how to kill swiss armoured pikemen?

[misterphil]

I thought that I'd have a go plaing the french on High/normal.

the problem that I'm facing is that the swiss want burgandy. I keep getting hit by attacks of swiss armoured pikemen, with +2 armour upgrades.

The first attack I defeated with losses of 2.5 times the number of pikemen that I killed, the second I won but cost me 689 men, compared to around 250 dead pikes, and the 3rd I lost - the pikes formed into a line and charged - within seconds my entire army was legging it ...

Also, I managed to cut off the swiss king (armoured pikeman). For over 15 minutes he held off my general's unit of chiv. MAA ,(he killed around 10) 100 peasants (he killed 32 of them) and a depleted unit of Royal knights (he killed 1)

When almost all the other troops were dead he ran away, but managed to outpace my cav. Even withdrawing the knights, forming them into a wedge and repeatedly charging made no difference.

How do I kill the SOB?

Tactics tried so far:

halbs in the centre, CMAA and archers to flank
C. sgts in centre, loads of archers and royal knights to flank/charge rear
pav arbs on flanks, longbows in centre with CMAA

[Duke John]

Yes these guys are tough. When I face them I try to have at least 2 mounted crossbowmen (hire them if you're French) and a couple of arbs. Use your MC to distract a few pikes and shoot them. You will need a good defensive position for the rest and shoot one unit at a time, they won't run unless depleted. Then hold your line with a good defensive unit, preferably with large numbers and then repeatedly rearcharge them with cav. Start on the flank and gradually work towards the center.

Good luck,
Duke John

[Beirut]

Longbows

Lots of 'em

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[squippy]

Foot Knights. It was solving the SAP problem that alerted me to their effectiveness. Footknights and Arbs (non pav arbs) and you're sorted.

[Cebei]

Organ guns http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif by the way I wish we had something called mounted organ gunners

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

High valour Serpentines http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Bezalel]

Skirmish, skirmish, skirmish. It's the trick to beating the computer any time. It is simply incapable of skirmishing. Draw out unit surround them w/ everything then watch them run away. Draw out units and give them lots and lots of arrows (They are free kills, and the computer sucks at skirmishing).

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Uauuuuu http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked.gif Simultaneous posts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

[MonkeyMan]

I'd go for either a fast moving missile unit or Foot Knights. They can be buggers to kill off but I tend to have a few units of either knights i can dismount or modded in foot knights in most armies so they don't last all that long in my games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[ichi]

Cavalry archers - as the French you get Turcopoles - they do OK, and foot archers - for killing armoured troops I have found that you want a few xbows or arbs without the pavise (the pav is great for archer duels, but to skirmish is too slow).

Kept your distance, don't try to roll over them. They are like the Byz in this respect. Do as Bez suggests and hit a unit of SAP then pull your unit back. When the SAPs pursue they lose their rank formation bonuses and then you hit em in the flanks with your CMAA and in the rear with a heavy cav.

When they collapse and rout dont chase, stop reorganize, and pick the next unit you wish to isolate.

If you are on attack keep your foot soldiers back until your cav archers have done thier work. On defense meet the SAPs in the middle of the field - don't wait on the back edge until they are on you or you won't have run to maneuver.

ichi

[SwordsMaster]

Hi,

I had the same prob playing with the Danes,and i discovered thed the woodsmen do loads of damage to those guys.Theyre dirt cheap,and you have loads of them.I upgraded their armor and attack just for the pikemen....I didnt used MAA in the whole campaign (except when i bribed them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

Another option is charge them from the rear with gendarmes or Gothic Foot knights, but get at least 2 of each for each unit of SAP you want to chop...

Good luck

[Kekvit Irae]

Attacking SAPs with horsemen is suicide. My suggestion is to flank them with heavy hitting infantry like Militia, or something else with armor piercing weapons, until the pikemen's morale drops and they break. Longbows dont hurt either, if you are English.

[Bezalel]

Usually, after a bit of fighting outnumbered, a unit will run away when charged by cav on an open flank.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Spit on them With so much armour as they have, soon that will rust and they'll be an easy prey... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[makkyo]

Quote[/b] ]Skirmish, skirmish, skirmish
Can't stress this point more Take advantage of how slow the Pikemen are and make them run to you with their heavy armor... and running.... and running... soon they are exausted and will rout soon.

[Nowake]

As the others said, the arbs are the ones you need. Try placing them on a hill, at different altitudes, one unit behind the other. Anyone foolish enough (the AI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif ) to charge head on will be massacred.

[SwordsMaster]

You can use arbs and still hit them in the rear with Foot knights...

Ive been trying a couple of custom battles yesterday, and the jinetes are the best imaginable counter for the SAPs.Theyre fast,affordable,ranged,and armor piercing...can you possibly wish something more?

[Seven.the.Hun]

...cheap region advantave footsoldiears for attack, must be coupled by archer fire, or what i preferr, cavalry flank attack...then they will be crushed outright,
MUST FLANK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[phyrrus]

SAP in high era. Hmmm..I use arbs with high star general to increase the morale and power shot. If u have skirmisher than use Javelin. bring some along. (It has potential to kill their commander.thats what i did before but i doubt they will rout)if they came closer i use arb to engage and the other arbs to flank them and shoot them. (if u think mix army a bothersome then try arb and a unit with high star general)

[son of spam]

The best way to kill SAP is to frontally charge them with spears in hold formation and position.

Then flank the SAP with everything you've got. Your spears will hold their SAP for quite a while.

Fight fire with fire I say. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[son of spam]

Actually the best way to kill SAP is to frontally charge them with your general in wedge formation. Try it, it's fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[katank]

massed mtd. xbows and arbs will demolish them. I would not use any other foot soldiers.
javs are good too but need a unit to pin the SAPs for best results and can cause some heavy casualties.
I think the only foot troops capable of beating SAPs in melee is JHI.

[HopAlongBunny]

As said earlier: skirmish skirmish skirmish

Breaking up the enemy always helps, and against SAP its crucial. Spears will hold SAP but you have to get something on the flank or rear to destroy them.

Arbs are very useful. Inflict nice casualties before the unit is engaged (a concentrated mass of armoured units) give the unit a morale penalty during melee and draw units out to be butchered.

If you can entice them to attack into the woods so much the better :) Losing the rank bonus really hurts the effectiveness of pike formations.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]how to kill swiss armoured pikemen?

BOILING HOT CHEESE FONDU http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

sorry everyone, i`ve been trying my best not to say that for a couple of days, but i just couldn`t resist this one anymore. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Nowake]

If that does it for you m8, then go ahead http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]If that does it for you m8, then go ahead

there`s nothing worse than itch you can`t scratch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[misterphil]

Since I started this off, I have tried different options. Arbs are a good bet, but the thing that's most fun is my army of 5 demi culverins. I have been romping thru europe with them - they're great They have enough range that I can use them for attacking as well as defending.

My best battle was when I invaded Switzerland. The SAPs retreated all the way to the top of the mountain opposite - a clear field of fire I then spent an age shooting at them whilst they scurried around like ants (ha ha Ha Ha HA), which covered the approach of my Chiv knights to the top of the hill - and then they charged down, driving the swiss onto my Chiv MAA - 541 dead, 300+ captured for a loss of 61 troops

The other thing that I have found is that you can put the cannon as far forward as poss. shoot up the baddies and then withdraw them - they get valour and leg it before getting killed The AI doesn't tend to attack unattended cannon, so when the first wave is repulsed, the gunners can return and shoot up the second wave.

I've just fought off 5400 turks using this technique - it took an absolute age, but setting up almost on my side of the map meant that I could use all my heavily armoured N. European troops without exhausting them too much.

Sorry for the length of this post, and thanks for all the advice

[makkyo]

no problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Puffs]

How to deal with SAP's?

2 words.
Viking Huscarles

[Gore]

Your problem is super last stand Swiss King :)

[katank]

@ puffs, this would work far better if you used em in conjunction with mtd x-bows etc. to lure them into the trees to duke it out with your huscarles as the SAPs are dependent upon their rank bonus.

[Agravain of Orkney]

First choice - stand off and pound them with armor piercing missiles. Longbows, crossbows or arbs will do the trick.

Second choice - This unit fights most effectively when stopped on hold formation, hold position. Get the unit moving and hit it in the flanks or rear. Cav or infantry will do the trick. If you use cav, charge the flank or rear and then disengage, don't continue in melee or your cav will get chewed up once the unit regains its composure and starts to fight you.

Third choice - send in some axemen to chop em up. Some good valor militia sergeants with their armor piercing bonus work well.

Best choice - soften with missiles, charge with axemen, flank with cav, and watch em run. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[lancer63]

I have to use arbalesters, LBs or brigands to try and kill or isolate the commander of an army with SAPs. If the enemy's morale and valor is too high I'm in for a bloody, almost certain defeat.

I soften them with bolts, arrows and stones if available, pin down with reliable spears (feaudals mostly), flank and rear attack with all the Gallows, Swabians and FMAAs I can find. Pepper with kerns, jinetes and any other jav. unit I can find. All my contact horsies must be busy running down enemy archers and keeping the enemy commander away from his center if posible. That helps break the enemy's morale faster.

[bighairyman]

bah, the best way to counter pike/spear type units is to use offensive sword units. Like GFK, or any other foot knights will rip through them. Use missile units for support. and if possible flank the back with light cavalry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

[gaijinalways]

I found the pikemen tough too, fought some in some of the historical battles and a few battles in my last Italian campaign. Have to try and hit them from a distance to weaken them up (arb, crossbows, longbowmen) and then hit them from all sides is handy. Also try arbeq or handgunners,they do a job on them from behind.

Or fight pikeman with pikeman (i picked some up as mercs)

I loved them, they took damage often just a s a decoy unit or to hold the line.

[Tempiic]

let them fight (high valour) arqs

[Vlad Tzepes]

Any sword unit will do when used in flanks or rear. Add charging cav, repeatedly, for max. effect. Hold the line with spears, do not charge with them, just hold. Swiss A.P. are not such a tough unit to crush, if you know how to deal with it. BTW, I discovered at my own expense how several units of fully upgraded Gothic Foot Knights, defending a bridge, can be slaughtered by a composition of Militia Sergeants (formerly rebels, bribed by the Almos), Muwahid Soldiers and Murabitin Infantry. I couldn't believe my eyes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[lancer63]

If I'm not playing the spanish or aragonese I always try and hire a few jinete units. First discovered they're great against armored foot unit when they began eating AUMs for breakfast. Slower armored units like SAPs are even easier for these muchachos. Pity they have such a short load of ammo. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[katank]

@ lancer, so true. I use a combo of jinettes and mtd x-bows to deal with armored but slow infantry.

jinettes are such a natural counter to AUMs no wonder the almos always lose to the spanish now.

[ancientworldnow]

Quote[/b] (misterphil @ Mar. 24 2004,04:15)]My best battle was when I invaded Switzerland. The SAPs retreated all the way to the top of the mountain opposite - a clear field of fire I then spent an age shooting at them whilst they scurried around like ants (ha ha Ha Ha HA), which covered the approach of my Chiv knights to the top of the hill - and then they charged down, driving the swiss onto my Chiv MAA - 541 dead, 300+ captured for a loss of 61 troops
Sounds like this is the way to go…