Pillage & Burn

[Obadiah]

Hi all. I'm kind of new around the game. I've seen people post about pillage and burn as 1) a revenue stream, 2) a fun hazing tactic, and 3) might as well, b'c I can't afford to hold it, but I haven't heard people talk about it as a victory tactic.

I'm interested in people's comments on the following.

I'd gotten into a 2-way war for victory: i had the northwest half of the map/world, Turks (with several huge armies) have southeast half. The Horde's coming in about 20 years. Thanks to tiny Byz and Hungary remnants, and the Gibralter Straits, we didn't share any common front and weren't at war yet. I wanted to wrap it up quickly to start another campaign.

Strategy: I decided that the key was ensuring that the AI couldn't replenish units - a war of logistics, supply train and attrition. I began the war at sea and sank every Turk ship before attacking any provinces. Once I owned the water, I had two armies attack separate lightly defended provinces, pillage and burn every building, and then move to the adjacent province. After doing this to a couple of provinces, the AI'd have a major stack ready for me, and I'd ship out to home, replenish troops, then do it again at another lightly defended location. Hit, burn, run. While I haven't taken out its major stacks, I've pretty much destroyed its ability to generate new troops (not to mention revenue - but I assume it has enough in the bank that it can carry its army for awhile- don't know for sure, though). So, once I DO take on its major stacks, there won't be any retreat and repair for them I figure another 5 years, max, and they'll be history.

It also occured to me that this is actually a very common modern war tactic: bomb the factories Cut the supplies and watch the enemy army grind to a halt. Why fight it when you can starve it from a distance? I suppose, of course, that this tactic was practiced in history, albeit with a focus on farms and food, rather than 'factories', as they didn't really exist in 1100AD.

Any comments from the more experienced gamers?

[NSS]

Well....from my own point,these tactics will work for the moment,but then you'll need to start conquering territory again at some point,since from the way you put your situation,you must be in Domination.

By the way,it might be fun to watch the Turks take on the GH,let them fight each other to exhaustion,then jump in and take as many territories as you can.

Though I must profess that I've never tried this hit'n'run strategy as a full-time thingy.I've always been more of a slowly but steady expansionist with normal troops waiting behind my spearhead armies to begin garrisonning newly conquered provinces.

[Sun Tzui]

Well...hit'n'run strategy might be cool for awhile, just for slowing down your opponent, should you be in a difficult situation, but when i move my armies, i always like some opposition to mop the battlefield with http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-behead.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-devil.gif ....

I personaly don't use it much, except in a most dire situation... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Lord Ovaat]

Obadiah;

You mentioned Straights of Gibraltar was a separation as I understood it. Are you using Med Mod? If using the regular game, remember you can use buildings you acquire by conquest, so destroying them isn't always wise. However, when playing Med Mod, I consistently destroy buildings I don't need when capturing a non-homeland province. I only keep those improvements which will make money, make the rabble happy, or enable me to make agents. You can make some bucks by razing all military buildings (except town watch which makes the peasants feel secure), and that effectively hampers the enemy should you then lose the province. You could also salvage siege engineer & foundry, since these are faction-unique in Med Mod and you can only produce in more than one province by capturing another faction's goodies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Obadiah]

NSS: I've played up to this point, like you, as advancing a slowly expanding front, never giving back what I've won unless its taken from me (rarely, indeed). So this was a real change of strategy for me (and I've seen threads debating whether there even IS any strategy in MTW). I will of course have to go head-to head vs Turks' troops eventually, but this way what the AI has now (troops) is all he'll ever have. The slaughter'll start soon ps- I had thought about letting them face the Hoard, but as I said, I'm a bit impatient with this campaign, and want to move on, so I set this as a kind of bet with myself: how quickly can I exterminate them?

Sun: My point was to blow out his infrastructure; body blows (phase 1) before aiming for the army stacks (phase 2). Hit and run, while litterally accurate, implies that I was just harrasing them like a fly: annoying, but structurally harmless. I think this doesn't generally work in MTW b'c it necessitates dominant transportation/ accessibility to enemy's prov. In a more traditional France vs. HRE, I don't think you could do this tactic.

Lord O: No, I'm just playing 'basic' no-mod (havne't played enought to get to that yet. I knew I could re-use the buildings, but I've done a pretty good job of building up my western Eur provinces, and so don't really need them, esp. since my navy carries troops anywhere in a turn. Re- the Straights, I meant that despite a few years of naval attacks, I still appeared to be at peace with Turks. I assumed this was because we didn't have any adjacent prov's. Does Spain-Africa count as adjacent b'c of the no-ship-needed-to-cross line? I'd assumed not. Otherwise, it looks like something funny was going on...

[The_Emperor]

The Pillage and Burn tactic can be a little too effective as the Muslims.

Once you take and enemy province and raise hell in it burning and stuff, you can then withdraw, and are then free to target them again for Jihad...

Hooray for Jihad's, Instant Armies for Only 200 florins http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Still its very gratiffying to pillage and burn in the game, especially as the Vikings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Bhruic]

I personally never use this style (or any other pillage/burn style) because the computer doesn't use it (as anything other than Vikings in VI I should add). It strikes me as pretty unfair to hit the computer with a strategy it can't emulate, and I rarely, if ever, need the extra help defeating the computer.

Bh

[Lord Ovaat]

OBADIAH;

My personal experience has been war continues if you have adjacent provinces or ships in the same waters. As I read in a post not too long ago, it's the Mom, Spain's still touching me thing. I cracked-up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Obadiah]

Bhruic: The computer can't, so its not fair - interesting idea. But I'm not sure I agree. The point of strategy and tactics is to find creative solutions to challenges, regardless of whether the other person (AI) can, or has thought of it or not. Having discovered the strategy, and proven to myself that it works, (and made it more exciting by setting myself the goal of wrapping up the game before the Hoard) I certainly don't plan to replicate it or rely on it in future campaigns- BORING But I like having found it.

Also, I saw in another thread (What would you like to see in Rome TW?), that someone wanted more of a relation b'w a provinces size and its ability to support an army. Some barren dessert shouldn't pretend to support (ie, feed) a huge army that might hang out there for 10 years. I agree that it'd be great to have that built in. It'd be another aspect on the same indirect combat that I discovered here.

Again, its not like I don't go at it in head-to-head battles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Mar. 30 2004,11:57)]The Pillage and Burn tactic can be a little too effective as the Muslims.

Once you take and enemy province and raise hell in it burning and stuff, you can then withdraw, and are then free to target them again for Jihad...

Hooray for Jihad's, Instant Armies for Only 200 florins http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
That's very true. You don't garrison the place and let rebels take it over, if nobody else will.

Then, the next time you need an army. just add water.

(But don't Jihads cost 500?)

[Sternness]

Heh, funny stuff. That just happens to be just about what I'm doing with my German HRE (although crusades are not as cheap). I essentially crusade to one of the steppe provinces, scare the Novgorod out with a large army, pull back once I take control of the province, and then go at it again as soon as another orthodox nation takes it over. Lather, rinse and repeat and I'm looking at a hefty stack of Teutonic knights and sergeants.

Oh, and btw, Greetings All http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif I've been playing MTW for a couple months now and -- as you can probably infer from my post count and date of reg -- I just recently found these great forums. See you all around.

[Doug-Thompson]

Greetings, Sternness http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Sir Zack de Caldicot]

Yes, Greetings Sternness http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Welcome to the org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
SZDC

[Bhruic]

Quote[/b] (Obadiah @ Mar. 30 2004,15:43)]The point of strategy and tactics is to find creative solutions to challenges, regardless of whether the other person (AI) can, or has thought of it or not.
That's one way to look at it, I guess. My interest is in playing a challenging game, so I try and limit the degree of cheapness (based on my viewpoint) that I endulge in. Things like swarming a king with assassins when he has no heirs, stretching out ships along every shoreline to take advantage of trade, etc. Basically, anything that I can do which the AI can't/won't, because it hasn't been programmed to. Included in that list is using pillage and burn tactics. Using any of those decreases the difficulty for me, which results in me having less fun (although if it were a multiplayer game, I'd certainly play the game differently).

With that said, there's nothing wrong with finding hey, this is a useful strategy. If you like looking for that sort of thing, and it's fun for you, go nuts. :)

Bh

[katank]

I don't slash and burn unless I'm running outta cash, need it bad and thus sends excess troops on long crazed rampage behind enemy lines.

It works too well as the AI is pretty dumb and paint half the map rebel grey before any major force catches up to me and destroy my suicide army.

I would say if you want to kill them, then just engage and destroy their main armies already the AI don't replenish troops intelligently anyhow.

BTW, ransoming prisoners would already bankrupt him.

Also, from all the sunk fleets and defeats, the Turks might be ready for a civil war. They appear to be a nation of Benedict Arnolds.

In addition, the Horde would just romp over them.


As for jihads, this is really cheap but you can launch multiple jihads at a province.

In an early Turk game, I spammed Imams to get my muslim pop and zeal way up in several provinces and then spammed jihad markers in them.

When the GH appeared, I took back the provinces very quickly by launching all my Jihads

It was funny to see my 50k outnumbering their 20k.

I then used this army to overrun all of Europe. After taking down the horde, the rest seems like a romp.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Welcome to the ORG Sternness http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I tend to roleplay in my games, which also effects whether or not I use the scorched earth strategy.

Playing the English, I laid waste everywhere that I wasn't planning to stay. Now, as Almos, I'm yet to need it; I was about to lay waste to Aquitaine and Toulouse but the Germans were there in time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

It pays off against the Horde, true, but I don't think I'll have to deal with them in this game. The Byzes will probably wipe them off after the quick shock lifts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
_

[PseRamesses]

Since I play Ga-style the game sometimes gets a bit tideous waiting for the next attack. This is when I take time to raid and pillage overpowered factions and helping out thoose who are in trouble.

[mfberg]

Some games as Muslim I pillage any area built up enough to build a crusade. I merc rush Europe, following kings through their countries burning everything that moves, and leaving the tiny rebel/loyalist armies in my wake.

In every game when someone Crusades against I merc rush that country, (sometimes I hit the crusade before it has left its homelands) and burn everything in every town.

mfberg

[katank]

pillage any high tech civ? esp. the ones that crusades against you?

that's nice.

Hey, France. Nice country you got there and chapterhouse esp. How would you like to see it razed to the ground? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I do that too but soon got tired of it as it was enough of a chore to try to get the AI to build decent armies and give a challenge that I decided not to raid and burn them.

[bighairyman]

Pillage and burn is a very good tactic in a prolong war, it:

1) destroys usable supply, equipment, food(crops), etc

2) destroy the will of the people, nearby soldiers, and maybe the central government.

3), destroys the country so future wars with the same country will be easier.

4), just shows the people the horrors of war, so next time, they will think twice before declaring war.

My favorite general using the tactic is Sherman, the Union general during the (US) civil war with his famousMarch to the sea
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[katank]

yep, sherman was probly one of the pioneers in this regard although I remake history in making the gallant el cid the ultimate pillage machine. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[gaijinalways]

I've found though that the 'dumb' AI is able to build buildings and troops fatser in some cases and starts with more cash. Also, in cases where groups of AIs gang up on you, the slash and burn seems justified to raise cash for mercs or to simply disable troop building and revenue producing provinces of your main opponent(s) in the later stages of the game.

Finally, creating rebellions in some areas is another reason to do this as it may make it easier to take over the province later and/or creat a buffer zone between you and an opponent.

[Sun Tzui]

Quote[/b] ]4), just shows the people the horrors of war, so next time, they will think twice before declaring war.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif

Not that this forces the AI to make peace with you

Even when I'm beating the crap out of the AI, it just keeps coming for more...:duel:...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Obadiah]

Maybe I give (gave?) the AI too much credit for being able to re-generate its army's. The Turks did outside me at the time...

Re history, didn't Romans raze Carthage to the ground and salt its fields so they'd never even be able to rebuild the city, let alone return as a military enemy? Maybe they'll build THAT into the next version