Normans/English correct name?

[Krodarg]

I'm just wondering why the English were called the English in the medieval period when they were conquered by the Normans. It seems strange to me for the conqueror to take the name of the conquered. Is this just an inaccuracy of MTW or is there a reason for it?

If they were not in fact called the English, I'm curious to know at what point they became known as such.

Thanks to anyone who sheds some light on this.

[squippy]

There was a sort of movement to reject the Continental heritage of the Normans due to the patrongage they received by the Norman conquerors. Sundry kings then find it politically opportune to pander to this view, especially after the continetal territories are lost.

[Krodarg]

Quote[/b] ]There was a sort of movement to reject the Continental heritage of the Normans due to the patrongage they received by the Norman conquerors.

At about what point did this happen and were they referred to as the Normans or the English in the period depicted in MTW?

Thanks for your help

[squippy]

The English Monarchy was essentially the French line of the counts of Anjou, spoke French, often grew up in France, etc etc, until about...hmm,. 1400's-1500's I'd say without looking it up clearly. (Although the minutes of parliament were transcribed into Norman French and sent to the palace up until only a few years ago).

During the 100 years war, the English kings were claiming the French throne on the basis of descent. When Thomas Beckett was murdered, king Henry at the time was in Normandy and performed his penance for commissioning the deed before the French king.

But against this has to be set rising English nationalism. This is what makes France and England two really distinct monarchic powers: the Frenchness and Englishness lay in the barons more than the royal line. The barons in England were annoyed about favouritism displayed by English/French monarchs to French courtiers, and this was a significant issue in the sundry civil wars for the English throne. There was a sense in England that the baronnage and the monarchy were not entirely aligned, and this culminated in the Magna Carter, in which the rights of the barons were established. Thus, when the hundred years war is actually fought, the English side is much poorer than the French because the thrones ability to raise taxes has been limited.

All of which is to say, then, that it is more or less correct to depict the English possessions as they are in MTW, and to have them as distinct kingdoms. Certainly, the unit commanders and combatants in the English side are really English, and even have the beginnings of a sense of national identity and solidarity. As the intro for the English faction mentions, and as is implied in the GA's, it is really PLANTAGENET claims that the 'English' are defending.

Edit: so the English kingdom is really English/Norman/Aquitanian troops supporting a Plantagenet claim (that name being derived from Geofrey count of Anjou who wore a genet plant in his cap) plus those acquired through his marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine.

[Krodarg]

Quote[/b] ]The English Monarchy was essentially the French line of the counts of Anjou, spoke French, often grew up in France, etc etc, until about...hmm,. 1400's-1500's I'd say without looking it up clearly.

This is the end of the period depicted in the game (it ends in 1453) so wouldn't it be safe to say the English monarchy were still Normans during the game?


Quote[/b] ] This is what makes France and England two really distinct monarchic powers: the Frenchness and Englishness lay in the barons more than the royal line.

I'm a bit confused by this as I was under the impression the Norman monarchs gave land to their own and thus wouldn't the Barons be Normans as well?


Quote[/b] ]All of which is to say, then, that it is more or less correct to depict the English possessions as they are in MTW, and to have them as distinct kingdoms.

I'm not disagreeing with this at all, I think the French and English should be separate factions. I'm merely suggesting the English faction as depicted in the game should be renamed the Normans.

Thanks for trying to clear this up and providing all that information :)

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (Krodarg @ Mar. 18 2004,07:03)]

Quote[/b] ] This is the end of the period depicted in the game (it ends in 1453) so wouldn't it be safe to say the English monarchy were still Normans during the game?

;) Yes except for the periods in which they had the descendants of the last Saxon king on the throne. But certainly, these people (senior aristos) did not think of themselves as 'English', they thought of themselves as Normans. This only really ended when Normandy was lost.

Here's the problem: William the Conqueror held Normandy from the king of France and did homage for it. But he conquored England, which was a throne in its own right, by main force on his own, not as a vassal of the French king. So - is he still a baron, or a king? Well, seeing as he was recognised by the Pope, and did homage to the pope for his throne, hes a king who holds Normandy not in his own right, but as a vassal of the French king.

In MTW, the French would claim that they are both really French facitons, and the English or 'English' would claim there are a kingdom in their own right.


Quote[/b] ] I'm a bit confused by this as I was under the impression the Norman monarchs gave land to their own and thus wouldn't the Barons be Normans as well?

Most were in the immediate post-conquest period. Many Norman lords acquired lands in England, or later Wales and France. But this provoked some resistance from the local Saxons, and so some Saxon Big Men also became Williams vassals and legitimate lords, by way of appeasing the locals.

But later, when the actual Norman dynasty of William was replaced by the Angevin dynasty of Geoffrey, the beneficiaries were minor nobles from families from Blois, Berry and Anjou, rather than from Normandy specifically. Also, Eleanor of Aquitaine bestowed benefices on people from Gascony and Aquitaine.


Quote[/b] ] I'm not disagreeing with this at all, I think the French and English should be separate factions. I'm merely suggesting the English faction as depicted in the game should be renamed the Normans.

Not exactly... I'd have to look up the details, but by very shortly in the game period, they are really an Angevin/Plantagenet dynasty, not a Norman one, and could claim the King of Jerusalem in its lineage (Fulk of Anjou).

In fact, in game terms, the English faction should go through about 4 collapses and civil wars. When that sort of dynamic is taken into account, the game is quite realistic.

[Krodarg]

Man, I'm English and I didn't know half of this stuff - I'd never even heard of the Angevins .

So, I looked them up on the net and if I understand correctly, the name "English" was chosen for the game because the faction changed hands so many times they needed a term that could refer to all of them. That about right?

Anyway, thanks again for your help http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Hurin_Rules]

Well, you're close, but not exactly. There had been a kingdom of England before 1066-- by the latter part of the 10th century there were kings of the Anglo-Saxons who ruled the whole realm. Although conquered by William in 1066, this kingdom remained intact as a separate entity-- separate in the sense that William and his successors did not weld England into a common empire with common law and customs. All they did was add "King of the Angles" to their titles. The kingdom itself remained a separate entity, conceptually, legally and in terms of its administration. So it makes sense to speak of a separate kingdom of the English, even when England is but one province of the Angevin Empire. Also, the Norman and Angevin nobility intermarried with the native population to create a new noble class that was neither wholly English nor wholly French. After the loss of the north French possessions in 1204, England started to get more 'English', such that by the early 14th century the language of the court started to revert to English.

So, it makes sense to have a kingdom of England and an English faction.

[Krodarg]

Quote[/b] ]The kingdom itself remained a separate entity, conceptually, legally and in terms of its administration. So it makes sense to speak of a separate kingdom of the English, even when England is but one province of the Angevin Empire.

Although there was an English kingdom, as you say it was part of the Angevin Empire which is the faction represented by the English in the game. It would make no sense to have the Kingdom of England as a separate faction from the rest of the Angevin Empire.

Basically, I'm trying to discover the reason behind the decision to call the faction in the game the English. From what I gather they did this as it would be more trouble than it's worth to create the Normans, the Angevins and the English so they are all referred to as the English as a whole.

That's my theory anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (Krodarg @ Mar. 18 2004,13:26)]
Quote[/b] ]
Basically, I'm trying to discover the reason behind the decision to call the faction in the game the English. From what I gather they did this as it would be more trouble than it's worth to create the Normans, the Angevins and the English so they are all referred to as the English as a whole.
Agreed. but on the other hand, a Viking Invasion style mini-campaign set in France and England, and using the French counts as factions, could make a really cool 'formation of france' game. It was a long hard slog before the monarchy consolidate its power. Plus interference form the HRE and Burgundy... hmm, juicy...

[Highlander X]

I think it's pretty self explainitory why it's called the English faction.
When William conquered England was known as Roi d'Angleterre, anglosize that to King of England.
True, Norman nobles didn't think themselves bonafide English until the Hundred Years War ingrained it into them, and you could call it the 'Angevin Empire' for a period in time.
But i think calling it 'England' seems pretty accurate when spanned across the whole medieval period.

imo

[Plantagenet]

The Normans & Angevins identified themselves as "English" because as Dukes of Normandy or Counts of Anjou, they were vassals of the French King, but as Kings of England, they were his equals. England was thus the source of their Crown and the sole reason they were peers of the other Kings of Europe. Also, the Norman/Angevin dynasty retained England after the loss of Normandy & Anjou deprived them of their ancestral homelands (1204).

The Normans adapted the culture, government/legal systems, and forms of warfare of their subject peoples wherever they went. They also inter-married with conquered races to acquire legitimacy in their subjects' eyes. Thus, those that ruled England are referred to as "Anglo-Normans", those that penetrated Wales "Cambro-Normans", those in Ireland, "Hiberno-Normans", and those in Southern Italy "Italo-Normans".

Technically, the Anglo-Norman "empire" only lasted from 1066-1154, when Henry II founded the "Angevin Empire". However, his mother was a Norman and his claim to England stemmed from her, not his Angevin father. Normandy remained the political & military center of his and his heirs' (Richard I & John) continental domains. However, all of Henry's important political/legal advancements took place in England, and it was English money and troops that made it possible to create and hold together his "empire".

With the loss of all the French lands except parts of Aquitaine/Gascony (1204), the Plantagenets finally became an "English" dynasty and turned their attention to British affairs, such as the development of Parliament and the conquest of Wales (1277-1282) & Scotland (1286-). Henry III (1216-1272) was the first Norman/Angevin King to give his sons English names (Edward & Edmund), and his son Edward I was the first to make his son Prince of Wales (previously, the eldest son was always made Duke of Normandy).

As far as MTW goes, you can't call it the "Norman" or "Angevin" empire/faction after 1204. This is probably why they chose "English", and also why historians only call Henry II, Richard I, & John I the "Angevins", while calling Henry III and all Kings after him the "Plantagenets".

[Accounting Troll]

My two pennies on this issue:

William the Conqueror had based his claim on the English throne by his marriage connection to the English Royal Family, a claim that he said that the powerful Harold Godwinson supported. When war broke out after Harold claimed the throne, most English people at the time regarded this as a civil war between rival claimants for the throne, which is why the citizens of London accepted him as king after his rivals had died at Stamford Bridge and Hastings. This seemed like a repeat of King Canute who had proved to be a capable ruler with a great deal of respect for English institutions, also Edward the Confessor had a large number of Norman favourites.

Although Normandy was technically ruled by France, in practice most French dukedoms were independant kingdoms in their own right, and only nominally part of the Kingdom of France.

The English only grew resentful of the Normans once William the Conqueror started replacing the Anglo-Saxon nobility with fellow Normans, raising taxes to pay for all the castle building (castles were introduced by the Normans and hated by the English who saw them as an instrument of opression rather than a useful tool for defence) and destroying the local government snd justice system. Unfortunatly, the Anglo-Saxon nobles who led the rebellions of 1068-9 were more interested in receiving compensation for their confiscated estates rather than liberating their nation, and several including the famous Hereward the Wake were simply brought off.

Henry II, son of Matilda and the Count of Anjou (hence Angevin)began the process of uniting the English and Normans in England when he based much of his new legal system on the legal system used by the Anglo-Saxons. The process was helped by the fact that being King of England had more prestige than mere Duke of Normandy, and the Normans had already abandoned their Viking language and culture and adopted the ways of the French.

Incidentally, the Welsh at that time regarded the English as being under the rukle of a French aristocracy - a Welsh chronicler recording an incident in 1175 when the Norman lord at Abergavenny Castle invited some local Welsh nobles to dinner and then had them massacred reported that no Welshman ever trusted the word of a Frenchman again.

[Suppiluliumas]

...All this is well reflected by the fact that English kings are given Norman names in the game, as are the nobility (generals). I see no historical conflict as far as the English are concerned.

[BDC]

I feel so oppressed.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Sjakihata]

Go start a revolution then

[BDC]

Quote[/b] (Sjakihata @ April 19 2004,15:59)]Go start a revolution then
Too lazy.

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