Is Morale Everything?

[Tomisama]

Scanning logfiles using Lady Ann’s latest revision reader, you can’t help but notice the color coding in the morale column. The progression, red, yellow, black, and blue seems to indicate acceptability levels. I read it, dangerous, warning, ok, and best.

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ba/pctscore.pl

Anyway, it got me thinking that I really don’t know much about morale and how important it really might be. What really happens to the morale rating when your general gets captured or killed? If you loose a unit in the line? How close does another unit have to be to be affected? Will it affect reinforcements to that area? How long does the morale drop last?

All I have is the questions huh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Dionysus9]

Yes, morale is everything. Yuuki (Puzz3D) is the resident expert. Yuuki and Longjohn are responsible for most of our understanding of morale.

The death of any men in the unit adds morale pressure to the unit, but as far as I know nobody has quantified that effect. But Longjohn had this to say:
"Morale penalty due to taking casualties depends on

the overall casualty the unit is taking

the rate of casualty, i.e. number of casualties unit has taken in one animation frame --> d(killed)/dt

the moving average of casualty (much like the moving average used in stock market, i.e. number of casualties unit has taken over last few seconds "

http://shogun-academy.tripod.com/dojo_appb_pg5.html

The range of the morale penalty:
"There is a morale penalty for being in the proximity of enemy units. The effect radiates out from the center of an unit in all directions regardless of facing for a distance of about 1.8 tiles. That is a spacing of 48 men or 3600 of the full 5000 range of an archer. A unit with one or more enemies within range will suffer a -8 morale penalty. When there are more than one enemy unit in vicinity, additional penalty depends on the ratio of the number of enemy units to the number of friendly units in range."

http://shogun-academy.tripod.com/dojo_appb_pg3.html

Although the Shogun Academy deals with Shoggy units, I believe the morale system is virtually unchanged in MTW.

I'm not sure if the "taisho" (general) still radiates a morale effect. I think it does not.

Anyway-- the Academy will answer most of your morale questions.

*bows*

Oh, yes, and "props" for the Shogun Academy go to G0ldfishSG (goldie of the Silver Gazwa clan).

[CBR]

***MORALE***

States

Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6

Negative

Loose Formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: -4 (see below)
Outnumbered 3 to 1: -12 (depends on quality of troop, elite only afraid of elite, etc.)
One flank threatened: -2
Two flanks threatened: -6
Charged in flank: -4
Charged in flank by cavalry: -6
Charged by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (during the first few seconds): -8
After the General's death: -2 (for the rest of the battle)
Routing Friends: Up to -12
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking missle fire: -2 (-4 if weapons cause fear)
Unit is Very Tired: -3
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is completely exhausted: -8
Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)

Positive

Protected Flanks: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Enemies Routing: Up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
Winning: Up to +6
Impetuous Charge: +4 (when Knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4
General in unit: +2
Close proximity to general: +1 morale per star
Far away from general: +1 morale per 2 stars


With VI I think wavering and routing might be 2 less.

Morale is everything and a very important element in the Total war combat engine. Knowing at least the most important morale effects is IMO essential but lots of playing experience is important too of course.


CBR

[Jochi Khan]

Hi CBR

Good post m8. Thanks for the information.

...Jochi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aelwyn]

imho protected flanks, and the rate at which a unit is dying are a few of the most important. of course theres flanking and being attacked from more than one side, but those are obvious. but, a unit with low morale will continue fighting for a long time so long as their flanks are protected, and they're not losing men quickly. Units with morale of 4 won't even waiver if they're flanks are protected, and they are winning their fight (ignoring large effects like all other allies routing etc).

[Puzz3D]

Tomi,

Well, I must say that LadyAn has done an outstanding job on that logreader for CWC. The inclusion of the unit stats allows a quick correlation between them and final results. Color coding the morale was an excellent idea, and I agree with your subjective designations for the various color ranges. It's interesting that you already perceive a correlation between morale and results, and I'm not surprised by this. Last night I had an exceptionally good 10k 4v4 multiplayer battle on a custom map with relatively small hills, and out of curiosity I analyzed the logfile with LadyAn's reader. The battle was close fought with lots of fighting and flanking maneuvers. When I looked at the logfile, it jumped right out that all the melee units, both cav and inf, were fielded at morale = 8 with the notable exception that two players had mil sgt which were fielded at morale = 6. No one had Byz in this battle, and I know Byz inf are usually fielded at morale 6 in 10k battles. Total kills averaged between 550 and 700 for all the players. We didn't have whole armies running away and getting 200 kills or less just because one unit routed early. I know there are some people who prefer a gameplay where the battle is lost once the first unit routs, and they can have that if they play at 5k florins.

LongJohn did make some changes to the morale system between STW and MTW, but it still works basically the same way in both games. The general dying was changed. In STW, you got a permanent -8 morale to all your units (allies not affected) when your general was killed. In MTW, you get the -8 morale to all units except highly disciplined units for only a short period of 10 to 20 seconds. I haven't measured the time so I'm just estimating it, and I haven't tried to measure the apparent non-effect to highly disciplined units. It seems to me that I do see a morale penalty to elite units in battles when the general dies. After this time, the penalty drops to a permanent -2 morale. This effect due to the general's death has infinite range and happens to all units simultaneously.

LongJohn has mentioned 75 meters as the range of the proximity morale effects such as outnumbered, flanking and seeing friendly units rout. Prior to his statement I had measured this distance as a radius of approximately 1.8 tiles or 72 meters which agrees with LongJohn's figure. If you are not familiar with the map editor, the range of an archer or xbow is 2.5 tiles, so these morale effects are extending out about 72% of the max range of an archer.

IIRC, the morale is figured for each unit on the 1 second intervals of the combat cycle. It includes effects from all the units within the circle of 1.8 radius. So, if one of your units is within 75 meters of a routing friendly unit (including allied units), it will feel a -4 morale penalty until that routing unit gets outside the 75 meter raduis or rallies if inside that radius. One conventional wisdom of STW was that a unit got an extra morale penalty if a routing unit passed through it, but I never saw an increased penalty and I measured it several times. MTW did introduce the 3 unit classifications of undisciplined, disciplined and elite, and the Strategy Guide says lesser units are considered as 1/2 a unit for this calculation, but that would imply that the number of men in a unit makes a difference and I'm not sure about that.

So, you can see that morale is a highly complex issue, and I haven't tried to figure it all out. Just don't get your general killed and keep your best units up front with special attention to the unit on each end of your battleline that you have something in resrve to help prevent it from being flanked.

This is the same list as CBR posted with some additional info:

MORALE

States

Impetuous: 10 and above
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less than -6

Rout point is -16 in MTW v1.1, and probably moved to -18 in VI for MP. Routed units will keep routing until their morale rises to -6 or above.
Hitting the rally key pumps +8 morale into the unit.

Impetuous units will pursue enemies for longer, and may disregard orders to hold position. Some troop types may charge without orders.

Uncertain or wavering units which are not fighting are less likely to charge, and those who are fighting are more likely to fall back.


Negative

Loose or disordered formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: up to -4 (range = about 75 meters)
Outnumbered 10 to 1: up to -12 (range = about 75 meters)
Outclassed in quality and speed: modifies the outnumbered penalty.
One flank threatened: -2 (range = about 60 meters)
Two flanks threatened: -6 (range = about 60 meters
Charged in flank: -4
Infantry charged by cavalry in flank or while disordered: -6
Charged in flank by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (for first few seconds): -8 to all his units except highly disciplined units
General's death (after first few seconds): -2 to all his units except highly disciplined units
Routing Friends: up to -12 for seeing 2 equal or higher level friendly units routing. Elite and disciplined units consider lesser types as 1/2 a unit for this calculation.
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking casualties from enemy missle fire: -2 for a duration less than the reload of the firing unit (additional -4 for gunpowder weapons)
Unit is very tired: -2
Unit is exhausted: -6
Unit is totally exhausted: -8
Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)
Skirmishing without ammo: -6
Skirmisher pursued for a long distance by equal speed unit: -6

Positive

Two flanks protected: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Two enemies routing: up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
Winning: up to +6
Unordered charge: +4 (such as when impetuous knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4
General's unit: +2
Within 50 meters of general: +1 morale per command star
Beyond 50 meters from general: +1 morale per 2 command stars

Archer and xbow open fire range = 100 meters (2.5 tiles)
Normal infantry marching speed is 1.68 m/s (speed 6)

[t1master]

does friendly missle fire affect morale too yuuki?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

From Kern, yes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Louis,

[t1master]

haha

those guys do have terrible aim, but i've felled many a heavy knight with em.. 'course they're all morale victories, as actual tactical victories are few and far between for the goat... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Puzz3D]

t1master,

Kills from friendly fire seems to affect morale because you can see the icon change to the red arrows. As long as the red arrows are present, you are getting the morale penalty from ranged fire kills. The kills themselves can be significant, and another source of morale penalty. In a test I just ran, two longbows killed 5 varangian guards but 15 of their own feudal knights who were in melee with the var guards.

[LittleGrizzly]

i wouldnt say morale is everything other people would take fuedal foot knights (i think they're called that) rather than fmaa and cmaa i would say it plays a significant role in unit selection though

[CBR]

Well the thing with the foot knights is that they are pretty expensive for their worth, even though they have high morale.

CA decided that 40 men units (even if precisely same stats) would cost 78% of what a 60 men unit costs and it should be around 66% and that hurts them a bit.


CBR

[Tomisama]

Wow An absolutely fantastic response http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif


I believe almost everyone can benefit from some serious study of what you have provided.


I just wanted to add, that in a quick look using Almircar’s Army Builder, it seems clear that;


* Adding Weapons only affects your Attack bonus.

* Armor upgrades add to your Defense bonus, and do improve your survivability (armor rating).

* But adding Valor, is the only way to increase Morale...


If you don’t have a copy Army Builder, I have bundled it with the necessary files.

http://www.clanwarscomp.org/tools/VIArmyBuilderPlus.zip

It’s all self contained, so you can download and extract to wherever you want it to run.


Thank you all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

*bows*

Tomi


Edit: the symbols represent: * armor piercing $ shield ( ) against cavalry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif you

Have Fun

[shingenmitch2]

Something to chew on about morale:

Morale is the only on/off switch for a unit and that is why it is so crucial.

What I mean by that is this: All other factors "attrit" a unit. The unit stays fighting, but loses soldiers... the only way the other factors eliminate a unit is by dropping it from 40, 60, 80, whatever down to 0 -- a rather slow process, and one where the enemy unit loses soldiers too.

Morale is different -- it is on or off. When your unit is not running it fights. The minute it trips to "rout" the ENTIRE unit is no longer fighting -- in effect, it instantly drops the unit down to 0 men. No other stat can do that. (although the other stats can contribute to the morale trip.)

[TosaInu]

Hello,

The Battle Analyzer is added to another server.

http://www.clanwarscomp.org/cgi-bin/catpctscore.pl

http://clan.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ba/pctscore.pl

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ba/pctscore.pl

clan.totalwar is located on another server, it's not frequently used, so processing may be a bit faster than on www.totalwar.

[LadyAnn]

Some clarification of where I got the morale coding scheme.

I read somewhere (most likely a Cranda ([FF]Spectre) post) that at the time (MTW) the morale level for a comfortable unit fighting is 10. Given the lower threshold for routing, I figure 8 is the magic number.

I believe I also read that the useful band of morale in VI is between 6 and 10 (Mostlikely from a Yuuki's post). I would like to suggest modders and CA developers to consider having more units of odd morale number (like turcoman horse) so that morale 7 and 9 could be achieved, making it more interesting.

Thx for your encouragement. I am forging another tool along the line of the logreader. But nothing promise here, as usual (Actually it is a long ago pledge that I kept on postponing).

Annie

[Tomisama]

Ah, Lady Ann http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

*bows*

I just want to take a moment to publicly express my personal gratitude and appreciation for all the hard work and dedication of time required to produce this “most excellent reader” for us to use.

You’re the Greatest Annie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

*bows again*

Thank You

Tomi
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[CBR]

LadyAnn:

Morale is actually very dependant on what unit we are talking about.

A typical sword unit has about the same attack value as defense or one l less in attack (CMAA 4/4, FMAA 3/4) A unit like that will have a much bigger impact on its morale when fighting other swords because the loss rate is high and it will rather quickly go down to 50% or less and get the -8 morale penalty for that.

If such a unit is also used as the main line unit, and is supposed to deal with frontal cavalry attacks, (as it is in 10k+) then high morale is important.

With spears its a very different situation. They are generally used in deeper formations and have a much higher defense value compared to its attack. The result is that spears fight for a very long time against other spears, and even against equal valor swords (depending on quality/difference between the 2 units of course) the fight will be longer.

A chivalric sergeant (CS) will, with rankbonuses, have a total attack value of 0 and a defense value of 7. If we compare that to the CMAA of 4/4 we will get a difference in kill rate of about 1 to 3.5. That means that if they were standing in same width of say 20 men and fighting a unit of its own type, then on average 35 CMAA would have been killed when only 10 men would have died in the CS unit. The CMAA will be reduced to less than 50% before the CA has even warmed up heh.

If we try CMAA v CS then (if we give swords this special +1 attack against spears that doesnt always apply) then they would have killed about 25 CS while lose around 16 themselves. All that within the same time frame as in the first examples. It will after that go faster and faster downhill for the spears as they lose men from the third rank that gives +1 attack/defense supporting bonus. But in general CS will defeat CMAA.

There will of course be chargebonuses and random combat results but the numbers calculated here does look very close to my experiences and tests.

My overall conclusion is that high morale is not that important if heavy spears are involved more in battles. And as long as they dont fight good swords that have one more valor or more, then high morale (6-8) for the spears are not needed.

I have used morale 6-8 spears/pikes in earlier mods and it actually seemed just way too high as it was very difficult to rout them. In my Community mod I have decided on a general +2 morale increase and IMO it works nicely.

I have even had one guy telling me the mod made his men fight longer. And why was that? he used morale 2 only saracens but they faced other enemy spears and CMAA just with no upgrades.

It is of course a matter of taste. Some people prefer armies of mostly swords or that units fight to the death.

I have for a long time now felt that being able to upgrade units creates an arms race, that leaves out the lower morale units and drastically limits unit choice. If units stay within the stats/morale there were designed with then its a very different game.


CBR

[Puzz3D]

I think you need morale 6 on the spears. I've seen 100 man v1 order foot (morale 4) rout without even fighting, and they weren't flanked. They just saw routing friends and were outnumbered. In 10k, swords are walking around with morale = 8 while you have to baby morale 4 spears. Before the swords got the hidden +1 attack bonus, pushbacks and cost increases to spears you could use spears as the front line, but you can't do that now and survive. Besides CBR, you were one of the first players back in Dec 2002 to demonstrate in online play that the spear front line was inadequate when confronted by swords. It remains inadequate because VI was an across the board +2 morale rather than an anti-cav inf specific increase. By late summer of 2003, I finally gave up on spear front lines.

We know that a difference of 2 morale makes a big difference in how the units perform. The system is very sensitive to a 4 point range, and yet we have a range on unit types that covers 8 points. I have to agree with Annie on where are the odd numbered morale levels? Half the resolution of the system has been discarded by putting the units on even numbered levels which drives the system all the way from cut-off to saturation with these big steps.

[CBR]

A V1 Order foot in a 10k game is facing V2-V3 CMAA and V3 FMAA and I still consider that to be the biggest part of the problem.

I do remember you commented on your routing spear unit in a recent game and you say they felt outnumbered. I dont think I have the replay but one part of the outnumbering calculation is the combat stats of the units, so when having lots of enemy swords nearby it will cause a bigger morale impact compared to a game where units are of equal valor. So your morale 4 Order foot will rout more easily in a 10k game than in the community mod.

Last spring/late winter we had some 22-25k games where all units were valor 3 and only valor 3. That would be valor 2 only in VI because of the lowered rout point in VI. I know I and IIRC you too felt that morale seemed just a bit too high. Of course the big 8 morale gap was still there but for VI that would mean spears operated at morale 4/6 and swords at 6/8.

I used same morale range for spears/pikes (best pikes actually had 2 more) in MPwars and my experience were that it was very difficult to rout such high morale spears.

I have used spears in 2.01 but I always use them at valor 2 for Chivalric sgts and Order foot. Not just for the morale but simply because I know that if they dont have same valor as the CMAA they are facing they will have big problems.

It doesnt mean we cant have higher morale spears but they would just have to cost more.

Another thing is what are spears used for? I dont see spears as units that are supposed to be sent off the main line without some support. They are big, not very maneuverable but have rankbonuses and negates cavalry charges. Thats a unit for the main line: cover its flank and the best spears will slowly crunch through most of what is sent against them.

Odd numbered morale can be used but if that means that the low quality units are to be 6 while the best are 10 then I see a game of attrition more than maneuver. I dont see jumps of 2 morale for each rate of troop quality as a big problem.

We can always experiment with it for the community mod. But next version of it will be ready very soon. I have strenghtened the spears, for the role I see them used in, without giving them more morale. We will see how that plays.


CBR

[Seven.the.Hun]

is moral everything...um, no, victory it everything
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Puzz3D]

CBR,

I'm thinking in terms of the regular game as it's currently played. You can't field a spear front line in the regular game and do well. If you could, the morale 4 would be ok because the spears all support each other's flanks and that raises morale +4 points for two flanks covered, so that v1 order foot is operating at morale 8 in the line. However, if you put spears on the flanks and try to use them as individual units, they drop back to morale 4. So, I agree that if swords were weaker the spears could go back to the front line and be ok. However, the swords are not weaker, and when they were less effective against spears in mtw v1.0 people complained about that. I don't really see a problem with spears holding a long time since they are a defensive unit and don't kill fast. What good is a defensive unit that doesn't hold?

[CBR]

Yes the regular game doesnt have much use for spears. If we just had the cheaper 1.0 spearcosts, that would have improved things a bit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Right now Chivalric sgts and Order foot has be V2 in 10k games to be of any use. It can be done but comes at a cost in your cavalry and even with V2 a chivalric sgt might have problems against a V3 FMAA which is a very standard unit.


CBR

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Seven.the.Hun @ Mar. 27 2004,14:04)]is moral everything...um, no, victory it everything
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
yes but you can't gain victory when your men are running away... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

There is no victory without morale.

[Tomisama]

Agreed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gifhttp://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

And as Mitch said above, Morale is a switch, a fight or flight switch. If you can learn what flips the switch, and how not to get your switch flipped, you will have your victory http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dionysus9]

funny...love and war are so similar.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif