New Unit - Mercenary Sam(n)ite Warriors

[Barkhorn1x]

At the .COM - the new unit is Mercenary Samnite Warriors. I’ll leave it to all of you to comment on how good/bad this unit is from a historical perspective.

Barkhorn.

[Basileus]

we seem to be getting lots of inof about the roman units, i want to see more of the greek, or the eastern units heh

[Sir Robin]

Cool...

So the Samnites are considered mercenaries?

Interesting choice.

I thought that after 300BC the Samnites were considered "allies" of Rome? Essentially auxillias at Rome's beck and call...

I wonder if this means that the legion's historical auxillias will be classified as mercenaries?

Would be an interesting choice involving the "buildable or buyable" route concerning auxillias.

[The Wizard]

Well obviously the Samnites did not take a big role in Early Republican armies, so this unit and its description fits the bill quite nicely...

Now on to equipment. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif



~Wiz

[Morcini]

hehe...His legs are too white for a southern Italian http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif
But overall, seems quite alright.

[Hurin_Rules]

Didn't the Samnites have heavy infantry? I could be wrong, but I thought the Romans got a schooling from the samnites in their bitter wars, and I assumed the Samnites had heavy infantry.

[Galestrum]

I hope this and other similar units are buildable and not pure mercs as in MTW, one thing rome did wherever they went was take the best local conquered troops and use them - hopefully this and other troops like numidians and spaniards will be buildable by whomever owns the appropriate geographical areas.

That being said, i didnt think wed see this type unit, it is my understanding that the "allies" of rome, meaning those Italo-states allied to the republic fielded the same types of units as "roman" legions.

Either way - fall cant get here soon enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[RisingSun]

I believe the legion's standard scutum came from the Samnites, if I'm not mistaken, so yes. Or was it the Etruscans? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[spmetla]

I'll post a pic of these warriors later today for those of you who's flash doesn't work.

[Hurin_Rules]

Finally got the flash to work and noticed the Samnites don't have greaves; in some historical depictions of the samnites, they have greaves like Greek hoplites.

[The_678]

For some reason it isn't working for me. The whole thing works but it won't advance past the Iberian Bull Warriors. It has worked so far. Hmmmm.....

Could someone post the pic and description for me?

[The_678]

Nevermind. I tried for the fourth time and it worked.

Strange http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Nowake]

Well, I don't get it.

1. The allies of Rome were paid, but not hired as mercs.
2. The samnites were famed for their cavalry, so we should of seen that first I guess.

[Galestrum]

nowake, my sources also agree that the samnite cavalry was the best in all of italy - of course - that doesnt mean CA wont make a samnite cavalry - and if they didnt have it planned, perhaps they will now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

oh and one more thing, we need to slap some leg greaves or what not on him http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

I find nothing worth complaining about on this one

Congrats CA on another realistic unit

maybe that Europa Barbarorum movement is working...

[Nowake]

Just as lobby for now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hurin_Rules]

No one else but me is bothered that they don't have greaves?

[Rosacrux]

Hmm... the Samnites had various troop types. Good cavalry, hardy light infantry and hoplites. Their heavy infantry resembled largely the Greek hoplite and they actually fought as mercenaries for (and on occassion against) the Greek city-states of Magna Graecia. Especially Syracusae has used extensively Samnite hoplites and auxillia during their clash with the Carthagenians in the 4th century BC.

This unit could resemble the light-middle infantry of the Samnites and surely doesn't suck big time (as the BullShite warrior or the Chosen AxeGit or the Samnite Glad do for instance) and I think they got something close to reality - for a change.

[shingenmitch2]

A few thoughts on the Samnites...

Is this a "classic" Samnite of the Rome vs. Samnium era? No. That is why I haven't complained so much about the attire... I've assumed that by this period, the Romans had started "Latinizing" the Samnites, and thus their similarity to the Velites...

Now for some misconceptions about the Samnites:

1. The scutum most likely came from Roman interaction with celts. The early Roman scutum was oval and almost exactly resembled the celtic body shield. (There was also a large scutumish sheild employed by the poor troops in Villanovan times, and by the poorer support troops when rome was ruled by the Etruscans -- so there was some precident for that style in Latium very early on)

2. (corrected, see Gale below).

3. Samnites weren't known for their heavy infantry. What the Romans learned in the Samnite wars is that guys throwing javelins and working in loose order w/swords rather than as a phalanx can be very effective -- especially on poor ground. It was during these wars that the Romans switched from the classic Greek/Etruscan phalanx to their more classic sword and javelin soldier.

4. If this were to depict a classic Samnite the changes should be as follows:

• thick metal "samnite" war-belt
• Shorter tunic, probably with colorful patterns
• Attic-style helmet not a montifortino-style
• A transverse crest of plumes -- anywhere from 2-4 individual feathers giving a pseudo-statue of liberty look (but feathers running across the crown of the head)
• a single leg-greave for the left leg (the leg that is forward in battle stance)

• the shield is essentially correct. Supposedly the Samnites employed a "rhomboid" shield and what they have approximates it nicely.

[Galestrum]

"Surprising though it may seem, since their homeland was in the highlands, the Samnites produced the best horsemen in Italy" - Source: Greece and Rome At War by Peter Connolly page (112)

excellent book with a great many renderings of units, formations and equipment.

Book also goes on to agree with you on the light infantry with javelins and does mention Campania became known for its cavalry.

The Last Samnite war ended in 290 BC, with the game starting just before or with the Punic Wars we are talking only a 30 year time difference give or take depending on the actual start date, so I guess you could possibly still have distinct "samnite" units at this time, certainly if the samnites were known for their cavalry, they would have been used as the auxillary allied legion horse from the area.

On a side note i finally got to view some TC vids and i must say i was impressed and cant wait to play this game

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[shingenmitch2]

Hehe,
someone's got his book open http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

Yah, great book. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif Was going off the top of my head as I have no books here at the grind. Must have missed that part about the Samnite cav., always recall about the Campania as the Italio-cavs.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Rosacrux]

Samnite warriors.

http://www.users.voicenet.com/~mimir/Samnites_6.gif

The two are hoplite-like and most probably, according to most ancient sources, they fought in a similar manner.

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Rose,

Gah, guess I need my books more than I thought....
I'll defer to you Rose, that their heavies fought as a phalanx. I'm starting to think I remember a picture of a samnite with a big round shield in Connolly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif

At least I got the description correct and the hill fighting right.

----------------------------
Just for general discussion then, the "heavies" in that illustration must be shown with an incorrect shield.

The key to hoplite warfare is the shield -- it must be worn across the fore-arm (ala the medeival knight shield) and overlap the soldier in the file to a person's left to have the propper effect. The pushing power of the formation then comes from the soldier's shoulder being firmly planted inside the lip of the shield -- that is one of the reasons for the concave back of the argive aspis. So although the "heavies" (left two soldiers) in the illustration may look hoplite-like but can't fight as such.

The rhomboid shield that these Samnites have is, like the celtic-body shield, gripped by a central boss. It is held by 1-hand and is kept some distance away from the body. Because of the grip, the "push" with this shield isn't the same as from a proper hoplite shield -- and the soldier to the left isn't receiving the "overlap" protection. Thus any "phalanx" formed by soldiers employing this shield is only a much inferior version to a true hoplite phalanx.

What the central grip shield is good at, however, is receiving a javelin volley. Since it held at an arm's length away from the body, if a javelin penetrates through the shield, it won't reach the soldier's body. Whereas if the aspis is penetrated, being held against the arm and shoulder, it most likely hits the soldier too.

Seems the Samnites would have run a line of medium-javelineers w/rhomboid shields, backed by the traditional aspis wearing phalanx.

I guess the looser fighting technique of that first line impressed the romans enough to adopt a similar line.

What I had originally recalled was just that the samnites were loose order troops mediums, and fought the Romans on ground that didn't much allow for the phalanx to be employed. But I stand corrected.

[The Wizard]

I suppose it is from left to right in terms of evolution of Samnite warfare? Very nice picture, however. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

But look at the rightmost warriors emblems. Ring a bell? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif



~Wiz

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]But look at the rightmost warriors emblems. Ring a bell?

A very, very, very, very old symbol that is in use even today, and I am NOT referring to neo-Nazi groups, historians and war museums.

This is not to say I would readily dismiss any reasonable time traveling Nazi conspiracy theories you can come up with... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

Actually the sign was more like corrupted by nazis,its still used in china as some sort of talisman to repel evil and have good luck.I do not know what the samnites use it for...

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ Mar. 22 2004,15:59)]Seems the Samnites would have run a line of medium-javelineers w/rhomboid shields, backed by the traditional aspis wearing phalanx.
Heh, have you read a text by Appian I believe? There the Samnites are presented to be in formations (centuries) of spearmen and pilamen, both with the rhomboid shields.
But the same text claims that the Romans at first fought the Samnites with rounds shields and spears (hoplites apparently), but adopted their enemies equipment and later defeated them with it.

So the point of the shield goes way back. Also, the celtic scutum was not bent like the Samnite version (the Samnites most likely adopted the scutum from the celts). Thus when the Romans came around to get the oval scutum it is hard to be certain whom they adopted the shield from. Personally I lean towards the Samnites.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]Actually the sign was more like corrupted by nazis,its still used in china as some sort of talisman to repel evil and have good luck.I do not know what the samnites use it for...

The swastika is found all over Asia, especially in India where it is a part of Hindu culture. I worked on an Indian film once and one of the actors told me something to the extent that the symbol of the swastika can be found on the first page of each published book (possibly before it goes to print). As with Buddhist China I believe Hindus view it as a symbol of luck and power. Given the migration of religious and cultural beliefs from Asia to Europe I imagine the Samnites viewed the swastika in the same light.

http://www.indiaprofile.com/religion-culture/swastika.htm

The Sign of the Swastika

Throughout India, the image of the swastika is as ubiquitous as the image of the serpent. It appears on Siva temples, the doors of homes, as a decoration on mobile food-stalls, in folk art and on rugs, and exists as a significant design or yantra at ceremonial occasions...

Regardless of the swastika's configuration, i.e. right-angled or left-angled, the symbol's significance does not suffer; it merely indicates two opposing principles, evolution and dissolution...

Like e.g. the serpent, the swastika crystallizes fundamental principles relating to natural universal processes and their relationship to terrestrial life and was designed to evoke an intuitive or emotional response rather than an intellectual understanding...

`Swastika', a Sanskrit word, means literally `well being' which has many variables depending upon the application. As the serpent is the symbol of the creative, energizing force of the Supreme Spirit, the swastika is representative of that life-force being set in motion to initiate the cyclic workings of nature. Both images are thus closely inter-related...

The ancient Vedic seers described the original cosmic creative process as `the churning of the milky ocean' whereby fields of subtle substance become condensed into gross matter; a view that is now widely accepted today in energy-field physics research.

OK, enough. Sorry about the OTS.

Anyway, I think these revamped units, historical or not, look great

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Spino @ Mar. 22 2004,20:12)]OK, enough. Sorry about the OTS.
Enough? Why? Ancient cosmogonies are quite interesting to read... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Rosacrux]

Swastikas have been used extensively throughout the whole world during the ancient times. From India to Greece, from Skandinavia to Central Africa and from the Americas to the pacific - everybody has used the swastika. It's one of the two most used symbols in the history of manking - the other being the cross.

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Krax --

If the Samnite spearmen were set up in centuries with rhomboid shields, then that would argue that they didn't fight as a traditional hoplite phalanx and were instead spearmen in formation, which is significantly different.

[Kraxis]

Yes indeed, but a phalanx is still a spearman formation.

Also, this text was writte a long time after the events, it is not impossible that the remembered events had become corrupted so that a phalanx turned into a maniple or century.