Hopelessly outnumbered

[dragonchr15]

When you are outnumbered and have no chance of winning and you command the defense personally, what strategies do you use? What units can hold out the longest? I have read many posts where people claim to have defeated massive armies with a small number of men. I believe this is what seperated the great players from the average players.

[nick_maxell]

well - flanking is obviously not an option http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif but it heavily depends what troops you have and which you oppose. eg high morale pikemen or halbs on a hill with some long range unit can best a horse heavy army easily. If you have a few horses you can beat cheap infantry ( I took on a 4500 mix of spearmen, fanatics, archers and peasants with 4 good horse one spear and one archer and won easily)
If you have ranged units go after the general asap, - do not chases when they rout stay in the best defensible position avaiable.
If you have inferior troops and/or no good defensive position - let them die gloriously taking as many as possible with them.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

nick

[Axeknight]

Yeah, I agree with what Nick M says. High valour units can take so much punishment. I love using small, well trained and equipped, battle-hardened vets. They can just do the most incredible things. Watching veteran Byz Inf take on spearmen is quite amazing at first, then just becomes amusing as your 45 Byz Inf hold off 400 spear and peasants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Tactics: Keep to the military crest (eg on the slope facing the enemy, not at the very top of the hill), charge downhill when the enemy is at the steepest point, rout them, then return to the military crest. DON'T CHASE THEM, THEY'LL REGROUP AND KILL YOU Have to make that one very clear. Keep doing this until the day ends, if defending.

[Bhruic]

For me, a lot of it is adapting to what I have in my army vs what the enemy has in theirs. For example, if the enemy has lots of archers, and I have none or little, I generally try and set up in the forest to minimize arrow casualties (unless I'm horse-heavy, of course). If I have a lot of archers, I generally try and find a hill with the back facing the edge of the map (so I can't get flanked), and set up there. If I have better quality troops, I'll sometimes perform a swarm attack to force the enemy to rout.

I guess my point would be that adapting to the situation is really the best tactic that I can think of.

Bh

[Cebei]

When you are outnumbered, your aim should be to rout the enemy, which means, work on their morale. When you began the defensive battle, make sure that your archers are peppering enemy, you got the hill advantage and your units flanks are all protected. Its hard to cause this I know, but try to engage in such a way that all of the enemy units rout at the same time. I disagree with the rest in that respect.. I say follow them in proper formation and get to their reinforcement rally point before the routing units withdraw from the field. When you make it to enemy's rally point, establish a good defense there.. Now you can engage at will with the improperly coming reinforcements.

[SwordsMaster]

I agree with Cebei, if they rout, follow them and dont let them stop running, if you do, they will regroup and youll have to face them again, if they stop one at a time youll kill them easily, and the rest will keep running.
BTW, i use armies of 3Halberds, 2slav warriors, 3 cheap cav with 2 archers.

[Colonel]

If you have some calvary, then I say, when you get them on the run you keep them on the run. lol If you can chase them off the battlefield then they can't rally back to come get you. Just make sure you don't lose the high ground. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
One time, I was defending a castle, and suddenly the whole army routs. So I charged one unit of calvary and chased the whole army off the field, easy victoy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[yonderboy]

You've gotta be REALLY careful when chasing after routers. You never know when it's a feint.

In short... Play King of The Hill and stay there. Kill the general if you get the chance. I've seen myself outnumbered 10-to-1 and still win by killing the general.

Heck, once... the ONLY guy I killed was the general. It was a VERY anti-climactic battle. I was a bit befuddled. Obviously they were low-morale troops anywayz. They were... it was Novgorod w/ a General I'd defeated a few times already. But still... Wow, I wish I still had that replay

[bighairyman]

If you don't have any missile units, then find a batch of tress and stay inside it, it will save you from arrows and enemy horsemen. beside, units becomes invisible, so put a few on the flank and give them a nasty sting. And i never chase the enemy when i am outnumbered (at least 5-1), it better to win then to kill some extra soldiers and lose. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[nick_maxell]

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ Mar. 27 2004,17:48)]I agree with Cebei, if they rout, follow them and dont let them stop running, if you do, they will regroup and youll have to face them again, if they stop one at a time youll kill them easily, and the rest will keep running.
BTW, i use armies of 3Halberds, 2slav warriors, 3 cheap cav with 2 archers.
have to disagree with you guys, but only depending on units used - with good cav in moderate climate - GO and chase
but I would not do that with halberts in the desert. If you don t get the general in the first wave your exhausted and outnumbered troops will meet a fresh opponent and rout instead of having time to rest and let the enemy do the marching and give up a good defensive position.
remember - this thread is about beeing heavily outnumbered, assuming equal troop quality and probably not on easy with morale advantage on your side.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif goes and hides in the trees now ;)

nick

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Although I'm none of a tactical expert, I have won some victories outnumbered and outclassed, only the terrain/climate being on my side recently. (Turks defending Egypt against Spaniards)

Chasing is not the way to go, especially with the ill-moraled units (TH, BC in my case). Instead, a gradual shift of the defense line forward to the enemy location works better. After every wave you route, regroup a few hundred metres forward.

I was lucky to have reserves but intentionally spared them for the very last minutes of the battle. Luckily, I managed to rally my broken units most of the time.
_

[Lord Ovaat]

As everyone has said, it all depends on the type and caliber of the troops involved. When facing a large enemy with numerous reinforcements, I'll initially position on the military slope (as mentioned) when defending. If I want to enjoy the fight, I'll sit it out and take them as they come. However, if I'm peeved at the enemy (broken alliance or such), I'll just try to route them and drive them back to the edge. One can literally slaughter thousands of troops by hitting them in the flank or rear just as they come on the field. Even good troops won't hold for that. I've been able to route and destroy armies outnumbering me five or more to one. No, it's not much fun, but durn-it, you just gotta teach them not to mess with you. It's also helpful to remind yourself occasionally that this is just a game. And it's only an AI doing what it's programed to do. But then, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they really aren't out to get me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

[Axeknight]

If you have some light cav, then you could chase the routers. But only with the laight cav. The line troops should stay where they are in case of regroup/reinforcements. The light cav can keep the enemy on the run, but if they regroup/bring on reinforcements, then they can run back to safety without being caught alone. I disagree with chasing with line troops (eg spearmen, swordsmen, archers) as most map edges are hills, meaning any reinforcement they bring on while the first wave is still leaving, you'll have to fight uphill, as you won't have time to turn around.

[son of spam]

Everyone has given some r good advice so far.

However, I think one tactic (that may be a tiny bit cheap though) unmentioned is to use your light cav or trash unit and divert some of the enemy. The AI is idiotic when chasing your units. I’ve had half of the enemy army chase after a single half-dead unit of alan merc cav. Once you’ve done that and separated the enemy army, you can try to surround and rout the stupid AI that was chasing after your cav, hopefully spooking the other part of their army and causing a mass chain rout.

Even better, then use your light cav to kill those routers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

It would be helpful if you could post your army composition and enemy army composition tho.

[Axeknight]

Defensive army composition: 4-5 spear (as advanced as I can get), 2 sword (for the flanks), 4-5 archers (Bulgarian brigands of Trebizond if orthodox, arbalesters if cath, longbowmen if English), 2 light cav, 1 heavy cav, 1 elite unit (eg varangin guard).

Positioning: I use the classic method of defence

Sw Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp Sw
A A A A A
Lc El Lc
Hc

Where Sp=spearmen, Sw=swordsmen, A=archers, Lc=light cav, El=elite, Hc=heavy cav.

[octavian]

OK, most people here have said it all depends on troop type, however, I'm not so sure, almost any battle can be won with most troops. however, since the enemy has the advantage of initiative, you may not always have the troops you really want. nonetheless, where the enemy has the advantedge of having numbers and movement, you have the the advantedge of terrain. use this to full advantedge take the high ground, also, dont be afraid to move your troops to higher ground if there is some just outside of the fence.

when there is high ground use your archers to the max. put them in supporting roles on the flanks. if they are competant fighters, you can use them as a second wave of assault to break a wavering enemy.

on a more flat area, i like to have a core unit of tough inf. and archers, supported by plenty of cav. which can use the flat ground to their great advantedge, not having to worry about hills or the like.

in a desert situation, no armour upgrades on any of your troops if at all possible, once again archers are effective because they dont have to run around to kill people, plus they can demoralize the enemy given enough casualties.

about chasing down enemys, i have a few simple rules that i follow. a) if the enemy has a lot of reenforcements that are already coming on, reform, period. b) if the enemy has no reenforcements at all, and most of their troops are routing, go all out. c)if you have a good number of cav. you can go for it as long as you feel the conditions are favourable. of course there are always exceptions to these rules, and i may have made a few mistakes in leaving out items that i couldn't think of right now. one benefit of chasing the enemy of the field, if you can get all of them off before any reenforcements get on, the enemy wll retreat automatically.

[SwordsMaster]

Use common sense in short, and give your troops the jobs theyre best at.Hide your swords in the trees, use your cavs to hit the archers, and never lose your advantage... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Kill the general, or at least make him flee. That's a goal in just about any battle, though.

If your enemy wipes out your small force but his best general or ruler picks up a good runner vice, who's worse off?

I had a battle where an overwhelming force of Sicilians attacked my isolated Byz garrison in Naples. I set up my whole army as an ambush aimed right at the Sicilian king. Sure enough, he comes bopping along with his royal knights after some bait, up the the line of trees. Out come the naphtha throwers and about 200 screaming Byz infantry.

The ruler of Sicily must have had a rusty codpiece in his armor when he got home, judging by the way he ran. The whole rest of the Sicilian army ran after him. I hardly lost a man. Didn't cause many casualties either, though.

In another example, a French crusade was coming at me through a sandstorm. I used some Faris to keep up close to the French. I could see them, but they couldn't see me as I maneuvered the rest of my army into position to attack the French leader's unit of Crusader knights. I attacked, killing the French general instantly. The surviving knights ran and the rest of the crusade retreated too.

[katank]

cheesiness warning use light cav to play hide and seek with enemy in trees and/or use hashishins or sherwood forester that are none general set to hold position, hold formation and turn off fire at will to run out timer.

seriously though, positioning counter units at map edge to catach enemy reinforcements as they come in is great.

I once chased the horde routing to the edge of the map and the greeted the reinforcements with volleys of arb bolts from my pav arbs and several units of silver armoured halbs chopping them up as fast as they came.

My entire army was 6+ valour and made quite work of the rest of their army.

the only thing was that I don't have the satisfaction of seeing them rout. They were too close to the edge and died too fast for me to be able to tell if they routed or just died. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[NSS]

Like most people on this thread have posted,adopt a defensive position on a hill and make sure that hill is far,far away from your enemy,then wait for them to bring it on.

Having said that,I usually have one or two arty pieces lying about with my army,as well as about 2-3 ranged units and the requisite spear units (about 3-4) and some cav (usually mtd. sgts and 1-2 knights).

Usually,I reserve this type of army for hilly/mountainous provinces.

Flatland engagements usually see me garissoning more horse-heavy armies and ranged units.

[squippy]

Hmm, under these circumstance I'm actually inclined to favour an aggressive, forward defence - if any proportion of my troops are melee heavies, I will try to ambush the enemy. To do this I deploy as far forward as I can, frequently just in the tip of the deployment zone edge crescent; usually arbs are in range from here as soon as the battle begins. Hopefully, with missiles coming in and melee heavies marching against them, still hopefully in column formation, you can quite conceivably make them pop like a balloon.

[The_Emperor]

If I was in a situation like that I'd choose the strongest position.

A river crossing, a good hill, the Woods, if there are none of those terrain features... Then I am forced to win by outflanking with an inferior force Cannae-style.

Ultimately I try to pelt the enemy with arrows to deplete their units as much as possible. AI Generals tend to get singled out very often for sustained volleys of Arrows Bolts and even Javelins.

Should the enemy general be killed I deliver a shock charge at the moment after his death when the enemy's morale is weakest... Most of the time their line collapses.

If the enemy General survives or is out of range I focus my archer's attention towards the Elite heavy-hitters of the enemy army, Knights, Men At Arms and other Heavy Inf.

The sight of Ultra-Elite units routing on the battlefield strikes fear into the hearts of all below them and can go well towards starting a chain rout...

[econ21]

If you can field the full 16 units, then being outnumbered is not a big deal. The quality of the generals and the mix of units is more important. Running out of arrows can be a problem, but if you have got arbalests, they keep going for a long time. [Sometimes on expert, especially later on in the game, however, the AI units are sufficiently good that their first wave can tear a hole out of your troops so that reinforcements are more necessary.] In these kind of epic battles, the most important thing is to shatter the first wave, hound them off the field with cav and restrain your infantry to avoid exhausting them or getting caught by latter waves.

The harder situation is when you are genuinely outnumbered on the battlefield. In that case, killing the enemy general - or finding some other way to cause a chain rout - is often the only hope.

One cheesy strategy when outnumbered is not to kill the enemy war machines but leave them alone - if there are four on the map, you have effectively reduced the enemy's force by 25% already.

If I am going to lose, I often focus on killing the highest value enemy troops - esp heavy cav. The AI does not build enough of these and so you can often lose a battle, but in the next battle the AIs first 16 units will be significantly weaker. Also bear in mind that you can often ransom back a lot of your routed army - but the AI troops you have shot or hacked to bits cannot be resurrected.

Auto-resolve can sometimes allow you to inflict more casualities as a loser - it does not seem to factor in the kind of morale crash that means your entire army can flee if indifferently led without doing any noticeable damage.

A feature of RTW I am looking forward to is letting numbers count for more, by allowing more units on the battlefield and toning down the influence of general's command.

[Lord Ovaat]

You really must check the pre-battle screen. If the enemy is heavy in missile troops and you have few or none, I've always found it best to deploy as far forward as possible. Hit them hard, particularly their spears and swords. Your cav can then deal with the missiles and keep their cav occupied until your spears come up. AI doesn't use cav often. It's too cheap to build them. Exceptions are heirs, the Horde, and re-emergences. Sitting on a hill without missile troops is suicide. Ask Custer.

Also, as I said above, if they have a lot of reinforcements to bring in, you can drive the initial units off the field and take on each individual unit as it arrives at the edge of the map. Not much fun, a little underhanded, but highly effective.

[TheRookiee]

I play on huge unit size, and this is what works well for that. If I'm going to be in a heavily outnumbered battle, I like to have several units of chivalric sargeants on stand ground on a hill. I put some cav on the flanks to charge their archers or routers. Then I have a bunch of arbs just in front of the sargeants. If they have missile units too, then have pavise arbs. My arbs will just make mincemeat of their troops. Then if they get close, I'll move my arbs behind my sargeants while they attack. My sargeants keep them at bay as they can last a very very long time all the while my arbs just wreak havoc. This works well for the very long battles as arbs have tons of ammo and the sargeants have great lasting power. My cav will do occasional charges to flank or hit them routing or hit their archers when they are unprotected. Otherwise they march back to the hill to rest.

I just stay on the hill until either they whittle me down with sheer numbers, or their army flees the battlefield. They will end up taking HUGE casualties from the arbs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

Oftentimes, their army will just mill around just out of reach of my sargeants trying to determine what to do while they are dieing like flies.

[Obex]

Here is my cheesy advice:

When seriously out maned, i like to go set up in the corner of the map. this eliminates my enemy's ability to flank me, or even choose the approach. i protect my archers with an arc of infantry, and focus them on killing the general. once he is dead, and the army routs, i charge my cav at archery units, who, being out of direct combat, are less likely to flee and are a threat to my cowering in the corner trick. also, i make sure to take out any artillery units while i chase the routers. this is important because the stable moral of the distant artillery seems to prevent a full rout ('the enemy is fleeing the field'), and allows for reinforcement to arrive.

[TheRookiee]

Ooooh; I like it. That is a good strategy especially if you have lots of arbalesters which can fire for a very long time.

[Oleander Ardens]

First of all hello to all; it is my first post here, perhaps some of you know me from the .com where my name is, how else could it be OLEANDER ARDENS


So how do I fight against overwhelming numbers?

As mentioned it depends on the type and quality of your and your enemy's troops, and some nice/cheesy strats have been already mentioned.


With the Russians/Turks I use often armys almost entirely composed of missle units, with a few reliable units of heavy infantry.

A combination of a static point of defense, like a steep hill near the edge of the map and a aggressive way to skirmish greatly helps you - if you have the right units.

Light HA can really hurt the enemy. Not the direct casualities but the fatigue spent by the enemy and the moral loss helps you greatly. Whole armys are often chasing my little groups of Horsearchers, and very often some enemy unit will get isolated to get crushed by my Boyars/Heavy Steppecavalry.

Boyar/HeavySteppe and HA(various types) are one of the finest combos avaiable. A good player with good micro is able to crush the enemy often one by one. The enemy cavalry especially these proud knights get worn down by HA, get exhausted by chasing them and are finished by the Boyars. If the enemy is not extremely strong in fast cavalry this tactic works in good hands against the AI always.

If now you have to fight even/superior numbers of cavalry then skirmish, and offer on/two units as a bait. Draw the enemy cavalry to your infantry, avaiting them well prepared, or lay a with your Halbs a nice trap in a little wood deficiently away of the enemy main force http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

If the enemy has great masses of footarchers, attack if possible the infantry/cavalry first without getting into the range of the missletroops. If it is impossible to avoid getting into the range of them use the Boyars/Steppecavalry in loose order and move quickly after each salve. Hills from which you can snipe at them are a great help...


To sum it up. Use the combination of speed and firepower (and the stupid AI) to break up the superior enemy and engage only when your are sure to win - like a lonely bunch of archers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

Make sure that there is a save spot for your slower/heavier units to make a stand and to which your fast/light can flee or escape.

Use traps to maximize the advantage over some of your own troops over the enemy units - Halbs in woods destroy cavalry


Hope I was helpful

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Hello Oleander.You are hopelessly outnumbered here, but there is no need to resort to cheese. It is a friendly lot we have here and they don't bit...well, most of them anyway. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I hope you'll spend a little time with us too.

As for my contribution to this topic, I have no standard tactics beyond the initial setup in these hopeless situations. The first step is to decide if there is a slight hope I can pull off a victory despite the odds. This might be in a bridge battle situation where there is some hope even at overwhelming odds.

Next, in my setup, I look for the most advantageous terrain for my warriors vs the enemy. I don't use the map edges though - no cheese for my men. Once the battle starts I go with my gut reaction - when I have the choice and my men aren't running from the battlefield. If there is chance for victory, I tend to be more disciplined and keep my men in position and chasing routers with cav if I have them. If defeat is certain and it is only a matter of time, I'll try to inflict as many casualties on the enemy as I can. This usually means chasing the routing enemy if they don't have too big of a head start.

Just call me Blood & Guts: I go with my gut and my men do the bleeding.

[Oleander Ardens]

Hello Gregoshi; Thanks for the nice welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


I hope too that I will stay here for a while..


Came here because I have to upload some pics for the community concerning the Iberian Bull Warrior. Got straight to the Colosseum to post them, but than it said something like your not allowed to post here. First I thought http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif than I saw the rules.
Interesting system, good to get a hold on some troublesome newbs like me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

So the history faction out there is still save for while http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif. Btw how do move up to the Senior faction?


To come back to the topic: you don't have to use cheesy strats like the edge to win, you can use traps instead http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Btw how do you edit your post, had some struggles with the SpelChek http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif


So until later...

[Gregoshi]

Oleander, to move up, just participate in the discussions here in the Entrance Hall so we can do an intense psycho-analytical profile on your personality type. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif In other words, we want to see if you are a good chap. We do promotions about once a week, so give it a few days before you start panicking If nothing strikes your fancy, start your own topic. I'd love to read what you have to say about the infamous Iberian Bull Warrior. BTW, if you do need to reply to a topic in another forum, post it here under the same topic title as the original and add a request to the moderators to copy it over for you.

Lastly, as a Junior Patron, you don't have an edit button. This is just one of the hideous pranks we do to embarrass the new patrons. Muhahahaha. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif

[SwordsMaster]

If youre hopelessly outnumbered,get surrounded.Plant your army in the middle of the map, form a circle,and Stand and Fight as the Manowar said somewhere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Your soldiers will get a +8 moral bonus if they cannot flee, so thats the good way of using all those heavy Halbs with low morale. If they dont fight, they die, simple.

BTW Im evil, i know, but it works.the disadvantage is that you can lose many men too...Dont use it aganst missile heavy enemies.

Welcome to the Org Oleander, and no, nobody likes that bullwarrior.The name is jus ridiculous... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

The old ART OF WAR strat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The pictures about the bull warrior are only there to show that such or similar helms could have been possibly used - there are no prove however.

As soon as I get to the next scanner I will post them...
Now where is the next http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif

[lancer63]

Outnumbered? Ok. Then make the AI 'feel' overconfident of its victory. That will be its undoing.
How? Choose your best infantry for the starting position. Use some 6 ranged units and, the general and the rest should be melee/spear troops. But they must be really tough cause of what comes next. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif
Locate your troops on high ground and or forest. Open battle, rain misiles over the enemy and if possible, kill their commander and as many of their elite as posible. Deplete your ammo cases, withdraw ranged units and mauled non elite units...then let yourself be encircled http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Don't reinforce and fight with 8-9 units, tightly packed if need be, but the trees will absorb 99% of bolts and arrows aimed at you as we all know. Plus you'll present a smaller tougher target. A small professional force in a good defensive position is practicaly invincible.
Those men will wear down some 60% of the enemy. Be patient, never chase routers and keep to the trees.
Only withdraw units that reach the one digit men count. When you think the enemy has had enough call in your relief force you should be able to summon 8 to 9 units at once. Better if they're cavalry. Fall on the remnants of your foe and do to them what they wanted to do to you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

You'll end up with a couple nice defensive v&v's, a good lot of prisoners to enslave or ransom and a hanful of units with a fearful valor rating. But I must warn you, the battle will be long and tedious I have done it succesfuly only twice(against mongols as the biz and against the French playing Italian) and both times on weekends. It was fun to me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif