Clans have ruined this game

[Robin Locksly]

Most MTW players are in a clan, I estimate around 70%... how rediculous is that?

I'm extremly pissed off, so pissed off that I am finding it very hard to not type swearwords to express my anger.

The reason clans have ruined this game is by creating the what I call "norm", 10k, high era, flat crappy maps.

Now I find those settings extremly crap and boring, I think most people do too I mean wheres the damm fun in playing on a big flat featureless map? okay it may be fair for both sides but that dosent mean its fun.

Now last year the "norm" florin allowence was 15k which was JUST okay, this year it has reduced to a ridiculous 10k which has been firmly ENGRAVED into the minds of all MTW players... Wheres the fun in having to spend a crappy 10k on an army? theres no room for experimenting and having fun with exotic units with 10k.

I think the number of clans needs to go right down cos this is just plain bloody rediculous, the clans that have buggerd this game up the most is RTK and 7bear7, these 2 clans which I personally hate are the ones with most influence and are also the 2 that have ceated this crappy lame "norm" that has been forcefully engraved into all MTW players. I say forcefully becuase like I said earlier, most MTW players are in a clan so the chaces of getting in the punters for a game with decent florins count and a decent featurfull map is pretty slim. Instead, us poor MTW players must make our games with flat maps, 10k, ohh and make sure its high era http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

RTW is round the corner and I hope to god the ammount of clans goes right down cos I dont think we could stand another TW game with 10k and crappy maps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

I have 2 words for you clans that have buggerd this once, great and exciting game........ **** ***

[Aelwyn]

Being an RTK member myself, I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that we have in any way influenced everyone to change to 10k. Many of us liked the 15k level. Anything higher many people feel makes the game less balanced, and less skillful. The clans are what keep the MP side of this game going, and have since TW has started. You are always welcomed to host your own game with as many florins as you would please. No one will stop you. And you can host a Mountainous map whenever you want. No one is stopping you. To blame all clans for a particular persons lack of enjoyment seems very biased, and lacking of the proper knowledge on the subject. There are many many people who are not in a clan, especially on VI. There are more clans in regular MTW. So, let me know how it is that the Bears and us RTKs have ruined this game. I suspect that you will find with some research that there are more involved clans than us in terms of the changing of "norms".

And, there will not be a reduction of clans for RTW.

[MiniKiller]

lower florin games = higher skill level

playing in a clan is what makes it fun for us. i am not in one now but would love to be. it intriduces u to new people who you get to fight along side in this game.

flat maps, i agree to a point but some people play on hills and always defend, not to fun either.

flat maps also = higher skill level.

Oh and ya good way to make friends man. Dont bash those clans, they imp are 2 very respectful clans who have many great members in them.

Notice how Aelwyn replied to you. He could have been very unkind and blasted u for blasting his clan but he didnt.

Respectful I say.

[Robin Locksly]

Clans keep the game going, err, why is that?

So u think clanless indivduals have created this crappy norm? No its clans tht have dont it, in perticular RTK and 7bear7.

Yes I know I can host whatever game I like, the point is that no one joins games that have anything over 15k and if the map is slighty to exotic such as a big mountain map, people dont join and its only a matter of time untill people wont join any game without it being in high era http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Now becuase most MTW player are in clans and clans only play 10k games, what is the chance of people joing a game when the game is over 15k? Its quite slim, I have tried several times and it either takes ages for the server to fill or it dosent atall.

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (MiniKiller @ Mar. 16 2004,21:59)]lower florin games = higher skill level

playing in a clan is what makes it fun for us. i am not in one now but would love to be. it intriduces u to new people who you get to fight along side in this game.

flat maps, i agree to a point but some people play on hills and always defend, not to fun either.

flat maps also = higher skill level.

Oh and ya good way to make friends man. Dont bash those clans, they imp are 2 very respectful clans who have many great members in them.

Notice how Aelwyn replied to you. He could have been very unkind and blasted u for blasting his clan but he didnt.

Respectful I say.
I agree they r very respectfull clans and I actually like alot of the members in these 2 clans.

When I said "I hate these clans", it was out of anger, I do like the members as people but I am not denying that they have created this lame norm.

[Robin Locksly]

Ok i'm in VI right this moment and there are 5 games up, 4 of them are flatinland# and the other is steppsinland#. All these maps are pretty much featurless, wheres the fun in that?

4 or in high era and 1 is in late era and all 5 have given 10k per-player.

That is the current "norm" in full-action, last year the "norm" was 15k any era but flatinland# or steppsinland# maps so the only thing that has chnged this year is the florin count.

If u think about it, u will understand why I am blaming the clans in MTW.

[ichi]

Congratulations to the Bears and RTK for being named the two most influential clans in MTW.

It's unfortunate that you have ruined the game guys. By forcing people to play at 10K you make us focus on tactics - you have made flanking and team play way too important. No longer can I pump up my units so they will hold 3 or 4 opposing units - heck I cannot even afford to get 6 units of Byz at V4 for less than 20K

What's worse is how you keep people from hosting or even joining high florin games. Look at poor batman, in the lobby constantly spamming people to "mik beg mani geme 75000 99999" poor fellow doesn't know that using are using your mental powers to brainwash poor dumb saps like the Wolves and Fears into playing your game and only your game

Now I see guys trying to play at 9K, or even 7750 florins. The clans dance this ever lower florins game until what? Someday all we will get is 50 florins and a single peasant unit

And steppe We know they are boring. So boring that I can rarley win one due to the emphasis that steppes place on teamwork - steppes require lightning reflexes in order to manuever cavalry - and there's no place to hide

Sure, we at RW tried to sustain the hilly map concept, always attacking uphill on hillyinland30, but now no one will join (well, ok, they still join, but I know they are nervous about it).

You know, if I get any more upset about this I may actually get my manual out and try to figure a way to turn off my firewall so that I can host. But I probably can't find it so I guess I just have to live with.

So I want 3 clans to disband immediately. And no joining other clans I want 20% more ronin out there, and now RTKs are OK but the Bears must go - and those damn Celtis too

Plus, it should be in the rules so at once you play at any florin level you can never play at that level again. That way once a person hosts a 10K game, the next time they could host anything but a 10K game, say a 10500 game. Same with maps- only one game per map then you must delete the map from your folder. This will stimulate more custom map makers.

respectfully (but not as respectfully as Ael)

ichi

[Kongamato]

Wha? Units routing? Protection and manoeuvre having tactical value? HOW CAN U PERMIT THIS I HAT U CLANS YOU RUIN ME GAME

In the event that you're still in your tantrum and will only just skim this post before you tap out another little rebuttal, the entire post is summed up in the red sentence.



What the hell does baby want? All clans to immediately disband and play the type of game that none of them want to play? Better yet, we'll bomb team strategy back to the stone age and have everybody play with strangers so our team battles can be nothing but huge, uncoordinated scrums where random fate, not a team's collective will shall determine victory.

Nobody is forcing you to join clan games. If nobody joins your big money games, blame it on supply and demand. 10-15k games are hosted because there is a demand. People, many of them clan members, like to play those games and consequently they host them. None of them are brainwashed by their leaders or veterans into believing certain things. I know of no clan which is that restrictive.

This community is infected with myths of shadowy elites enslaving the oh so poor ronin players into their belief systems and making all naysayers mysteriously disappear. In reality there are about a dozen or two individuals like AMP, Yuuki, MagyarKhan, and lahll that know the game exceptionally well and work to find a proper amount of money to play at. That happens to be at 10-15k the last time I checked. If you dont like their settings, dont play at them and host your own Maybe you also could do the unthinkable and make your own little clan of like-minded individuals. Perhaps you'll be less lonely and angry then.

[Vexilles]

Id just like to say that im new at multi and all but i really cant c any problem accept no1 likes to play the way you do robin, i mean could it possibly be that every1s playing 10k flat maps because they enjoy them? no of course not, where all being brainwashed by these evil sadistic clans who want nothing more then to force us to play there way. Robin i think the majority of players like the way things are, i think u r unfortunatly 1 of an unhappy minority, i think if u dont like the settings host your own and dont bash clans just because they play a different way then you.

Respectfully Vexilles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Kongamato]

When we all get more civil we might be able to discuss an idea I had where the team's money amounts are set by the map, like 40000D/60000A on a hill assault or something equal on a flatter area. It has potential problems but might help in permitting a little variety.

[Robin Locksly]

Kongamato, you have proved you are very ignorant but you are an American so it is your nature http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Vexiles, dont be so rude, stay out of arguments untill u are out of your newbie stage and have gained enough knowledge on this arugment to be eligable to join in.

Okay, most people who play MTW are in a clan, clans only play 10k games which means the people who like high florin games (25 - 30k) have to rely on the minority to play with.

Now read through my paragraph above this one, then read it again, and again and you'll then see that it makes perfect sense. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[ichi]

I think you owe an apology to both Kongamoto and Vexilles. Your comments to them are quite inappropriate. One of the main rules here is to argue the point, not attack the person. In the process you insulted me, as an American. I find both Vex and Konga to be quite intelligent and capable of throwing in this subject.

I read through your paragraph as you request and the logic is faulty from top to bottom. Many games, including those hosted by clans, can be found at 15K and above, on all types of terrain, including desert. 10k armies are not crappy, they must be well thought out and require skill to use.

ichi

[Seven.the.Hun]

wow, lots a hotsility in this one...must be a touchy topic,
oh well, i know nothing about clans, and i havent been a multiplayer yet, i wouldnt mind giving it a shot though, any suggestions? what's needed to run one? and any more useful clan info out there???

[Robin Locksly]

This is typical of all online-arguments, the opposite party never, ever admits to being convinced.

What I said makes perfect sense, U know it does.

[Alrowan]

hahahaha

Robin, can i call u a jackass???

if u dont like thier settings, dont join, host ur own games. AS for me, i will proudly play my 10k games, and i still experiment, constantly, and i still play whatever maps, all the time. If u want to rip other people, i suggest u do it in the privacy of ur own home. 10k isnt a "norm" its what most players feel is where the game is balanced at. if u want to get more radical, MTW was orriginaly designed with 5k armies in mind, the legacy of STW. I suggest u shut ur trap, and get over it, or go play another game.

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Mar. 17 2004,00:58)]I read through your paragraph as you request and the logic is faulty from top to bottom. Many games, including those hosted by clans, can be found at 15K and above, on all types of terrain, including desert. 10k armies are not crappy, they must be well thought out and require skill to use.
Nope, not true atall.

I am telling you as an MTW player that plays daily that I do not see games that are ever, ever hosted on maps other than speppinland# & flatinland#.

Yes, there are a few but not many atall.

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Mar. 17 2004,02:15)]10k isnt a "norm" its what most players feel is where the game is balanced at.
Correction: It is the result of clan tournemnts and clan competions thats have made its way into genral MTW play via CLANS

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Mar. 17 2004,02:15)]MTW was orriginaly designed with 5k armies in mind, the legacy of STW.
That is BS, total BS.

[Nowake]

So I guess you were there before MTW to speak? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Two words: LOL and GAH (Are those words?)

And besides, that's no topic for the Main Hall. I'm not sure it's a topic at all. ;)

[Duke John]

In MTW1.1 the norm was 15K games. In VI there was a +2 morale bonus. Since most players upgrade to get a decent morale, there was less need of valour and thus we could play with less florins. From then on 10K gradually became the norm, which gave the same morale as 15K in MTW1.1.

[The_Emperor]

When I look at the MTW I don't see 10K High Era Games being the only option... It may be the most popular but its seldom the only option in the games list.

I have joined games that have been set in Early, High, Late and Viking eras... and at very different florin levels. (given I cannot host through my router). So 10K, High era, Steppe is hardly the only option.

I have only recently joined a clan, and I find that the benefits of teamwork and co-operation makes things quite worthwhile, plus it gives you a regular group to join and plan games with... So a lack of players joining because your game isn't a Steppe game isn't as much of an issue because you can compete with your fellow clan members.

And of course if you can't host theres probably someone else in the clan who can.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Robin Locksly @ Mar. 16 2004,22:03)]Yes I know I can host whatever game I like, the point is that no one joins games that have anything over 15k and if the map is slighty to exotic such as a big mountain map, people dont join and its only a matter of time untill people wont join any game without it being in high era http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Now becuase most MTW player are in clans and clans only play 10k games, what is the chance of people joing a game when the game is over 15k? Its quite slim, I have tried several times and it either takes ages for the server to fill or it dosent atall.

I usually host my own games. They are never on steppesinland or flatinland. I like features, like woods and hills. The era is usually early. The florin level is almost never under 15000, sometimes as high as 40000. For some reason I have no problems in getting players to join.

Maybe your settings aren't the reason for the lack of interest. You might want to think about it.

Might I inquire if I presume correctly in thinking you could go by the name of GeneralWellesley in the foyer?

[ShadesWolf]

Gentlemen can we please talk about this sensibly



Robin Locksly an idea, historical battle re-inactment is a good idea to setup a good alround game on a nice unique map.

Why dont you look into a battle, get some info on it, post that in the PMB forum and see if anybody is interested....

[Wishazu]

I agree that lower florins makes the game more tactical, however i would like it if people would occasionally choose to play on more interesting maps, you know like a few hills, a lake and maybe some woods, perhaps even a lil village. it is more fun when you can hide troops in woods to launch a sneaky ambush. the flat maps should definately be used for tourney play as obviously there is no advantage of knowing the map.. its flat so obviously fair. by the way are any clans currently recruiting, i was in Majestic once upon a time, but they disbanded about 2 years ago, since then ive been a drifter and crave the comraderie of a clan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (ShadesWolf @ Mar. 17 2004,07:08)]Gentlemen can we please talk about this sensibly



Robin Locksly an idea, historical battle re-inactment is a good idea to setup a good alround game on a nice unique map.

Why dont you look into a battle, get some info on it, post that in the PMB forum and see if anybody is interested....
eh?

[Vexilles]

Robin ill admit my last reply was a little sarcastic but far from rude, and i thought that i was free to post where ever i was able to, i didnt think that i was unable to post somewhere because as you say im new? I may be new but im not bad and i do have some idea about wat im talking about, also i am american and i found that insult far more greivious then anything ive said.

You said before something about the other argueing party never admits there wrong right? Well that sounds exactly like you because i dont think anyone else here is blaming clans for coming up with the most popular playing style at this time. and please be a bit more civil when responding http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Respectfully Sharpe

[Ludens]

Robin Locksly,
A few weeks ago, you complained that MTW has become "un bloody bearable" (sic) because of the newbies. This because 1: they lacked skill (read: they are newbies) and 2: there are so many of them.

Now the clans are responsible for making the game unfun, by making it impossible to play on anything else than flat, 10K.

:sigh:

MTW is a game. That means that you play it with other people. Those people may prefer to do things in another way than you do. Don't blame them for that.

[CBR]

10k was more or less the standard of 1.0 although there were 7-12k played too. That was the standard of MI expansion and it seems people just switched game but kept the money.

With 1.1 and much better cavalry (and much more obvious swipe bug) plus more expensive upgrades that went up to 15k after some discussion.

In VI we got +2 morale (same increase in morale as 1 valor upgrade) plus with the swipe bug gone a lot of people have gone down to 10k. There was and still is some discussion about this change but 10k 2.01 is the closest thing to 15k 1.1 gameplay.

Why the need for a standard? Well we have tournaments where some standard is needed and people are conservative..just look at the 15k v 10k discussion. Some people actually preferred to stay with 15k so they could keep using same armies as before, although the increased morale and changed cavalry meant gameplay wasnt the same. But that is hardly a surprise when, as I mentioned above, MTW 1.0 got out and people just went on with MI money level http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

When you have a set/standard money level you know what money you have for units and upgrades. And as this game is very much about number crunching it can be annoying and difficult for many people to suddenly have more or less money and decide what to do while in unit selection screen.

So if you can pick between 10k, that you are used to and have several armies for and in general know how they work with certain upgrades, or a 20k game where you suddenly dont know if you should buy same units with just more upgrades and where a low quality V4 unit might suddenly be weak again..well you get the idea.

The developers have on several occasions mentioned that the game was meant for low florins (5k) at equal valor. Unfortunately the morale level is a bit on the low side with quick and sometimes unpredictable chain routs. Missile is also a too expensive giving pure rush armies too much of an advantage. But nonetheless its the florinlevel the designers intended.

But they still gave players the option of buying upgrades, although MTW/VI is much more suited for a gameplay of no upgrades compared to STW with its limited unit choice.

One problem with upgrades is that just because you have the money to give a unit valor 4 doesnt mean its actually worth the money. That doesnt really change much with florin level. Only hybrid archers (like Janissary Infantry) get better and better the more valor you can give them compared to a pure melee unit.

Commonly used units like feudal/chivalric men at arms (FMAA/CMAA) comes in valor 3 and 2 in 10k games and generally have 1 more valor in 15k. Only Miltia Sergeants, at one higher valor than CMAA, comes very close to CMAA. Although you can pump up some exotic unit so it doesnt run doesnt mean its as good as the FMAA/CMAA core units.

Next thing is average unit cost. Having 2000 florin units in a 10k army is simply not a wise choice. Best thing is always to try and make your units of nearly same cost to ensure you have the best power for the money with infantry in general at a bit higher cost than cavalry.

So what does it mean? That in general you dont get more choice just because you have more florins. Sure you have more money for upgrades and you have to click more to buy these upgrades but it doesnt change much except increasing morale so maneuver means less. You can always try exotic units but they will never be good no matter what florin level.


About maps. My personal favorites are the flatinlands as they give a bit of hills and woods without overdoing it. And we have the mappacks that have lots of great maps although its not always easy to fill games but that is an ongoing struggle to get people to download and use these maps. But I do host hillyinlands too and dont have problems filling the games...maybe Im just a popular guy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Clans and tournaments: well to a certain degree yes you are right, clans ruin some of the fun. People want to stick with their clan mates and many games end up being Clan x v group of ronins. Tournaments mean some people get obsessed with them and want to train even more with their clan.

With too many people in clans the overall fun might actually go down a bit: not easy to fill games because there are not many ronins and clans have too many online and wont join a game if they cant get all in. There is just not much to do about that.

When RTW comes out there will most likely, and hopefully, be even more people playing the game. At first there will be many ronins but after some time some of them will have joined a clan or create a new clan. Thats what I experienced in MTW and IMO the golden days of MTW were the early days. And Im a clan whore too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


CBR

[Aelwyn]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Mar. 16 2004,22:36)]Congratulations to the Bears and RTK for being named the two most influential clans in MTW.
Thanks ichi. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif And CBR pretty much summed it all up. The florin level wasn't set because thats what clans want the number to be. It is the number that gives you the opportunity to field more army types and still be able to viably have some missle units. People are always hosting different types of games, at least during my normal hours of play. Maybe its just the time of day you play....could be. And there are other types of games hosted, depending upon what the game is meant for. If it is competitive, you're going to see a fair map for both attackers and defenders...well to a point. If its a fun game, you're going to see varying florin levels, maps, and terrain. And, clan members don't have to play with other members of their clan....they just prefer it. So if you're hosting a game and are having problems getting people to play in it, thats because those who don't, don't want to. Everyone has that choice and no one can bash them for it.

[Fragony]

Clans make multiplayer games more fun I don´t play totalwar anymore (lost interest somehow), but I am a rainbow six addict (if you ever see the name Fragony run, I am the best shot you will never see ;)). It is so much more fun playing with a friendly clan, you know eachothers tactics, making it a true strategy game. More important, rainbow six clans have this ´nice behaviour´ code, just like total war. There are exceptions of course, but most of the time it is pure chivalry

[Chimpyang]

I'm in LORE and alothough we're not one of the highly established clans out there i am glad just to get into a MTW at times, mosto f the time not caring what type of map it is. I've had some very fun games on Steppes maps with the battle going down to the wire but at the same time i have also some enthralling matches on hill-ier maps. The florin count doiesnt matter to me much because I tend to spread Valour and Improvements out amongst my units. Clans don't ruin the game, we just paly how we want. The last battle i had contained members from 4 different clans and the map and floring count was unusal but we stilled palyed togeather and had a fun time. Just remember that not all clan members are the same and that blaming the actions of some on everybody is unfair.

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya sez...

Clans do not make up the norms. They are just groups of friends that like to play together.

The "norm" emerges over time as people learn the game. They discover what unit combinations work out best. The florins evolve in a similar fashion as people gain experience.

People who have played a long time find high florin games to be numbing clickfests that mimic an arcade game. And, as others have said, at lower florins, the best tactics will prevail.

Playas from all over, including those in clans, will congregate in the sandy beaches of The Org to discuss these finer points of MTW and VI. And they will learn from the experiences of others. And so, the norm will evolve. Not in the den of a clan, but by the community as a whole.

But, if youz not likey the games youz see, youz can always host your own, and push your own preferences onto those who join. Most will venture out and take on an odd battle that deviates from the norm just for fun.

Which is what the game is all about anyways.

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine the meaning of success."
-- Vanya

GAH

[solypsist]

wrong forum

[TosaInu]

This topic doesn't belong in the Main Hall. The topic didn't start too well and I scanned some less encouraging bits.

It's moved here and opened on request. I really do hope that it can stay open and I would really appreciate it if each moderator (that means ANYONE who posted in this topic) checks his/her own post(s) and verifies whether there are less charming bits. Please edit and update your post if necessary.

Thanks.

[Dionysus9]

:sighs:

Hey Robin do you have the latest mappack? How about the Community Mod? If not then you are contributing to the "sameness" of MTW games.

Customize your maps and eras (mods) and you will find a lot more variety out there.

[t1master]

hehe look how many fish he got, with such poor bait too... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Nikodil]

Robin,

If you haven't been there yet, go and visit www.totalwars.net. It has focus on the MP part of Total War, and I think you will find many interesting discussions on these kind of things.

[Simovek]

I partially agree with what the original poster has to say.
For me, Ironing board maps are not fun. Thats not to say I haven't had some very fun games on ironing boards but for the most part I find them dull and boring.
I also don't really like 10k games because I am not a very good player so 10k limits me. I don't know how to effectivly use a 10k army.
Clans also can tick me off at times. It is just annoying sometimes going 3vs3, 3 lonewolf vs 3 clan members. Even if the clan is attacking they normally win easy. This has alot to do with me not being a very good player though, me against a clan member is really no contest. Of course there have been a few times where we have given them a run for their money.
I also have to agree with him that for the most part the only games I see are 10k, ironing board 3vs3 clan vs loners, high era. My personal preference is Viking era games, MTW has to many choices for units and I like to have a more simple unit selection, which Viking era gives. However there are barely any Viking era games whenever I am on.
I don't agree that Clans are evil and the downfall of the game. I don't think it is the clans fault that 10k ironing board is the standard map configuration. Thats what the majority has accepted so thats the way it is. Throwing out ridiculous accusations at clans is foolish. I think that money around 10k has been the normal since STW online if I remember correctly. Also your insults are out of line I think. I don't see how it is American nature to be ignorant. Everyone has their ignorants, just as every other country.
I would like to see some more variety in the types of games being hosted. I'm not talking about maps with huge hills and whatnot. But some small hills here and there, some small forests, towns etc etc would be very nice some maps are made very nicely, with terrain features, but not so much that it gives one side a huge advantage, but rather gives the player who utilises the available terrain some small advantage. There was one map which was a great example of this and it is sad I can't remember its name because it was one of the funnest maps ive ever played. There was a small hill on the left side of the map from defenders view, the rest of the map was rolling hills, some ups some downs. It was a fun map because although defender had that hill at start, it was a fairly even match when it came to capturing the hill, if the attack did manage to capture the hill then they would be given and advantage. I'd also like to see some more variety in the era played. I ussually only see high or late era and since this is not my cup of tea I would like to see more viking era which i do not see much of now. Some high florin game would be nice, 12-15 or around there games would be good because that is the level of florin I can work at.
Sadly I am behind a firewall and a router ;) so I cannot host, if I could i most definatly would. So, that is my opinion on the matter I'm sorry that I wrote an entire book
-Edit to hopefully make it easier to read.

[Puzz3D]

A standard florin level allows players to build on their previous experience, and develop a higher level of skill in subsequent battles. A standard set of allies allows the same type of skill building with regard to teamplay. Change the florins or change the allies, and you have to backtrack and rebuild those skills for the new setting. So, most players will tend to seek these standards. The other issue is maps since the defender gets to choose the terrain where the fighting will take place. I interpret the popularity of steppe maps to indicate that players would like skill to determine the winner rather than map terrain. Of course, in truely fun games you can attack difficult terrain or give other handicaps just to see if you can be successful. However, I think it's the competitive stance most of the clans and individuals take which is driving the game towards standards and flat maps. Flat maps are fun for the competitive player. After all, you have no advantage to start, and have to generate one from nothing other than your skill in moving the units. In this respect it's like playing a game of chess. It has that appeal.

The choice of 10k as a standard is to allow both morale and attrition to play a somewhat equal role in the tactical gameplay. The overall morale level of the units changes with valor upgrades, so changing florins has a big effect on how long units fight. Drop to 5k in vi v2.01 and morale is the dominating tactical factor. Rise to 20k or more and attrition dominates with most units fighting to the last man. 10k isn't universally accepted even amoung the clans, and some prefer something a little lower and some a little higher. The RTK clan in particular held to 15k in vi v2.01 for a long time. They have not pushed for 10k to my knowledge. I have to agree that 10k might be a bit low for big team games, because allies have to stay fairly close together since double teaming is so devastating at 10k.

Don't think other players are having an easy time getting games going. As a rule, nobody is getting big 3v3 and 4v4's going without waiting. About 1 game every 1.5 hours is what I average. Without fail the worse games I have are team games where players join with inadequate machines, inadequate network connections, complete missunderstanding of how to purchase their army or inability to move their units. We vets play out the games anyway and say gg, but let's be honest the vets just had a unrewarding game. We do it to foster new players, but some 1v1 for these new players might be a good idea to get up to speed before jumping into veteran teamgames.


Simovek,

I agree that morale isn't easy to master. It's an invisible force that permiates the battle environment. The positional morale effects have ranges on them. It's a highly complex effect. However, you can't learn how to handle it unless you play at morale levels where it is a big effect. Of course, you can avoid it and stick to higher florins with fewer games available to you. The more restrictive a player is about his playing conditions, the fewer games he will have available to play, and I see the issue for players who can't host because I couldn't host for almost a year in STW. You just end up going with the majority on game settings, but you also learn how to play well at those settings.

In most of my games, I try to balance the sides even when it means clan members play as opponents. However, you don't know who is a new player and who is an undercover vet. So it's not easy, and I somtimes just go ahead with my clanmates all on one side especially if we are working on improving our teamplay for an upcoming competition.

[Robin Locksly]

Well its good to hear a couple of people agreeing with me


U are right about how hard it is to get games going nowadays, aint a clue why tho

I tried hosting a 3v3 late era 15k each Hastings map game and suprise suprise, no one joined.

Then I tried again 10 mins later and 1 joined after about 5 mins of waiting.

Note there was around 70 people online at that time and also my connection is 600k so dont go blaming those 2 things.

[Elrich of Gaul]

[B]The two clans that have ruined this game are the RTK and 7bear7[I]

Doh.. I've been had. Gah. and here I thought my secret plan to dominate entire communities into subliminal 10K games at their own discretions was going to go unscathed... gah.

Robin... you're just too awesome for me...

*bows head down in failure and shame*

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[InDaKnight]

This guy is cracking me up. Who do you think created that 15k norm you liked so much? It had to be an organization of players maybe clans did. There's still a ton to be experimented with in 10k. Pumped up units, decoy units, hybrids, specialized cav. Anything 1v in 10k can be useful either because their cheap or their actually quite good. Instead of whining you should get better at playing.

[Robin Locksly]

I am a good a very good player, I can create very good rmies with 10k but my point is that it is the clans that has created the norm, not individuals or groups of individuals and since most MTW players are in a clan, its hard to get games going with anything over 15k and with exotic maps.

The reason I said "there should be less clans" is becuase if there were elss clans then the whole community wouldent be playing just 10k speepinland# and flatinland# maps.

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (Robin Locksly @ Mar. 18 2004,01:58)]I am a good a very good player, I can create very good rmies with 10k
I'll be the judge of that.

This here is a public challenge to a 1v1 duel

Robin--

MTW VI 2.01. Best of 3 games, 10k-- I'll fight on any map without mountains on it (hills are okay). Name the era, terrain, etc.

I want to see what you've got.

Morale, Fatigue, and limited ammo must be turned on--but otherwise you can pick your settings.

Name the time and I'll do my darndest to be there with bells on.

If you can spank me then I'll start taking you seriously. Otherwise you are just a big noise with nothing behind it.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif

[Cazbol]

A challenge to a duel. That's the proper medieval spirit. Keep us posted.

[Robin Locksly]

Ok well if your in the UK, how about 11:00am which is exactly 1 hour from now. I'll be in VI at 11:00am waiting for you.

Is this ok for you...

steppesinland06, high, 10k?

[MiniKiller]

Quote[/b] (Robin Locksly @ Mar. 18 2004,01:58)]I am a good a very good player, I can create very good rmies with 10k but my point is that it is the clans that has created the norm, not individuals or groups of individuals and since most MTW players are in a clan, its hard to get games going with anything over 15k and with exotic maps.

The reason I said "there should be less clans" is becuase if there were elss clans then the whole community wouldent be playing just 10k speepinland# and flatinland# maps.
clans equal groups of individual players, therefore individuals did infact get this 10k going. casue its what everyone like.

its the most tactical as of yet and takes the most skill

i still see higher games but they are no fun with valour 9 everybody and 12 units of the best troops.

[Puzz3D]

Robin Locksly,

The Hastings map is a tough one to get people to join because it's a steep downward slope from the attacker's side. That map is at the top of the list of the one's I avoid.

If you don't like 10k, steppe map, high era why are you accepting a challenge at those settings? Shouldn't the challenge be played at several different settings?

[7Bear7Scar]

There is very little I can add to this topic that has not already been said. All I can do is to offer some links to Robin to show the discussions that took place regarding the florin standard. I would be keen to know if his ideas change a little once he has read them, particularly relating to clan-domination?

I suspect that I spoke to you in the lobby last night, we had a very similar conversation. I also recommend downloading the mappacks - many people are using them now, and many are far from flat, making for more enjoyable games.

High or Low Florins? (more recent topic) (http://totalwars.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2133&start=0)

To get a clear view in florin standards (the BIG topic) (http://totalwars.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1194)

[Aleborg]

mik big mani geme 99999
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mik big mani geme 99999


U all bad pleiers, me the best.
me challenge any of u, me 10k u 99,999k


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[The_Emperor]

A lot of maps players won't join non-steppes games because the terrain is sometimes in favor of one side or the other.

I once joined a game (not realising what map it was, I just looked at the florin, era and player count and joined).

Anyway I joined this game forgot what map it was and when the game opened I finally recognised it. It was the "Horns of Hattin" map and I and two other players were sitting inside the low sandy basin while the other three players sat happy on the hill in front of us.

Needless to say we couldn't win as they refused to come down to the flat to fight and after 25 minutes of waiting we finally made the decision to rush them on one flank... Of course with the disadvantage ground we were slaughtered.

So you have to be very careful what maps you pick because a lot of MTW maps have hills on the sides which favor one side or the other, and people are very wary of joining such games.

[Sulla]

Ehm yeah... oke... yeah.. sure

First of all heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, Kenchikuka also had a part in that 10k PLOT and SCAM to piss people off.
So did many other clans, so dont just blame bears and RTK (who happen 2 be very skillfull, honourable clans, as many others)

Now why was it 15k? and why is it 10k.

Simply put, this isnt Red Alert, it isnt warcraft 3 where you run your troops around without any real feeling for tactics, let alone morale.

It is a REAL time STRATEGY game, where you behave like a medieval general and try to rout the enemy of the field, instead of killing them all. It is perfectly possible to loose only some of your troops, while the rest flee in fear, if you mess up. Is that why you are pissed? Do you want valour 4 supertrooper chivalric knights with armour 3 weapon 3? Then go host a 99k game, and see who joins and hf. Just dont come barking on our door saying we are ruïning the game, while in fact many clans try to make this as interesting as possible for anyone who enjoyes this type of game. Go see for yourself, there are tourney's being hosted by a couple of organiser talents. Brilliant websites and strategy guides all over the place, many people who will help you out in anyway they can. Clan to clan warfare is a big part of the fun for us in TW.

Iv been a "member" of this community for over a year now, and made many friends, and some enemies :D. It just shows how dedicated to the game and community people are. They like it the way it is played. Your just here to insult anyone you can without any knowledge of the past, and present situation.

Now if you dont want to be in a clan, no problem just enjoy yourself, nobody will blame you for it. But dont insult some of the most dedicated people in this community
with these kind of posts.

You could have said, why is it that most games are being hosted at 10k? Did you? no, you decided you were right and the rest of the player where plotting to make your live miserable.

If 50k games made it more realistic, the majority would have been playing that. But its not. 10k and 15k games seem to attract most people because the behaviour of your troops feels most realistic. Offcourse, its not perfect but we are happy playing it.....

If your not, again No problem, its your party but dont insult players who have been doing many things for each other and help each other out in anyway they can. (And new players to).

Sulla, member of Kenchikuka

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (Robin Locksly @ Mar. 18 2004,03:58)]Ok well if your in the UK, how about 11:00am which is exactly 1 hour from now. I'll be in VI at 11:00am waiting for you.

Is this ok for you...

steppesinland06, high, 10k?
I'm glad you have accepted-- that is the spirit Well I'm in Oregon, USA. That is 8 hours behind you. We are going to have to schedule a time that works for both of us. I issued my challenge from work, and I can't play from here :(.

Generally weekends are the best for US players to fight European players. I'm also willing to wake up early in the morning and do it, if my work schedule allows. Late at night could work for me too.

I work fairly long hours during the day-- 16:00 GMT - 03:00 GMT your time. So I can play anytime between 03:00 GMT and 16:00 GMT. (7:00 pm. to 8:00 a.m. my time). I'll be out of town this saturday, but back on sunday evening.

My email address is thegod_ofwine@yahoo.com or you can just PM me here. I'm looking forward to it

GL HF

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (Robin Locksly @ Mar. 18 2004,03:58)]Ok well if your in the UK, how about 11:00am which is exactly 1 hour from now. I'll be in VI at 11:00am waiting for you.

Is this ok for you...

steppesinland06, high, 10k?
I'm glad you have accepted-- that is the spirit Well I'm in Oregon, USA. That is 8 hours behind you. We are going to have to schedule a time that works for both of us. I issued my challenge from work, and I can't play from here :(.

Your terms are more than acceptable. I accept them.

Generally weekends are the best for US players to fight European players, but in this case I'm also willing to wake up early in the morning and do it, if my work schedule allows. Late at night could work for me too, depending.

I work fairly long hours during the day-- 16:00 GMT - 03:00 GMT your time. So I can play anytime between 03:00 GMT and 16:00 GMT. (7:00 pm. to 8:00 a.m. my time). I'll be out of town this saturday, but back on sunday evening.

My email address is thegod_ofwine@yahoo.com or you can just PM me here. I'm looking forward to it

GL HF

[Nigel]

hmmm interesting, this topic....
when I first read this thread, I was appalled by the tone and the flaming. At some point I thought, this cannot possibly be serious with all the accusations. Anyway, the heat seems to settle a bit and perhaps having a run on the battlefield in good old fashion will do the spirit or this discussion a lot of good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Issues of etiquette and personal insults aside, I do have to say that when I log on these days a lot of the time I see only flat or steppe maps and I go "ohh, not again". I like them now and again, especially with a good team strategy, but not all the time. And yes, it can be difficult at times to find someone to join my hilly or castle map. Like Simovek, who commented earlier, I am not a very good player who could play out his full potential on flat maps. And while the answer to that is to learn and get better (working on it and will get there one day - maybe) very often all I want is a fun game on an interesting map.

Well, there is the MP mappack, and there is the Community mod. These things may put a lot more variation into the games without sacrificing balance.

There is also a very good thought from Kongamato on page 1, which seems to have been lost in all this talk. I think it is worth repeating it here :

Quote[/b] ]When we all get more civil we might be able to discuss an idea I had where the team's money amounts are set by the map, like 40000D/60000A on a hill assault or something equal on a flatter area. It has potential problems but might help in permitting a little variety.


I have myself played a couple of those "unbalanced" maps with Florin levels asymmetrically adjusted. You do not always get the balance right, but when you do, it can result in some excellent games. And what would be good (and also to get something constructive out of this dispute) would be to have some recommendation or maybe just a discussion in a different thread about what Florin odds should be used with what map.

[Robin Locksly]

Unfortunatly Nigel u have 3 choices,

1. waste your time trying to get a server full that has a florin count higher than 10-15k and a hilly or castle map.

2. U can learn to fight the "norm" way and practice with 10k armies untill u are good.

3. Go away.

Now i'm sure you will pick option 2 which is what id expect most to do aswell but you see that means you have actually been kind of forced to do so, not in the sense of forced by the community but becuase if you want to actually play MTW online, u are gonna have to choose option 2.

[Robin Locksly]

Quote[/b] (Sulla @ Mar. 18 2004,08:40)]Ehm yeah... oke... yeah.. sure

First of all heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, Kenchikuka also had a part in that 10k PLOT and SCAM to piss people off.
"plot" & "scam", sorry but plz shut your mouth or use words that dont sound like exaggerated cockey BS.

[Sulla]

Quote[/b] ]The reason clans have ruined this game is by creating the what I call "norm", 10k, high era, flat crappy map

You tell us we ruin the game, and you call me cocky, and bullsh*tting??

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif keep up the good work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

THAT was sarcarms and yes, it was a bit cocky http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Puzz3D]

Nigel,

The idea of rating maps for difficulty has been raised in the past. It's a pretty daunting task, and the rating would vary depending on 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 battle sizes. Of course, the defender(s) must then use the hill advantage to full effect. From what I know of the game mechanics, a 1.7 to 1 advantage in florins for a 1v1 where the defender has a big hill would be a starting point. I don't think the combat and morale advantages of a big hill are greater than a single valor upgrade which costs 70% more. Fatigue is an issue, but if you handicap the defender to the extent that a direct assault on optimally placed defending forces has a 50% chance of success then the hilly map is now equivalent to a flat map with equal opposing forces. So maybe a florin handicap that just takes away some of the defender's advantage is better than one that attempts to equalize it, and that would give a greater margin for error in assigning the handicap since it can be a less precise type of thing. I don't mind conceeding defenders and advantage, but I don't want the attacker's situation at the start to be so bad that it's hopeless either. I believe this is the reason players avoid non-flat maps.

I think castle maps and river maps would require handicaps larger than 1.7. I tried to come up with reasonable handicaps for large castle maps by playing them many times, but it's not easy to do.


Robin Locksly,

You're playing high florin 1v1 games attacking castle and hilly maps and winning? If you're winning those, it must be against weak players. Beating up on weak players just doesn't interest me. Even the weakest of the clan players wouldn't loose defending one of those maps as long as they were familiar with army purchase at whatever the florin level is for the game. I don't see you playing Dion under the conditions that you want the rest of us to play under. Try giving Dion a castle and you attack, and see how much "fun" you have. If the clans stopped playing their flat maps and started playing castle and hills, you would soon see the problem which is "no way to overcome the disadvantage that the map imposes when the players involved are all of a similar skill level".

[Bezalel]

Robin, I don't know what you're talking about. I may be alone, but i've seen 7bear7s hosting more late era than high era. All the other stuff I would have to add has already been said by other people.

[Swoosh So]

Was going to reply but wont http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif 10k rules http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Bezalel]

Also, what's wrong w/ less than 10k games? Why do you want only more florins?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

There are a couple of features that many players like to find in game, and then players, being in or outside of clans strive to go to what they like.

Personnaly I like;

- fun games with good people; I sure don't like playing with people telling me or anyone else, to shut my mouth, or using other kind of foul language... See what I mean?

- fair games; that's a rather big argument for flattish kind of map. Hills do make a difference. I also go for hills from time to time, as long as they give some chance to get a good game. My favorite map in normal map is hillinland03. And I dislike steppe. Still, having a fair game is important.
Slightly off topic; that's also why I like to try to balance teams, siding with the best players to average the team out.

- challenging games; where I got to use some thinking to try to pull a win.
Let's think about this notion some more; I like it when;
1/ morale matters, and units do not fight till they die all, no matter what (jedi units)
2/ flanking matters, and being able to get one's flank will make a difference
3/ arms and the Rock / Paper/ Scissor dimension of the game matters, when I need to care about match up, and need to have some different units and maximize their use to win.
4/ teamplay matters, and I got to care that my allies are not getting doubled, because, outnumbered they will rout fast.

The florins level can impact drastically whether any of those tactical finesse matter or not.
When you play at 30k, units fight until they die all, whatever happen around them. Flanking is not important. And you can hold a long time at 1v2.
Overall, the lower the florin, the more those factors matter, the happier I am.

At 10k, morale issue are somehow ok without changing the game into a rout festival. The Rock / Paper / Scissor dimension of the game is still very disappointing at that level. But I am not aware that any other level fare better.

Robin, sure, play whatever you want. If you think that 10k is not a good florin level to play with; fine, let me know what other florin level you consider, and how it impacts the various aspects I wrote about above.
You can also point at other aspect I value less, explain me that, this is what you think is fun, and then we'll just have an honest disagreement on what we think is fun.

Good luck, and have fun,

Louis,

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Mar. 18 2004,13:37)]I don't see you playing Dion under the conditions that you want the rest of us to play under. Try giving Dion a castle and you attack, and see how much "fun" you have.
Heheh, that would be funny. But I do see some value in playing Robin on his "dreaded 10k steppes." Why?

Well, if he can beat me at "my own game" so to speak (2 out of 3 on 10k steppes), then he has displayed a certain degree of mastery over 10k steppes and, at least in my mind, he is free to criticise those map settings. If, on the other hand, I can beat him at least 2 out of 3 on those maps, then I think it is safe to say he needs to work on his understanding of proper 10k steppe armies and tactics.

So we shall see. It is quite possible that Robin is more skilled at 10k steppes than I am, and that I should be taking his criticism of 10k more seriously. It is also possible I will blow him back to defending 99k castle maps.

Robin and I are working on scheduling the duel now. I'm hoping to have all 3 games played at around 15:30 GMT tomorrow, but it depends on Robin's availability.

Whatever the time we end up battling, stadium seating will be available for the first 6 to sign up Get your tickets now, folks. (4v4 with 6 spectators withdrawing).

[Robin Locksly]

Hehe, yeah an audience would be quite cool.

[Alrowan]

oooooh
can i watch

[Dionysus9]

Ok, Robin and I have finalized our battle time/date:

The 3 1v1 steppes06 10k battles will begin at 15:30 GMT, Friday, March 19th.

Hope to see some spectators

the battles will be between "whakassman" and "|Prophet_Initiate|_Bachus"

[frogbeastegg]

Keep the replays of the battles, then you can distribute them to anyone wanting to watch. I'm sure they could be put up for download somewhere for a few days...

[Nikodil]

Yes, gimme a ticket

If memory serves, steppinland02 has a nice pub where we can warm up.

[Robin Locksly]

The first 6 people to reply saying I want to spectate the game gets a PM from me containing the passowrd for the game.

[Simovek]

I'd like to watch if there are any space still open. 15:30 GMT is 10:30 EST correct? And I assume this is PM, not AM right?

[The Witch-King]

I'd like to reserve a ticket too please. :)

[Vexilles]

hook me up with a ticket. i wanna c this game an may the best bloke win http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Puzz3D]

Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Mar. 18 2004,15:04)]Well, if he can beat me at "my own game" so to speak (2 out of 3 on 10k steppes), then he has displayed a certain degree of mastery over 10k steppes and, at least in my mind, he is free to criticise those map settings. If, on the other hand, I can beat him at least 2 out of 3 on those maps, then I think it is safe to say he needs to work on his understanding of proper 10k steppe armies and tactics.
Dion,

Well, I can tell you he doesn't understand proper 10k armies because I've recently seen one. Now I understand why he wants to play at a higher florin level. It's not easy for someone who is outside a clan to learn army purchase unless they go and analyze the stats, and play a lot of games at that florin level. I wonder how many 10k games Robin has played? A clan only needs one member to analyze unit stats, and then this info is distributed to the clan members, and there will be collaboration on the stat analysis within the clan further refining it combined with pooling of battle experience. Once a standard florin level is set, that standard is analyzed to death, and anyone coming into the game without the same level of analysis is at a disadvantage. So, the clans are a factor in making it hard for ronin players to compete. I think this situation would persist no matter what florin level was chosen as a standard.

Unit and faction imbalance is what causes one army to work better than another. You can't just take anything you like for units because many are outclassed by something more cost effective. The process is one of finding out what works at a particular florin level, and then adjusting your army purchase and game tactics to that. It's the imbalance that robs players of variety. It's the experienced players who drive the game in the direction of what works best, and other players pick up on it. After a while, most players are using highly effective armies and tactics. In the golden age of mtw this was still unknown, so players tried all kinds of things and it was interesting, but those days are gone and you can't get them back. I purposely did not choose the best armies or the best facions in those days because I didn't want to accelerate the process of narrowing the units one could use and still be competitive. I never once used Byz or Spanish in mtw v1.1 except I used Byz on one occasion in a cwc game, and 4 spears was standard for me. How many experienced players do you see using 4 spears at 10k these days? These days I have to get pretty close to the best unit choices to have a chance of success, and the 4 spears had to go not because of the way I play but because of the army choice of my opponents. I'll often still use 2 spears just to get a bit more variety, but it's an inferior army. The more the imbalance the narrower your choices become over time as more and more players become optimized.

Robin can play with me anytime he likes, and I'll help him with 10k games if he wants. We also play CBR mod games, and he might be interested in that. I do occasionally host hilly maps, but I don't host a lot of them. I'll host a hilly map on request. A smallish castle is ok too, but the big ones are just too hard to attack. I can't say I'll go to high florins because it doesn't appeal to me with morale being mostly eliminated from the gameplay.

[Robin Locksly]

I am not a n00b at this game.

Anyway in 20 mins, the duel will start between me and Bachus.

[The Witch-King]

Results:

Round 1: Robin (650 vs 450 kills)Can't remember the faction vs Papacy

Round 2: Dionysus(650 vs 450 kills)Hungarians vs Hungarians

Round 3: Dionysus(800 vs 500 kills) Byz vs Byz

End Result: Dionysus wins 2-1

Good games Robin and Dionysus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Robin Locksly]

Thanks for posting results.

[Nigel]

Sounds like a close run. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

I'd love to see the replays.
Or could someone provide battle reports ?
Written in good sportsmanship and chivalry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Dionysus9]

Yup it was relatively close. Robin played well. The first battle I took 3 pavs, but he took no missles--so I knew I was in trouble. Also, to make matters worse-- I took 8 cav, only 3 fmaa, a horsearcher general, and a jobaggy.

I knew I would heve to break a flank to win, so I went left hard. Somehow I broke the left, but my right was crushed. I couldn't rally enough to make a go of it. Now I'm thinking I should have played a wussy game of cat and mouse, trying to create mistakes I could exploit with cav. But you know me, thats not my style. I'd rather engage than run around the map.

Second game I was obviously prepared to face a no missle army, but I was aware Robin could be trying to react to my reaction to his no missle army, so I took:

2 pavs
4 fmaa
3 cmaa
4 feudal knights
2 chivkings
1 horsearch gen

Robin again had no missles, and this time I was prepared. Some of Robin's chivsergeants took too long getting to the fight and I won.

Third game we both took byz. I think Robin took 6 byzinf, but I only took 4 and spent the rest on Varangians. The 4-max-tax might have made a difference. This time Robin had 3 pavs and I only had 2, but I still managed to provoke his charge.

The battles were close enough that I can say Robin is a skilled ronin. Also, the games were very very exciting and I thouroughly enjoyed them as did all the spectators.

So... it was fun. Robin did well. The honor of the clans has been defended. And I think that maybe... just maybe...Robin had some great fun on 10k steppes

Oh, and Yuuki-- your last post is 100% right-on. I think my experience with 10k gave me the edge. Fighting with lower florins hones your skills in army selection as well as tactically--you have less to work with so you have to make it stretch. I've been playing at 9k lately and 10k is nice bonus cash. I'm sure it worked the other way for Robin.

Anyway--I had fun and I still love my 10k steppes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Robin Locksly]

I have gotten to like 10k alot over these last couple of days TBH.

[Dionysus9]

You are a good man, Robin of Locksly. Nice to have met you.

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

My point is not that army choice is more difficult at lower florins, although, it would be for someone who doesn't take unit morale into consideration. It's just different. If I go into a 25k game and take my 10k army with uniformly distributed additional upgrades, that's not going to be optimal. The same is true of someone trying to take their 25k army down to 10k or lower. Also, that 20% tax on more than 4 of one unit type hurts overall army strength more at lower florins.

[Sulla]

:)

One point of advice Robin, if you still want it from me,

Hit f1 at beginning of battle, to see how morale/attack/defense stats are with your units.

Also, if you need any tips (and I dont want to sound arrogant here) just look me up in the Lobby (Kenchi_Sulla). I know a couple of things about army selection http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Sulla, (no sarcasm here)

[Gregoshi]

7Bear7Bottom posts the following reply in the Entrance Hall:

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Hello Robin,

I don't remember your name ever joining any of my games, and I host a lot on VI everyday for the Bear's. Bottom do this, Bottom do that, Bottom host a game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

My games are always 90% hills, early or late, and I'm 99.9% of the time attacking with not only my clan m8's, but with total new players with the game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif (Even when the odds are far superior for my skills to support everyone). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

I think everyone here who has joined my games will agree with what I'm saying and know of the Bear Hunting Server. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

I don't mind losing with new people because I like them to contribute to the game and figure out strategy that will work. Most of the time, a new player to a game will ask me before the battle is, "What's the plan?", my cheesy reply is, "don't die." And with a little thought and luck, they amazingly figure out a strata and sometimes we win against good players. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

As stated in other post, I like 10k for one simple reason, the exotic troops. Who me? Use exotic troops? Like an all gun army? Never http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif

So I'm here just to set the record straight, the Bear clan likes the challenge of hills, and we also like 15k games in VI, in fact I hosted quite a few like this. And when it comes to Stepps, it is usually a challenge from another clan and we play the challenge on a fair field. And why does my sever fill up so fast? Because the defender is getting the advantage. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Your welcome to come and attack with me anytime, or camp on that big hill I'll give you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

But hey don't just take my word for it, download this replay just played recently where we attacked on a mountain.

http://www.hawk.igs.net/~cgazey/Mountain%20attack.vrp

I won't tell you the outcome because that would just ruin it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

P.S. Note Kuma's straight vertical attack. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

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Bottom's original post can be found here (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=16384).

[The_Emperor]

Oswald has also posted the following reply in the Entrance Hall...

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First I know this is on the wrong thread; I haven't posted here before so I guess that limits me to the Entrance Hall.

Second I am a member of a clan, HM, with a dozen active players in VI. Many of the names here I recognise so hi all.

There is an active thread elsewhere called Clans have ruined game. I disagree. It accuses Bears and RTK particularly. Not Fair.

1> Standard Florin issue: 10k is standard in VI; 15k in MTW. There are good reasons for this. Both standards have been found by gameplay and active discussion to be as balanced as possible.
High Florin games tend to make infantry all powerful.
Low florin games can be dominated by cavalry.

As a matter of interest I do host, and play non standard florin games. Myself I like 2.5k per army 4v4 as a very crazy and funny game.

2> Map issue: 'steppes is boring'. Yes it is if u play it all the time. However the mappack games are increasingly common and worthy of attention. The HM's as a clan will also host hill games; flatinland,desert and mappack games. I have seen both Bears and RTK do the same.

No question that if u are hosting an open vanilla game where all are welcome you will likely host steppes06 high.
Peeps turn up for that game.

In a lobby empty of players u know and play regularly u try hosting a mappack game gl...

3> 'clans ruin game' No sorry wont wash. Clans have made multiplayer a fun place. Imagine if we ONLY had 1v1 tourneys? No fun heh?

I have played in games with players I dont know. Once I made a flank attack and was doupled. My 'ally' sat there...I am sure otheres have similiar story. Thats why we play with peeps we know and trust well... guess we call them clans.. funny that.

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[LadyAnn]

Bottom, keep it up :)

hehee

Annie