Germany's Western defences early war

[discovery1]

I once heard that, in order to man its Poland offensive, Germany stripped it's Westerns borders of troops. This seems rather improbable. But the potential what ifs are so great that I must ask, is this true?

[Crimson Castle]

Hello there,

The short answer is yes, it is true that Hitler had sent most of Germany's fighting force to invade Poland in 1939.

I get various stats for the number of German troops in the Western Front in 1939. The number ranges from 25+ to 22 German divisions. But all sources agree that it was just a screening force. Most of the German fighting machine had been sent East to fight Poland, - especially virtually the whole Luffwaffe.

(In fact, Germany expected that her small Western defensive force would be overwhelmed by the Anglo-French 110 divisions. The problem for the Allies was that they were not prepared to attack Germany. (The French and English societies had turned away from the idea of making aggressive war in Europe during the interwar years.) The French Army of 1939 was a defensive force using WWI tactics. Remember the French had spent billions building the Maginot Line. They were expecting the Germans to attack first.)

Here are some sources -

http://snipurl.com/5f06
http://snipurl.com/5f0g

[Michiel de Ruyter]

I agree with what Crimson sais...

But why would that idea be so odd ? The Germans have a big (actually a few) in between them and the western allies. Also, they might have guessed?known that the allies were not ready to launch an attack on Germany the moment the Germans invaded Poland...

My assumtion is that the Germans expected the allies to invade at some point, at which the war with Poland should be almost over, as the Germans knew the Russians would invade as well. Which ment that the Germans had their rear secured, and could attack the Western Allies, which would have advanced somewhere between the border and the Rhine.

The thing is that the war in Poland went far better then even the Germans themselves ever expected, overall...

[71-hour Ahmed]

interesting, it is the reverse of 1st world war - then they threw troops west at first, before transferring them east (After Russia had invaded and advanced into germany).

I seem to vaguely recall also mention of Germany having her own fixed defences facing the maginot line (albeit much smaller obviously) so that would discourage attack.

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (Michiel de Ruyter @ Mar. 31 2004,07:31)]I agree with what Crimson sais...

But why would that idea be so odd ? The Germans have a big (actually a few) in between them and the western allies. Also, they might have guessed?known that the allies were not ready to launch an attack on Germany the moment the Germans invaded Poland...

My assumtion is that the Germans expected the allies to invade at some point, at which the war with Poland should be almost over, as the Germans knew the Russians would invade as well. Which ment that the Germans had their rear secured, and could attack the Western Allies, which would have advanced somewhere between the border and the Rhine.

The thing is that the war in Poland went far better then even the Germans themselves ever expected, overall...
Jepp, thats were Italy come in handy. The alies were fools not to stop germanys agression much soner. The germans could just take one bite at the time and no consequnce.

[Plantagenet]

Since there were only 6 Panzer Divisions when Germany invaded Poland, the Germans gambled that if they threw all 6 into Poland along with the bulk of their ground & air forces, it would fall quick enough to allow time to redeploy to the West. Otherwise, Poland might take months to conquer, which would give the French time to mount an attack. While this meant that only a screening force could be left in the West, the Germans calculated that the French army would need time to mobilize and deploy, and planned to knock out Poland before the French were ready.

The gamble was so successful that all 4 Light Divisions were upgraded to Panzer Divisions immediately after the fall of Poland. The Blitzkrieg had begun.

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (Plantagenet @ Mar. 31 2004,12:19)]Since there were only 6 Panzer Divisions when Germany invaded Poland, the Germans gambled that if they threw all The gamble was so successful that all 4 Light Divisions were upgraded to Panzer Divisions immediately after the fall of Poland. The Blitzkrieg had begun.
Yes, it is impressive. I love seeing Discovery Channel with programs with that stuf.

[discovery1]

Thanks all. I appreciate the help. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (discovery1 @ Mar. 31 2004,12:08)]Thanks all. I appreciate the help. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
It is all true, but Poland in 1939 was an easy target, just check the borders - the "armoured pincers" were easy to use, and Poland could not
survive attacked from all directions by stronger, better equiped, and mostly better commanded armies.
Still Poland fought longer than France, Belgium, Holland and British(in France) in 1940 and caused quite severe casualties - 280 aircrafts destroyed, 240 heavily demaged, and more than 1000 tanks destroyed or demaged when it comes to the Germans + some casualties in Red Army - but these were caused mostly by reserve, teenagers and the condition of roads in eastern Poland.

Generally the French army f*****d, wasting the best chance during the war.


Regards Hetman/Cegorach~:thumb:

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (71-hour Ahmed @ Mar. 31 2004,07:46)]I seem to vaguely recall also mention of Germany having her own fixed defences facing the maginot line (albeit much smaller obviously) so that would discourage attack.
The Siegfried Line IIRC. The lines are almost an early version of Mutual Assured Destruction.

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (discovery1 @ Mar. 31 2004,12:08)]
Two things to add.
First. One of the reasons why Poland was the first target was that Hitler was almost sure France and the UK will leave Poland alone - he was wrong, but still there was not a single serious attack in the western front in 1939.
Poland was the first target also because he new that Poland would attack as soon as he decides to invade France. Poland was more serious ally than France or the UK.


Second. Germans had 7 panzer divisions:

14th army ( sounthern attacking from Slovakia) had 2nd armoured and 4th light division in XXIInd corps.

10th army ( the strongest heading to Warsaw) 1st and 4th in XVIth corps, and 2nd and 3rd light divisions in the XVth corps + 1st light and 5th armoured divisions in other corps.

The 4th army ( attacking "the corridor") had 3rd and 10th armoured divisions.
Finally the 3rd army ( Eastern Prussia) had so called "Kempf" division.

Generally the "Kempf" and 10th divisions were weaker than an average division ( and were getting smaller especially after the Kempf division "charged" across a minefield on 2nd or 3rd September) , and the 3rd was stronger ( additional unit of tanks I don't remember how big - battalion or a whole regiment) than usually.

The light divisions were turned into armoured ones also because they didn't achieve much during the war whereas the "panzer ones" won the campaign.
For example the 4th fought at Mokra ( 1st Sept) where it was succesfully stopped by Polish Volhynia Cav. Brigade and lost several tanks (there was no ulhans charging tanks - this is pure propaganda and fiction), but later it defeated ( of course not alone )Polish "Prusy" army
and reached Warsaw on 8th september where after losing several tanks (Warsaw capitulated on 28th september)
was used to destroy polish armies "Poznan" and "Pomerania" which attacked left flank of the 8th army.


Your Obedient Servant Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Crimson Castle]

The author explains the French situation quite clearly here
http://snipurl.com/5f06

The problem was that France was ill-prepared for the modern fast paced fighting of ww2. The horrors of ww1 had convinced three generation of French leaders of the "futility" of the "rush and attack first" school.

[Plantagenet]

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ April 09 2004,03:34)]

Two things to add.
First. One of the reasons why Poland was the first target was that Hitler was almost sure France and the UK will leave Poland alone - he was wrong, but still there was not a single serious attack in the western front in 1939.
Poland was the first target also because he new that Poland would attack as soon as he decides to invade France. Poland was more serious ally than France or the UK.


Second. Germans had 7 panzer divisions:

14th army ( sounthern attacking from Slovakia) had 2nd armoured and 4th light division in XXIInd corps.

10th army ( the strongest heading to Warsaw) 1st and 4th in XVIth corps, and 2nd and 3rd light divisions in the XVth corps + 1st light and 5th armoured divisions in other corps.

The 4th army ( attacking "the corridor") had 3rd and 10th armoured divisions.
Finally the 3rd army ( Eastern Prussia) had so called "Kempf" division.

Generally the "Kempf" and 10th divisions were weaker than an average division ( and were getting smaller especially after the Kempf division "charged" across a minefield on 2nd or 3rd September) , and the 3rd was stronger ( additional unit of tanks I don't remember how big - battalion or a whole regiment) than usually.

The light divisions were turned into armoured ones also because they didn't achieve much during the war whereas the "panzer ones" won the campaign.
For example the 4th fought at Mokra ( 1st Sept) where it was succesfully stopped by Polish Volhynia Cav. Brigade and lost several tanks (there was no ulhans charging tanks - this is pure propaganda and fiction), but later it defeated ( of course not alone )Polish "Prusy" army
and reached Warsaw on 8th september where after losing several tanks (Warsaw capitulated on 28th september)
was used to destroy polish armies "Poznan" and "Pomerania" which attacked left flank of the 8th army.


Your Obedient Servant Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Good explanation. There was also the fact that after the Rhineland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, & Memelland, the last piece of pre-WWI Germany (or "Greater Germany" if we include Austria) to be reclaimed was that part ceded to Poland. It was the logical next step in his pre-war plans to regain those parts of Germany stolen by the Treaty of Versailles.

There were only 6 regular Panzer Divisions in Sept. '39: 1st, 2nd, & 3rd (Oct. '35), 4th & 5th (Nov. '38), and 10th (Apr. '39). Panzer "Division" Kempf (the "East Prussian Tank Unit") was an improvised unit, formed for the invasion of Poland, that combined one regular panzer regiment with some SS VT troops (which weren't even part of the Army), and only contained one Mot. Inf. Rgt. It was really just a reinforced brigade, not a division.

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (Plantagenet @ April 10 2004,14:02)]
Good explanation. There was also the fact that after the Rhineland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, & Memelland, the last piece of pre-WWI Germany (or "Greater Germany" if we include Austria) to be reclaimed was that part ceded to Poland. It was the logical next step in his pre-war plans to regain those parts of Germany stolen by the Treaty of Versailles.

Sorry,but most of Poland territory was ceded to Poland because it was mostly Polish ( population), historicaly it was a part of Poland before the partitions in late XVIIIth century.
Actually ONLY so called 'corridor' was given to Poland, the rest was included because of uprisings - in Wielkopolska (Greater Poland), and Polish Silesia ( 3 uprisings between 1919 and 1923). It is much more complicated, then You think.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Plantagenet]

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ April 14 2004,04:04)]
Quote[/b] (Plantagenet @ April 10 2004,14:02)]
Good explanation. There was also the fact that after the Rhineland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, & Memelland, the last piece of pre-WWI Germany (or "Greater Germany" if we include Austria) to be reclaimed was that part ceded to Poland. It was the logical next step in his pre-war plans to regain those parts of Germany stolen by the Treaty of Versailles.

Sorry,but most of Poland territory was ceded to Poland because it was mostly Polish ( population), historicaly it was a part of Poland before the partitions in late XVIIIth century.
Actually ONLY so called 'corridor' was given to Poland, the rest was included because of uprisings - in Wielkopolska (Greater Poland), and Polish Silesia ( 3 uprisings between 1919 and 1923). It is much more complicated, then You think.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
I'm sure it wasn't all that complicated to Hitler...or to any German who lived through WWI. I didn't mean to imply that Poland herself had "stolen" anything from Germany, but most if not all Germans alive in 1919-1939 viewed "West Prussia" (Polish Corridor) as a German province, rightly or wrongly.

Poland only got Upper Silesia due to Polish uprisings; while Poland had clearly lost the plebiscite to determine who got Silesia (meaning the majority of the population voted for Germany), the Poles did get a majority in Upper, which is why the Silesian Poles rose. Regardless, Lower Silesia remained with Germany. Posen is more clear-cut; Polish since the Middle Ages, Poles remained the majority even after Prussia annexed it.

[Hakonarson]

Wasn't the head of Abwhere, Admiral Canaris, anti-hitler?

IIRC reading somewhere that he overplayed the possibility of a French attack, thus ensuring more troops weer left on the Western Front than were actually needed.

He wa also responsible for keeping Spain out of the War - telling Franco that he should stay out at all costs - possibly Franco didn't need much persuasion, but his demands for joining hte war were quite outrageous and Hitler made some disparaging remarks after their meeting.

Canaris was strung up from a meat hook in late '444 I think, in the wake of the assasination plot against Hitler.