseRamesses
06-24-2004, 05:07
Quote[/b] (Norseman @ June 23 2004,18:13)]Isolated homeregion (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=17364)
Using Komninos idea will suit our mod well I think, and I have tried it out and it worked nicely. Also keep in mind that this will only be inland regions, so as a viking faction you will not be prevented to seize some french or German land and make your own Norman faction.
Eureka
This will let us be able to use the Pope as Odin, lauch a riding-party with the crusade-unit by paying homage to him.
It will also mean that one can´t conquer the whole map which would represent the viking-style conquests style satisfactory IMO. Great work Norse After two months absence you come charging into the scene like Thor, with thunder and lightning he he

wilpuri
06-24-2004, 11:31
Welcome back Norse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Norseman
06-24-2004, 13:24
Quote[/b] ]
Welcome back Norse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


Quote[/b] ]
Quote (Norseman @ June 23 2004,18:13)
Using Komninos idea will suit our mod well I think, and I have tried it out and it worked nicely. Also keep in mind that this will only be inland regions, so as a viking faction you will not be prevented to seize some french or German land and make your own Norman faction.

Eureka
This will let us be able to use the Pope as Odin, lauch a riding-party with the crusade-unit by paying homage to him.
It will also mean that one can´t conquer the whole map which would represent the viking-style conquests style satisfactory IMO. Great work Norse After two months absence you come charging into the scene like Thor, with thunder and lightning he he


Actually I think we can make a region with no contact to the outer world at all, no port or anything, just an isolated region. Maybe we will have to put a seasquare arround it, but that doesn't matter. I'll put it to the test right now.

No matter what though I think we should use the Odin-idea, it's too good to not give it a try. If it doesn't work out it's quite simple to eliminate the whole thing. We just make the Odin-region like Sahara in MTW, and remove the Crusade from the unitprod file and the Pope-faction.

EDIT: THE ISOLATED REGION THING WORKS. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

VikingHorde
06-24-2004, 16:34
Quote[/b] (Norseman @ June 24 2004,14:24)]Actually I think we can make a region with no contact to the outer world at all, no port or anything, just an isolated region. Maybe we will have to put a seasquare arround it, but that doesn't matter. I'll put it to the test right now.

No matter what though I think we should use the Odin-idea, it's too good to not give it a try. If it doesn't work out it's quite simple to eliminate the whole thing. We just make the Odin-region like Sahara in MTW, and remove the Crusade from the unitprod file and the Pope-faction.

EDIT: THE ISOLATED REGION THING WORKS. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Hi Norseman,Welcome back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Good to see that it works. It could be cool to have a Odin picture, like the pope when he excom ect.

About adding units, it could be done by sending all the unit files in the right places. Only one person can work on one animation at the time and the info for unit crusader file can be sent text file with only one unit. Then all the units should sent to one man who makes the total crusader file. I hope you understand what I mean http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I can do some units, just need a small desciption of the units so that I can chose the right body, to add shields and stuff.