Byzantium endures?

[English assassin]

Sorry in advance if this is a bit noobie:

After a number of campaigns as catholic factions, I start my first campaign as the Byzantines (High, hard, domination). Not having a pope to worry about is a big plus, and the new unit roster needs a major reappraisal of tactics, which is great. Defending is a bit trickier without a long line of chivalric sergeants to hide behind... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

But, am I missing something, or does any well appointed Byzantine army consist of anything other than Byz Infantry, Treb archers and byz cav/horse archers if you are hard up? I don't see much point in varangian guard (sure, they're good, but not worth 3X the money of Byz Inf,) and Kataphractoi are a major disappointment (too slow to be any use as cavalry and too weak to be used in the main battle line). Byz cav on the other hand is a great unit, even better than Jinettes IMHO.

I actually like battles with only a few types of troops to worry about so this suits me fine, but am I missing something here?

[VikingHorde]

The Kataphractoi is a great unit, allthough slow. You can't use it vs spear, but they will kill most other units. They have huge armour, but attack is a bit low. This can be changed if you train them in constantinopel and build master horsebreeder. This will give + 2 valor (ekstra +2 attack/defence/armour). In High, the bys can allso build Pronoiai Allagion. They are like catholic knights. If you build them in Nicaea with master horse, you will get +2 valor. Being the byz, you will need to opgrade your units in order to keep up with the catholics. In high you will allso get Crossbows and Arbalester. You will not get new infantry, so try to upgrade the Byz Infantry and get a province with iron (hungarians have some). If you economy is very good, build lots of varangian guard (They are the best of the best) and mercs. In order to win as the byz, you will need to be very agressive from the start. Allso, remember the horde comming in 1230. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I like the byz, its fun being under presure.

[yonderboy]

Not at all noobie Mr. English Assassin, we all face an entirely new game (sorta) with each faction. It really changes when you don't have to worry about the Pope. It just happens that Byz are my personal fav faction to play. Van and Kat are your super-great units, but it takes a bit of learning to figure out just how different they are from the Catholic troops. In short, just treat Katanks as fast, heavy infantry. Keep them at your flanks (you usually won't have more than 1 or 2 per stack) and charge in right when the crush of battle hits. As for the Van, they're superb, yes, but expensive too... While it's true that your Byz Inf will be the basic decent-grunts of your army, never ignore Vans. Economically, an army consisting of Vans, Katanks, and trebs spread from the Baltic to Arabia just is NOT viable. However, keep in mind the 12-unit rule, and you'll see just how valuable a few units of Van can be in a pitched battle, especially later on when you face those Later high-level Crusaders and Janissaries. The Byz troops don't have an end-all-and-be-all unit at the end like a lot of the other factions have (keep the Turks and their Jan's DOWN... and never let 'em back up). Keeping in mind the 3 islands (and therefore inevitable immense naval presence) and neutral Russian steppes, I always find the Byz's as a superb empire at the start, balanced out by semi-outdated troops later on. Thankfully, I normally end up seeing higher-quality generals w/ Byz's than I do w/ the Catholic factions. Well, for now that's a wrap. Hope it helps

[ichi]

Remember that Byz Inf come with low morale, so they are best used in the army of a high valor Byz General. Even Kataphraktoi come standard from the factory with low valor, although the Byz get a lot of high valor Kats (I spread these high valor kats around to my various armies).

When fighting with Byz Inf keep in mind that they are not spears, they are 100 man sword units with good stats but low morale. They do not like to be flnaked, surrounded, outnumbered, or otherwise scared. The secret to a Byz army is too keep a good solid line, not let units stray out and get routed.

VG are the best infantry unit in the game IMHO. You lose them in Late so build a bunch - these are the strength of my Byz armies.

You are right about Trebs - great little archers that do well until you can get xbows and arbs. Don't forget to build siege engineers to get the Naptha Throwers.

Kats are slow but have good defense and armor, I think they make good gens. But the Porno Cav is the Byz fightin horse. Essentially Pronoiai are Feudal Knights (with slightly lower charge). My favs.

Byz Cav are also good - essentially they are an armored Horse Archer. Not quite as good as a Szekely or Boyar in combat, still their armor allows them to endure a little more missile fire than a vanilla HA.

My fav Byz army has Kat Gen, 4 Porno Cav, 2 Byz Inf, 4 VG, 1 Naptha, 1 Byz Cav, and 3 Trebs or Xbows. Quite fun due to the wide diversity of weapons.

ichi

[English assassin]

Thanks for these thoughts, v useful.

People see to really like them so I will give the kataphractoi another go when I turn against Western Europe (laughs manically...) After putting the Turks down I'm facing off agaist the Egyptians and Russians and they seem to be just too slow for those battles. Up til now I've chosen cavalry for its mobility and left the heavy infantry role to, well, I guess heavy infantry, but half the fun is trying new stuff.

OK I was wrong on VG. My head says they aren't worth the money, but I really wanted them to be good anyway (big fan of anything viking related)and for sheer head down, charge, and see you on the other side of the enemy lines they rock. Managing the slightly windy Byz Inf makes for more of a challenge I think but sometimes its good to keep it simple...

The Byz are a real blast. You have to be more aggressive on the battlefield with their units and its dead right you have to be more agressive strategically too. And no pope to tell you not to attack people Excellent.

Hi Yonderboy, no need to be formal, you can call me English if you like. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
(You are a William Gibson fan, right? Great books)

[mfberg]

Remember horse archers, use them as softeners/bait. They are faster than Byz cav, and with upgraded armors can still fight the Egyptians on their own turf.

mfberg

[Kommodus]

Hi English assassin. My situation is similar to yours; I'm a fairly new player, and for my third campaign I chose Byzantium in High on Expert. It's definitely a challenge; I have a lot of enemies and precious few friends. Powerful nations on all sides seem to be regarding Roman lands with a jealous eye; they like to attack when our armies are occupied elsewhere.

I managed to conquer Turkey quite early, but the Hungarians were growing powerful and attacked. Just as I managed to gain the upper hand on that front, the Mongols (who we had been at peace with for a long time) came in from behind. While I initially managed to hold them off, eventually a huge Mongol army smashed through Trebizond, and only a heroic stand at Constantinople saved the empire (this showed me how badly outclassed Byzantine infantry and spearmen are by Mongol heavy cavalry, even in the woods). With that crisis averted, I turned back to the west. War broke out with Hungary again, and this time several other Catholic factions (Italy, England, Germany) joined in against me, resulting in the destruction of much of my Mediterranean fleet at the hands of the huge Italian navy. My trade income was crippled, but my land armies have slowly gained ground against the Catholics. Recently the powerful Egyptians also attacked from the south. We are massively outnumbered, but our higher-quality armies have managed to win most battles, and soon we will go on the offensive.

The year is around 1270, and there have been some desperate situations for the empire. There have been lean years when building was impossible and we had to make do with cheaper troops. We have faced terrible odds on the battlefield in do-or-die situations. I've found that a strategically placed unit of Kataphractoi or Varangian Guard can tip the scales of a battle when the odds are against me - particularly when facing those tough, armoured Mongol horsemen or western knights. Even if I have just a few of these crack troops remaining, they can make quite a difference. When forced to economize your forces and make do with what you have, a few excellent fighters in the right place can make a huge difference.

My better armies include as many pavise arbalesters as I can get to supplement the Trebizond archers, a good number of Byzantine infantry, one or two Varangian Guard, some Pronoai Allagion, a few horse archers or Byzantine cavalry, and (probably) a Kataphractoi general. The Byzantine cavalry are better in melee than horse archers, but horse archers have more stamina and speed, and are thus better for harassing the enemy, which is mainly what I do with either (plus, they're a lot cheaper). For naval warfare, I like to build war galleys and fire galleys, and concentrate my fleets as much as possible to gain the upper hand against my more numerous allies. It's definitely a challege, but I'm slowly making progress.

[Impaler]

Well, I play byz allot. Katatanks are slow yes but if you build them in the right provinces and keep your army balanced ( Infantry, trebs and vags with tanks)then you can smash any enemy in the east. Later you can make more heavy cav units and they are more speedy,thats very nice.
Hit the Turks fast and hard and keep them down no matter the cost and take Crimea and Khazar. Antioch and Syria are extremly useful too. Try and make your naval strong. This way you can make money with trade.
Also is very funny when the horde comes. The best battles I had was the ones with them.

[yonderboy]

Glad to meet ya, English. Let's see...
First of all, I don't read William Gibson. At least not yet. From everything I hear should. And let's not talk about Lupus... There's a Lupus Yonderboy online who's become my arch-nemesis over the past decade. But enough of that. Great to hear that you're learnin more and more about Byz.

And Kommodus (another lovely name...), that's a pretty great AAR blurb. Very descriptive, great read. Keep it up

[katank]

katanks are just about arrow proof (excepting AP missiles) and can slug it out in front lines.

they also make up for lack of good byz spear unit. nothing beyond basic spears. Thus, solution is to ounter charge enemy heavy cav with a thin line of katanks in the front and then use your swords to flank them.

pronoai are avaiable in early also.

BTW, don't forget that the byz get a discount for napthas and agents.

napthas can be very effective if used correctly.

[son of spam]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ Mar. 25 2004,20:48)] But the Porno Cav is the Byz fightin horse
oooh ichi

What have you been teaching your Byz cav Naughty, naughty habits http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Durruti]

This is my first post on this forum. MTW is the finest game offered-although I am eagerly waiting for RTW. The Byzantine are my favorites to play.

With them, you are guaranteed the most furious action. Sooner or later you will be at war with 3 to 4 other nations.

If you want to build & war less, the English & Danes are a good choice. The Danes & English can be defended from a single province front-with supplemental naval protection. The Byzantines are centrally located & you have to maintain strong armies in at least 4 provinces.

[English assassin]

Thanks for these comments. I wish I had played the Byz before now. I managed to stare the Hungarians down for a while, and the Russians came piling into Georgia the year before the horde went piling into them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif. So whilst everyone else was busy, and the Egyptians had nicely weakened themselves taking out the French in the Holy land, it was time to taken them out and extend down to Egypt.

This was the best move ever. Now there are no muslim factions left in the game, and I have all the crusader provinces, there are crusades homing in on me from all sides. I am at war with about the whole map and public enemy number one Its hilarious.

I'm living by the words of a French general (was it Foch at the battle of the Marne) who said My centre collapses, my right wing retreats, situation excellent, I attack.

[Durruti]

Don't forget the Bulgarian Brigands. As Byzantine, Bulgaria should be a core province-vital to strength-protection of East Roman Empire. It comes with a strong castle, & the Brigands. The Brigands are as good-or better than the Trebizon archers. Both archers are among the fine fighting unit resources of Byzantia. I usually use the Trebizons in Asia & the Brigands in Europe.

With Byzantium you are in the center of conflict. If you play the Danes or England, you can go to sleep with one-front defenses. As England-I seize Flanders & hold against all comers, as Denmark I seize Swabia (& with Sweden-Norway already in my Viking empire), I also hold against all comers until dawn.

Why is there no special province for producing a +1 valor Byzantium Infantry??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

[mercian billman]

In medmod Greece gives a plus 1 bonus to Byz Inf (Vestirae?) also increases upkeep cost of bulgarian brigands.

[katank]

I don't know about so much conflict as byz.

I usually have a triangle between egypt, georgia, and const. that I defend.

Greece & bulgaria only if feasible.

crusades rot in bulgaria or hungary and I have mucho trade everywhere.

@Durruti, you do mean saxony, right?

[Axeknight]

Love the Byz. Byz Inf, Varangs and Prononai make them a great attacking faction (plus the high level of tech available from the start in Const.)

I try and get to N. Africa quick as possible, then expand through there till I get to Iberia. The Spanish are usually so bashed about by fighting the Moors (Almos) that they don't present too much of a threat, so I stop at Morocco (sp?). by then, the horde has usually arrived, and because I've not gone north yet, I don't have to defend against em. Instead, I leave it 10 years or so, till they're spread out across Russia, then take the fight to em. Swift attacks catch em off guard, and using their own tactic against em is particularly ironic, I think. As a result, I get most of Russia and all of Scandinavia, and can then expand into the Balkans. After that, its just a matter of time before Western Europe falls into my iron grip aswell...

MWHAHAHAHA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[VikingHorde]

Year, the byz are great. The byz and danes are the best http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mercian billman]

The Byz and Danes are great especially if your just starting Total War.

Byz are an easy faction to play with and can eliminate the Turks within a few years.

Danes start with only one faction so managing your economy is pretty easy, also you have the only land routes to the North.

[PseRamesses]

Besides playing the vikings in VI the Byz are my favourite faction of play. I love the build-up period on early in wait for the onslaught of the horde. Haven´t played Byz on high though.