Viking Campaign Observations

[Boulis]

Is it just me or is the Viking campaign much harder than the vanilla MTW campaign? Keep in mind that my experience is so far limited to playing the Northumbrians and the Scots (Vikings coming up in my next campaign) and the going is tough let me tell you. I always play on normal and in the regular MTW I did always start in the early period, so I'm not a battle-scarred expert or anything, but the difference in difficulty between the Viking campaign and the other MTW campaigns I've played (have won total victory with Italians and Sicilians, 60% with Poles and Almohads) is appreciable.

PROBLEM #1: WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH MERCIA?

In both my campaigns they have just simply EXPLODED although in both they were the first to be raided (IMHO the AI is really crummy as a Viking). They steamrolled over the Saxons (while getting raided constantly) and simply obliterated (in a sad and pathetic fashion) the poor Welsh leaving Mercia with the richest provinces in the game and, well, an unbelievable amount of seasoned troops.
I'm a defensive-minded player and in my Northumbrian campaign I decided to turtle until someone gave me a good reason to attack. I rushed to longboats so the Vikings would be discouraged and that kept them out of my hair. The Picts and Scots savaged each other so they were easy pickings but who wants to lord it over those impoverished provinces? In any case, my woodsmen or fyrdmen were no match for experienced highlanders or berserkers so I stayed put and watched them fight to a stalemate. Eventually, one of them attacked me but by that time I had Saxon huscarles (and a lot of them and thank god they attacked because I was going into serious debt with my turtling - those huscarles sure do eat a lot) so...I beat them both to a pulp and it was north v. south. The Irish with their awesome starting position had quickly gotten control of the Emerald Isle and made a bid against the Mercians by transporting a huge amount of troops but you will not believe how fast the Mercians smacked them while still keeping 7k+ troops on the Northumbrian border
By this time the Vikings (aside from some ships) had completely disappeared. The Mercians now had the whole of Ireland plus everything south of the original Northumbrian border. I had the Isle of Man and Domon (and I controlled the seas - something I always try to do no matter who I play). Hm. Can you say outclassed? The Mercian hordes then started their wave attacks on my southern border. Wow. I beat them off six separate times (with very lopsided losses on his part) but the thing is he was making way more money (no trade when it's one v. one naturally) so he could replenish troops much faster then I could. My doom was inevitable. Luckily, I could see the writing on the wall early and had already made fifteen three star assasins which I used with extreme prejudice against him and his entire brood. I ended up with a total victory and it was really total since I also (through more underhanded trickery and bribery - no other way of course) got control of the two Norse provinces. Still, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth to assasinate your way out of a serious jam.
Now, as a Scot, I am faced with a massive Mercian empire again. This time I didn't even turtle -- I crushed the Picts in the first ten to fifteen turns and also took Strathclyde and that Northumbrian province to the east of it. Also took the Isle of Man again but the Picts reappeared on Domon and that's where they're staying since I own the seas. Irish kicked me out of Ulster but a small price to pay. But guess what? Even with my highlander blitzkrieg it was still not fast enough - by the time I consolidated Scotland and Strathclyde, Mercia had beaten and swallowed the Saxons, left Northumbria with three provinces and the Welsh with two -- all the while being constantly harassed by the Vikings. Ten to fifteen turns later the Welsh and Northumbrians were extinct and the Vikings were once again an amusing but irrelevant sideshow. Guess who's next?
This time, though, no Saxon huscarles for yours truly, so defense is MUCH harder. He's attacked me three times (we were allies too) and although I again won lopsided victories (less so than last time because I really have no answer to his huscarles) my forces on the border are gone and money even for mercs is running out fast. His coffers are of course brimming over with florins and plenty more sky-blue hordes where those came from. So...

PROBLEMS #2 and #3: WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH MERCIA?

Is there any way (short of assasination) to deal with this seemingly inevitable Mercian explosion of troops, territories, and endless amounts of florins? I imagine things are different if you are a Saxon player or a Viking player (and maybe Irish because of the great starting pos) but Mercia is so powerful so quickly if you are not playing one of those three factions. What to do?

Suggestions?

BTW - I LOVE the Viking campaign and I LOVE that it's challenging. So the above is not a complaint - just a request for strategic advice.
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[Accounting Troll]

I've beaten Mercia as both the Welsh and the Northumbrians, but I can't do it alone. I ally with Mercia as soon as possible, which leaves Mercia free to concentrate its forces on its southern border - Mercia seems to regard Wessex as its main rival because those two factions get the richest provinces. I build up my forces, wait for Mercia to start grinding down Wessex and then launch a simultaneous attack on as many Mercian provinces as I can. Wessex will rally, and Mercia will collapse into civil war. This leaves Wessex as my main rival, so I ally with Wessex and wait for them to pick a fight with someone else.

As far as I can see, the only way that the Scots can beat a Mercia controlling Wessex is to ally with the Picts at the start, and concentrate on building up their navy and conquering Ireland. They can then support armies big enough to stand a chance of beating Mercia.

[PseRamesses]

The only way to play others than Mercia, Saxons and the Vikings are quite simple actually... if you are lucky to be left alone for a while, 15-30 years, which isn´t impossible since everyone wants peace in the beginning.

Welsh:
1. Build abbeys quick.
2. Go for all other money upgrades as soon as possible.
3. No need for boats since you have no tradegoods.
4. Build military only in Pouis and go for Welsh Bandits as soon as you can.
5. Take Guined, Defet and Manau (you can build 2 boats in Pouis to protect your shore.
6. When you strike, strike the two Mercian provs at your border. They will most likely be preoccupied with the Saxons. Take also the western prov of Northumbria. Now, you have added just one more border province, from 3-4, but gained income significantly.
(7. Alternate: blitz the Mercians directly.)

Northumbrian:
1. Abbeys
2. Ships in Lothene and Dere. You have several tradegoods to sell and the Vikings are keen on your shores.
3. Military in Beornice
4. Agents in the rest + money upgrades.
5. Strike Lindissi, Mercia and Pec Saeatan (or is Wrocen Saetan?)
(6. Alternate: Blitz the Mercians directly.)

Picts:
Same as above + strike Scots first then Ireland.

Scots:
Same + strike Picts the Ireland.

Irish:
Same + only one way to go ;) + take Manau and build ships.

If you are the build up guy you say you are then get peace with everyone, take neighbouring rebs and build only military in your capitol for the first 16+12 years = basic farms or forrest clearing and Abbeys. The Abbeys is the key to a small underdeveloped faction in VI.

[Axeknight]

Nice to see everyone raiding and pillaging my island http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Still, we need something different over here

[Boulis]

Thanks everyone for the prompt and extremely helpful replies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

I have some comments on some of the suggestions.

Accounting Troll:

1.) I think your idea of a preemptive strike while still allied with the Mercians is excellent. It would no doubt work with Northumberland but I think it's a bit harder to pull off with Scotland. The whole thing (accurately in my opinion) is based on a conquest of Ireland which was my idea from the beginning. So I had to choose: take the time to build a boat or two then transport troops over while stripping my provinces on the Pict border of troops (not a good idea with this AI even if you're allied; also because the Vikings are in Scottish waters by turn 2 usually) or just pound the Picts and let Ulster fend for itself? I chose the latter because I figured I could more easily take the Picts than the Irish in the early turns. My highlanders are available immediately but the specialized Pict units (missile primarily) take time. As it was, it was his expensive 2-year Berserkers and CeltWar's vs. hordes of my 1v Highlanders. The Irish are not all that strong early either but by the time even a boat comes around he might have gallowglasses etc. - more than a match for my highlanders. As rich as Ireland is (I don't know I haven't really explored it) I could get more provinces with the Picts. Finally, a skeleton garrison in Scotland proper would have to defend three provinces but my garrison in Ulster only one. I still think it might have been a mistake to choose to hit the Picts first but neither was willing to ally right away which meant they were both having the same ideas about me...As it was, my conquest of Pictland was VERY fast (10 turns, maybe less, certainly not more I think) but I was still booted from Ulster by the Irish. But I then had only 2 borders to defend and all of Scotland proper plus the Isle of Man so I thought I was home-free. No. Even by that time Mercia had already wittled Wessex down to 2() provinces and had started a war with Northumbria. But I agree with your general point - you can't beat being alone on a large island to build troops in peace so I think next time I will for sure try hitting the Irish first. That, though, means Wessex and Wales and Northumbria are so much cannon fodder for the sky-blue hordes.

PseRamesses:

1.)I have abbeys in 9 of 13 provinces in this campaign and I was making 2800 a year before this war started and was up to 25k when the Mercians attacked. I was also in total control of the sea. But all that pales in comparison to the oodles of money the Mercians get once they crush Wessex. Blitzing them is hard since they don't share a border with Scotland and I am busy with either the Picts or Ireland. By the time I'm ready he certainly has taken out Wessex and most probably Wales and is eyeing up Northumbria. Furthermore, I still have highlanders as my best swordsmen but he now has militia sergeants, urban militia, and (of course) the dreaded huskarles. As it was, I still managed to pry away the two (one plus Strathclyde not really Northumbrian) northern Northumbrian provinces before he conqured the rest. I think your Welsh advice is awesome and the Northumbrian plan is not too far different from what I did in my last campaign - except for by the time I felt good enough to strike south the Scots attacked me and I had to deal with them and the Picts before hitting Mercia.


I thank you both for the excellent suggestions. One other problem in this Scottish campaign is I got greedy and when Cerniu rebelled (sw corner)I bribed the army there, which really angered Mercia. Now I have three borders to defend -- but still, he was going to attack me sooner or later. I thought he might be distracted with Cerniu but he still manages to keep 6k on his northern border with me while outnumbering my Cerniu garrison 2 to 1 (and that's with a lot of mercs who have evaporated my hard-won savings). Ah well. Gah

[bighairyman]

I don't get why merica is so hard, they also fights into a stalemate with the Saxons in my games. Their wars will always explode onto the Welsh, so it often becomes a three side war with the Welsh losing fast. Fast forward ten years, the Vikings will started to raid the south, and again it will turn into a three side war, but this time it will continue as a stalemate. that's where i'll come in(often as the Irish, or the Scots), with ports and ships in every sea, i can easily conquer and hold a couple of provinces fast, and use those as a stage to perform more attacks. So often i'll ally with the vikings(because of their navy), and together we crush the Saxons and the Mericans. Somewhere near the end, i will also attack the Vikings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . But a couple of years before that, i will put tons of priest on their two islands. So by the time i attack them, they'll be Christians, and then 2 emissaries and a couple thousand florians, Bam, the vikings will be surrounded, and i kill all three countries in a series of battles and sieges http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

[katank]

I don't find it hard at all for a neighboring faction to take out mercia.

Just use loads of mercs for early rushing.

Welsh, Saxons, and Northumbria all have good shots of taking Mercia like that.

Take all starting troops exceptin garrisons and attack Mercias with it while building an inn in the neighboring province the first turn.

On the first turn, gather all troop on the border. THe next year, pour across and sack the province.

The inn would be filled to the brim with big war so hire up a storm and unleash upon the mercians.

Though the merc use may almost bankrupt you at the start, the Mercian lands are rich enough to pay that back very soon.

[PseRamesses]

An early rush is almost always successful but for a player who play a more strategic approach the overpowered Mercians IS a problem. This is easy to mod by lowering their prov income, taking away trade goods etc but I see the dilemma that som players face since a rush means leaving your homeland virtually undefended.
As always a player needs to have a clear strategy when he starts of what to do and when to do it. One of the most important strategies playing the Welsh and NB´s is either an early rush on the Mercian or be left alone for the first 30 years for income buildup and then a nutrition war.

[son of spam]

Don't worry about your homelands

do a nation move

[katank]

I also like the nation move idea especially since in VI there is no GA and you don't give a damn about home provinces.

You can simply displace and become the Mercians if your homelands get shafted.

BTW, nutrition war? you do mean attrition war, right?

I find that it's best to let the Mericans take on the Saxons for a few years and then attack to have them worn out but also not too early to give Saxons a victory you earned.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 31 2004,19:55)]I also like the nation move idea especially since in VI there is no GA and you don't give a damn about home provinces.

BTW, nutrition war? you do mean attrition war, right?
Even though VI doesn´t include the option to play GA-style I do anyway so my homelands are always important. But the nation move idea is strategically sound.

Katank, thanks for the correction, attrition was the word I was searching for.

[Boulis]

I agree with PseRamesses -- it just feels more realistic to me (whatever that means) to protect the traditional homelands while expanding and makes the game more enjoyable (for me again) as a result. I rationalize it away by saying to myself that it is nice to keep the provinces that provide valor bonuses to your specialized troops -- like Sci (I think) for Scottish Highlanders -- but in my mind I know that the sounder strategy is to go ahead and perform an early rush/nation-move.

BTW, I think I figured out what to do as an alternative to either rushing or assasinating my way out of a jam -- tell me what you guys think. Keep in mind that this involves a slow build-up as PseRamesses advised in an earlier post which, in turn, implies that Mercia will eventually emerge as your superpower rival in the last stages.

Since it's easier to defend the borders, especially if there are just a few provinces you have to defend (or none if you're playing the Irish), I figure you could build up healthy border garrisons to receive the inevitable sky-blue hordes and then have one or two armies in reserve to attack Mercian coastal provinces that are undergarrisoned as result of the Mercian king piling most of his troops up near your border. Of course, you must control the seas totally to employ this stratagem. This is a variation of the pillage and burn tactic someone wrote about in another post. You then destroy all their buildings and remove sources of income one by one -- if he approaches with overwhelming force you simply leave. The obvious problem is what happens if you destroy the port in your initial attack? You then have to wait four years to make your withdrawal -- more than enough time for him to shift troops to the trouble spot. Hopefully, your attacking/raiding army is either large enough to withstand one or two such assaults, or you can divert his attention by attacking across the border areas you share with him. Of course, Mercia, by the end, has more than enough troops to go around but this is a way to maximize an advantage (control of the sea) while poorer finacially. Anyway, just an idea...