Unit Command and Formation

[Tomisama]

Do you ever use unit command buttons or their equivalents?
I mean besides the (H)alt, ( R)ally, and (G)group (and yes the R(O)ut, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ).

What about the group formations on the Ctrl+P side of the unit commands?
These one key, line maneuvers are truly a valuable tool in the right hands.
Do you use them at all, or have you forgoten that they are even there (like me)?

[TosaInu]

Hello,

Group, Halt, Rally, Wedge, Loose, Close, Hold, Engage at will, Skirmish. I'ld love a fall back/disengage button and a foolproof way to make units and especially groups run when I need them to run. This goes wrong in laggy battles, hectic battles and just about everytime it should not go wrong.

[Tomisama]

Hi Tosa http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Do you use any of them all the time? Like presetting a particular unit types commands, to be something other than the default?

Or have any special application situations you could tell us about?


Like for example, sometimes when the circumstances are right, I will place range units on hold formation and position, and allow a cavalry charge on them, to make contact. The cavalry smack into this brick wall, and get stuck. While they are hacking away at their contact point, unable to disengage, I’ll close the trap with sword and axe.

A disengage button would come in handy for my enemy there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif . Yes, I think that is definitely something that's missing.


What about the Ctrl+P group formations, make lines, order swap, columns. Does anyone ever ever use those on a regular basis?

[Sulla]

Hit and run Tomi, charge home then when its starting to turn bad, double click out of there

your units will disengage, just dont mindlessly click about. That would cause them to rout


Also found out something else today (well it was new for me)

If you move into range with your infantry, and then move them back again, there is a chance your Troops will get a morale setback (Saying something like: Your troops morale is dwindling because of constant withdrawl from battle)

I personally found that very interesting ;)

Sulla

[Tomisama]

What about group formations 1 thru 9?

I use to think they were for people who didn’t know how to setup for battle, but now realize (thank you HighFist) they offer some very useable quick changes in whole army formations.

If you don’t know what I am talking about, first you will need to set up a custom battle. Just take 4 units each of, range, sword, and cavalry. After the battle starts, (G)roup them all and select (Ctrl+P) formation 5 (orders up range, sword, cav). Now select formation 6 (range and swords trade places). Now 7 (places cav in front, followed by range and sword).

This quick control can be very useful in many situations. Especially the 5 and 6, swapping of range and sword.

Check it out. Experiment with 2, 4, and 8.

Think a column of cavalry might come in handy to sneak through enemy lines? Group your cav and select formation 9.

Have Fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Yes, after not using group formations (except for manual ctrl groups 1-9), i've now discovered they can be quite useful in certain situations - usually after the initial fight in a team game and you want to quickly and easily get all your units back into some sort of army formation.

One question though - i've noticed when doing this that if i select all my units, and then select a pre-set formation for them to go into, quite often they will march a long way before getting into this formation, instead of forming around the general, which i would think would be the most sensible thing to do - any suggestions on how to stop this happening?

[Dionysus9]

I've tried those pre-set formations and I've never been able to get them to work for me in a real battle. I find the manually set groups (CTRL-SHIFT#) to be far more useful, since I can define sub-groups based on location or troop type.

I'm sure the pre-set formations could be used to advantage, but I've never put in the time necessary to sort them out.

[Nigel]

Not really using the group formations, eigther.
That does not mean they are not any good, it just means I have not gotten used to them. Then again, I am not sure if they would really suit peoples playing styles. Now if you could design your own formations and save tham over teh preset ones, I think that would be really useful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

I seem to start with one formation, grouping units into several subgroups. Then after fhe first attack, I often want to rearrange those groups. I ctrl + leftclick on the single units to select them for grouping.

Someone here mentioned ctrl + right mousebutton. When you drag that, it draws a lassoo and selects all your units in that area. That could come in very handy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif I must give it a try in my next battles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Dionysus9]

Yes, Ctrl+rightclick and drag is very useful

Custom formations would be GREAT but we'll never see them.

[Tomisama]

By pre-positioning your units on the field the way you want to start, then selecting them left to right, and grouping them as you go, according to their function in your army . You can then use the formations to do exactly what you want. Plus you still can use your grouping controls as always. And add to that, you will have your unit icons displayed in the order that your units are on the field. You will know exactly who is where, and can without actually having them in camera, select just the group or individual unit that you want to do a particular task.

I was going to try to write out a basic example of how this works, but think it would be best to hear from the master of formation macro control. I’ll try to get “the one” in here. No guarantees, as he is very busy with family. But one way or the other, we will get out a step by step procedure on how to do it right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif

Edit: Changed to selecting them "left to right" rather than the other way around.

[TosaInu]

Hello Tomi says,

I use all of them in about any battle.

Horsearchers for example are on skirmish by default, but when I want to do special things with them, I put them on engage at will, as that will allow sharper manual control.

I spread hth cavalry out in 1 or 2 lines and then put them in Wedge formation. This gives a compact unit to sneak through gaps in the enemy lines. When maneuvered into the right position I press Close to spread them out again and attack shortly after that. I'll have the best of both worlds: compact unit and large striking lines.

I haven't really used the CTRL P orders in MP battles yet. There are certainly uses, I guess it will take some time for me to use it properly.

[Tomisama]

Thanks Tosa :)

In some exhaustive testing with the ctrl+p formations last night, I think I have separated what works and what doesn’t.

It’s kind of a shame more development time wasn’t given to this control tool. All the right stuff is there, but it seems anyway that some things cancel other things. Oh it works fine for specific things, but there are some side effects that may keep you from using it for others.

First the problems:

A. The major problem with all of the formations is that you can’t use them in deployment, you have to be in play to have access to the controls.

B. Next problem after that, whenever you do use them, your field position order and icon order are no longer in sync. Will explain below.*

C. Then to me the biggest problem is that it destroys your icon (g)rouping (not your ctrl+shift assignments), every time you use them. This is part of a larger deficiency in design, being the inability to nest groupings. Groupings can not be layered, so you cannot sub group. Use one, destroy the other.

Number 1. The line button (as an example of the last two problems).

Stretch out 4 pav uinits 3 deep.
Ctrl select the left most and the rest in turn, left to right.
Now ctrl+p and 1

*Your icons and units on the field will match position, left to right. Your units are now also automatically (g)rouped also. This is neat, but if you use any other (g)rouping or ctrl+p formation (automatically groups), the orders will not longer be the same.

So what good is it then? More on this below.

1, 5, 6, 7, and 9 are the only formation tools I find of value. 1 and 9 work together, and 5, 6, and ,7 are variations on the same theme. The trio of unit type rank reorganizers works very well, and is very useful. Especially 5 and 6, which swap sword and range units all at once.

1 and 5 for my purposes are counterparts. For instance select a group of 4 cavalry and use ctrl+p and 9. A narrow column is formed. Once you get to where you are going use ctrl+p 1 to spread them out again.

Total army regroup in the later phases of battle, will probably be the most purposeful use of formation controls for most people. And there are many variations on all of the above, using just certain groups (rather than all at once). All in all, "If" you understand (by observation) how they work and what to expect, I believe you will find many uses http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

And yes you can teach an old dog new tricks (woof woof) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[KyodaiSteeleye]

interesting, but has anyone got an answer to the problem i am encountering above?

D.

[Dionysus9]

Tomi,

Thanks for your work and attempt to explain it to all us numbskulls. I will take a look at some of these commands and see if I can get them to work for me.

Kyodai,

No solution, but perhaps an explanation of why it might be happening and some ideas to reduce the problem. I say might because I'm not 100% sure what you are talking about (since I don't use the pre-sets myself)...but I do use groups and movement commands all the time and some of the same quirks seem to exist there.

I think what is happening is that the units are forming up in the "center" of the old formation. Your old formation was all spread out across the map, and it seems the units are pulling in to the geographic center of the formation to regroup. You would prefer them to regroup around the general--but that isn't going to happen. No way of doing that as far as I know.

I encounter this problem when trying to move my army as a group when it is in an asymmetric formation. Lets say my entire army is tightly formed in a nice box, except one horsearcher unit that I've forgot about. The forgotten unit is way off to the right, along the right edge. Now if I group the whole army and try to move it as a group, and I click directly in front of the main formation what will I get? The army will proceed to move forward and LEFT (significantly to the left) because it is trying to CENTER on my CLICK. The forgotten horsearcher is causing the geographic center of my army to be somewhere between the main force and the forgotten unit.

So the way I avoid that is to order the horsearcher into the position he should be in in the main formation, and then group the entire army and move it as a unit. You dont have to wait for the horsearcher to actually arrive in formation, you can click the move before he gets there. For purposes of "centering," the horsearcher is treated as being in the position he is moving to.

So how can you use this info to help reduce your problem? Well, you can experiment. First of all, eyeball the perimiter of the units you are puttin in formation-- try to determine where their "center" is. They are going to form up to the center. So, any units that are lying outside of the main force should either be ordered to march to the main force or omitted from the group entirely-- before you issue the formation command. I think this might help you predict where the units will form up and keep them from walking too far before they do form up.

Let me know if it works--its just a theory I've never tried it.

[1dread1lahll]

[HighFistRW]

hi all,
i use all the available tools i can http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

i work my army from left to right like reading a book so to say.
first i group my men into there groups.i usually have 6 groups 1-6, group 1 is always my missiles untis group 2 is my left flank units group 3 center units and group 4 right flank units i then assign my cav into groups 5 and 6 and they take left and right flank also.

like this:

xxxx ------ group 1 (missiles)
xx--g2 xxx--g3 xx--g4
xx--g5 x-GEN xx--g6

now the trick for those that dont know is when u group ur units if u group em correctly i.e manually place them into group how u want them on the field of battle( is diff to show here or explain ) if u then later on use an army command say hit the No' 5 key ur units will order up into all missiles at front But with ur left flank untis on left ur center untis at center and ur right units on right catch my drift ? once u have this hard wired into ur head u can quiet easily remeber group 2 is left 3 is center and so on. if u look above u can also make larger groups notice my g2 g3 and g4 i would normaly make this a large group, group 9 then if i want all my inf to move up i can tell it to with one click rather tahn movin each individual group same with all my cav they are grouped into a larger group 8 and my main force of inf and missiles are group 0 now when laid out i can select group 0 which consists of inf and and play with em by usin the 5 and 6 keys to change the whole groups formation i.e missiles to front or inf to front :) 5 n 6 are the most commom used keys for me u can achieve these results for whole army as well, crtl A then strike the army out ( REMBERING TO HAVE PLACED THE UNTIS WHERE U WANT THEM FIRST AS ABOVE FOR EXAMPLE ) now when u hit the 5 or 6 key u will see how they look the great part is that the units on ur left will be group 2 center units will be group 3 and so on so like i said if u can read from left to right u can quickly get to grips with this .

Problems..... and there are some hehe as always. if groups cross paths they will then assume those positions in the whole army group commands 5 and 6 keya again..sorry i cant explain it better i am willing to show any that want to see what im on about just ask :)

have fun all

edit bit for kyodia.... if they are miles apart when u select em all Crtl- A then strike army out on battlefield where ya want em to all meet up. if u just hit the crtl a then select say 5 they will group anywhere they see fit .
note to oher posts.... use the strike command i.e crtl a then strike ur army to its new positon in whichever army command u wish ie 5 all missiles at front. this will stop the army from auto grouping together same goes when u want to change the whole army formation....

[Tomisama]

Ah, the formations master has arrived http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Thanks High

Ok, I can see clearer where confusion can enter.

You can not nest with the (g)roup key, but by using various multiple “group selections”, you can achieve the same effect.

The (g)roup key is temporary. The group (Ctrl+shift) selections permanent.

So, in deployment set groups selections:

0 – all missiles and infantry
1 – missiles
2 – left flank infantry
3 – main line infantry
4 – right flank infantry
5 - left flank cavalry
6 – generals posse
7 – right flank cavalry
8 – all cavalry
9 – all infantry
(of course Ctrl+a would select everyone)

Now also clearer, to execute the army formation commands is a single key press.
You don’t need to have the army formations buttons visible to use them.

Using the setup above:

Press Ctr+0 (selects only missiles and infantry), then press 6 (infantry to the front). The missiles and infantry will march through each other to assume their reverse formation.
To put the missiles out front again press 5, or Ctrl+0 and 5 if you’ve made other selections in the mean time.


http://www.clanwarscomp.org/storage/formations.gif


Edit: Setting this all up in deployment can easily be accomplished by first placing your units where you want them:

Highs Example:

xxxx ------ group 1 (missiles)
xx--g2 xxx--g3 xx--g4
xx--g5 x-GEN xx--g6

Ctrl+Shift select your “sub groups” ( above), and (g)roup them as you go, to get a group bar for each.

Then use the bars to assign the combined groupings.

0 – all missiles and infantry
8 – all cavalry
9 – all infantry

Good Luck

And again thanks HighFist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[KyodaiSteeleye]

High - I use a similar system for custom groups as you. In your answer to me you refer to 'striking out the army' - sorry if i'm being dim, but what do you mean by this?

Dionysus - will check out your suggestion and see how it works, cheers,

Span.

[HighFistRW]

hi again all,
if ur army is all spread out and a mess but still in ur assigened groups 1 through to 6, u can use the crtl-a to select em all but instead of then pressing a group army command say hittin the no'5 key which will group all ur army into one big group with missiles at front inf second line cav 3rd line,the problem as koydia stated is that they could form up anyhwre central to all units. after u select all with crtl-a try hold down the left mouse button and strike across the screen somewhere u want them to form up ( prefable some good terrain )whilst holding down the mouse button u can work ur way through army groups 1-9 and see how they look then let go when u see a set up u like mostly will be 5 or 6, after u have done this the adv is that ur predifined groups of troops stay in there groups and they all dont merge into one big group, which u then have to sort out using ur crtl 1-6 keys and then regoup them into there assigend groups.

does any of this mkae sense ? hehe

hope this helps

like i said i not to good at explaining it :)

have fun all

[Dionysus9]

Thanks for the explanations-- I didnt know you could hold the mouseclick and "ghost" different formations with the presets...thanks

[KyodaiSteeleye]

nice one mate - just tried this on a custom battle - basically you select all units, then alt left button to draw out a position for where you want your units, then, while they are moving you can select a pre-set formation for them to form up in, and they will finish up in this formation, in the position that you want.

Excellente

D.

[HighFistRW]

hehe yea forgot about the alt button, u need to hold that down while u strike ur ghost across screen then press 1 through to 9 to see how they look at there destination

have fun

[Tomisama]

I can see now that the uses for this whole army “ghost casting” go far beyond just regrouping. You can draw em where you want em , facing the way you want em, organized how you want em to be when they get there Even change their formation en route. Whoa

But of course you were all doing that already right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

[Lord Rom]

Nice info Highfist
Rom http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[HighFistRW]

hehe glad to be of service all , but none of u are allowed to use this info in any of my online games as u would now take away any edge i had http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

have fun all

[t1master]

off point, does all the ghosting and marching slow your guys games down? it tends to kill my framerate, especially in 4v4 games.

[HighFistRW]

hiya goat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
i have not noticed that it slows anything down greatly although i have seen game slow down when it kicks off so to say http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif

have fun all

[shingenmitch2]

GAH

ctrl-1, draw line, click.

ctrl-2, draw line, click.

ctrl-3, draw line, click

ctrl-4, draw line, click

ctrl-5, alt click

whoops left general....

click, double click

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[shingenmitch2]

dammit, allies move, enemy move

ctrl-1, draw line, click...

[CBR]

I changed the keys so I can just use "a" for select all and "r" for run. Hit "a", move cursor behind enemy line and click and then hit "r" a few times. Cant beat that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif


CBR

[shingenmitch2]

GAH

I have not perfected Mighty Click. It too skillful CB...

I master only mini-clicks and swiping. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Rob The Bastard]

You guys use a mouse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[shingenmitch2]

Yes, mouse very helpful.

I found work much better than yelling at screen and saying "peasants run forward... no forward... why you stupid little peasants... dammit, I said forward.
Little wiseguy is ignoring me
Serves him right to get attacked...
haha look now you move...
yah just run off board..."

Anyway, not win much that way.

[Dionysus9]

Gah Mitch you must eat head soup http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-vampire.gif to have the mind powers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sultan.gif you seek.

too many side effects http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_fainting.gif for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sick2.gif but Krast http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-batman.gif is proof that long term use is not fatal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-skull.gif...