View Full Version : Correct use of swordsmen
Axeknight
03-22-2004, 18:52
As a long-time STW player, I always had swordsmen as shock troops (No-Dachi flank charge into Ashis - MWAHAHAHA). In MTW they seem to be more like line troops. I always put a line of spears up front, then swordsmen behind, to reinforce any weak points in my line and rout wavering enemies. But there must be a better way.
You guys must have some tricksy tactics for using these guys - I feel I'm not getting the best out of em...
My basic defence formation at the moment:
SpSpSpSpSpSpSpSpSpSpSpSpSpSp
Cav SwSwSwSwSwSwSwSwSwSwSw Cav
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Siege Guns
Key: Sp - Spearmen
Sw - swordsmen
Cav - Cavalry
M - Missle troops
SwordsMaster
03-22-2004, 19:16
Too many swordsmen:
My advice is the following formation
CCC WWW SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS WWW CCC
CCC MMMMMMMMMMMMMM CCC
GEN GUNS and ART
where:
S: spears
W:swords
M:missils
GEN:general
ART:artillery
if you want some more specific,look at the Beginners guide by frogbeastegg,and/or the Complete units guide which is also somewhere...
Enjoy
Swordsmen are their best when attacking spearmen, so you shouldnt put them behind your spear line. Your swordsmen should be where enemy's spearmen are, so I cant give you a specific formation. I tend to protect my cavalry from pikemen with swordsmen.
Axeknight
03-22-2004, 19:32
Danke sehr http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
et merci, mon ami
At the mo', I have 4 spear, 4 swords, 4 archers, 2 cav and 2 siege guns per army. I'll now go for 6 spear, 2 swords, 4 archers, 3 cav and 1 gun
Thanks for the help
Yeah Cebai is right.
Its the Triangle.
Sword beats Spear
Spear beats Horse
Horse beats Sword
PanzerJaeger
03-22-2004, 23:47
In a mp game there is no easier way to be crushed than to use spears as frontline infantry. Swords are the norm in line infantry, with spears being secondary to obsolete. High valor swords will do just fine vs cav, especially Mili seargents with they ap bonus.
Although these days if your an experienced player you can use spears with some decency, its more of a personel challenge than a necesity. The point is... spears moral is to low, thier stats(vs anything but cav) are too weak, and their killing ability is vastly inadiquate... I can only speak from the MP point of view however.
http://www.angelfire.com/ab5/WWTanks/Germany/Tanks/Panther/Panther.jpg
As PJ correctly stated, very few spears are used in MP games since spear units tend to have a low morale and poor stats, especially at 10K.
I think it is the same in SP. Spears (and when I say spears I mean Spearmen, Armored Spearmen, Chivalric Sergeants, Order Foot Soldiers, Pikes - any long arm troop) have a tendency to start out low morale, so if you put them with a low valor general they aren't very good. However, with a high valor gen you can get your spears up to morale 8 or even 10, which allows them to hold for a long time.
Spears are primarily anti-cav, but at higher valor can be used defensively to protect archers and hold flanks.
So instead of increasing spears, I would suggest increasing swords. Put your spears on the flanks and use them as anti-cav. In combination with cav, spears are very good anti-cav. Either hit a cav with your cav then march spears into the flank or allow cav to charge your spears and then flank with a cav. Both very effective.
Spears have low attack values, and really are not good for offense, except to hold a position. For example, fighting uphill I might position a spear unit or two to block on my right flank, then push swords and cav up and around to the left to get above and behind the enemy.
IMHO, swords are better. FMAA or CMAA.
ichi
Hmm..
Mili sergants?
Dont Mili sergants count as Spear? or better polearm to be exact.
Those Mili sergats wear a Halbert kind of weapon. Wich is a Polearm.
Just replace Spear with polearm in the triangle ;)
But maybe polearms are too weak in the game.
in reality, it was the knightkiller.
No. Militia sgts and Urban militia are counted as using axes. An armour piercing weapon like the polearm but not with any special anti-cav bonuses.
I dont have the strategy guide but if Im not mistaken they are actually mentioned as being good versus cavalry. So maybe they originally had polearms but was changed later on, although CA kept the polearm looking graphics. IMO I would say that CA clearly left out the polearm units. Historically lots of polearms were used and the game seems a bit poor in that area.
Spears are in general too weak in MTW. The problem is what role the different units should have to justify the use of them.
By making spears only slightly good in killing cavalry (although they do negate the cavalry charge bonus) their role is not as good as a polearm unit. And by being just a bit too weak against swords they cant be the main line unit that is difficult for the enemy to break through.
If played at low florin/equal valor MP games spears do have a better role compared to the higher florin games (mainly because non upgraded swords can have problems surviving a heavy cavalry charge) but overall is still too weak and not something you should have too many of.
SP is of course a bit different and you can encounter very different enemy armies. If you have a lot of chivalric knights then you can use them dismounted if you want infantry shock power and use some spears to cover your missile if you use the knights mounted.
CBR
In SP, the swords barely beat the spears frontally due to the latter's rank bonus and number of men.
In early games, I find a spear/archer army is mostly adequate as massed missles mowed down everything and spears can hold off the cav long enough for the archers to do their work so I have like 5 spears 10 archers and a cav general.
swords should be used to flank and serve as shock once the lines have met to break the enemy.
@ CBR what do you mean no polearms in the game? WHat do you call halberdiers and billmen then?
they are both good anticav units and if the former had decent morale and don't soil their ample armor at the sight of an enemy, they are great killers of not only cav but inf as well and don't fall to non AP missiles easily.
Militia seargents are great units and at V4, can replace swords to some extent.
BTW, the three units I mentionned are all considered polearms.
use them to flank and slice cav into slivers of mangled horseflesh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif although the halbs can easily eat a cav charge head on.
Sociopsychoactive
03-23-2004, 02:37
ok, swords.
Swords are good, but not overly good. When facing spears they excell, but to be most effective they need to be used properly, as explained in froggy's unit guide, but I'll put some in here aswell.
Spears/halbards/pikes ect almost always go for a three or four man deep formation, and most people mistakenly put their swords in a similar block. This is futile, what you want with swords, especially high attack low defence swords, is a long thin line, two deep works well.
As spears kill very slowly, you will hold for just as long, and as your line is longer you will wrap around the flanks of the spear unit if engaging alone, or help out units either side if in a long frontline. This means the maximum number of swordsmen get to attack, killing spears alot quicker, for about the same losses.
Swords Vs cavalry is a no-no. even against light cav if they charge each other the swordsmen will be hurt and demoralised by the initial charge, and even low defence cav will hold for a while, good cav will rout the swords quickly. If you HAVE to use swords Vs cav then three or four deep, and get as many men attacking each horse as possible the moment you have dealt with the inital charge. Flank or rear yeilds better results, but still not very good unless the cav is pinned by a spear unit.
I tend to use swords as an idiot unit, my spears hold the line, my axes go for the genral or the cavalry flanks, my missiles rain death down on important or easily routed units, my swords charge in headlong against the enemy and kill as many as they can before dying themselves. They tend to have good enough moral to stay and kill for a while, good enough attack and charge to get a good hit at first, and bad defence meaning they die quickly. Thie means they are perfect for attacking fortified positions or bridges because propely backed up they will push the enemy back and gain you important ground, even if they do all die in the process.
In the general melee swords work well if you manage to get around the flank and charge into the rear. THey seem to require less distance to get the full charge bonus and then sandwhich the enemy nicely between them and your spears, which may well be close to routing by the time your swords get there. The enemy often routs immediately (and very few actually get away) or they hold and then you have to worry about your swords getting cav to the back, which would be disasterous. Withe high atatck and low (ish) defence they work very well against light troops, spears and missile units, but are useless against cavalry and shakey against axe (it comes down to individual units and numbers). Use them as idiots to charge boldly into the enemy and kill as many as they can.
Quote[/b] ]WHat do you call halberdiers and billmen then?
I would call them too few polearms http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
When a standard western faction have 4 spear units and 3 sword armed (historical questionable) units [EDIT: 5 swords actually with urbans and mil sgts sorry] to pick from while they only have the weird low morale, but highly armoured, Halberdier or the too costly chivalric foot knight as only polearm units then something is missing.
If at least the Urbans and militia sgts were polearms too I wouldnt have too much to complain about heh
CBR
Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-23-2004, 03:42
Quote[/b] (CBR @ Mar. 22 2004,19:45)]If at least the Urbans and militia sgts were polearms too I wouldnt have too much to complain about heh
CBR
You're mixing things up. There is a difference. There are Poleaxes (effectively an Axe on a Pole) and there are Polearms (Halberd and Billhook style - Axe+Spear+Hook). Therefore CA's depiction is quite accurate.
Catholic and Orthodox:
Poleaxes (bonus vs armoured troops):
Urban Militia
Militia Sargents
Polearms (bonus vs armoured troops)(bonus vs cavalry):
Halberdiers
Swiss Halberdiers
Billmen
Chivalric Foot Knights
Swords:
Byzantine Infantry
Feudal Men At Arms
Chivalric Men At Arms
Feudal Foot Knights
Hospitaller Foot Knights
Spear (defend well vs cavalry):
Spearmen
RoundShieldSpearmen
Armoured Spearmen
Feudal Sargents
Chivalric Sargents
Order Foot Soldiers
No Im not mixing things up. Urbans and mils are not polearms. They might be equipped with a long stick + axe but that doesnt make their weapon different from the weapon for example Varangian Guards use.[EDIT: The later poleaxes actually looked very much like a halberd with a sharp point. And the word might even be used in general for halberd like weapons too and not just smaller sizes. Had this link in my favorites.. link (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9939/arms.htm) ]
But from what I have been told, and maybe that is incorrect, the strategy guide says these 2 units are mentioned to be good against cavalry. Someone who has the guide can find out if its true or not.
But doesnt matter if its mentioned there or not. The fact is that the game doesnt have that many many polearm equipped units when historically a lot of infantry used such weapons and that such weapons were good against cavalry.
CBR
PanzerJaeger
03-23-2004, 05:28
I completely agree with CBR. Instead of having so many different classes of spears, they should make more polearm choices as they were used so much. Historically, spearmen didnt change THAT much over the course of medieval history. They were often the forgotton soldiers while the king spent his money on knights/specialized inf.
Hmm. I thought polearms is a general term for arms that are on a long stick. Arms on a pole so to say. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
At least the German word Stangenwaffen (wich literate translate into Polearms) would mean exactly that.
Wich would make Poleaxe just a subgroub of Polearms
Aswell as spears.
Its all arms at the top of a pole (stick)
This can be a arrowheadthing like with a Spear:
http://www.traditionelle-events.de/stangenwaffen/pef_301_.jpg
Or a blade like a so called Glaive (no this isnt Japanese. Its a Papal guards weapon ;) :
http://www.claudiospage.com/Graphics/Weapons/Glefe_1540_Italy_L2830_B91.jpg
or whatever shape sadistic human fantasy has in mind (from left to right: Halberd, Bill, Poleaxe)
http://www.humanities-interactive.org/medieval/chivalry/400/ex018_17a-400.jpg
Oh I dont mind the different spears we have. I think it gives a nice mix of armoured and non-armoured men as well as different quality to pick from (if we actually would use them heh)
Gameplay would overall be improved if we had some combined arms with polearms and spears/pikes instead of this sword hell we have right now.
Spearmen stayed pretty much the same until very long spears/pikes started to become dominant through 15th century. IIRC 14th century we start to see some with very large shields/pavises either acting as cover for the crossbowmen and even acting alone. But thats pretty much it.
Armour (and sometimes lack of it) stayed the same until brigandine and munition plate arrived in 15th century. That and the two-handed pikes (and polearms for that matter) meant the use of shields finnaly died out.
So in MTW we could have most of the spearunits already in early era. Let high era be the era of dismounted men-at-arms with lances/polearms and late era with rise of the pike. But nevermind that... RTW is out in 6 months anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
CBR
Gameplay would overall be improved if we had some combined arms with polearms and spears/pikes instead of this sword hell we have right now.
Something like a fast naginata? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Quote[/b] (CBR @ Mar. 22 2004,19:45)]If at least the Urbans and militia sgts were polearms too I wouldnt have too much to complain about heh
I think you forget that chivalric foot knights at least use polearms as well. You can easily field an army that is entirely foot-based polearms, as appropriate for the Late era.
Lol no I did not forget Chivalric foot knights. I mentioned them in 2 posts in this thread.
In SP you can easily fill your army with such a unit but in MP you cant. In both SP and MP you have the option to get several spears but only very few polearms and both Swiss halbs and Billmen are very faction/region specific.
You hardly give the player a choice on such units when you compare to the spears and swords he can pick from.
Quote[/b] ]Something like a fast naginata?
Thats a trick question isnt it? Only one fast naginata... and thats IIRC Warrior Monks. The one and only unit that I hated and was terrible for the unit balance in STW heh
But yes. Something faster than the heavy Halberdiers and Foot knights would be nice for all factions to have.
[EDIT: here is another link (http://www.the-exiles.org/virtual/www.the-exiles.org/Article%20Le%20Jue%20de%20la%20Hache%20Lesson.htm) on poleaxes and how they were used (lots of pictures) ]
CBR
SwordsMaster
03-23-2004, 15:59
wow,thats really proffesional stuff...
Not only play medieval,but also be able to fight as a proffessional MAA in 12 weeks... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Axeknight
03-23-2004, 18:27
Wow, we have some really knowledgable people here
Playing a campaign as the Byz. at the mo', Byz. Inf are great for skirmishing I use Kataphraktoi (princes, mainly, as its still early era) to lure spearmen away from their lines, then hit em with Byz. Inf that I have on the flanks. I then turn my Kats round and hit the spearmen in the rear (so to speak), so they catch and kill all the routers. Used in conjunction with spears in a front line protecting skirmishing Trezibond(sp?) archers, and Varangin guard, my armies have finally broken the Egyptian and Turkish power in Arabia. We have destroyed these two factions completely and now march on North Africa
Once again, thanks for the stragetic help. The Byzantine Emperor gives you his prettiest daughters for your assistance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
I think everyone does pretty much the same type of deployment for swords and spears. Generally, I like Spears or pikes on the corners and center to defend against calvary, Swords in between and behind to protect the spears from enemy swords.
Generic Early Age defense:
There are usually fewer good sword units in the Early, so I don't like them in the front where they might get routed early.
SP MS SP MS SP
LC AR AR AR AR LC
SW SW SW
HC MC
SP Spearmen
MS Militia Sergeants
AR Archers
SW Swordsmen
LC Light Cavalry
MC Medium Cavalry
HC Heavy Calvary
Generic High Age defense:
Good sword units available now, so they can back up the halbediers and billmen - I put them close to the front.
BI CB HB CB BI
LC SW SW SW SW LC
MC AR HC AR MC
HB Halbediers
BI Billmen
CB Crossbows
AR Archers
SW Swordsmen
LC Light Cavalry
MC Medium Cavalry
HC Heavy Calvary
Generic Late Age defense:
Pikes and halbediers combined with arbalesters can hold the front against any unit long enough for the swords to launch a decisive counterattack either head-on or around the flanks.
PK AB HB AB PK
LC SW SW SW SW LC
MC AR HC AR MC
HB Halbediers
PK Pikemen
AB Arbalesters
AR Archers
SW Swordsmen
LC Light Cavalry
MC Medium Cavalry
HC Heavy Calvary
I always like a few archers because of their higher rate of fire compared to crossbows and arbs.
If the enemy was all spears, my front line would be all swords, unless they have calvary too. If there are lots of trees then I will hide the swordsmen in them because spears and calvary aren't effective in the trees. So the real deployment always depends on the situation.
Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-23-2004, 19:01
Quote[/b] (CBR @ Mar. 22 2004,21:35)]No Im not mixing things up. Urbans and mils are not polearms. They might be equipped with a long stick + axe but that doesnt make their weapon different from the weapon for example Varangian Guards use.
CBR
I never said that UM and MS were polearms. I said they were poleaxe units.
But what you've said was what I was talking about. If the Strategy Guide says they should have Bonus vs Cav, then the guide is wrong.
I agree that poleaxes are included in polearm class weapons. Yes, later poleaxes were very different from fauchard or vouges. They were multirole like billhooks and halberds. However, early ones were effectivelly just an axe on a big pole, nothing else. So, very different in look and role from an halberd.
I also agree on what you say about the evolution of the polearm weapons. In fact, polearms have the biggest variety of any weapon in the medieval period.
And finally, I agree that there should have been more polearm options in MTW. Something like russian berdysh(bardiche), fauchard, vouges and glaives. BTW, have you seen Duke John's reworked units? They include completelly new graphics for FMAA, CFK, SP, SAP, Swabian Swordsmen, etc...
You can see them here: Duke John's New Unit Graphics (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=10725;hl=duke+john)
BTW, great links... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Quote[/b] ]So, very different in look and role from an halberd
Well yes perhaps a bit different but were they so different to justify the total lack of anti-cav bonuses we see in MTW?
A weapon like the Danish Axe were AFAIK used with great effect at Hastings and also later on by the Scots. A big swing with such a weapon is devastating against horse and heavy armour.
That weapon developed into the halberd like weapons we see later that can act as a (short) spear too and therefore one could even argue MTW polearms should negate the cavalry charge as spears do. But that could have something to do with tactics too... spear units generally standing in closer formation than polearm units or that MTW spears is just considered to be longer.
Details that I guess we can talk about forever without coming to a conclusion that is will satisfy most heh. We only have a few parameters to tweak in this battle engine and the current polearm/spear/pike method works pretty ok IMO.
I just checked the MTW unit descriptions for Urbans and Militia sgts and their weapons are actually called polearms. All I can say is Gah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Yes Duke John and his excellent unit graphics. I already had the pleasure to test it a bit for MP although the units were not finished. I wish he would give up his day job and make more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
CBR
Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-23-2004, 21:23
Quote[/b] (CBR @ Mar. 23 2004,13:35)]
Quote[/b] ]So, very different in look and role from an halberd
Well yes perhaps a bit different but were they so different to justify the total lack of anti-cav bonuses we see in MTW?
A weapon like the Danish Axe were AFAIK used with great effect at Hastings and also later on by the Scots. A big swing with such a weapon is devastating against horse and heavy armour.
Yes, but nothing compared with the big spear tips that bills and halberds had. So, not as effective against cav, because a lance could outreach a danish axe easely.
Quote[/b] ]That weapon developed into the halberd like weapons we see later that can act as a (short) spear too and therefore one could even argue MTW polearms should negate the cavalry charge as spears do. But that could have something to do with tactics too... spear units generally standing in closer formation than polearm units or that MTW spears is just considered to be longer.
In fact, you're quite right. They should negate cav charge, because effectivelly they are spears too (and not that short BTW). They should have rank bonuses too.
In fact, I think it's just for the variety of the game that spears aren't replaced by polearm class weapons. CA probably didn't want polearm units to excel in every role.
Quote[/b] ]Details that I guess we can talk about forever without coming to a conclusion that is will satisfy most heh. We only have a few parameters to tweak in this battle engine and the current polearm/spear/pike method works pretty ok IMO.
I agree.
Quote[/b] ]I just checked the MTW unit descriptions for Urbans and Militia sgts and their weapons are actually called polearms.
What can I say? They are wrong, not me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif
Quote[/b] ]Yes Duke John and his excellent unit graphics. I already had the pleasure to test it a bit for MP although the units were not finished. I wish he would give up his day job and make more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I agree. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin2.gif He should allow custom orders for the several MODs in development. Something like Resident Graphic Design Specialist... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif
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