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Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-31-2004, 00:49
What is the name of the Hoplite sword? The one that was adapted after contact with the Iberian's falcata. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

BlackWatch McKenna
03-31-2004, 01:10
Hoplites used spears.

Maybe you are thinking of Romans?

Hakonarson
03-31-2004, 01:35
Kopis - I'm not aware that it was developed from the falcata - what info is there on that?

Crimson Castle
03-31-2004, 04:23
Well bugger - I picked up my copy of Osprey's Elite series - THE ANCIENT GREEKS - and couldn't find the Greek word for sword. But I found the greek names of the shield strap, the sword sheath, the clip for the sword sheath, a calvary spear etc..

The Greek Hoplites did use swords. The Spartans popularlized a sword short which resembled more like a dagger. I guess the aim was to knock down their opponents with the shield mass wall weight of the phanlanx and stab them while they were on the ground.

Rosacrux
03-31-2004, 08:14
xiphos (sometimes "zliphos" - but this is just bad pronunciation) is the one type - the straight, about 55-60 cm long blade, in use from the 9th century BC - an evolution of the Mycenean fasganon/xiphos/aor, really. Th other type is kopis- the curved, slightly S-shaped one. The xiphos design is the earliest and copis came into wide use in the time of the Persian wars, but was glorified later and especially during the 4th century, when the hippiki kopis (cavalry kopis) appeared and was used extensively, even by Alexander's heteroi & the Thessalian cavalry (as a secondary weapon, next to the hippiki sarissa). The Spartans, at least up to the late 4th century, haven't adopted the kopis and used extensively a rather short machera (like a large kitchen-knife, really, about 40-50 cm. long blade).

BTW Aymar, according to even Spanish sources, the adaptation of the kopis by the Iberian populations resulted to the falxata, not the other way around.

The kopis design might or might not be originated in the helladic area - we have several findings of similar desings in the central Europe (Celtic sites) and also in the near east. All those respond to the same timeframe (early 5th century BC)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-31-2004, 12:13
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Mar. 31 2004,01:14)]xiphos (sometimes "zliphos" - but this is just bad pronunciation) is the one type - the straight, about 55-60 cm long blade, in use from the 9th century BC - an evolution of the Mycenean fasganon/xiphos/aor, really. Th other type is kopis- the curved, slightly S-shaped one. The xiphos design is the earliest and copis came into wide use in the time of the Persian wars, but was glorified later and especially during the 4th century, when the hippiki kopis (cavalry kopis) appeared and was used extensively, even by Alexander's heteroi & the Thessalian cavalry (as a secondary weapon, next to the hippiki sarissa). The Spartans, at least up to the late 4th century, haven't adopted the kopis and used extensively a rather short machera (like a large kitchen-knife, really, about 40-50 cm. long blade).
Thanks, Rosacrux. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif



Quote[/b] ]BTW Aymar, according to even Spanish sources, the adaptation of the kopis by the Iberian populations resulted to the falxata, not the other way around.
Falcata. Some Spanish revisionists don't agree. I'm not included in their number though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif



Quote[/b] ]The kopis design might or might not be originated in the helladic area - we have several findings of similar desings in the central Europe (Celtic sites) and also in the near east. All those respond to the same timeframe (early 5th century BC)
I've found evidences of a slightly longer, but very similar sword, in India. Strange, isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Rosacrux
03-31-2004, 12:46
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Mar. 31 2004,05:13)]I've found evidences of a slightly longer, but very similar sword, in India. Strange, isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
Falcata, right.

India? I wouldn't be surprised, the one-edged, slightly curved sword with the the tight grip, ideal for slashing rather than anything else, seems a quite common idea and I wouldn't be surprised if it was evolved simultaneously at more than one places. Early Egyptian and Mycenean designs have also similarities with the later kopis.

But... there is something funny about this sword. It's full potential is not reached - since it's quite not good for thrusting - but from a height, so that's why it made an ideal cavalry weapon. I would expect it to be evolved for use with cavalry first, but I don't think that's what happened.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-31-2004, 15:06
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Mar. 31 2004,05:46)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Mar. 31 2004,05:13)]I've found evidences of a slightly longer, but very similar sword, in India. Strange, isn't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
Falcata, right.

India? I wouldn't be surprised, the one-edged, slightly curved sword with the the tight grip, ideal for slashing rather than anything else, seems a quite common idea and I wouldn't be surprised if it was evolved simultaneously at more than one places. Early Egyptian and Mycenean designs have also similarities with the later kopis.

Quote[/b] ]But... there is something funny about this sword. It's full potential is not reached - since it's quite not good for thrusting - but from a height, so that's why it made an ideal cavalry weapon. I would expect it to be evolved for use with cavalry first, but I don't think that's what happened.
Are you refering to the Kopis? Or the Falcata? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

In fact, The Falcata is capable of good thrusting attacks, although not at the level of a Gladius. IMHO, both the Kopis and the Falcata are very short swords, although longer and heavier than the Gladius. I agree that their weight distribution makes them specially effective in a downward slashing cut just like napoleonic era cavalry sabers, but they still seem too short for an effective cavalry weapon.

BlackWatch McKenna
03-31-2004, 17:57
fancy swords for purchase (http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/sword.htm)

Trax
03-31-2004, 18:35
Quote from the site:

Quote[/b] ]The Spartan soldiers relied heavily on their long spears .The spear could either be thrown, or used in hand combat. It was usually thrown before engaging the enemy with swords.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-31-2004, 19:04
Quote[/b] (BlackWatch McKenna @ Mar. 31 2004,10:57)]fancy swords for purchase (http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/sword.htm)
Good link for pictures, BlackWatch McKenna

Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-31-2004, 19:05
Quote[/b] (Trax @ Mar. 31 2004,11:35)]Quote from the site:

Quote[/b] ]The Spartan soldiers relied heavily on their long spears .The spear could either be thrown, or used in hand combat. It was usually thrown before engaging the enemy with swords.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
LOL What a bunch of crap... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

spmetla
03-31-2004, 23:13
Quote[/b] ]Quote (Trax @ Mar. 31 2004,11:35)
Quote from the site:
Quote
The Spartan soldiers relied heavily on their long spears .The spear could either be thrown, or used in hand combat. It was usually thrown before engaging the enemy with swords.



LOL What a bunch of crap...


Indeed..

Boulis
04-01-2004, 02:00
One more observation on this topic that has to do with etymology. Did the ancient Greeks also use a spathe? Or maybe spathe was another name for the xiphos?
Now before you all jump in, I know that the spatha was a Roman cavalry sword used circa 3rd century AD and I believe it was inspired by an earlier Celtic type, although I might be wrong there. However, the Latin word "spatha" is based on the Greek "spathe" which means "broad blade." The assumption therefore must be that the Greeks used the word spathe to refer to some sort of bladed weapon long before the Romans started to use the more famous spatha.
Finally, as Rosacrux I'm sure is aware of, modern Greek uses either the word spathe or xiphos alternately (without any rhyme or reason I can discern) to refer to any type of sword.

Hakonarson
04-01-2004, 02:04
Somewhere I've got some info on the "life history" of hte Spatha - i'm not sure whether it was Gallic in origin or not, but it was used well before teh 3rd century AD - IIRC it was in common cavalry use in the 2nd or 3rd century BC.

It is a thrusting sword that is perfectly capable of cutting also - so is quite unlike the archtypal gallic sowrd - which was only any use for a cut. By the 3rd century AD Roman infantry had adopted the spatha to replace the Gladius hispanicus.

Boulis
04-01-2004, 02:19
Interesting...Hakonarson does the history you have give any clues as to the spatha's origin? I am far from being an expert on swords but the etymological question is what drew my attention. After an admittedly cursory inspection, I've noticed that most of the sites that refer to the spatha on the internet concentrate on its incarnation as a Roman weapon. Yet the word's origins are Greek - that's the source of my confusion... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Hakonarson
04-04-2004, 22:52
No it doesn't sorry - it's jsut a sentence in a work that pretty much says what I said above - the Spatha was a "dual purpose" sword - capable of cutting or thrusting, was not derived from Gallic swords, and was later developed into the European longswords.

The book I got it out of is quite old now - "Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome", by P Barker, published by WRG about 1982.

Red Peasant
04-06-2004, 15:27
Quote[/b] (Boulis @ April 01 2004,00:19)]Interesting...Hakonarson does the history you have give any clues as to the spatha's origin? I am far from being an expert on swords but the etymological question is what drew my attention. After an admittedly cursory inspection, I've noticed that most of the sites that refer to the spatha on the internet concentrate on its incarnation as a Roman weapon. Yet the word's origins are Greek - that's the source of my confusion... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
According to my Oxford Dictionary of Classical Greek, the spatha ( 'her spather', sorry, no Greek characters) was both 'a flat blade used by weavers on the upright loom for striking the threads home so as to make the web close' and a 'broad sword'.

I remember a discussion in a Greek history lecture where it was mentioned that it was not known which was named for which.

Red Peasant
04-06-2004, 15:32
Useless though mildly interesting information: the English word 'spatula' is a derivation, via Latin.