Early Turkish Strategies

[dragonchr15]

the English campaign which was a lot of fun but Im tired of playing Catholic factions. I need to know how to play the Turkish in the Early period. I read a few posts and some say attack Byzantines becasue you will have to deal with crusades if you attck Egypt while others say attack Egypt becasue they have rich land and can finance your war with Christendom.

I am not sure whom to attack.

Also, can someone tell me a good Turkish army? I read Horse Archers are the key and historically (if i am not mistaken), the Turks massacred the Crusaders using Horse Archers.

[The_678]

Me I like to rush the egyptians for the richness of their lands. Also if you can capture their king in Antioch its a major advantage for the early game.

My army was mostly Turcoman horse and AHC(Armenian Heavy Canalry) until I could tech up to Saracens and Ghazis.

One thing with Muslim faction though is that you to learn to deal with losing alot of your men. THey just don't have the defense and Armour. But Ghazis are great for flanking and rears. Just don't expect to survive long.

[MadKow]

Likewise.
When playing the turks i always jump on Egypt and annihilate them ASAP. The chance to ransom their king is a bonus but the provinces you conquer are reward enough. I tend to leave the Byzantines alone, and dig in and build after conquering Egypt. I probably shouldn't stop and go all the way to Morocco.

The reason to leave the Byzantine is to later let them handle the Horde, and attack them afterward. This not always works depending on how the western powers expand.

An early attack to reach Constantinople is very tempting, but you really have to be good at using horse archers because that will be your main unit. Kats with a good general can be a very tough nut to crack. And if you give the Egyptians time to build up you will be facing hordes of camels in their element, the desert.

[Doug-Thompson]

Another Egyptian attacker here.

The best argument for attacking the Byz first is to get to them before they are too strong. However, I usually find that a strong Byz Empire is my best trading partner after I attack the Egyptians and hold the key trading provinces of Antioch, Tripoli and Egypt.

You have to build a navy to prevent a Crusade from landing on the key coastal provinces directly by sea. That naval protection has to extend to the Black Sea to prevent a Crusade from going through your back door through Georgia and Armenia. So, you have to have fleets in the eastern end of the map to begin with.

When those fleets are connected, trading with the Byz becomes a treasure trove and a solid base for expansion. Antioch is making more than 3,000 florins a year in trade income alone in my current game. The year is 1192. I have 82,000 florins in the treasury, at least two citadels building and at least two fleets in every Mediterranean sea zone, plus some in the Atlantic.

With an income like that, let the Crusades come. I thoroughly defeated a German Crusade long before making that kind of money.

==================


Turks do depend on horse archers and fighting with horse archers, frankly, takes a certain knack and a lot of practice..

Some people can fight a whole battle with nothing but horse archers, but that's far beyond my skill level.

It's perfectly feasible to drive the Egyptians as far as the Sinai without even fighting a battle, since their armies of mostly peasants will usually withdraw. However, eventually you are going to have to fight them and they will have plenty of camels and Nubian spearmen. This is bad, because camels will more than trump any Ghulam bodyguards or Armenian Heavy Cavalry you have, and Nubians are much better than your regular spearmen.

I build a Jihad very early, let the Eqyptians re-take the Sinai and then declare Jihad on the Sinai. I also hire some well-armored mercenaries. The Jihad gains strength marching through Syria and Palestine. The showdown in Eqypt has me winning by sheer force of numbers. After that, I can afford better troops.

============

Phase one: Horse archers with basic spearmen, plus desert arches, and a few camels. Turcoman horse start replacing the cav archers.

Phase two: Turcomon horse completely replace the horse archers. Saracen infantry replace the spearmen. Turcomon foot replace the desert archers. Armenian heavy camels start replacing the camels, but keep some camels around. They're good for killing crusader knights.

Phase three: Ghulam cavalry starts replacing the Armenian Heavy Cavalry. AHC have a wonderful charge, but can't melee. If the enemy doesn't break in the charge and the AHC can't re-form to charge again, the AHC are in serious trouble.

===========

5 Saracen infantry, 5 turcoman foot, 2 Ghulam cav and 4 Turcomon horse is my typical army until I can afford better units.

============

Finally, it should be mentioned that Syria produces +2 assassins.

[Imperial Buffoon]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ Mar. 19 2004,09:53)]5 Saracen infantry, 5 turcoman foot, 2 Ghulam cav and 4 Turcomon horse is my typical army until I can afford better units.
I tend to use something similar but with some futtawas (2) replacing 2 turcomans if I have them and 2 gazis replacing 2 sarracens. When attacking, it's worth replacing one of the sarracens by muwahids.
Compared to Doug-Thompson's army, mine has a weaker core but is more mobile (gazis are fast) and has better morale. Plus, gazis are really cheap so if I can, I tend to have a couple in reinforcement as well.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Here's what I have been doing:

In the first few decades, or even for a century, I didn't add to my armies. Just built my starting provinces up steadily. Once I was near 100,000 florins (farms provide great income in the Turkish/early provinces), I slowly started taking on arms.

I didn't wage war at anybody; neither the Byz nor the Egy. Instead, built dozens of âlims and flooded the entire Mediterranean world with them, starting from my own lands.

I tried to persuade both the Egy and the Byz for alliances, at the beginning to no avail because of my kings' poor influence, but it proved correct lately.

The Egyptians were too greedy and attacked me from the south, which ended up with them eliminating and me holding the eastern shore and Egypt for level 2. After my first victory or second, the Byzs accepted my alliance proposal.

Level 2 involved building up Egypt against the inevitable Spanish assault, which indeed happened after they customarily ate up the Almos --a rule without exception in my games Also at this stage, I started building my navy and filled the eastern Mediterranean parts.

I had to start over two or three times because the Horde blew into Armenia. That was inevitable death in my strategy but I noticed that the AI is cheating It plays as if it knows about 1230 and the Byz leave Khazar and Armenia empty http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif I imitated that and retreated every single soldier from Armenia in 1229. It worked They invaded Khazar and we haven't engaged yet. ;)

I built all upgrade facilities available so that my armour is level 2 while my rivals' are either absent or partly level one.

Units:

Turcoman Horses are preferable over Horse Archers, while Desert Archers keep up pretty well too. You can use them in melee against routing or really downgraded units. Forget Bedouin Camels unless with really high valour. They route on sight of marching peasants

In general, Turkish/erly units are inferior to everything else around. That's why I didn't engage in hostilities with the Byz from the beginning. However, once you get to Ghazi Infantry and Futuwwas, they pay off well.

Make a lot of spearmen and Muwahhid Infantry in defensive positions.

Hth http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
_

[katank]

why not take on the byz early?

unless you want to make the game hard, take out the byz as soon as you are done with the eggy.

my HAs can run circles around the byz inf and shoot up that unit of varangs while they can't touch me.

then, my heavy mercs roll over the remainder.

the byz have no good production facilities early on except for const. and can be overrun easily after you take trebizond and then const.

popping out a jihad and letting the byz take it back and then hitting it with the jihad also helps for some nice troops and can help ensure you hold const.

once you have const, secure the rest of asia minor and throw the byz back to their measly islands.

I use const. for silver armored ghazis which have much better survival rates and then to build a grand mosque for spamming Imams who naturalize the byz provinces and help improve zeal for better jihads.

I actually find it preferable to build a load of jihads in a province, leave a border province weakly guarded and tempt an attack, retreat my unit to the castle and then launch all my jihads at it which hits the province in a turn due to my navy and then provides a huge influence boost for my new sultan and also give some kick ass troops for cheap.

the eggy are gone for 50 years now and the byz are relegated to a pitiable force wiht no navy stranded on cyprus and forced to trade with me while I make money from their homelands http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Fragony]

Isolate the Egypt King second turn, and kill the bastard. Why the turks are regarded as hard in early is beyond me. You can overun either egypt or the byzantines in 3 years.

[Nowake]

Also, can someone tell me a good Turkish army? I read Horse Archers are the key and historically (if i am not mistaken), the Turks massacred the Crusaders using Horse Archers.

Use them for luring the enemy, but don't try to shoot a unit down with HA, they'll dissapoint you. Use Armenian Heavy Cav and Ghulams, Saracan Infantry and arbs. When late era comes, you're going to have janissary http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Why I didn't take either before building myself up is because of external factors. The crusades suck once you get at the initial shot area of them.

I let them die off in Ortho. provinces or get repelled/weakened by the Egys.

Two years ago, I played Turks in high taking Byzs before the first decade was over.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
_

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 19 2004,19:24)]why not take on the byz early?
Once the Egyptians are down, the timing of taking out the Byz is up to the player. The question was, who to take out first. I vote for the Egyptians.

[katank]

depends though. although it may not matter to you, I find my self wanting to take const. for the income and also make sure they can't even produce byz inf.

giving the byz time to tech up is a very bad IMHO. You can pump turc horse with very low reqs while the decent byz units require far more so taking const. early would be the easiest time.

as well, I don't even need to disband my mercs who survived the egyptian campaign but I can use em directly against the byz.

Also, how can you resist getting a grand mosque up or having silver armoured ghazis?

spamming Imams for better jihads and produce tons of muslim revolts is cool and silver ghazis pulverize enemy troops and actually make it back in semi reasonable numbers

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 22 2004,20:44)]Also, how can you resist getting a grand mosque up or having silver armoured ghazis?

spamming Imams for better jihads and produce tons of muslim revolts is cool and silver ghazis pulverize enemy troops and actually make it back in semi reasonable numbers
Now that's the best argument for Byz first I've heard yet.

Building a fort-keep-mosque-castle-fortress-citadel-grand mosque is a real pain. Don't forget that Heavy Jannisary infantry in the High Period onwards, either -- which requires a military academy and all the spear upgrades, too.

I remember the first time I used JHI. People had raved on this forum about how great they were, so I sent them straight up a hill to see.

The Sicilians charged them -- with 200 peasants.

The pitchfork crowd didn't just get beat. They evaporated on contact. You could have run a small engine on the steam.

I think the JHI lost four people out of 200. The next effect of the peasant attack was a delay in the uphill march by about 10 seconds, mostly to let the fleeing peasants get out of the way. The JHI then killed or captured about half the Sicilian army while everybody else tried to help..

Imans are great. The combination of high-zeal provinces they create, a sultan who boosts his piety and influence with successful Jihads and control of the sea is an incredibly powerful combination.

One of the great things about Jihads in high-zeal provinces is the good units you get. You get large numbers of cheap ones, but you can simply disband those. I get tons of Janissary Archers and a few Janissary Heavy Infantry with Jihads. I pick then out after the Jihad's over like gold out of a pan of gravel.

I play with huge units, so the more partial units I get that I can rebuild as complete ones, the better. I'll often run a Jihad from Arabia, for instance, through a province that has some JHI in it just so they'll pick up a few and create another unit.

[dragonchr15]

Thanks for the replies, they helped alot.

After much though, I attacked Egypt first as suggested earlier and had little trouble slaughtering their peasant/Nubian army. But then, I was hit with a crusade from France and Germany at the same time and to make matters worse, the Byzantines broke our alliance and sank all my ships. I reloaded from a previous point (I knew I was going to get slaughtered for I had no real army), and attacked Byzantine first and I am doing ok for now.

What type of army do I need to take on Byzantines? Also, does anyone here ever do a Braveheart style charge by selecting all your troops and double clicking behind the enemy and watching the action? When would such a tactic be recomended? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

Guess we should have mentioned that attacking Egypt first requires a pretty quick build-up afterward to be ready for Crusades, huh?

Sorry about that.

[katank]

well, I think you should pull all troops to syria on the first turn and then attack the eggy on the second.

going with this, I was able to wipe out the eggy at around 1092.

heading north, I start war with byz in 1095 or so and typically get const. by 1100 or so.

I then clean up asia minor and consolidate into building econ.

by this time, I don't have a navy for byz to attack or chance for them to double cross me.

also, it's physcially impossible for any catholics to launch crusades at me in that time frame unless it's the spanish and they teched straight for crusades.

Perhaps you don't like toplay with my breakneck rush style but I find no problems that way.

for the byz, if you have strong mercs, then head on charge is OK but skirmishing is really the best.

If you have loads of merc heavy inf and cav then you can do head on charge and win.

beware of supa katanks though as they may signlehandedly chew up half your army.

use javs on em. also, if you play VI, hire some druzhina as they are almost always available and dismount them int 60 men FFK which are absolutely fab at chewing up most anything that moves in early.

[katank]

thanks for doug thompson's comment but I still believes in that as more of a byz fast comment.

If I go byz first, my muslim brethren the eggy like to back stab and then I'm between a rock and a hard place.

they get time to mass darn nubian spears and peasant and desert archers which is not cool.

also, I might not be so sure of sultan ransom opportunity in antioch if I go after the byz first.

I love the guaranteed 10k or so of ransom as it finances my rushing strategy and later for economy.

[dragonchr15]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 23 2004,19:37)]Perhaps you don't like toplay with my breakneck rush style but I find no problems that way.
on the contrary, your strategy sounds most intriguing and insane enough to work. But do you just burn your way through Antioch, Tripoli, Palestine, Arabia, Sinai, and Egypt in 10 years with just your initial starting troops? And how can you take Const by 1100? The game starts in 1095 unless im mistaken.

[katank]

nope, game starts in 1087, the death of william the conqueror.

my starting troops are enough to take first palestine adn tripoli, trapping their sultan in antioch which I attack on the next turn for the ransom.

I use the network of inns that the eggy leave behind to hire some troops to be my spear head.

I then take sinai to trap the eggy sultan in either arabia or egypt and then attack him to get another ransom.

I always have a moving wall of best general leading merc force attacking every turn while my king brings national troops behind for sieging and initial pacification of populace while a contigent of peasants move behind to pacify.

This works really well and builds up my general.

The strategy does work. I played at least 3 Turk games this way and my most recent case had me sacking const by 1100.

I've perfected my Turkish start now and by targeting carefully ransom opportunities of sultans and emperors, managed to also accumulate 27k in my treasury by that time even when using two stacks of mercs try it, it works http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Jamais Le Dimanche]

I attack Egypt First The Egyptian King starts in Antioch.
I move all me units into Syria and Edessa. I attack from Syria into Tripolis, which is usually abandoned by the Egyptians, stranding their King in Antioch. I then attack Antioch from Edessa and Send half of my forces in Tripols back into Syria. This usually results in the capture and the ransom of Egyptian King for 10,000 florins give or take.
If you spend wisely and build some inns, you can then lure the new Egyptian King into Palestine and do the same thing over again by attacking through Arabia and Sinai stranding their King in Palestine, getting a second ransom. This puts a heavy crimp in the Egyptian Economy.
I then consolidate and concentrat on Byzantium.
Occaisionally the Byzantines will attack in collusion with Egypt, so you have to do all this as quickly as possible.

Note than early Turkish units are all light, so build quickly to upgrade to Saracen Infantry and Futuwwas befor taking on Byzantium aas their infantry slices through the regular spearmen easily.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 23 2004,19:37)]well, I think you should pull all troops to syria on the first turn and then attack the eggy on the second. (etc.)
The blitz katank describes is very feasible. We Eg beaters ignored the time element in earlier posts, it appears.

You should manage your own taxes, IMO, to avoid revolts, but I invade Tripoli and Antioch on the second turn I don't get the kings ransom as regularly as katank, but I use huge units. Maybe that has an effect. Maybe it doesn't. I don't seem to have as many units to spread around all over the map and catch the guy. When I do catch up to him, his successor won't pay the ransom.

Still, I grab Antioch and Tripoli on the second turn. Then concentrate troops in Tripoli on turn 3 and take Palestine on turn four. (Don't leave anything in Rum or Armenia but peasants. I haven't been bothered by the Byz yet.)

Notice that you've grabbed most of the Middle East before the Egyptians have had time to build a fort.

By turn five or six, you can attack both the Sinai and Arabia. None of this requires beating the comp in a battle. The Egyptians just withdraw because peasants can be shot to pieces by horse archers, and the AI knows it. So, don't fill your army with trash spears and peasants, which would be wiped out by Nubians. All those units do is encourage the Egyptians to fight.

Now it gets interesting. As katank mentions, there's an former-Egyptian inn within Palestine. You can hire mercs and have a big battle in Egypt. Or you can bide your time a bit, build a Jihad in Rum, withdraw from the Sinai and declare Jihad to get it back. The Jihad gains troops marching through Syria and Palestine. Then you add some mercs and simply overwhelm what's left of the Eqyptians.

Whether or not you can turn right around and attack the Byz is TOTALLY dependent on whether you got a king's ransom.

[katank]

well, this is kinda relying upon my knowledge of the game engine but the AI sultan always tries to move from antioch to tripoli on the scond turn and thus if you attack antioch and tripoli, he is able to run to palestine.

for some reason, with kings at least, the province they can retreat from is the one they try to go to.

thus, by taking tripoli and palestine, he has to retreat back to antioch, trapping him for a guaranteed ransom.

I thus feel that the Turks have the best starting position in early, esp. on the higher difficulty levels as money is my biggest issue on the higher difficulty levels.

the ransom is also sizeable as the eggy sultan would also have a heir by then for a total of around 10k which is very sizeable.

he then usually gets ransomed to arabia and you can sack sinai to trap him again.

I actually manage to ransom the sultan twice and total of something like 6 eggy princes during a blitz once and along with trapping of byz emperor, got 27k sitting in my treasury even after the extensive merc use to gain the continental lands of the eggy and byz.

notice, blitz technique requires extensive peasant pumping to maintain loyalty and seeking out super scary govs even if they are dumb (you can always strip them of the title later).

[PseRamesses]

I actually play the Turks in the same fashion as Katank and in 75% of my games isolate the egyptian sultan twice. It´s the easiest way to start a Turk campaign.

[Gregoshi]

Welcome to the Org Jamais http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif and thanks for your contribution to the discussion. May you have many more.

Looks like we have the start of an Eg Beater club bent on overthrowing the yoke of Egyptian rule in the region. You start by pancaking them with Syria and Edessa them up. Once their defenses are cracked and their king poached, your war with the Eggies is over easy. If the Byz attack, you'll have to scramble to meet that threat. Just keep your sunny side up and be hard boiled with the dastardly Byzantines.

Check please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Mar. 25 2004,08:06)]Welcome to the Org Jamais http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif and thanks for your contribution to the discussion. May you have many more.

Looks like we have the start of an Eg Beater club bent on overthrowing the yoke of Egyptian rule in the region. You start by pancaking them with Syria and Edessa them up. Once their defenses are cracked and their king poached, your war with the Eggies is over easy. If the Byz attack, you'll have to scramble to meet that threat. Just keep your sunny side up and be hard boiled with the dastardly Byzantines.

Check please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The pun may be the lowest form of humor, but I still have to admit that was pretty good.

===============

Boy, don't I feel stupid for not getting $10K ransom per game.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ Mar. 25 2004,09:00)]The pun may be the lowest form of humor, but I still have to admit that was pretty good.
Weren't you ever told not to feed animals lest they follow you home? Same applies here.

Follows Doug...


BTW, back on topic, I'm getting ready to start a new campaign and the Turks are #1 on the list of who to play. I got an indirect taste of their campaign thanks to Grothgar's MTW Interactive AAR game (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=4705;hl=aar). It was very much fun and I'm sad it didn't progress very far, but I hope Grothgar's real life troubles have gone away. Anyway, it got me interested in the Turks. Needless to say, me being me, I will totally ignore the advice given here and forge my own path. Then when I get my head handed to me on a platter, I start over and do it the right way. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Crash]

Thanks for the great tips, Katank. I'm still learning how to play the Turks now, looking for new challenges.

I have the most trouble with the frequency of Crusades that come through my lands, immediately followed by the GH arriving in Armenia and Georgia. Even if I beat the Byz and the Egyptians one-on-one, I get hammered by Crusaders and Mongols. It gives me a lot of new found respect for the real Ottoman empire.

Personally, I tend to favor the quick strike against the Byz, let the Egyptians fight off the crusaders for awhile. Once Constaninople is secured, then take grab Antioch and Tripoli before finally taking out Egypt.

The Turks are great fun, but take a lot of effort.

[Hakeem928]

I just tried the 'ransom trick' three times in a row and neither time did it work. Every time, I moved all my forces to Syria on turn one and invaded Tripoli on turn two, and every time they reinforced Tripoli with the Sultan from Antioch, and then proceeded to retreat him to Palestine. You guys must be special or something

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

You have to invade Tripoli and Palestine at the same time.

[katank]

invasion at the smae time on the second turn is key to trapping the sultan.

this means you capture him on third turn and 10k ransom by 1090 makes even the expert level quite a bit easier as I can win most battles agaisnt crazy odds but can't just pull cash outta my @ss.

I think byz first is great and everything but 10k ransom that early guaranteed is too hard to risk losing.

also, the ransom + inss left in plaestine means mucho mercs with which to kill those crazy katanks that the byz field.

then, flood with imams, silver ghazis, etc. for a nice game.

I never have problems with GH when starting in early.

however, today, I forgot about the horde in my high turk game and had my @ss handed to me.

One ways to counter the horde is to have a gazillion Jihad markers around, retreat to castle and the launch all the jihads at the GH.

I was able to outnumber the GH with this tactic

chessy variation,

take the provinces, convert them to 100% muslim using Imams.

assasinate khan and all heirs to make em rebel. shouldn't be hard with 5* assasins from syria.

once rebel, launch a jihad at the province.

rebels owuld hand over province without fight if muslim and this eliminates horde with minimum fuss.

I find the jihad thing even better than bribing for taking them out as the other way is more expensive and you can't bribe them all reasonably.

[Aelwyn]

I just started a Turkish campaign. I started by attacking the Byz. Those Byz Inf are extremely tough when you only have spears though. I hate facing v7 Byz Inf with a3. The best strat vs them are Horse Archers. Dwindle the amount down as much as possible, then hit them on as many sides as you can. I'm on the doorstep of Constantinople right now, after holding it for only 1 year. But I just butchered 1200 Byz that were presenting a serious threat. The Byz are weakened now, and my alliance with the Egyptians has proved valuable since they helped me attack the Byz a few times. Once I kill off the Byz and tech up, I'll take on the Horde and then the Egyptians, then spread up on both sides and envelop Europe.

Well, thats the plan anyways.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 28 2004,21:38)]chessy variation,

... assasinate khan and all heirs to make em rebel. shouldn't be hard with 5* assasins from syria.
If that's cheesy, my name must be Chester the Cheetah.

The last time I assassinated the Khan was -- now let me think. Oh yeah, it was last night. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif This was after I ransomed him and some generals for $16K in a battle that also killed off his heirs.

The combination of waves of Jihads, sea power to allow them all to be concentrated and a gang of 5-star assassins is great. Don't forget the emissaries needed to bribe the surviving rebels and get yourself a nice new army of Mongols. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

I used to avoid taking over Russian provinces before the GH arrives -- until I realized that control, however brief, lets me launch a Jihad later. It's a fount of endless troops. Just delete the ones you don't want.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ Mar. 28 2004,16:28)]You have to invade Tripoli and Palestine at the same time.
Correction: You have to invade Antioch AND Palestine AND Tripoli at the same time. This requires leaving Armenia bare, at least on huge unit size. There's also a small province loyalty problem. Your in the 90s with the newly conquered provinces. Still, it does work.

Not only do you get $11K ransom or so, but you get more income than you can spend the next turn. Finally, the Egyptians are bankrupted by this opening move. Conquering them is easy.

Has anybody ever have a province rebel in the opening moves when loyalty was less than 100 but more than 90 percent? I haven't. I think the game cuts you some slack in the opening moves.

[mbrasher1]

You should attack Egypt on the first turn. Plow south, into Antioch and Tripoli, taking his best money provinces on the first turn. They will not fight and you will have these two provinces plus 10k florins in ransom.

Be agressive with the eggies, you can capture their sultan twice for 10k apiece.

After that the Byz can be manhandled with the mercs found in Palestine. This way it is possible to eliminate egypt and take constantinople by 1100. Your goal should be to have 3 provinces ready for jannies by 1205.

My usual build strategy is
-- cav in Armenia (AHC) and Lesser Armenia (Ghulam Cav), Turco horse (Turco horse) and Edessa for bonuses
-- Turco foot in anatolia, futtuwwa/spies in Syria
-- camels in Sinai or Egypt
-- ghazi in Arabia
-- sarcs in Rum (getting ready for JHI with master spears) and Paletine (unarmoured if going to attack Almos)
-- econ upgrades in Antioch, Egypt, Tripoli

This lets you build buildings nonstop and shift seamlessly from era to era.

The Byz have no other source of good troops but constantinople. But if you attack them first, you will not have enough HAs to deal with their katanks and byz inf -- the only real counter the Turks have at the beginning. The Byz take awhile to get going and by the time they are getting UMs from upgraded provinces, you are knocking on their doors. You should be able to catch the Byz emperor once for 10k. By the time this is gone, your trade will be up and running, from Greece, Const, Antioch, Tripoli, Nicea.

The eggies do not have good troops in early, and are easily scared off. The byz have great troops, but can be countered by those weak HAs. Invade and have fun.

[katank]

Quote[/b] ]Antioch AND Palestine AND Tripoli at the same time.

No you don't. Just Palestine and Tripoli to trap him in Antioch.

Attack Antioch next turn.

This will still get you the ransom.

progressing a turn slower means you don't have to leave Armenia bare and has less loyalty problems due to being able to crank up a few watch towers.

Note: you really want to avoid loyalist rebellions this early as this can kill your early rush dead in its tracks and possibly lose you some homelands too.

Agreed with mbrasher1's builds except for me focusing exclusively on assasins in Syria and using Tripoli for Turc. horse due to valour bonus there.

Also, I tend to use Const. for ghazis with silver armour while also spamming Imams there to prepare for masive Jihads which are GA goals and also the Grand mosque can help get you janissaries earlier.

[HopAlongBunny]

I almost always go byz first. The few times I have gone after Egypt first, the royal family goes down fighting...no ransom for/from dead men http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Malcolm Big Head]

From my limited experience with the Turks it seems that the best sign of an upcoming Egyptian invasion is an offer of alliance. Kill them early and often.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 30 2004,21:04)]
Quote[/b] ]Antioch AND Palestine AND Tripoli at the same time.

No you don't. Just Palestine and Tripoli to trap him in Antioch.
That didn't work for me, katank. The Egyptian ruler moved to Tripoli and retreated to Palestine from there, while the other unit of troops that were with him had to surrender. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

I guess rulers can afford good, fast horses.

No, I can't account for why the same computer program would give different results. Perhaps the places you invade with cavalry units makes a difference. I doubt that my use of huge unit sizes makes any difference.

Also, should the Byz be attacked after the first or second ransom is collected and what's left of the Egyptians left until later?

=====================

I devote Egypt and either Sinai or Palestine to full-time naval production. Otherwise, Crusaders can land in Almohad provinces and march on Egypt, or land in one of the Black Sea provinces and come knocking through Georgia.

Rum: Saracen Infantry
Armenia: Armenian Heavy Cavalry
Syria: Assassins, all the time.
Tripoli: Turcomon Horse
Arabia: Futuwwa
Antioch: Trade buildings and ships
Palestine: Ships
Sinai: Ships and siege equipment
Egypt: Ships and camels

Also, I build Ribalts and Jihads everywhere.

[mbrasher1]

Jihads? I have been a bt disappointed with Turkish jihads. I build the marker but how often do you lose a province to an infidel? Not too often.

I did notice that I got LOTS of decent base units -- desert archers and stuff -- not the 3 units or so common in crusades.

Do you guys jihad ex-Almo provinces? I just do not see how they can be of help, unless you invade and withdraw merely to get jihadi troops. Worthwhile?

Playing as Italy, you can get 4000 troops for the crusade by starting in NAples and marching to Venice through provinces that you have increased zeal to 100%. The Muslims have lower zeal provinces, and you have no equivalent to inquisitors which increase zeal until you build a grand mosque. This usually takes along time.

[katank]

@doug

the invasion of palestine and tripoli should be simultaneous on the seccond turn.

the AI sultan stays put for first and tries to go to tripoli on the second.

your attack on tripoli forces him to go to either palestine or antioch and the sacking of palestine means that he goes to antioch.

once you attack antioch, regardless of whether you capture him on the field, you get to ransom him as he has no friendly adajacent provinces to retreat to.

I like to then take sinai to split the remaining eggy lands and get another ransom usually.

if obscenely lucky, you maybe able to capture him for a third time (I was able to do this once).


I find totally annihilating the eggy desirable as they usually still have a good stack left and can be annoying neighbors whereas the almos are far better neighbors.

[katank]

@ brasher

I find jihads very worthwhile

Imams from a grand mosque are great for improving zeal. muslims benefit from zeal for jihads much more than catholics do for crusades.

I take Const. and build a grand mosque, then enough for silver armoured ghazis and head for fortress level after some econ upgrades.

Note: grand mosque worth it as it's necessary for military academy and having one ensures janissaries as soon as high rools around.

Absolutely spam those Imams they preach the glory of Allah and give you good troops.

Recipe for instant and plentiful army for cheap: (possible cheesiness warning)

build tons of jihad markers in a province.

make one of the provinces close to it rebel. (preferably a worthless one).

launch all jihad markers at it.

This is the greatest strength of jihads in that multiple jihads can be launched at a single province.

furthermore, if the province is 51% muslim or more, then the rebels would turn over province without a fight. (Use Imams to help make this happen).

I have used jihads to even overwhelm the horde. Besides, they generate tons of high tech troops that you can't get for years. You can disband the rest or send them rampaging to reduce enemies.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 31 2004,19:40)]the invasion of palestine and tripoli should be simultaneous on the seccond turn.
But that's exactly what I did, katank.

Maybe I was just profoundly unlucky. I'll try it several times and see what happens, then post the results.

[Bhruic]

Don't think you really have to resort to cheese to win as the Turks. Although I was extremely lucky in my last campaign. I took out the Egyptians first (without trapping the Sultan ;)), then started building up for the Byzantines. Decided to go for the Almohads first, and control all of north Africa, and wait for the horde to distract the Byzantines. Well, 1179 rolls around, and I get a nice The Byzantine Emperor has died message. Unfortunately, he had no heirs, and the entire Byzantine empire goes neutral. I proceed to pick off neutral provinces until I get most of their territory (the Hungarians got a few). With an empire that size, it's pretty hard to lose.

But with that luck being said, I still could have taken the Byzantines if they had been around. The sheer economic power of the Middle East provinces plus the number of trade items that you end up having gives you a warchest that dwarfs anything the computer can try. You can afford to pay for armies that vastly outnumber the enemy. Even if, for some reason, you take more losses than they do, you can afford to. Makes the Turks one of the easier factions to play, imo (the same is true for the Egyptians, for pretty much the same reason).

Bh

[mbrasher1]

Multiple jihads?? Jeez this org is a goldmine.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 31 2004,19:48)]furthermore, if the province is 51% muslim or more, then the rebels would turn over province without a fight. (Use Imams to help make this happen).
This makes Muslim factions virtually immune from civil wars, if played properly.

Players retain control of fleets and Jihads when a civil war breaks out. Declare Jihads and use fleets to move them to rebellious provinces, and the civil war is over.

And you get scores of replacement troops, making up somewhat for the troops that rebelled.

Sometimes, the Jihad units have really low loyalty, though.

So disband them when the rebellion's crushed.

Successful Jihads increase the influence of your leader, which makes future rebellions less likely and increases troop loyalty. So your weak, rebelled-against ruler gets better too.

[Doug-Thompson]

What I still don't know about this game amazes me, sometimes.

There's no maintenance cost for mercenaries while they are in a Jihad. (Same goes for Crusades.)

Turks start out with a mosque in Rum and could start building a ribat immediately if they wanted to.

After they ransom the Egyptian ruler, the Turks can build a Jihad in Rum and inns within Syria and Palestine. They can invade Sinai, then withdraw. Either the Egyptians will take it back or the province will revolt. Either way, there's an eligible target for Jihad.

The Jihad goes to Syria. Load it up with mercs at the beginning of the next move and march on to Palestine. Load up with more mercenaries in Palestine. Advance to the Sinai The Egyptians withdraw.

You probably have enough Jihad-generated archers and other troops to crush the Egyptian remnants without the mercs, but spare yourself the losses.

The next turn, invade Egypt and crush what's left there with a +2,000-man army.

Disband the mercs and go invade Byzantium with your new troops.

One important side benefit is that and mosque and ribat give a total of +3 morale. This gives a big advantage to Turcoman Horse and Armenian Heavy Cavalry made in Rum.

[yonderboy]

This thread has inspired me to try the Turks again, and I had some VERY unusual results.

First of all, I went straight for the Egyptians, and thankfully the Byz's requested an alliance right off the bat. Seems they were occupied in the Balkans from the beginning.

The danged Egyptian Sultan started moving south from the very outset, and so when I assaulted on the second turn, he escaped. Sadly, no ransom $$ to finance the war (yet). I attacked Antioch with a mass of horse archers but sadly was beaten back. Antioch survived w/ a measley 8 spearmen in defense. I captured Palestine and Tripoli immediately. The very next turn, the Egyptians sued for peace. I sat there completely befuddled trying to figure out what to do. On one hand I was already outstretched, and the Egyptians had a lovely 8 (or so) star general sitting in Sinai w/ a few hundred men, AND I had already captured 2 superb provinces (Tripoli and Palestine). On the other hand, sitting around w/ an Egyptian-held Antioch on my flank was NOT a very comfortable option. However, I had no heirs yet (1 year til he came of age) and I knew I was ahead in the fighting, so I accepted peace.

This lasted for an uncomfortably long period of time. It was probably only 10-15 years, but we can all see how war was 100% inevitable. Thankfully, the Egyptians struck Palestine when I was prepared, and an epic battle ensued w/ a grand Turkish victory (well okay, I squeaked by, but since seemingly the entire royal family was there, I was pretty darn proud of myself). The next turn, naturally, I took Antioch (killing 600 peasants is fun) and Arabia. Eventually, I hired about 15 mercenary units in Palestine to ensure that the Egyptians were wiped out. Basically, the huge advantage I had in numbers of decent troops ensured that the Egyptians would scurry back into their stronghold in Egypt and then the mercenaries selfishly volunteered to be my front-line assault troops when I stormed the fort in Cairo. My royal family humbly mopped up after all the mercenaries were pretty much dead.

So far, I've just taken out the Egyptians, and am getting ready to attack the Byz. I need to ask you guys something though. I'm building all the royal buildings in Palestine. Mostly just because I want to. Is there any disadvantage to this since Rum is the home province of the Turks? Also... no one really seems willing to ally with me, except the Byzantines. This is, naturally, another reason I'm not eager to attack them. I realize that a lot of the Catholics are looking at me as the barrier to GA points, but I can't even get people like the Danes or Almohads to ally with me. I'm not complaining at all. This seems realistic in some ways. But when I play Egypt and conquer the Turks (hence, having the same territories), I never seem to have that problem. Is that normal?

Anywayz, the Turks are proving to be great fun. So is this thread

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (yonderboy @ April 02 2004,13:56)] I need to ask you guys something though. I'm building all the royal buildings in Palestine. Mostly just because I want to. Is there any disadvantage to this since Rum is the home province of the Turks? Also... no one really seems willing to ally with me, except the Byzantines. This is, naturally, another reason I'm not eager to attack them. I realize that a lot of the Catholics are looking at me as the barrier to GA points, but I can't even get people like the Danes or Almohads to ally with me.
That is an interesting game. Glad you're having fun with it.

The only disadvantage I can see to building in Palestine instead of Rum is that Palestine had to be build from the ground up, while Rum already had a fort, a mosque, a horse farm and a spearmaker, as I recall. That would save some time.

As for the alliance thing, I think the AI doesn't like to ally itself with warlike rulers. Egyptians finish off the Turks pretty fast with a human directing them, so the penalty is slight. That's just a guess, though.

[Doug-Thompson]

Curse this thread.

Now if I play another faction, I feel cheated because I don't get $11K in ransom on the second turn. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (mbrasher1 @ Mar. 30 2004,19:08)]My usual build strategy is
...
-- ghazi in Arabia
About Ghazis: I can't seem to ever use them correctly. No matter what unit I throw them against, they always start Losing badly and get chewed up. Plus, they stick in there until there are only 5 of them before they rout. I play medmod so I build them in Palestine for +1 valour, and they're usually armored as well. I put them in a wedge and plow them into Order Foot Knights or spearmen and yet they never win. Why do people love ghazis? What am I doing wrong?

[Leodegar]

Quote[/b] (WorkNeglecter @ April 09 2004,07:25)]
Quote[/b] (mbrasher1 @ Mar. 30 2004,19:08)]My usual build strategy is
...
-- ghazi in Arabia
About Ghazis: I can't seem to ever use them correctly. No matter what unit I throw them against, they always start Losing badly and get chewed up. Plus, they stick in there until there are only 5 of them before they rout. I play medmod so I build them in Palestine for +1 valour, and they're usually armored as well. I put them in a wedge and plow them into Order Foot Knights or spearmen and yet they never win. Why do people love ghazis? What am I doing wrong?
their stats are (without upgrades):

Ghazi Infantry Charge:5 Attack:5 Defence:-4 Armor:1 Moral:8

that means they kill a lot of enemys (high attack), but get slaughtered quick (low defense/armor). to avoid that, attack enemies who can´t fight them effectively anymore.
best charge them into the rear or flank of an enemy unit that is already engaged.

just try to pin the order foot soldiers with some saracen infantry or spearmen and manoeuvre your gazhis behind them, than let them charge

[HopAlongBunny]

Quote[/b] (WorkNeglecter @ April 09 2004,07:25)]
Quote[/b] (mbrasher1 @ Mar. 30 2004,19:08)]My usual build strategy is
...
-- ghazi in Arabia
Why do people love ghazis? What am I doing wrong?
Ghazi are fast with armour piercing and insane morale. Head on into knights they will probably lose; hold the knights with a spear unit and run the ghazi in from the side.

The morale and speed makes them excellent flankers; they are also great at plugging holes in the line, their morale will tend to firm the resolve of any units they assist.

With the added kick of a ribat in the province you build them in, or a leader with a morale bonus, these guys will attempt to do whatever they are asked; not something you can say about many units :)

[Haethurn]

When I play as a Muslim faction, I like to roleplay. I pretty much try to follow the directives of the Qur'an, which forbids war with other Muslims. Of course, it also forbids aggressive war against non-Muslims, but I can't be blamed for accidently forgetting such a small and unimportant verse...mwahaha.

I go straight for the Byzantines, liberating Georgia and everything to the west up to Constantinople. At that point I stop and send my armies north to conquer the rebels in Khazar and the regions around it. I might also subjugate the people of Novgorod. Only when I have done that will I take out the Byzantines, and I never, ever attack the Almohads or Egyptians. I let them deal with crusaders coming my way.

[katank]

how did you manage that? No war with eggy and enough time to subjugate the nov?

what difficulty level are you playing?

I remember once when I went byz first. Before Const. fell, my muslim brethren were already lusting for my blood. Only timely and ample use of mercs saved me from the location between a rock and a hard place.

ever since, I went eggy first to get ransom and avenge my grievance.

I never had problems with the almos though.

ghazis rock. Use them as fire and forget missiles. They are almost guaranteed to destroy the target unit but themselves as well. No guarantees on survival at all.

use on flanks to get most outta your exploding missile.

when your ghazis start routing, then you know you lost. (happened in one of the Saladin battles for me anyhow

the only ghazis I've ever ransomed back were 1 man units.

They are great morale wise. However, they are really impetuous. Don't expect them to use them for an ambush. One second I'm not looking, they shot at and are hitting some heavy cav head on and are getting massacred by heavy cav.

[HopAlongBunny]

I agree with Haethurn

Byz first is my preference; Egypt usually attacks me just before the Byz are exiled to their islands...no need to declare war on my Moslem brothers :)

Haethurn is far more ambitious than I. Everything North of the Byz homelands I leave until well after the Horde has been dealt with.

[Haethurn]

Quote[/b] (HopAlongBunny @ April 09 2004,23:16)]I agree with Haethurn

Byz first is my preference; Egypt usually attacks me just before the Byz are exiled to their islands...no need to declare war on my Moslem brothers :)

Haethurn is far more ambitious than I. Everything North of the Byz homelands I leave until well after the Horde has been dealt with.
When the Golden Horde appeared in Khazar and Armenia I just trained an army of about 3000 mercenaries in Georgia and sent them to deal with the Horde. They didn't capture a single province, and I killed Genghis Khan in like the first five minutes of the battle.

[Doug-Thompson]

A play-by-play of katanks Turkish Blitz is in the guides section now, under Turks.

[SpencerH]

I played the Ottomans after a Byzantine campaign where my large empire became quite unruly while chastising the GH (thanks to the naval antics of the Italians, who were unhappy over losing some of their territories, I was continually operating in the red). Therefore I chose to stay as peaceful with the Byzantines as possible (one little squabble cost them Asia minor and Constantinople) and avoid the GH until their conquests had stabilized.

I used a largely merc army for my early conquests of the ME then built infrastructure and trade. Once I could build decent units, I used a typical spear (5-6), futtwa (5-6), heavy cav/ghazi/camel army and pushed east until the Pyrenees. I paused once again to build and re-fit with the elite Ottoman units, then it was all over but the crying.