Archer units (including xbow and arb)

[Sulla]

Personally I use hold position, hold formation in close most of the time. Sometimes in loose but only if my pavs are outnumbered.

Im interested in the result, because sometimes im getting the idea people are totally unaware of the tactics you can employ with Archers/hybrids....

Please respond :)

Sulla

[The Witch-King]

Hold formation, hold position, close, for me too. Putting them on skirmish just means they'll be swept away when they're attacked by cav and if you're really unlucky they'll run right into the rest of your archers. Putting them on hold ensures they'll pin down the cav so you can counterattack with your own cav. Most people will retreat and you can then aim all your archers at the retreating cav and maybe teach them a lesson. Hold position is also very useful, otherwise your archers will pursue their targets and run straight into the enemy lines if you don't pay attention. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[CBR]

Normally I use hold formation, hold position, loose formation for my front pavs. Early era low armoured archers on skirmish as they are faster to reach safety, especially if they are fast archers..but depends.

If I know Im going to get real busy on some distant flank I try to remember to put pavs on skirmish so they have a chance to run to my inf.

Sometimes I use a second line of close formation xbows with fire at will off to make a short range volley against raiding cavalry.


CBR

[ichi]

Very much like CBR, pavs on hold hold close, but archers and non-pav xbows/arbs on skirmish hold pos close.

When I lose about 50% of a unit in a pav war I put em on loose, until they start to waver, then back to close.

Sometimes when I reposition my archer/pavs in tight quarters I place them in a wedge.

Unlike CBR when my archer/pavs get separated from my fighters I place them in wedge and engage-at-will to walk them around unescorted. It doesn't make a much of a difference, 'cause they run or die upon contact with a cav unit, but they seems to do a slight bit better when confronted by infantry. Mainly I do it as a visual reference - I see a wedge and know its a wandering tribe of missiles.

With hybrids like JI, Futs, or LBs I use engage-at-will when they run out of ammo or need to go save my front line infantry from routing.

ichi

[Dionysus9]

pavs on hold/hold most of the time, for achers it depends. I don't do anything spectacular with my missle units. They are just there for fire-support, I guess.

[dessa14]

i will use a variety of the combinations depending on conditions. and terrain may cause a variety of the combinations to be used in one battle.

i use hold form,pos alot it helps keep control of troops.
thanks, dessa

[The_Emperor]

Hold, Hold, Close can be quite good with Pavs.

In one game I had a unit of Pavs in Close Formation, Hold Position, Hold Formation and they were charged frontally by a General's unit of Chivalric Knights.

Given I was fully engaged, but winning the Fighting elsewhere on the field it took a while before I was able to get back to help them. So in the end I got another Unit of Pavs nearby to fire on the attacking unit while the Pavs held him in place... Surprisingly effective.

Still they held up pretty well.

On the other hand I have seen Pavs rout very quickly while Skirmishing... Sometimes even before the enemy hit them.

There is something to be said for them holding position and unloading every last bolt they can into the advancing enemy

[CBR]

ichi:

Oh I didnt mean when my missile were seperated from my army. Only that I would put them on skirmish because Im busy with my cav somewhere else and dont have time to check enemy attacks on my missile.

If my missile do get seperated because I have attacked with my infantry I will either a) have no time to do anything special or b) make sure they are on hold and with fire at will off..sometimes in deeper ranks so they might hold longer against enemy cav coming.

But the wedge for visual reference is a nice one.


CBR

[Crandaeolon]

I typically set x-bows and arbs to a maximum of 3 ranks, l-bows can use 4 for better mobility. I use loose formation if there's enough room or if I'm outgunned.

I don't use Hold Position. Without it it's easier to make small direction adjustments with alt+right click, and pavs starting to run towards the enemy line is a good indication that the unit they're targeting is out of range.

I do use Hold Formation for the -2/+2 stat adjustment, but that's not really a necessity. I consider it to be failed tactics from my part if the enemy horsemen ever get to lance range, and I deserve to lose those pavs so that I might better remember to pay attention next time... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Perhaps it's just my preference of using longbows and cavalry archers, but I like to micromanage my missiles, and that makes HP and HF largely irrelevant. Microing archer units is practically a must, and with pavs it has the added bonus of being able to avoid fatigue with the passive reloading trick.

When the skirmish phase is over, I try to keep the missile units behind the meleeing troops on Fire at Will. I try to not forget about them, as they can be very useful at the endgame.

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ Mar. 29 2004,12:10)]Microing archer units is practically a must, and with pavs it has the added bonus of being able to avoid fatigue with the passive reloading trick.
Hm I would consider that trick to be exploiting a bug and its a bug that isnt known by many AFAIK.

Although its no where near as powerful as the swipe its a bug and exploiting it will generally give an advantage with reduced fatigue for your xbow/arbs.


CBR

[dessa14]

if everyone was told how it worked, i would think it wouldn't be an exploit.
thanks dessa

[CBR]

The problem is that you have to spend lots of time on micro managing your xbow/arb units to gain the advantage. If we all did it, it would just mean wasting everyones time.

No matter what, its still a bug and its something that cant happen by accident, like the swipe could, so there is no real excuse to use it except trying to get an advantage against someone who doesnt know about it.

So yes we could tell everyone about how its done but it wouldnt improve gameplay. I dont see it used much or at least I just dont notice heh it or maybe Im not playing with the "right" people. If its not wellknown I actually dont want to open a can of worms. If it is wellknown we might as well make a post and put it up as a stickie here.


CBR

[Crandaeolon]

Like CBR said, it takes a lot of micromanagement and the gains are rather small, useful only in special situations. Just keep your opponent busy and he won't have the time to be microing missile units.

[Orda Khan]

The advantage gained is usually not worth the effort but some games can be very tense and close and it's at times like these when that extra edge may help.
Some bugs have been addressed and some haven't and a lot depends, as CBR says, on the people you play. Unfortunately we live in a world where success is so sought after, people will take it by any means. Personally, I don't think all these unit compare tools, army morale tools or whatever offer anything to the game either, in fact I am quite suspicious of them. They have quickly determined the majority army choice and I am convinced they can also be used for other exploits.

As for archers......no great mystery ...hold/hold usually but like most things it depends on the situation

........Orda

[Sulla]

What can make a difference in pav shootout is resting your pav's. If they go to 1 bar of fatique, rest them untill they are raised to 2 for a while... The enemy allmost doesnt hit anything because of fatique, and you can attack with doubled strength after a while

Sulla

[CeltiberoMordred]

None of them: hold formation only for pavs, skirmish for archers. Xbows and Arbalesters depend.

Close, loose, wedge, hold position and fire at will depend of the moment.

The units stand better in hand to hand with hold position off, just because they only have to hold their formation. An unit with hold hold lose its formation when it pretends to recover the lost ground due to the pushback. I only use the hold position when I aim the valuable infantry/cavalry.

[Puzz3D]

Isn't it the unit imbalance that is determining the sameness of the armies? I see unit compare tools, logfile readers and army builders as equalizers which allow all players to quickly achieve a high level of competency in purchasing cost effective units. I don't think there is any obligation to use the inferior units. I don't have more "fun" when I use inferior units, but I do have more frustration and it's not because I don't know how to use the units. At least the standard army is comprised of three elements: ranged, cavalry and sword inf, and it didn't come about with rules such as max 4 guns and no ashi as in we/mi v102, although, no artillery is a common rule. I remember there were a lot of players unhappy about fighting against 16 monk armies in STW as well.

I've only seen a couple of people use the ranged unit fatigue exploit. It's not really a major exploit, but I don't like to see it used because probably 99% of the players don't know about it. I hope it's fixed in RTW.

Loose formation for ranged is something of a dilemma for me. You suffer fewer kills, but at the expense of more difficult maneuvering. less concentrated fire, wider frontage to protect and very often not all your men fire. It's good for a couple of units you want to put out there for the purpose of depleting enemy ammo. I doubt any vets will fall for that ploy. However, when used aggressivly such units can't be ignore either.

[Sulla]

Loose is only usefull in certain situations, yes.. It can however be effective in drawing fire when used aggresive. Agreed with Yuuki ;)

[Lord Rom]

I didnt vote as I use archers differently than pav's. Archers I use in the frontline loose. Pav's frontline in close unless Im only using two then its loose just like the archers.

[SwordsMaster]

I usually sent fast archers forward on skirmish, close unless the enemy has also archers in the first line, then i put them to loose.
The pavs are usually part of my mainline so they hold formation and position, the handgunners are better used as swordsmen, they suprise me every time, so theyre on engage at will and tight ranks, and the xbows are a mix of archers and pavs so i use them appropiately depending on the situation.