Clans have ruined this game

[Robin Locksly]

Most MTW players are in a clan, I estimate around 70%... how rediculous is that?

I'm extremly pissed off, so pissed off that I am finding it very hard to not type swearwords to express my anger.

The reason clans have ruined this game is by creating the what I call "norm", 10k, high era, flat crappy maps.

Now I find those settings extremly crap and boring, I think most people do too I mean wheres the damm fun in playing on a big flat featureless map? okay it may be fair for both sides but that dosent mean its fun.

Now last year the "norm" florin allowence was 15k which was JUST okay, this year it has reduced to a ridiculous 10k which has been firmly ENGRAVED into the minds of all MTW players... Wheres the fun in having to spend a crappy 10k on an army? theres no room for experimenting and having fun with exotic units with 10k.

I think the number of clans needs to go right down cos this is just plain bloody rediculous, the clans that have buggerd this game up the most is RTK and 7bear7, these 2 clans which I personally hate are the ones with most influence and are also the 2 that have ceated this crappy lame "norm" that has been forcefully engraved into all MTW players. I say forcefully becuase like I said earlier, most MTW players are in a clan so the chaces of getting in the punters for a game with decent florins count and a decent featurfull map is pretty slim. Instead, us poor MTW players must make our games with flat maps, 10k, ohh and make sure its high era http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

RTW is round the corner and I hope to god the ammount of clans goes right down cos I dont think we could stand another TW game with 10k and crappy maps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

I have 2 words for you clans that have buggerd this once, great and exciting game........ **** ***

[Aelwyn]

Being an RTK member myself, I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that we have in any way influenced everyone to change to 10k. Many of us liked the 15k level. Anything higher many people feel makes the game less balanced, and less skillful. The clans are what keep the MP side of this game going, and have since TW has started. You are always welcomed to host your own game with as many florins as you would please. No one will stop you. And you can host a Mountainous map whenever you want. No one is stopping you. To blame all clans for a particular persons lack of enjoyment seems very biased, and lacking of the proper knowledge on the subject. There are many many people who are not in a clan, especially on VI. There are more clans in regular MTW. So, let me know how it is that the Bears and us RTKs have ruined this game. I suspect that you will find with some research that there are more involved clans than us in terms of the changing of "norms".

And, there will not be a reduction of clans for RTW.

[MiniKiller]

lower florin games = higher skill level

playing in a clan is what makes it fun for us. i am not in one now but would love to be. it intriduces u to new people who you get to fight along side in this game.

flat maps, i agree to a point but some people play on hills and always defend, not to fun either.

flat maps also = higher skill level.

Oh and ya good way to make friends man. Dont bash those clans, they imp are 2 very respectful clans who have many great members in them.

Notice how Aelwyn replied to you. He could have been very unkind and blasted u for blasting his clan but he didnt.

Respectful I say.

[Robin Locksly]

Clans keep the game going, err, why is that?

So u think clanless indivduals have created this crappy norm? No its clans tht have dont it, in perticular RTK and 7bear7.

Yes I know I can host whatever game I like, the point is that no one joins games that have anything over 15k and if the map is slighty to exotic such as a big mountain map, people dont join and its only a matter of time untill people wont join any game without it being in high era http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Now becuase most MTW player are in clans and clans only play 10k games, what is the chance of people joing a game when the game is over 15k? Its quite slim, I have tried several times and it either takes ages for the server to fill or it dosent atall.

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (MiniKiller @ Mar. 16 2004,21:59)]lower florin games = higher skill level

playing in a clan is what makes it fun for us. i am not in one now but would love to be. it intriduces u to new people who you get to fight along side in this game.

flat maps, i agree to a point but some people play on hills and always defend, not to fun either.

flat maps also = higher skill level.

Oh and ya good way to make friends man. Dont bash those clans, they imp are 2 very respectful clans who have many great members in them.

Notice how Aelwyn replied to you. He could have been very unkind and blasted u for blasting his clan but he didnt.

Respectful I say.
I agree they r very respectfull clans and I actually like alot of the members in these 2 clans.

When I said "I hate these clans", it was out of anger, I do like the members as people but I am not denying that they have created this lame norm.

[Robin Locksly]

Ok i'm in VI right this moment and there are 5 games up, 4 of them are flatinland# and the other is steppsinland#. All these maps are pretty much featurless, wheres the fun in that?

4 or in high era and 1 is in late era and all 5 have given 10k per-player.

That is the current "norm" in full-action, last year the "norm" was 15k any era but flatinland# or steppsinland# maps so the only thing that has chnged this year is the florin count.

If u think about it, u will understand why I am blaming the clans in MTW.

[ichi]

Congratulations to the Bears and RTK for being named the two most influential clans in MTW.

It's unfortunate that you have ruined the game guys. By forcing people to play at 10K you make us focus on tactics - you have made flanking and team play way too important. No longer can I pump up my units so they will hold 3 or 4 opposing units - heck I cannot even afford to get 6 units of Byz at V4 for less than 20K

What's worse is how you keep people from hosting or even joining high florin games. Look at poor batman, in the lobby constantly spamming people to "mik beg mani geme 75000 99999" poor fellow doesn't know that using are using your mental powers to brainwash poor dumb saps like the Wolves and Fears into playing your game and only your game

Now I see guys trying to play at 9K, or even 7750 florins. The clans dance this ever lower florins game until what? Someday all we will get is 50 florins and a single peasant unit

And steppe We know they are boring. So boring that I can rarley win one due to the emphasis that steppes place on teamwork - steppes require lightning reflexes in order to manuever cavalry - and there's no place to hide

Sure, we at RW tried to sustain the hilly map concept, always attacking uphill on hillyinland30, but now no one will join (well, ok, they still join, but I know they are nervous about it).

You know, if I get any more upset about this I may actually get my manual out and try to figure a way to turn off my firewall so that I can host. But I probably can't find it so I guess I just have to live with.

So I want 3 clans to disband immediately. And no joining other clans I want 20% more ronin out there, and now RTKs are OK but the Bears must go - and those damn Celtis too

Plus, it should be in the rules so at once you play at any florin level you can never play at that level again. That way once a person hosts a 10K game, the next time they could host anything but a 10K game, say a 10500 game. Same with maps- only one game per map then you must delete the map from your folder. This will stimulate more custom map makers.

respectfully (but not as respectfully as Ael)

ichi

[Kongamato]

Wha? Units routing? Protection and manoeuvre having tactical value? HOW CAN U PERMIT THIS I HAT U CLANS YOU RUIN ME GAME

In the event that you're still in your tantrum and will only just skim this post before you tap out another little rebuttal, the entire post is summed up in the red sentence.



What the hell does baby want? All clans to immediately disband and play the type of game that none of them want to play? Better yet, we'll bomb team strategy back to the stone age and have everybody play with strangers so our team battles can be nothing but huge, uncoordinated scrums where random fate, not a team's collective will shall determine victory.

Nobody is forcing you to join clan games. If nobody joins your big money games, blame it on supply and demand. 10-15k games are hosted because there is a demand. People, many of them clan members, like to play those games and consequently they host them. None of them are brainwashed by their leaders or veterans into believing certain things. I know of no clan which is that restrictive.

This community is infected with myths of shadowy elites enslaving the oh so poor ronin players into their belief systems and making all naysayers mysteriously disappear. In reality there are about a dozen or two individuals like AMP, Yuuki, MagyarKhan, and lahll that know the game exceptionally well and work to find a proper amount of money to play at. That happens to be at 10-15k the last time I checked. If you dont like their settings, dont play at them and host your own Maybe you also could do the unthinkable and make your own little clan of like-minded individuals. Perhaps you'll be less lonely and angry then.

[Vexilles]

Id just like to say that im new at multi and all but i really cant c any problem accept no1 likes to play the way you do robin, i mean could it possibly be that every1s playing 10k flat maps because they enjoy them? no of course not, where all being brainwashed by these evil sadistic clans who want nothing more then to force us to play there way. Robin i think the majority of players like the way things are, i think u r unfortunatly 1 of an unhappy minority, i think if u dont like the settings host your own and dont bash clans just because they play a different way then you.

Respectfully Vexilles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Kongamato]

When we all get more civil we might be able to discuss an idea I had where the team's money amounts are set by the map, like 40000D/60000A on a hill assault or something equal on a flatter area. It has potential problems but might help in permitting a little variety.

[Robin Locksly]

Kongamato, you have proved you are very ignorant but you are an American so it is your nature http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Vexiles, dont be so rude, stay out of arguments untill u are out of your newbie stage and have gained enough knowledge on this arugment to be eligable to join in.

Okay, most people who play MTW are in a clan, clans only play 10k games which means the people who like high florin games (25 - 30k) have to rely on the minority to play with.

Now read through my paragraph above this one, then read it again, and again and you'll then see that it makes perfect sense. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[ichi]

I think you owe an apology to both Kongamoto and Vexilles. Your comments to them are quite inappropriate. One of the main rules here is to argue the point, not attack the person. In the process you insulted me, as an American. I find both Vex and Konga to be quite intelligent and capable of throwing in this subject.

I read through your paragraph as you request and the logic is faulty from top to bottom. Many games, including those hosted by clans, can be found at 15K and above, on all types of terrain, including desert. 10k armies are not crappy, they must be well thought out and require skill to use.

ichi

[Seven.the.Hun]

wow, lots a hotsility in this one...must be a touchy topic,
oh well, i know nothing about clans, and i havent been a multiplayer yet, i wouldnt mind giving it a shot though, any suggestions? what's needed to run one? and any more useful clan info out there???

[Robin Locksly]

This is typical of all online-arguments, the opposite party never, ever admits to being convinced.

What I said makes perfect sense, U know it does.

[Alrowan]

hahahaha

Robin, can i call u a jackass???

if u dont like thier settings, dont join, host ur own games. AS for me, i will proudly play my 10k games, and i still experiment, constantly, and i still play whatever maps, all the time. If u want to rip other people, i suggest u do it in the privacy of ur own home. 10k isnt a "norm" its what most players feel is where the game is balanced at. if u want to get more radical, MTW was orriginaly designed with 5k armies in mind, the legacy of STW. I suggest u shut ur trap, and get over it, or go play another game.

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Mar. 17 2004,00:58)]I read through your paragraph as you request and the logic is faulty from top to bottom. Many games, including those hosted by clans, can be found at 15K and above, on all types of terrain, including desert. 10k armies are not crappy, they must be well thought out and require skill to use.
Nope, not true atall.

I am telling you as an MTW player that plays daily that I do not see games that are ever, ever hosted on maps other than speppinland# & flatinland#.

Yes, there are a few but not many atall.

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Mar. 17 2004,02:15)]10k isnt a "norm" its what most players feel is where the game is balanced at.
Correction: It is the result of clan tournemnts and clan competions thats have made its way into genral MTW play via CLANS

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Mar. 17 2004,02:15)]MTW was orriginaly designed with 5k armies in mind, the legacy of STW.
That is BS, total BS.

[Nowake]

So I guess you were there before MTW to speak? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Two words: LOL and GAH (Are those words?)

And besides, that's no topic for the Main Hall. I'm not sure it's a topic at all. ;)

[Duke John]

In MTW1.1 the norm was 15K games. In VI there was a +2 morale bonus. Since most players upgrade to get a decent morale, there was less need of valour and thus we could play with less florins. From then on 10K gradually became the norm, which gave the same morale as 15K in MTW1.1.

[The_Emperor]

When I look at the MTW I don't see 10K High Era Games being the only option... It may be the most popular but its seldom the only option in the games list.

I have joined games that have been set in Early, High, Late and Viking eras... and at very different florin levels. (given I cannot host through my router). So 10K, High era, Steppe is hardly the only option.

I have only recently joined a clan, and I find that the benefits of teamwork and co-operation makes things quite worthwhile, plus it gives you a regular group to join and plan games with... So a lack of players joining because your game isn't a Steppe game isn't as much of an issue because you can compete with your fellow clan members.

And of course if you can't host theres probably someone else in the clan who can.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Robin Locksly @ Mar. 16 2004,22:03)]Yes I know I can host whatever game I like, the point is that no one joins games that have anything over 15k and if the map is slighty to exotic such as a big mountain map, people dont join and its only a matter of time untill people wont join any game without it being in high era http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Now becuase most MTW player are in clans and clans only play 10k games, what is the chance of people joing a game when the game is over 15k? Its quite slim, I have tried several times and it either takes ages for the server to fill or it dosent atall.

I usually host my own games. They are never on steppesinland or flatinland. I like features, like woods and hills. The era is usually early. The florin level is almost never under 15000, sometimes as high as 40000. For some reason I have no problems in getting players to join.

Maybe your settings aren't the reason for the lack of interest. You might want to think about it.

Might I inquire if I presume correctly in thinking you could go by the name of GeneralWellesley in the foyer?

[ShadesWolf]

Gentlemen can we please talk about this sensibly



Robin Locksly an idea, historical battle re-inactment is a good idea to setup a good alround game on a nice unique map.

Why dont you look into a battle, get some info on it, post that in the PMB forum and see if anybody is interested....

[Wishazu]

I agree that lower florins makes the game more tactical, however i would like it if people would occasionally choose to play on more interesting maps, you know like a few hills, a lake and maybe some woods, perhaps even a lil village. it is more fun when you can hide troops in woods to launch a sneaky ambush. the flat maps should definately be used for tourney play as obviously there is no advantage of knowing the map.. its flat so obviously fair. by the way are any clans currently recruiting, i was in Majestic once upon a time, but they disbanded about 2 years ago, since then ive been a drifter and crave the comraderie of a clan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (ShadesWolf @ Mar. 17 2004,07:08)]Gentlemen can we please talk about this sensibly



Robin Locksly an idea, historical battle re-inactment is a good idea to setup a good alround game on a nice unique map.

Why dont you look into a battle, get some info on it, post that in the PMB forum and see if anybody is interested....
eh?

[Vexilles]

Robin ill admit my last reply was a little sarcastic but far from rude, and i thought that i was free to post where ever i was able to, i didnt think that i was unable to post somewhere because as you say im new? I may be new but im not bad and i do have some idea about wat im talking about, also i am american and i found that insult far more greivious then anything ive said.

You said before something about the other argueing party never admits there wrong right? Well that sounds exactly like you because i dont think anyone else here is blaming clans for coming up with the most popular playing style at this time. and please be a bit more civil when responding http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Respectfully Sharpe

[Ludens]

Robin Locksly,
A few weeks ago, you complained that MTW has become "un bloody bearable" (sic) because of the newbies. This because 1: they lacked skill (read: they are newbies) and 2: there are so many of them.

Now the clans are responsible for making the game unfun, by making it impossible to play on anything else than flat, 10K.

:sigh:

MTW is a game. That means that you play it with other people. Those people may prefer to do things in another way than you do. Don't blame them for that.

[CBR]

10k was more or less the standard of 1.0 although there were 7-12k played too. That was the standard of MI expansion and it seems people just switched game but kept the money.

With 1.1 and much better cavalry (and much more obvious swipe bug) plus more expensive upgrades that went up to 15k after some discussion.

In VI we got +2 morale (same increase in morale as 1 valor upgrade) plus with the swipe bug gone a lot of people have gone down to 10k. There was and still is some discussion about this change but 10k 2.01 is the closest thing to 15k 1.1 gameplay.

Why the need for a standard? Well we have tournaments where some standard is needed and people are conservative..just look at the 15k v 10k discussion. Some people actually preferred to stay with 15k so they could keep using same armies as before, although the increased morale and changed cavalry meant gameplay wasnt the same. But that is hardly a surprise when, as I mentioned above, MTW 1.0 got out and people just went on with MI money level http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

When you have a set/standard money level you know what money you have for units and upgrades. And as this game is very much about number crunching it can be annoying and difficult for many people to suddenly have more or less money and decide what to do while in unit selection screen.

So if you can pick between 10k, that you are used to and have several armies for and in general know how they work with certain upgrades, or a 20k game where you suddenly dont know if you should buy same units with just more upgrades and where a low quality V4 unit might suddenly be weak again..well you get the idea.

The developers have on several occasions mentioned that the game was meant for low florins (5k) at equal valor. Unfortunately the morale level is a bit on the low side with quick and sometimes unpredictable chain routs. Missile is also a too expensive giving pure rush armies too much of an advantage. But nonetheless its the florinlevel the designers intended.

But they still gave players the option of buying upgrades, although MTW/VI is much more suited for a gameplay of no upgrades compared to STW with its limited unit choice.

One problem with upgrades is that just because you have the money to give a unit valor 4 doesnt mean its actually worth the money. That doesnt really change much with florin level. Only hybrid archers (like Janissary Infantry) get better and better the more valor you can give them compared to a pure melee unit.

Commonly used units like feudal/chivalric men at arms (FMAA/CMAA) comes in valor 3 and 2 in 10k games and generally have 1 more valor in 15k. Only Miltia Sergeants, at one higher valor than CMAA, comes very close to CMAA. Although you can pump up some exotic unit so it doesnt run doesnt mean its as good as the FMAA/CMAA core units.

Next thing is average unit cost. Having 2000 florin units in a 10k army is simply not a wise choice. Best thing is always to try and make your units of nearly same cost to ensure you have the best power for the money with infantry in general at a bit higher cost than cavalry.

So what does it mean? That in general you dont get more choice just because you have more florins. Sure you have more money for upgrades and you have to click more to buy these upgrades but it doesnt change much except increasing morale so maneuver means less. You can always try exotic units but they will never be good no matter what florin level.


About maps. My personal favorites are the flatinlands as they give a bit of hills and woods without overdoing it. And we have the mappacks that have lots of great maps although its not always easy to fill games but that is an ongoing struggle to get people to download and use these maps. But I do host hillyinlands too and dont have problems filling the games...maybe Im just a popular guy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Clans and tournaments: well to a certain degree yes you are right, clans ruin some of the fun. People want to stick with their clan mates and many games end up being Clan x v group of ronins. Tournaments mean some people get obsessed with them and want to train even more with their clan.

With too many people in clans the overall fun might actually go down a bit: not easy to fill games because there are not many ronins and clans have too many online and wont join a game if they cant get all in. There is just not much to do about that.

When RTW comes out there will most likely, and hopefully, be even more people playing the game. At first there will be many ronins but after some time some of them will have joined a clan or create a new clan. Thats what I experienced in MTW and IMO the golden days of MTW were the early days. And Im a clan whore too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


CBR

[Aelwyn]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Mar. 16 2004,22:36)]Congratulations to the Bears and RTK for being named the two most influential clans in MTW.
Thanks ichi. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif And CBR pretty much summed it all up. The florin level wasn't set because thats what clans want the number to be. It is the number that gives you the opportunity to field more army types and still be able to viably have some missle units. People are always hosting different types of games, at least during my normal hours of play. Maybe its just the time of day you play....could be. And there are other types of games hosted, depending upon what the game is meant for. If it is competitive, you're going to see a fair map for both attackers and defenders...well to a point. If its a fun game, you're going to see varying florin levels, maps, and terrain. And, clan members don't have to play with other members of their clan....they just prefer it. So if you're hosting a game and are having problems getting people to play in it, thats because those who don't, don't want to. Everyone has that choice and no one can bash them for it.

[Fragony]

Clans make multiplayer games more fun I don´t play totalwar anymore (lost interest somehow), but I am a rainbow six addict (if you ever see the name Fragony run, I am the best shot you will never see ;)). It is so much more fun playing with a friendly clan, you know eachothers tactics, making it a true strategy game. More important, rainbow six clans have this ´nice behaviour´ code, just like total war. There are exceptions of course, but most of the time it is pure chivalry

[Chimpyang]

I'm in LORE and alothough we're not one of the highly established clans out there i am glad just to get into a MTW at times, mosto f the time not caring what type of map it is. I've had some very fun games on Steppes maps with the battle going down to the wire but at the same time i have also some enthralling matches on hill-ier maps. The florin count doiesnt matter to me much because I tend to spread Valour and Improvements out amongst my units. Clans don't ruin the game, we just paly how we want. The last battle i had contained members from 4 different clans and the map and floring count was unusal but we stilled palyed togeather and had a fun time. Just remember that not all clan members are the same and that blaming the actions of some on everybody is unfair.

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya sez...

Clans do not make up the norms. They are just groups of friends that like to play together.

The "norm" emerges over time as people learn the game. They discover what unit combinations work out best. The florins evolve in a similar fashion as people gain experience.

People who have played a long time find high florin games to be numbing clickfests that mimic an arcade game. And, as others have said, at lower florins, the best tactics will prevail.

Playas from all over, including those in clans, will congregate in the sandy beaches of The Org to discuss these finer points of MTW and VI. And they will learn from the experiences of others. And so, the norm will evolve. Not in the den of a clan, but by the community as a whole.

But, if youz not likey the games youz see, youz can always host your own, and push your own preferences onto those who join. Most will venture out and take on an odd battle that deviates from the norm just for fun.

Which is what the game is all about anyways.

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine the meaning of success."
-- Vanya

GAH

[solypsist]

wrong forum