Multiplayer tactics...

[Zen Blade]

Ok,

So, I haven't played Multiplayer in a long time... and this weekend I tried to play a bit (under a different name) and seemed like the game has totally changed...

EVERYONE (that I played) uses the same tactic. Muskets, grind down, then wait... enemy charge, move forward H5 (or greater spearmen) move two cav units to each side... wait.. wait... enemy routs.

I played about 10 games, and this is what I saw on them all.
And every game had at least 7000 koku. No small koku battles anymore, battles where morale and strategic attacks actual tend to make a difference.

How is this fun? Back in the day (before Warlord) you could play 10 matches and see 10 very different styles of play and creativity actually seemed to make a difference. AND there was variety. If you charged a gunline, you could actually win (go forward with a couple in middle, swing one direction).

I don't know, but what are some other ppls observations with regards to current multiplayer in Total war? Any favorite tactics, unique tactics... what is better armor/attack/honor upgrades? Can you win without muskets?

-In the old game I could win more often than not without muskets when I was on. Maybe I'm just WAAAAY out of practice. But, the game seems to be completely different than it was when I played often.

well, thanks for reading my bitching.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[TheHobbit]

I can't even play online. It says I need a name and I'm unable to register one. Totalwar.com is down, at least it appears to be on my end.

[Puzz3D]

If you are roughly equal in skill level to your opponent in a 1v1 game, and you loose the range battle by 120 muskets or more, it's almost always a lost game at that point on a flat, open map in dry weather. You can't sit because those 120 muskets have the potential to kill 400+ men. So, you have to charge. However, the infantry is 25% slower now, and the charge almost always fails.

People who use lots of guns say they can be defeated with proper tactics, but that doesn't seem to stop them from using them. I can tell you that the tactic that was supposed to work in the v1.02 doesn't. Cavalty was supposed to be the counter unit of the guns, but it doesn't work very well for a variety of reasons. It is possible to attack the guns with cavalry, and then pull the cav back before it's killed by spears. It's tricky to do, and I'm not really very effective doing it since I usually end up loosing my cav to a pumped up YA. Of course, the purpose of doing that is to win the gun battle because it's a pretty easy win after that.

MizuYuuki ~~~

[Orda Khan]

Yes Sengoku Jidai is full of guns I tried no guns and with guns - still lose hehe. Had success last night with YC charge. Destroyed one musket unit,I was pleased with this however outcome still the same. Rest of army routed by YA. The answer to guns ?? I don't know. No guns or limit to 1 or 2 units rule but then I fear this is not popular. My favourite is to try and look good as you die.
..........Orda


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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

[Cheetah]

Guns are inescapable in 1v1 but you can do pretty well without them in 4v4, it all depends on teamwork and co-ordination. I agree that 1v1 battles tend to have the same pattern noted by many. Certainly, this makes them less fun. But the variety of tactics in a 4v4 battle are almost limitless, and if you add the available maps and the influence of maps on tactics then there is no need to worry about uniformity and boredom http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif To put it simple: play 4v4 friendlies!!!



[This message has been edited by Cheetah (edited 04-28-2002).]

[NinjaKilla]

Quote Originally posted by Zen_Blade:
EVERYONE (that I played) uses the same tactic. Muskets, grind down, then wait... enemy charge, move forward H5 (or greater spearmen) move two cav units to each side... wait.. wait... enemy routs.

I played about 10 games, and this is what I saw on them all.

How is this fun? Back in the day (before Warlord) you could play 10 matches and see 10 very different styles of play and creativity actually seemed to make a difference. AND there was variety. If you charged a gunline, you could actually win (go forward with a couple in middle, swing one direction).[/QUOTE]

This is the reason I still play STW. I think the prime problem with MI is the speed, which doesn't give you enough time to manouvre units. The end result of this is there is less emphasis on tactics and people follow set patterns of dumbying cav runs at lines of guns... something that became very tedious to me.

Before I get slated for saying this *glances at Tera http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif* I know I haven't played MI that much and perhaps I haven't given it a real chance, but the reason for this is because I simply didn't enjoy it.

Zen, jump into olde shoggy again! Kenchi are still active on there along with Insane clan and 7Bear7 (both of which deserve a lot of credit for keeping the server alive!). With any luck a few people will give it another go, I know from MSN chats that there are a few people who are a bit fed up with MI...

*NinjaKilla's one man crusade rumbles on* Hehe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)

[This message has been edited by NinjaKilla (edited 04-28-2002).]

[LordTed]

Play what everone does to your advantage. When you do something different they crap them selves.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

I agree with the gamespeed, its justa bit too high. i liked the gamespeed in the old demo.

It doesnt suprise me that eventually, like in chess and checkers, when the best players mete the game will be all the same. U have a shootout and he who lost the shoot out must plan the rush. But imo this was also the case in old shogun. If we all migrate back to stw u will see the same thing, believe me.


The overall basic problem aint the gamespeed or the gameversion. IMO its the 16 unit limitation. with 16 units there isnt enuf room to create the chaos u will have in 2 vs 2 , 3 vs 3 and esp 4 vs 4 games. although i like 3 vs 3 the most. (in 4 vs 4 u start immediatly with chaos) In a balanced 3 vs 3 game eventually something will occur that triggers the moment where chaos starts. Being able to control this moment of chaos brings an advantage and brings the big tactical point of this game. in a 3 vs 3 u play with 48 vs 48 units...

The probelm starts with the gameengine as well. it doesnt allow u to have reserves, since if u lost the first major combat ur more likely to lose the game due to the routing units that affect instorming fresh troops. SO timing become majorly important.

SO reducing teh gamespeed, increasing the unitallowance and being able to assign smart AI-commanders to units for units that are to far away for the generals Span Of Control will bring a more realistic game.

what u think?

[tootee]

Some may have noticed, I have stop using guns and YA in my games, and I'm having a lot of fun because my game is totally different now. It forced me to adopt different techniques to deal with the conventional army.

Not claiming much success but I found the games more fun now.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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Well MI eliminated the problem of becoming a highly skilled player in order to win. Just that.

In what ways? Guns and @ssholes. Old STW is the same but there are nil to very few morons unlike MI. And I think THAT is the problem...people DON'T CARE anymore of different tactics, different armies, different styles of play, honourable behaviour, fun - they want the honour number and will seek it with any way possible leading to a boring game.

Tera.

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[TheHobbit]

If someone helps me figure out a way to play online I'll be honorable. I'll fight fair, just help me out. Don't make me beg!

[NagatsukaShumi]

Register your name Hobbit, but if it doesn't work, e-mail EA or CA.

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[Jemasze Toda]

Hmm, it IS possible to use a huge variety of tactics in MI, no matter what many people think. I tried dozens of different battle set-ups and tactics and i have lots of fun doing so. For example a Naginata-charge is incredibly funny and ALL cav-armies ( or 4 guns + rest cav) lead often to very interesting games especially against the ever boring gun-YS or YA-NC armies. You can experiment with Ninjas ( indeed they are wonderful in certain battle-situations) or strong ranged units orientated armies ( and with only 2,3 or 4 or none at all!! guns that is). In MI you still have soooo many possibilities to choose from that there is definately no boredom in the army-setup. But i agree with Mag that a 20 units+ army would increase the fun even more, especially if we get bigger maps as well.
BUT too many people are just not very imaginative. They see one successful tactic when playing against a good player, adopt it and never vary it much anymore...lack of skill or patience i assume, because you might (and most certainly WILL ) loose more often when playing many different styles.
I have lots of respect for players who are actually able to vary a lot, such as JerichoPrime, who invented the Über-Ashi and demonstrated the value of Ninjas even in open field-battles or the ever imaginative AMP, argueably the very best player online.
( Hehe i haven't forgot YOU, Mag you are a class of your own...)
I must admit though, that i am one of those bastards who take immense fun out of playing undercover with 612 different names and by that kick many HUGE Ego-boys in the ass, more often than not. Uhh, ohh i am such an Egomaniac myself! Damn...hehe
Some day i might walk with that melodramatic character Jemasze out of the shadows again into open light....

yours Jemasze (who? never heard of him)

Don't be afraid to play unknown names, even if it is a vet playing undercover...you might learn a bit, hehe

Jem!!!

How the hell are you mate?!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
You're coming back? I really hope!

Tera

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[Jemasze Toda]

Tera!!

Nice to see you again too!
Honour to you and your mighty clan!!

If you fight a strange unknown name some day, that might be me! hehe

yours Jemasze

Heh, yes I wish to see you mate! very much! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Tera.

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka).
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif

[Major Robert Dump]

nice to see u around jemasze, now if i only knwe your other names so i could avoid comp games against u http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
...SO reducing teh gamespeed, increasing the unitallowance and being able to assign smart AI-commanders to units for units that are to far away for the generals Span Of Control will bring a more realistic game.

what u think?[/QUOTE]


Interesting. No unit limit. So, with 10000 koku... you can get... uh... 100 H2 YA!

That would be interesting. A surefire way to make your case on the quantity vs quality debate.

I don't know about the AI commander thing, though.

It would be nice if you could give march/path/attack orders and LATER tell them to execute it. That way, you can set every unit or group's orders without them going off while you set the next units'. You can this way set all orders, then with one command tell the whole army to execute their individual orders at once. Improves timing planning in that you dont have to hurry up and order the next unit to march after the first has already started down its path.

I think that would be far better than entrusting your army to a dubious AI...

We are talking IDEALS here, right?

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i think buttons per unit like

1- jump on hold when startint to waver
2- attack enemy within SLIDEBAR range if
A enemy is weaker and no antiunit
B enemy is weaker and/or antiunit
C at all cost
3- retreat when under fire SLIDEBAR distance

and so on

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
...and no antiunit...[/QUOTE]


What is an anti-unit? Can this be ANY unit? Or a specific TYPE of unit?

IE, your YA faces enemy YA. What other unit would constitute an anti-unit for your YA? Another YA? A ND? A HC? A Kensai? A Ninja?

What if its under fire from a gunny? Is the gunny an anti-unit even though its far away and has no intention of introducing itself to your YA?

Just curious...

[MagyarKhans Cham]

it means that u can set the command for the unit that it will attack any unit within the given range but not the antiunit, like the cav will NOT charge spears, even move back from it.

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
it means that u can set the command for the unit that it will attack any unit within the given range but not the antiunit, like the cav will NOT charge spears, even move back from it.[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't that mean that all your YA would never engage? After all, all units are their anti-unit... Might as well just rout them now... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

[TosaInu]

The YA will attack anything.

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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net