need help with in-depth battlefield tactics

[Navaros]

i have come to realize that i don't really understand the formation system in Medieval.

1. how come certain formations are only available BEFORE the battle? ie: Ottoman, English Square, Steppe Envelopment etc. why can't i access these formations DURING a battle?

2. if my army is in one of the the formations that i've mentioned in question [1.], why do my units always BREAK FORMATION every time i tell them to MARCH QUICKLY even if i have them set to HOLD FORMATION? this is EXTREMELY annoying. how do i fix it?

3. i really don't understand the basics of how formations work. my battles seem to degenerate into a matter of me throwing everything i've got at the enemy and vice versa. i know it's good to try to get behind the enemy with Cavalry etc., however i need a more in-depth understanding of how formations play an active role in Winning battles. right now it seems that the outcome of my battles is largely random. ie: the other day i completely whooped the army in Egypt, then my comp crashed before i was able save the game. when i replayed that same battle, i lost very badly because the Egypt army did not do the same thing they did the first time. in the second battle with the exact same armies on the exact same map, most of my units all got pigeon-holed as they were coming around the corner of an Oasis. i am hoping it is possible to pick a good formation, then use and HOLD formations as troops MOVE FORWARD so that the outcomes of my battle are a lot less random. i need to know of a GOOD way to chase the enemy when i am attacking.

4. what is the best way to minimize casualties when attacking a defending army that's camped on a hill? note: i know i should use LOOSE FORMATION to minimize damage from archers - but i am asking for more in-depth tactics than that.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (Navaros @ Mar. 20 2004,18:39)]1. how come certain formations are only available BEFORE the battle? ie: Ottoman, English Square, Steppe Envelopment etc. why can't i access these formations DURING a battle?
First, let me make it perfectly clear that I do not consider myself to be a tactical expert.

This one is easy, cause I don't use them before or during a battle. IMHO they don't work well. I always put my missiles out in front. I like the 3 line missile first formation but with cav on the flanks. Sometimes I put my cav in front of inf and behind my missiles (works ok in MP to protect pavs from cavalry harassment), but usually infantry behind pavs with cav on the flanks.


Quote[/b] ]2. if my army is in one of the the formations that i've mentioned in question [1.], why do my units always BREAK FORMATION every time i tell them to MARCH QUICKLY even if i have them set to HOLD FORMATION? this is EXTREMELY annoying. how do i fix it?

Hold Formation does not apply to group formations. Hold Formation is useful for spear units to keep the men in nice order ranks, but the command is applied to each unit, not to the organization of the units as a group. Try this, do a custom battle - you take a spear unit and give the enemy a sword unit. Engage the battle on Hold Formation then switch to Engage-at-will and you will see the spear unit break ranks and each man will 'engage-at-will'.

In order to keep the wholegroup in formation, use the Alt-CLick method. Select the units you want to be in the formation - hold down the Alt key and click where you want them to go. They will break formation while moving, but when they get to the destination they will be in the same formation and facing the same direction as when they started their journey.


Quote[/b] ]3. i really don't understand the basics of how formations work. my battles seem to degenerate into a matter of me throwing everything i've got at the enemy and vice versa. i know it's good to try to get behind the enemy with Cavalry etc., however i need a more in-depth understanding of how formations play an active role in Winning battles. right now it seems that the outcome of my battles is largely random. ie: the other day i completely whooped the army in Egypt, then my comp crashed before i was able save the game. when i replayed that same battle, i lost very badly because the Egypt army did not do the same thing they did the first time. in the second battle with the exact same armies on the exact same map, most of my units all got pigeon-holed as they were coming around the corner of an Oasis. i am hoping it is possible to pick a good formation, then use and HOLD formations as troops MOVE FORWARD so that the outcomes of my battle are a lot less random. i need to know of a GOOD way to chase the enemy when i am attacking.

Use groupings.

Rather than try to march across the field never breaking formation, organize your troops from right to left in groups that make sense to you. Find a good technique and then stick with it, so that it eventually becomes second nature so that when things are chaotic you don't have to work too hard.

I use both methods to group units. You can select a unit, then hold CTRL and click on other units; when you have seelcted the ones you want in a group hit G. You can also group units by holding CTRL and Shift and a number key - then activate the group in battle using Ctrl and the same number.

You can also select units of a type using CTRl and M, C, H. CTRL M for missiles, CTRL C for cavalry, CTRL H for infantry. CTRL double click slects all units similar ot the one already selected (so you select a Chiv Knight, hold CTLR and double click and all Chiv Knights get selected

I organize my units so that their relative location on the field is (somewhat) related to the position of the little unit icons at the bottom of the screen - there was a thread on this but I cannot find it - Louis had some great ideas.

ichihttp://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/ichibyzgroups.jpg

The screenie is a Byz army - the units on the right are grouped together and their icon is on the right - those on the left have their icons on the left.

This way I know that if I need a unit to block the left flank I can hit a unit icon on the bottom of the screen on the left side and it will be closer than an unit whose icon is one the right.


Quote[/b] ]4. what is the best way to minimize casualties when attacking a defending army that's camped on a hill? note: i know i should use LOOSE FORMATION to minimize damage from archers - but i am asking for more in-depth tactics than that.

Skirmish. In SP the AI has trouble skirmishing. In MP it is harder to draw a defender off the hill. The first thing to do is to get rid of the enemy ammo.

Never attack with cav or inf in loose formation, this greatly hurts them. The only time I use loose formation on a melee troop is to send a weak unit to within range of the enemy archers and let them soak up all their arrows. If the enemy is on a hill and you can make them waste their ammo before you attack, you are way ahead of the game. Send a Urban Militia or peasant in loose formation as a pincushion.

Work on one side - do not try to attack across the entire front at once. Send a unit up to a defender and when they charge or attack have that unit run away. When the enemy unit chases hit it in the flank - get a unit above and behind it. Work the flank by using a couple of good defensive units to create a block and then funnel your troops up and around the side.

Hope that helps. A long post with complicated ideas that I prolly didnt explain very well.

[Navaros]

ichi thx for trying to help me. i'll meditate on your words.

one thing i'm really wondering about that i forgot to add to the original post is: how do i get ALL of the men in a unit involved in a fight? most of the time it seems that only those at the very FRONT of a unit engage the masses of the enemy and get slaughtered because of it. whereas of ALL the men of my unit were in the thick of the battle, that unit would probably do A LOT better.

the best way i can think of to explain this is: most my units march forward in Vertical Columns whereas i WANT them to march in Horizontal Columns so that ALL OF THEM get into the fray instead of just the few at the front of the Vertical Column that my men always default to and screw me over with :(

also i'm wondering when to change from WEDGE to CLOSE when i'm charging with Cavalry? and why does LOOSE formation hurt Cavalry?

[mercian billman]

Like Ichi I'm no tactical expert.

If you want all your units to be involved in the attack press 'engage at will' I believe a unit loses rank bonus's when you do this though. Not bad for swords and cav but I wouldn't do this with spears. If you want them to fight in horizontal columns make sure they're facing the enemy in a horizontal column. If someone is charging you from the flank and you pick a unit to attack them they'll probably be in a vertical column.

If your charging cavalry from the front (especially your general) use close formation and spread your cavalry 2 deep. I only use wedge if I have a open flank or I'm charging from behind. Loose formation means your cavalrymen cannot support each other essentially everyone is fighting on their own. Loose formation is best used to rundown routers or if you use HA and their involved in a duel. The consequence is your HA won't be able to maneuver as fast making it easier for them to get caught.

Hope this helps

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (mercian billman @ Mar. 20 2004,23:53)]If you want them to fight in horizontal columns make sure they're facing the enemy in a horizontal column. If someone is charging you from the flank and you pick a unit to attack them they'll probably be in a vertical column.
see, that's EXACTLY what i do before the battle. i deploy my men in Horizontal Columns.


then as soon as i have to MOVE THEM they break out of the precious Horizontal Columns and default into Vertical Columns which get them slaughtered whilst all i can do is sit back and say: WTF?

[ichi]

So i assume that you are clicking and dragging your units to deploy them in a 3 or 4 deep formation, and when you double click on an enemy unit then your unit charges, but in the process turns into a column.

OK, before you double click on an enemy unit make sure that your unit is facing them, this will reduce that a lot. Don't ask your men to run a long way, they will be worthless when they get there.

If I need to attack a unit that is a good distance away, I click near it. This orders my unit to walk to the area. Then when it is close, I double click on the enemy unit. Requires a little more work.

Also, it seems that if you single click on an enemy that your unit will walk to it and then charge, on its own, at the last second.

This also may brings up another point. I like to keep my army together in a tight little bunch. This keeps morale up and the flanks covered, but mostly I can move units to help others that are in trouble.

anyway, hope I am helping

ichi

[Lord Rom]

Yes, the only way your 1 unit of troops will go into a narrow formation from their standard 15 wide 4 deep is if you attak an enemy directly to your units right or left. There will not be enough time for the men to get into the wide formation before engaging. Also the dragged line Ichi refered to, if you dont drag it long enough your men will end up in narrow that way also. If your refering to a grouped bunch of individual units, use the alt-left click past the enemy to move all your group in same facing and formation.
Rom

[Seven.the.Hun]

for # 4
if dealing with a smaller army on a hill in defense...
frontal attack by footsoldiers...back them up with archers...
flank on both sides of the hill with cavalry, but make sure the infantry reaches these forces as u charge the cav...and order archers to fire at their middle and back ranks of units, not the front melee ones that repel your attack, as that will kill some more of your men that u are using to die anyway, better not really scold them...this way u can use cav units on one side to flank the melee troops and hurt moral, and the other side of cav units u can use to wipe out their back units, as they are the weaker units and archers, ai tends to repel the numerous infantry with its best units in situations like this,

anyway, this is one tactic that has worked well for me, there are other good ones of course, each battle is different, but when u anticipate the battle beforehand and have replacement units available, the only thing to make sure of is a victory, regardless of casualties, because once its done, the new wave rolls in and u have yourself another country to keep...
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[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Navaros @ Mar. 20 2004,19:39)]4. what is the best way to minimize casualties when attacking a defending army that's camped on a hill? note: i know i should use LOOSE FORMATION to minimize damage from archers - but i am asking for more in-depth tactics than that.
I think that generally formations are useless. I find myself using pretty much the same offensive tactics every time I attack a defended hill. It looks like this:

C C

A A
A A
A A
F F F F F F F F

I put each of my archer-units in a two row,loose, hold formation and hold position an pound the enemys front line, usually archers. At some point they will send foot soldiers or cavalry charging your archers - just move your line of foot-soldiers in front of your archers while they now pound the oncomming enemy charge.
My flanking cavalry are there for two reasons 1. Draw enemy units out of formation and 2. try to hit the rear at the same time as I charge their lines. Usually when my archers have less than 25% ammo left.
Sometimes the terrain doesn´t allow this setup so I just shift from two flanking attempts to one. This one is the scorpion-formation you find in the army-deployment button.

[katank]

I too claim to be no tactical expert but here's my two cents.

never use loose on melee troops as others said unless you are being hit by missile fire. loose formation also gives a lose of formation and -2 morale I believe.

for the cav charge, first wedge for the charge and after the charge hits home about 3 seconds, switch to close and 1 line.

You get an idea of when to change formations when you see the number of enemy stop dropping rapidly which indicates lose of charge and into melee.

hitting close and 1 will switch them into 1 line formation and help them wrap around the flanks and break the enemy up even more.

ideally, your wedge charge would have penetrated deep into the formationa and almost split them in half and then the 1 liner would wrap around the flanks and further havoc, creating severe morale penalty and cause them to rout.



the narrow formations are good for the spears as they get rank bonuses for deep formations and can eat a charge much
better.

on the other hand, attackers like M@A and cav should always be in either 2 line or 3 line deep to enable a wider front to get more men into the fray as you said and a wider formation may allow you to automatically wrap around the enemy flanks and create some havoc. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif