Your dreamed MTW [Archive]

SwordsMaster

03-23-2004, 13:23

As there are a lot of post critisizing MTW and lot of people modding it for their own likes,that made me think of how would be the perfect MTW,without actually moving int some sort of Matrix type computer....

Thats my vision:

Mix together Europa Universalis 2 and MTW,so you manage the diplomacy and are able to conquer the whole world,although i know it would take a lot more of time and space (6 cds?),but you can always put in on a DVD...

The way you conquer the world would work differently for every faction(obviously), and each of the provinces described would be a micro campaign on its own (if you played Lords of the realm 2,you know what i mean) and once you conquer every province ,you go to a bigger map,when the map you conquered previously would be counted as a single province...

So, if you're conquering Spain, you would start with Castilla divided into 4 or 5 factions which you should conquer to advance to conquer Leon, then go to the Europe map, and once you have ,say 30% of europe, go to the world map...:lost:

Ok, its starting to be too long, so im gonna leave it...
Post you own versions, and maybe someone will mod it at some point http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

Gregoshi

03-23-2004, 20:22

Interesting idea, but you lose me with the world conquest theme. It destroys the realism. In MTW, I don't like that it is so easy to conquer Europe. Is it EU2 that people comment as having a better diplomacy system than MTW? I'd go along with that.

Axeknight

03-23-2004, 21:38

I agree. Better uses of diplomacy and spies would make MTW even better. I don't think there is much that can be done to improve the battlefield element, but the campaign map could benefit from some tweaks.

Being able to plant spies on an enemy faction leader and getting them to convince him to attack another faction. Perhaps an ally, who has lands you want but can't legitmately attack, so you need to cancel the alliance by getting the ally to make war on another ally, then allying with the attacked faction if you get my meaning...

Also, I want a new strategic agent. One who can spy better than a spy, assassinate better than an assassin, and form stronger alliances than a princess marrying. Yes. a court jester.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

nightcrawlerblue

03-23-2004, 21:46

I want a complex diplomacy system. I want to be able to trade troops/provinces for Florins, make ceasefires easier and alliances harder to make, and to be able to demand stuff/offer tribute. I'd like more diplomacy than that but I would be very happy with just that.

SwordsMaster

03-23-2004, 22:14

Its not easy at all if thats what you´re worried about Gregoshi....After some 4or5 years of war, you start facing rebels in every single province,no matter how high the loyalty....it depends on how many men from that place you took to the army and how succesful were your battles...

Give it a try anyway,its really tough after you reach some point,and gets tougher and tougher...

But still, the diplomacy is the real weak point of all Total War games...At least something like CivIII would be so much better...

Sociopsychoactive

03-23-2004, 22:17

I definately agree on the diplomacy thing, tributes and demanding danegold are key concepts. (for americans and other aliens, danegold is the 'we won't kill you if you pay us this' money.

And I also agree that ceasefires should be easier to make, though alliances should remain shakey. When you back a faction into a corner they would probably do anything to stay alive, rather than refuse treaties and charge at you.

I like the idea of mini provinces within provinces, heres how I see it...

Take scotland. In realisty it is made up of loads of small clans, glens, cities and so-on, not one large city to be taken, but lots of smaller ones. So, you invade scotland and I see two ways of doing it. Unless they were prepared yoiu have to fight several smaller battles rather than one large one (meaning the troops were scattered and not centralised)

or,

you have to take each little bit, complete with crappy strongholds (borrowed from VI, so fortified villages and such) but you can do it all in the one turn, and still conquer the whole place in a year, just not in one battle.

Maybe it would just be annoying, I don;t know.

VividYoshee

03-24-2004, 00:42

Improved diplomacy, mwahahaha

I probably count as one of the 'modder' crowd, but I don't really think there is all that much wrong with MTW. When I'm in a roleplaying mood I don't like that the AI gets unreasonably stupid (even at lesser difficulties) once your empire gets to a decent size, that I think would be the simplest change to the game.

My dream MTW I'm working on designing in more detail at the moment, in the hopes of actually building a bit of it.

Features I would like though are:

-AI remembers who is their buddy and who isn't, and base their relationship with the player (and other AI) on more than just faction size. In my ideal game the AI is concerned with surviving, they will allow you the lesser victory if their own lands remain intact, but they'll fight like hell to prevent themselves from being conquered.

-Related to that, social interactions would become a bit more complex. Don't make alliances easier, in fact, make them harder to create and maintain, but allow the player to show signs of good faith and develop peaceful solutions through some methods.

-Yet further, the AI will cooperate with the player, but it will watch its own back and if for a moment the human tries the old friendly until I send a billion armies at you strategy the AI will be prepared. Similarly, if the human isn't watching, make the AI do the same thing to them. :)

-Make strategic agents more effective, to avoid 'training' (i.e. building emissaries just to assassinate them which is plain stupid and boring...) Increase the ability to counter agents to avoid them getting too powerful (therefore creating a use for defensive spies/border forts for instance).

-Allow 'framing', if your agent is very successful it will look like someone else did it. Don't let the player choose who gets framed though, have it be based on whether there are other countries/agents nearby and be random.

-Have the AI get very ticked at strategic ops (if they found out who did it), to the point of endangering those carefully built diplomatic relationships.

-Put in marraige contracts. If no one wants to marry you because you ticked everyone off, allow the king to give away land in exchange for a princess. The land must be considered valuable to the country the princess came from (no trading Ireland to Egypt...).

-Rework breeding. The heir's stats go from 0 to the maximum of the king (that sired them) randomized. If the king married a princess, the bonus is the addition of half of the stats of the princesses father (another king). Therefore, with marraiges to princesses the quality of heirs will generally increase. Have incest result in a negative modifier (random but distributed based on closeness of the princess to the king). Now that princesses are more valuable (never underestimate a good heir) they become more valuable, possibly even enough to trade land for. Marrying a lady of the court randomly should result in incest penalties, and no bonuses.

-Muslim factions do not get any incest penalty (except maybe a small random chance applied to all generals), as they don't get any princesses to begin with.

-Some trade would be cool, but not necessarilly the same system as Civ III.

-- more more more

Fanty

03-24-2004, 04:34

More of these little powergames.

- Multiple kingdoms
There had been Multiple Kingdoms around.
Wich means, several factions have the same factionleader but still remain independant factions.

The mainexample for this is the HRE.
The HRE is an Empire made of several kingdoms in it.
Wich are:

Regnum Teutonicum (Literate Kingdom of the Teutons, thats Germany, Switzerland, Austria basicly)
Kingdom of Burgundy
Kingdom of Italy
Kingdom of Bohemia

These for example remained independant kingdoms all the time. The only thing that happend was, that there was one guy beeing the king of all of them at once.

The guys then had very long titles.
Liek Barbarossa who was:
Duke of Swabia, King of the Teutons, King of the Lombards, King of Burgundy and Emperor of the Romans.

Ingame this would mean: These factions dont die or are annexed, but your faction leader becomes the king of these factions. This faction however can rebell against a forreign leader and reapears in a realistic way (because it never was gone)

There should also be more bloodline stuff.
I remember one guy who became King of Spain, King of Sicily, King of the Teutons and Emperor of Rome, because the right guys died by illness and he was randomly number one on each of these tronelists.

It even happended that a forreign nations beggs your king to become their king because the land suffers from rebellion and no king in sight.

This happend once, when Danmark had no king and asked the GErman king to take the job until there is a new Danish king. well, he did it LOL

Other way around begged the Germans the English (because the English king had bloodlines to Henry the Lion) and the Spanish (because their King had bloodlines to Frederick Barbarossa) to temporay annex them, when there was no German King in sight, because everyone refused to do the job and there was civil war and dead all around. the inceadable thing: Both, England and Spain refused. Nobody wanted to deal with civil wars for the rest of his life. They didnt want to touch it with a 10 foot pole. HEhehe.

Feudal relationsships
Thats possibly similiar to the mentioned Danegold.

Things like this happend if a country invaded another one. The invading country isnt able to cmplete the conquest and the defender cannot defeat the invader also.

In this case, the king of the defending side can offer to subordinate himself to the king of the invading side.

Sometimes they did it even fro free. If your at danger you offer another king to be his subordinate. And then demand help from yur Lord.

That isnt annexion. Its more of an alliance in wich one side is the dominant one and the others are satelites.

The satelite can however demand help. The Dominant side can demand tributes and (lended) units.

I dont know if this was a widespread thing in ALL of Europe. But the HRE did open such relationships extremely often. Specially between 900-1200

Examples are. Otto II frm the HRE had been in war with France. In wich France offered ceasefire and subordination under the HRE. A perfect solution. Neither side had the power to conquer the other one, but Otto II. had surounded Paris with the French king inside....

Other examples are with Poland subordinate under the HRE.
That however was a backstabbing thing. Polish forces invaded frequently.... after a counterattack the Polish king offered subordination. Accepted. Waited 3 years, canceled the contract and invaded again. Again counterattack, Polish kind offers subordination, Holy Emperor accepts and withdraws once more........

If I read such stuff, I sometimes wonder how damm stupid this was. It must be that the Polish forces couldnt stop the Germans, but the Germans felt too weak to conquer and occupy Poland, garrision troops and fight rebellions for the next 200 years.

Anyways. I miss this kind of Contract ;)

More more powergames and bloodlinestuff.
Killing the right people until one of your people canm claim the right on the trone etc.

Kekvit Irae

03-24-2004, 05:07

My dream MTW is a MTW Mod for RTW.

Phatose

03-24-2004, 07:40

My suggestions, on trade alone:

Distance should be a factor of profitability in trade. It costs more to ship wool from England to the middle east then it does to ship wool to france. Any trade profits for a good are reduced by 1 florin per ocean square between the two provinces.

Land trade - a new province improvement, roads, should be added. This allows a land province to act as a part of a trade chain as if it were a controlled ocean area. However, since land travel is far less efficient, profits are halved if land travel in neccessary for trade, and each land square further reduces profits by 3 florins.

Land travel trade is questionable in security - you can only trade through non-hostile provinces, and if the province being traveled over doesn't belong to you, your profits are reduced by another 2 florins - which the owner of the province gains as taxes.

Hostile ships shouldn't be able to blockade an ocean area on the turn they move into it. The blockade is only effective if they have more ships in the area then the faction being blockaded as well.

A province is limited in how much it can produce in profit. Full value of the trade good is produced for exporting to the wealthiest provinces, while poorer ones produce 75%, 50%, 25% or 10% profits for the poorer provinces. It makes no sense that a province with no money can buy as much as a very rich one.

If a trade good is being imported to a province from more then one exporting province, then each exporting province recieves less then normal - the value each recieves is equal to (80% + 20% per exporting province)/number of provinces. This way, more places exporting always gives more total money, but it becomes far less efficient beyond the first.

If two empires both are trying to export good to a province, then allies get preference. Ex) England and Spain both have 1 province trading salt to the French. If Spain is allied with france, and England is simply neutral to it, the Spanish get the trade profits at 100% and the English get nothing. If both are neutral or allied, they both get 60% of trade good value as above.

SwordsMaster

03-24-2004, 12:44

What ive seen is that there are lots of good ideas...And most of the things you've said are doable without drastically increasing the size of the game,neither the time that would be spend in programming those events...
In the other hand as i see it those improvements are impossible to mod cause the'yre controlled by the core code of the game.

A pity... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

Fortebraccio

03-24-2004, 13:55

What I would like to see in a revised MTW:

- Season based turns

- Turn based order of movement on the strategic board. Faction with most spies/emissaries acts last.

-No single unit production, but crusade-like levies. Each province could contribute with local troops. Armies raised in this way should negatively affect province loyalty until they are disbanded.

-Mercenaries should be hired as small armies, as well, and should serve for a limited amount of time before becoming obsolete.

-Conquest should be backed up by legitimate claims (be them bloodline related or generated by a casus belli), under penalty of a dramatic influence/loyalty loss.

-Logistics. Armies should be entirely supported by the province they are occupying, in absence of a very costly logistical system. Mongols should be the only faction capable of launching unsupported campaign.

-Besieging armies should be able to raze the province as they please (resulting in unrest)

-No reinforcements. Leftover troops should be controlled by an AI general.

-Huge battlefields, with defender's deploying zone close to the center. A sphere-like battlefield could do, as well.

-GA should be far more accurate and compelling, both for the human player and the AI.

-Trade related assets like dockyards and merchant houses should be available to build in allied/neutral provinces, providing a share of the province's commercial revenues.

- Annals and records of kings, generals, heroes, and significant accomplishments.

- Papal election, as in Machiavelli: The Prince. Each Cardinal on the board would count as one vote. Cardinals could be bribed away from other factions or created (exactly like crusades, only if the Pope permits you to, and only if you pay him a respectable sum of money).
When a cardinal is elected Pope, he would become a general unit, and his factions' religious agents would be able to excommunicate and declare crusades.

-Most of the things you guys pointed out in the previous posts.

SwordsMaster

03-24-2004, 14:21

I disagree with the Casus Belli. This is Medieval age...Most of the Rulers couldnt write,so its pointless talking about formalizing the warfare actions,anyway Casus Belli were not taken into account til the late Renaissance,if my memory is right,which is out of the game spectrum.

And I also think that reinforcements shouldnt exist, instead you should have bigger battlefields and the attacking army should be distributed in the way they arrive (ie: faster units first) but both armies should start furhter from one another.

Another improvement is that if someone had spies for ,say more than 2 turns in the province he's about to attack, he should be given the chance to re-deploying his troops as if he was defending due to the prevision given by his agents...

Know your enemy, Sun Tzu called it.

PseRamesses

03-24-2004, 14:59

My ultimate wet dream for a strategic game of an epic scale contains the diplomacy of EUII (or even better with even far more options), the TW battle engine, the strategic map of CIVIII and the micromanagement of Pharaoh.

You play on a real world terrain map with no provinces just cities and your realm will grow as your influence, technology and faction evolves. The map for lets say England would contain hundreds of battle-maps like the ones in TW, much like a mosaic jiggzaw puzzle, for each part of the land. So, conquering England will take a long time. Each part of the map can be micromanaged like in Pharaoh or you can just put it on auto-build. You should be able of building several different kinds of units in one province. Send out explorers (EUII), emissaries, establish trade with neighbours (CIVIII/ Pharaoh) etc.

If you choose a game as the egyptians it will start around 4000 bc, as the Romans around 700 bc etc etc. The world is unexplored (EUII) and the game should follow mankinds real development (CIVIII but far better).

I don´t know if you get the shere scale of what a game I´m talking about? This would probably take thousands of gigabytes and a Uber-Matrix-PC-system, he he I´m confident though, looking at the evolvement of PC-tech the last 20 years, that I´ll probably see this come to life before I pass away. The need for theese kind of games are huge and is getting greater each year.

SwordsMaster

03-24-2004, 15:42

Possibly that kind of game will be about 3 DVDs size, but you wont have to install it completely....

The only issue that bothers me is: how many provinces with Pharaoh micromanagement could you handle at a time?
How long will it take you to end a Campaign? A lifetime?
What you want is no a game but a simulator.

BTW you would not need such a great computer, maybe just about 4GB processor...Which is no impossible at all.

VividYoshee

03-24-2004, 16:44

I think you could build an engine for such a game that would work fine on a decent PC. You only need more CPU/graphics hardware if your really trying to show a lot of stuff at once in high detail (which a good company wouldn't do). I haven't played all those games, so it may become a bit slow, but if they are handled in turn the minimum requirement wouldn't be an issue (however if it has to chug through mountains of data every turn, as it may if you combine all those games together, it may take eons to play).

The issue is it is very easy to say combine games X,Y,Z, however legal issues aside, it rarely works so simply as that. Despite the similar material these are all very different games in terms of how they are played, and the audience they are intended for. Trying to please anyone often just leads to ticking off everyone.

So if this game doesn't appear over the next two decades I wouldn't chalk it up to technology, but rather the desire of a game company to create such a game. However, they might evolve something similar to it in time, with the same general concepts but a different way of gameplay that balances all of the many sides to appeal to a larger crowd.

Instead of combining games I think we should always be on the lookout for entirely new ways of doing the things we are used to from games like TW, CIV, etc that will make putting together the ideas of the games easier to handle.

PS: I hope no one minds that I've been using this thread in designing my own MTW-based variant (or er ripoff.. :) ... but its all for edumacationamal purposes). Some of these ideas may not be moddable in MTW, but are easy to implement if your building a new engine anyway (if anyone knows how to mod directly the AI of MTW I of course would just mod it in).

PseRamesses

03-24-2004, 21:43

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ Mar. 24 2004,08:42)]Possibly that kind of game will be about 3 DVDs size, but you wont have to install it completely....

The only issue that bothers me is: how many provinces with Pharaoh micromanagement could you handle at a time?
How long will it take you to end a Campaign? A lifetime?
What you want is no a game but a simulator.

BTW you would not need such a great computer, maybe just about 4GB processor...Which is no impossible at all.
Swordmaster, finally someone who understands me ;) Yes I do realize I´m gonna need some monster machine to do this but mark my words: within the next 20 years I wouldn´t be surpriced if we actually could enjoy that kind of game.

SwordsMaster

03-24-2004, 21:57

Not even 20.I´ll bet that in 5 years time, you´ll have a 4gb processor for the price of an average Pentium 4...
I´ve seen 200 gb processors already (in the Pentagon), so its not impossible at all...

The problem is not the machine, but the time and money that need to be spent developing such a game.By the time they´re done, people´s interests will be somewhere else, so they´ll have to charge wild amounts of money for the game.Its more of a market risk than a technological impossibility.

(Wow, im talkong as if i knew something about markents) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

VividYoshee

03-24-2004, 22:07

200 GHz processors? wow...

You sure it wasn't some sort of multiprocessor supercomputer that was equivalent to 200 GHz? I know home stuff isn't top of the line, but I thought there would have to be a breakthrough to get that sort of power into one processor.

SwordsMaster

03-24-2004, 22:09

Hey, I forgot it in the last post.What should definitely be added to MTW is the battles for the disembarks...Its the easies way to defend against an invading enemy army after all...

PseRamesses

03-24-2004, 22:10

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ Mar. 24 2004,14:57)]Not even 20.I´ll bet that in 5 years time, you´ll have a 4gb processor for the price of an average Pentium 4...
I´ve seen 200 gb processors already (in the Pentagon), so its not impossible at all...

The problem is not the machine, but the time and money that need to be spent developing such a game.By the time they´re done, people´s interests will be somewhere else, so they´ll have to charge wild amounts of money for the game.Its more of a market risk than a technological impossibility.

(Wow, im talkong as if i knew something about markents) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
I´m not talking of the actual hardware that much but the massive HD-space you´ll need and the enormous delevoping and storing of that kind of information. When you play your game in the beginning you might want to micromanage city development for the few towns and willages you have but when the empire grows you can simply auto-build with the capitol or any other city as a mold.
Personally I would have no problem in paying some 500-1000$
for that kind of game. Constantly modded by players and patched by the developer for a fee, much like a perscription.
The real potential is that this kind of game won´t be sold on cd or dvd or any other media but rather played online against a central computer somewhere. So you can sign up for a game against hundreds of other players online.

SwordsMaster

03-24-2004, 22:22

I thought there would have to be a breakthrough to get that sort of power into one processor.[/QUOTE]

Well, the breakthrough is a huge hall full of PROCESSOR.If you want to see it, look for IBM Blue.The US Army used it to simulate nuclear weapons explosions so its quite good.

The real potential is that this kind of game won´t be sold on cd or dvd or any other media but rather played online against a central computer somewhere. So you can sign up for a game against hundreds of other players online.[/QUOTE]

How do you download it?
Then it would be impossible because other players won´t be waiting til you finish your turn, and if the battles are going to be similar to MTW or RTW, you can just play RTW multyplayer, its much easier. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
BTW, 3 DVDs its about 25 GB of HD space, suppose its compressed, you will probably face some 50 gb of HD only for the game...I think its not THAT much...

Do you realize that were talking as if were about to make it ourselves?
...Who knows? Mybe we will... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif

PseRamesses

03-24-2004, 22:37

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ Mar. 24 2004,15:22)]How do you download it?
Then it would be impossible because other players won´t be waiting til you finish your turn, and if the battles are going to be similar to MTW or RTW, you can just play RTW multyplayer, its much easier. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

BTW, 3 DVDs its about 25 GB of HD space, suppose its compressed, you will probably face some 50 gb of HD only for the game...I think its not THAT much...

Do you realize that were talking as if were about to make it ourselves?
...Who knows? Mybe we will... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif
You downloada license, then the main game and everything you need to play it. Then you play realtime

I don´t think human evolvement and the rise of civilization will fit in just 50 GB, maybee 5000 GB?

Sign me up Now we are two ;)

Kropazz

03-24-2004, 22:51

I would love to see alliance working much better. I mean now it's only for trade reasons (well bigger chance that faction wan't attack u), but i would like to see allied attacks and invasions, help your friend not only then they got surrounded in your neighboring province, but in any province. And i would like to use my troops as a mercenaries to other factions for some few florins http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Fanty

03-25-2004, 00:00

Moores law:

Every 18 month, computers will be twice as fast and have twice as much RAM for the same price.

I have seen a graph that this was true since the 60s (when he said this prophecy)

Ray Kurzweil (if someone knows him) says, in 2030 will a 1000$ computer be able to simulate a thing wich is as complex as a human brain.

And 2060 will a 1000$ computer be able to simulate the brains of the population of a whole planet.

THAT will be cool games then ;)
But possibly we have a moral problem if its legal to kill a computersimulated character, wich is able to think like a human beeing.

Kekvit Irae

03-25-2004, 00:30

Quote[/b] (Fanty @ Mar. 24 2004,17:00)]Moores law:

Every 18 month, computers will be twice as fast and have twice as much RAM for the same price.

I have seen a graph that this was true since the 60s (when he said this prophecy)

Ray Kurzweil (if someone knows him) says, in 2030 will a 1000$ computer be able to simulate a thing wich is as complex as a human brain.

And 2060 will a 1000$ computer be able to simulate the brains of the population of a whole planet.

THAT will be cool games then ;)
But possibly we have a moral problem if its legal to kill a computersimulated character, wich is able to think like a human beeing.
Can we say, SkyNet?

PseRamesses

03-25-2004, 00:49

Aymar de Bois Mauri

03-25-2004, 00:52

Quote[/b] (kekvitirae @ Mar. 23 2004,22:07)]My dream MTW is a MTW Mod for RTW.
That's going to happen, if I have something to say about it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

However, the most fabulous project is, obviously, PseRamesses's idea of a Humankind: Total War.

Just EPIC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif I would probably NEVER play another game again, though... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-bigcry.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

03-25-2004, 00:56

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ Mar. 24 2004,17:49)]Now, has anyone got an asessment on the total amount of mankinds knowledge from pre-history to modern day and how much HD-space we need to store it on?
Good luck with the calculations, my friend... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif

Quote[/b] ]Boy, I´m not doing the txt-files for this one, he he
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

SwordsMaster

03-25-2004, 01:41

Quote[/b] ]Finally some hard facts and I´m proved right. Thanks Fanty. Now, has anyone got an asessment on the total amount of mankinds knowledge from pre-history to modern day and how much HD-space we need to store it on?
Boy, I´m not doing the txt-files for this one, he he

Well i dont think its all that big though,possibly twice the Congress Library,which is about 1000GB...Ridiculously small size for 10000 years of history (or we are not that smart...)BTW can be transferred via Internet in just about 20 hours using the new connection that is being researched.

By the way and as someone was talking about Moore´s law,i have to say that we are close to the top of the evolution of the microprocessor computers, its a fact.But i read somwhere (and it wasnt Hello) that by 2050 the technology from The Matrix (no explanatio needed) will be abroadly available.

BTW the most expensive computer ive bougth was about 800E = 850$ approx... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

Fanty

03-25-2004, 03:27

Zitat[/b] ]that by 2050 the technology from The Matrix (no explanatio needed) will be abroadly available.

Yeah thats Ray Kurzweil, god if AI.
He was aksed about the movie Matrix because it used some of his ideas. And he said, the technolgy shown in the movie comes not even close to the technology we al will face during our lifetime.

------------------
http://www.kurzweiltech.com/images/ray_light.jpg

Zitat[/b] ]Ray Kurzweil was the principal developer of the first omni-font optical character recognition, the first print-to-speech reading machine for the blind, the first CCD flat-bed scanner, the first text-to-speech synthesizer, the first music synthesizer capable of recreating the grand piano and other orchestral instruments, and the first commercially marketed large-vocabulary speech recognition. Ray has successfully founded and developed nine businesses in OCR, music synthesis, speech recognition, reading technology, virtual reality, financial investment, medical simulation, and cybernetic art. All of these technologies continue today as market leaders. Ray's Web site, KurzweilAI.net, is a leading resource on artificial intelligence.

Ray Kurzweil was inducted in 2002 into the National Inventors Hall of Fame, established by the U.S. Patent Office. He received the $500,000 Lemelson-MIT Prize (view the video), the nation's largest award in invention and innovation. He also received the 1999 National Medal of Technology, the nation's highest honor in technology, from President Clinton in a White House ceremony. He has also received scores of other national and international awards, including the 1994 Dickson Prize (Carnegie Mellon University's top science prize), Engineer of the Year from Design News, Inventor of the Year from MIT, and the Grace Murray Hopper Award from the Association for Computing Machinery. He has received eleven honorary Doctorates and honors from three U.S. presidents.

He has received seven national and international film awards. His book, The Age of Intelligent Machines, was named Best Computer Science Book of 1990. His current best-selling book, The Age of Spiritual Machines, When Computers Exceed Human Intelligence, has been published in nine languages and achieved the #1 best selling book on Amazon.com in the categories of Science and Artificial Intelligence.

Zitat[/b] ]Kurzweil argues that, in the next several decades:

-The raw computing power of the brain (estimated at 20 quadrillion instructions per second) will be available and inexpensive.

-Moore's Law will continue indefinitely, as new computing paradigms (such as carbon nanotubes) replace silicon chips

-Virtual Reality will be pervasive, and human beings will spend most of their time living and interacting in simulated environments

-Nonbiological intelligence will begin to dominate.

It is easy to dismiss Kurzweil's predictions as fantasy. Unlike many prognosticators, however, Kurzweil has an impressive track record of predicting technological developments. He correctly predicted the rise of the Internet, as well as that a computer would beat a grandmaster in chess by 1998. He also predicted that LCD displays would soon surpass CRT displays, a trend which is now happening. At the very least his comments and insights merit careful analysis.

SwordsMaster

03-25-2004, 12:32

If you want to have a look at some research thats going on have a look at www.kevinwarwick.com .Kevin Warwick wants to be a cyborg,so he has some techonological implants in his body...Have a look...Although its kinda disturbing to see...

By the way, i dont think Moores law is infinite....Ive seen transistors made with just 1 electron (spin +1/2 => logic 1, spin -1/2=> logic 0), but how much smaller can we possibly go?

BTW theres no such thing as Artificial Intelligence, its just endless series of combinations of inputs predicted by the programmer...

Phatose

03-25-2004, 14:05

*chuckles* I could reply that there's no such thing as natural intelligence, just a combinations predicted by biological structures.

SwordsMaster

03-25-2004, 14:08

Not exactly, mainly because your biological body structure changes over time.And also because toy can remember your previous solutions while the computer has to calculate again all the possibilities.The computer cant learn permanently. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

VividYoshee

03-25-2004, 14:16

Well some AI research is all about mimicing natural structures to predict them inputs, so the difference in the future might not be all that great. I am also sure you'll find plenty willing to argue a computer CAN learn permanantly, its just they don't learn all that well at all at the moment.

I don't think Moore's law is infinite, or even practical for the forseeable future. There will be walls in chip development, and eventually there is a boundary that you just can't keep packing more on. Eventually improvements will come from new methods of using those transistors, possibly improvements in multiprocessor technology, other parallel processing related things, and so on.

I don't think hardware is much of an issue though, software is the biggest thing for the future. We already got enough computer power to do some serious chugging, but the best solution is to make a non-chug intensive program in the first place (even a 100 GB processor could be foiled by an infinite while loop to take things to the silliest extreme).

SwordsMaster

03-25-2004, 14:25

Quote[/b] ]I don't think hardware is much of an issue though, software is the biggest thing for the future. We already got enough computer power to do some serious chugging, but the best solution is to make a non-chug intensive program in the first place (even a 100 GB processor could be foiled by an infinite while loop to take things to the silliest extreme).

About that, the las thing ive heard about are self programmable OS.That means they dont have RAM or ROM memory, but can redistribute both according to the circumstances.The biggest problem with that, is that a computer without any permanent storage (without RAM memory) wont remember the OS next time you switch it on, and you will ahve no way of installing it unless you allow some permanent memory, but that is useless because we are returning to where we started...So theyre thinking about it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

Lord Ovaat

03-25-2004, 17:22

Gee, Panty, 2060 That would make me how old? Uhhh, dust. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif But if I am around then, RTW will probably be out.

Gregoshi

03-25-2004, 20:25

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Greetings and welcome Lord Ovaat, my fellow Pennsylvanian http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I am a little more optimistic than you about RTW. It will be out long before you or I turn to dust, but we may well be dust before we tire of the game. Or not. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Fanty

03-25-2004, 21:17

What about the craisiest thing human Fantasy can come up with? A Quantum Computer. If its possible to build.

A Quantum Computer makes Moores law absolete.

Because Quantums can exist at several places at once and can have several statuses (?) at once, the same structure could be used for infinite things paralel.

Its guessed a quantum computer can perform a literate infinite number of task paralel. Thats the end of Data security, because such a Computer could crack any code in one cyle. (it just tests all possible combinations in once cycle)
It also would be usefull searching huge databases. Just searching all files at once.

Rendering 3D Movies: Imagine it could calculate all pixels in any frame of the movie at once. Wooaa ;) NO matter how large the resolution, no matter how much frames the whole movie has, its all calculated in 1 cycle.

Well, the magic ends, when it shall do soemthing that cannot be calculated paralel. The number of calculations it can do paralel is infinite. But not the number of calculations that it can do one after another.

Its memory is also a cool thing. And solved the problem of transistors cannot become smaller than an atom. Because Quantums can be used multiple times. An Atom is one Bit (0 or 1), A quantum more. Depends on interaction with other quantums.
And raises in the way 2,4,8,16.... it doubles with each so called Q-Bit (Quantum particle) involved.

24 Q-Bits (Quantum particles) give roughly 2 MB RAM. The memory doubles with each Quanmtum you add to the Quantumcomputer. 40 Q-Bits give you 33.000 TErrabytes allready. 41 QBits = 66.000 TErrabytes and so on and so on.

Storing 33.000 Terrabytes in a structure that matches the size of 40 Atoms. A normal computer would make what? Freaking 5 Bits (40/8) of memory out of them . Hehehehe.

So, once we can build quantumcomputers, we have computers wich can calculate a literete infinite number of tasks paralel and have more or less unlimited RAM.

Once we open the door to the magical world of Quanmtummechanic I can see wonderfull things.

There is another thing Quantummechanic COULD do.
Quantums that are split (yeah that was allready done) behave the same (both halfes). Doesnt matter how much miles are between them. They behave the same in realtime.
Right now, its not possible to use it for comunication. Maybe it never will.

But maybe one generation finds the solution? Imagine a pair of RAM chips that allways have the same content. Even if one is on the other side of the Galaxy. in REALTIME. Hehehehe

The future will rbing a lot of mircles.

SwordsMaster

03-25-2004, 21:24

Ok, now this is turning into a metaphysical discussion based on videogames expected quality...
Anyway, back to the topic, i would also like future MTW to include battles for the landings from ships...Just try to imagine it....
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

SwordsMaster

03-25-2004, 21:30

Fanty, youre computer scientist? Ive heard about quantum computers, but again, as it stands now, they cannot work on thir own, thy need to be connected to a normal computer that provides them with structure for OS and interfaces.That is impossible to program on a q-computer cause it is always changing its state....
We´ll wait and we´ll see. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

Gregoshi

03-25-2004, 21:44

RTW will not require a Quantum computer to run. I read that somewhere I think. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

SwordsMaster

03-25-2004, 22:40

NOP, sure it won´t.
Just in case someone knows, whats gonna go after RTW?
Musketeers total war? wpuld be cool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Kekvit Irae

03-25-2004, 22:43

Flintstones: Total War http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

nightcrawlerblue

03-26-2004, 03:21

Aymar de Bois Mauri

03-26-2004, 03:43

Quote[/b] ]Just in case someone knows, whats gonna go after RTW?
Ancient: Total War (from 5000BC to 250BC) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

Fanty

03-26-2004, 03:45

Zitat[/b] ]You DO realize that in 2060 the value of $1000 would probably be the equivalent of fifty cents now. So I could buy a computer which will simulate billions of minds with 1/20th of my allowance...

Tell Silicon vally that ;)

Its their terminology.

The 1000$ computer is the typical silicon valley term for The typical standard computer that stands in every childrens room

They could of course say standard computer. Dont ask me why (Specially speakers of Intel) use the 1000$ computer

Gregoshi

03-26-2004, 05:17

Next? Quantum Computer: Total War. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Phatose

03-26-2004, 05:34

Quantam Computer: Total War?

Wasn't that the plot of The Terminator?

Kekvit Irae

03-26-2004, 05:37

I still stand firm in my prediction of Flintstones: Total War. I wanna play the Pebbles faction

Gregoshi

03-26-2004, 06:29

I'll take the Great Gazoo faction. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

SwordsMaster

03-26-2004, 12:17

HHmhmm...Terminator:Total War...Sounds great, but how are you going to manage formations of Terminators?Are they good ageinst Cavalry?And in woods?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Another amendment to MTW would be that when a units valor goes say 5 points higher than the unit theyre fightnig with, the lesser valor unit should withdraw unless they are disciplined or elite. For the disciplined to withdraw the difference should be 8 points of valor, and for elite, 10...
That would allow LOTR:Two Towers-like charges...fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Lord Ovaat

03-26-2004, 17:24

Thanks for the welcome, Gregoshi, but we aren't really from the same state. I'm from south of Pittsburgh. Go Stillers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif All kidding aside, you guys are killing my brain with quantum computers and stuff. When I went to college, we were still using slide rules. (I wish I was still joking, but I'm not.) I'm just anxiously awaiting Wes's next Mod. He & the guys working on the project have managed to correct most of the things I found objectionable. The others must be hard-coded. After playing the game for about a year, my biggest peeves are the unrealistic power the Pope and inquisitors have. They had no real secular authority, and couldn't take it upon themselves to try and execute two of my 7&8 star generals without the consent of secular authority http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif And that authority, of course, would be my king, and he mostly does what I want him to. Mostly. The sea battles are really annoying, in that you have no control or input. Assassins also have far to much license concerning foreign (non-faction) targets. However, these are minor whines, considering the game. I mean, how good must a game be to keep your attention for a year? Besides, I guess it offers some depth to the overall strategy. In short, I'm happy.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

03-26-2004, 18:20

Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ Mar. 26 2004,10:24)]I'm just anxiously awaiting Wes's next Mod. He & the guys working on the project have managed to correct most of the things I found objectionable. The sea battles are really annoying, in that you have no control or input. Assassins also have far to much license concerning foreign (non-faction) targets. However, these are minor whines, considering the game. I mean, how good must a game be to keep your attention for a year? Besides, I guess it offers some depth to the overall strategy. In short, I'm happy.
I believe WesW will be most honoured by such praising words. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif

I, however, only started working for the 4.0 version, so, I'm unable to recieve such flatering comments...

We hope that the next version will be ALL (almost anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif ) that MTW should have been...

Quote[/b] ] The others must be hard-coded.
Yeap. A lot of it is... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sad.gif

Quote[/b] ]After playing the game for about a year, my biggest peeves are the unrealistic power the Pope and inquisitors have. They had no real secular authority, and couldn't take it upon themselves to try and execute two of my 7&8 star generals without the consent of secular authority http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif And that authority, of course, would be my king, and he mostly does what I want him to. Mostly.
Well, I beg to differ a little. They had no secular authority per se, but their influence and power could bend the secular powers to their will quite easely. In those days, challenging the Pope and the Roman Church was not a path for the frail of heart. The overpowering of the Catholic Church over the secular powers happened a LOT of times, believe me...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

03-26-2004, 18:21

BTW, welcome to the ORG, Lord Ovaat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Lord Ovaat

03-26-2004, 21:27

Thanks for the welcome, Aymar. Would have replied personally, but I can't. I certainly agree the Pope wielded a lot of power, more then than now, and there were instances of Papal abuse. These were, however, exceptions I've encountered in reading. Most of the time it was in the interest of the secular authorities to aid the inquisitors. Mainly because one of the first acts after conviction was to strip the accused of all property, which was divvied between the interested parties. Fancy that? Both parties (church/state) could be a little quick to judge & convict when there was money--or a state threat--at stake. Remember the Templars. Their real crimes were having more money than the Pope & French King. Yep, it did happen. But I still don't think the King would have allowed The Black Prince to be executed for heresy as long as he could still wield a sword. Of course no king would object to whacking a knight with 0 loyalty. (Sure wish I could get the Pope's inquisitor to do THAT). But what the hay; it adds depth to the game. Nice to have you working on the Mod. Wish I knew enough about it to help.

SwordsMaster

03-26-2004, 22:02

BTW guys, about mods, could someone be so kind as to post a quik resume of what is every mod for, cause im getting lost.

I know HTW, ant NTW, both really good, but from that on, im the ignorance itself in a human body (what did i just say?)

Aymar de Bois Mauri

03-26-2004, 22:21

Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ Mar. 26 2004,14:27)]Thanks for the welcome, Aymar. Would have replied personally, but I can't. I certainly agree the Pope wielded a lot of power, more then than now, and there were instances of Papal abuse. These were, however, exceptions I've encountered in reading. Most of the time it was in the interest of the secular authorities to aid the inquisitors. Mainly because one of the first acts after conviction was to strip the accused of all property, which was divvied between the interested parties. Fancy that? Both parties (church/state) could be a little quick to judge & convict when there was money--or a state threat--at stake. Remember the Templars. Their real crimes were having more money than the Pope & French King. Yep, it did happen. But I still don't think the King would have allowed The Black Prince to be executed for heresy as long as he could still wield a sword. Of course no king would object to whacking a knight with 0 loyalty. (Sure wish I could get the Pope's inquisitor to do THAT). But what the hay; it adds depth to the game.
Yes, you're quite right. Economic and political greed were paramount in many cases. You're right about the apropriation of wealth on common victims as well as powerfull ones like the Templars. And you're right about the Black Prince. If they had need for someone, that someone would be safe. At least, until priorities changed... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]Nice to have you working on the Mod. Wish I knew enough about it to help.
Thanks. No problem... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri

03-26-2004, 22:23

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ Mar. 26 2004,15:02)]BTW guys, about mods, could someone be so kind as to post a quik resume of what is every mod for, cause im getting lost.

I know HTW, ant NTW, both really good, but from that on, im the ignorance itself in a human body (what did i just say?)
Check this thread:

Mod Descriptions (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=9021)

It just might help a bit... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

Lord Ovaat

03-27-2004, 19:28

Hey,Aymar. Speaking of the Papacy, if you guys ever get the chance to mod RTW, I, and probably everyone else, would really enjoy being able to drag the pope kicking and screaming into the Colosseum to be devoured by chickens. Yeah, verily, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif BTW, does God realize this is only a game?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

03-27-2004, 23:37

Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ Mar. 27 2004,12:28)]Hey,Aymar. Speaking of the Papacy, if you guys ever get the chance to mod RTW, I, and probably everyone else, would really enjoy being able to drag the pope kicking and screaming into the Colosseum to be devoured by chickens. Yeah, verily, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif BTW, does God realize this is only a game?
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Problems are:

-Was there a Pope in Roman times? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thinking.gif

-Are we going to waste precious time on that? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

As for Celestial Retribution, judging from the heavenly punishments enforced in these last few millenia, I think you shouldn't concern yourself too much... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

SwordsMaster

03-28-2004, 00:35

There was a pope only after Rome adopted christianism,and it was a patriarch...
The real pope didnt appear after Rome was plundered by the vandals.
BTW time shouldnt be wasted trying to program the pope in the colosseo, just make it moddable.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Lord Ovaat

03-28-2004, 08:43

Actually, the Catholic Church recognizes a Papal lineage all the way back to Simon Peter (St. Peter). Christians were so clandestine because of persecution it's hard to say how accurate that is, though. Once Constantine adopted and recognized Christianity, Christians were finally able to crawl out of the catacombs. It soon became the dominant religion in Rome. Initially the Church leader was called a patriarch; not sure when that changed. By the late third or early fourth century when Gregory was compiling the books for the Bible, the leader was definitely referred to as Pope. But this horse has probably been beaten enough. The suggestion was for a mod, not CA's original. An idle muse on a rainy Sat afternoon. Hope none took it seriously. (Oh, OK. Yeah, I'd still like to see it in a mod) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif