why can't i win this battle?!

[Navaros]

i'm at war with the French right now

the current battle is the following setup:

my units:
2 Units of Peasants
2 Units of Saharan Cavalry
4 Units Ghulam Bodyguards
1 Unit Abyssian Guards
4 Units Nubian Spearmen

Total men for me: 1005


enemy units:
2 Units Hobilars
1 Unit Feudal Man-at-Arms
1 Unit Mounted Sargeant
1 Unit Feudal Sargeants
3 Units Spearmen

Total men for enemy: 755

everytime i play this battle, i get owned. my question is: why? i thought spearmen beat cavalry? well, not in this battle. my spearmen ALWAYS lose to the Hobilars or Mounted Sargeants i do not understand why this is.

some one please tell me how i am supposed to WIN this battle, exactly. all my guys always rout about 2 minutes into the battle :(

[Gregoshi]

How do the generals compare (command stars)? How does the valour of the units compare? Can you describe more about how the battle typically goes? Terrain? Tactics?

[Jxrc]

Check if your commander does not give a moral penalty, that could explain how quickly your guys start running.

Check if there is not a huge difference between the command stat of your commander and those of his opponents. More than a two stars difference could be a big disadvantage.

If things are even as far as commander are concerned, you should have no major problem winning that battle since you have more units than your opponent.

This game is a bit like scissor beats paper, paper beats stone etc.

Forget about your two peasants units for the moments, they are useless in a head to head clash and can only be used for charges from the flanks or from behind.

What I would do is:

Use 3 of the Nubian spearmen units to check the 3 opposing spearmen and the feudal sergeants. Even though your Nubian might loose after a while they should hold their ground a while.

Use the Abyssinian guard against the FMMA. They have an anti-armour bonus and should do ok.

Keep you cavalry close behind your infantry and wait until the IA tries to outflank you spears. As soon as one unit of holibars or mounted sergeants get engaged with your infantry, flank it with an unit of Ghulam. If another IA cavalry tries to do the same to your engaged cavalry unit, flank it with one of yours (you can afford that tactic since you have more cavalry than the IA).

Once all the IA cavalry is engaged, take whatever un-engaged cavalry you got (1 ghulam and 2 Saharan) and your 2 peasants, go round the melee and attack the most threatening IA units from behind (probably the feudal sergeants or the FMMA). Once you have routed one of those units, the spearmen should follow them quite quickly given their poor moral.


Note that there are many more methods (splitting the enemy troops to beat them piecemeal) and that the difficulty to realise the above scheme could increase if you are the attacker and the enemy simply waits on the high ground ...

Hope it helps ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[HopAlongBunny]

Good advice.

One more thing to check is the valour of the opposing units. It is displayed during battle by the number of little flags the unit is carrying. Those hobilars and sergeants may be very high valour; will chew through v0 or v1 spears like they aren't even there.

Good Luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Agreed. Looks like a serious unit morale problem.

Now this is important: Who is the defender? Are they invading you or you invading them?

[Navaros]

i notice that all of my infantry always suck

my spearmen suck. my Urban Militia suck. my Almohad Urban Militia suck. everything i ever build sucks. they enemy AI always owns them by default, no matter what they are fighting.

how am i supposed to make my units not suck, exactly?

[octavian]

great generals + practice, try out MP, it will teach you how to beat anything the AI can throw at you, also, try autocalc, if you win, there may be a serious tactical problem, maybe post a replay of the battle + screenies of the pre-battle (if you have VI) valour also has a huge impact on the game as well, try out a search on the org in general, there are plenty of disscusions going on about valour.

[Maedhros]

It may be that your style of play does not suit the Egyptians. They rely on light mobile forces.

These are ideal in the heat of Egypt. But may not be ideal elsewhere. I'm left with the impression your play style would either require huge numbers of throwaway troops, (think Soviet military doctrine), or heavy hitters.

If the generals deployed are equal, and I suspect they are not, you will still be at a disadvantage. Try playing as the Seljuk Turks, or one of the European powers.

I think you will find they better match your style. Also, never expect everything to go like clockwork. Even with a computer comparing numbers you still have a random factor thrown in.

The enemies flanks are your friend. Say hello frequently. Control the terrain. Egyptian armies are mobile, use that. Wear them down with endless petty maneuvers. Draw them away from the high ground or into exposing their flanks.


Oh, and lose the peasants. They are only good for adding mass to a garrison so the locals don't rebel, wearing out the enemy, and taking arrows for the team. (high marks for this ability)

[Bhruic]

Not sure what your definition of suck is. Most of the units you describe have low base morale, so if by suck you mean rout easily, then I'd have to agree. But Almohad Urban Militia most certainly do not suck by any other standards, especially in Early. I've been using them pretty extensively in my Almohad game, and they have been doing quite well.

The trick with low morale units like that is to make sure they don't get hit with battlefield morale penalties. One unit routing can chain-react your entire army and cause it to rout. So make sure that you take care while fighting. Don't let your units get flanked, don't charge off headlessly with your general, etc. Ideally, try and find generals with bonuses to morale. One general with Brave Beyond Belief is enough to ensure your units fight to the last man.

Another important thing to do is build the various religious buildings. The Mosque is always the first building I go for, once I get a keep. Giving your units +1 (or +2 for Ribat) will help keep them on the field.

Bh

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Navaros @ April 03 2004,04:28)]i notice that all of my infantry always suck

my spearmen suck. my Urban Militia suck. my Almohad Urban Militia suck. everything i ever build sucks. they enemy AI always owns them by default, no matter what they are fighting.

how am i supposed to make my units not suck, exactly?
really m8, you probably have very poor generals. that's all. otherwise they can't suck.

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Maedhros @ April 02 2004,21:17)]It may be that your style of play does not suit the Egyptians. They rely on light mobile forces.

These are ideal in the heat of Egypt. But may not be ideal elsewhere. I'm left with the impression your play style would either require huge numbers of throwaway troops, (think Soviet military doctrine), or heavy hitters.

If the generals deployed are equal, and I suspect they are not, you will still be at a disadvantage. Try playing as the Seljuk Turks, or one of the European powers.

I think you will find they better match your style. Also, never expect everything to go like clockwork. Even with a computer comparing numbers you still have a random factor thrown in.

The enemies flanks are your friend. Say hello frequently. Control the terrain. Egyptian armies are mobile, use that. Wear them down with endless petty maneuvers. Draw them away from the high ground or into exposing their flanks.


Oh, and lose the peasants. They are only good for adding mass to a garrison so the locals don't rebel, wearing out the enemy, and taking arrows for the team. (high marks for this ability)
you are right - i WANT heavy hitters. why can't i build them? i need some serious heavy hitters instead of the weak crap i have now.

i have noticed that i can almost always manually win a battle that if i'd win that same battle by using auto-calc - and i can even win some of the time when i lose with auto-calc. btw i would always LOSE that battle mentioned in my original post if i did it with auto-calc.

you say to use light mobile forces to draw the enemy out of formation etc.


the other day i did just that. i was using a unit of Saharan Cavalry to draw the enemy out of their formations. i did this to about 3 enemy units. not once was my Saharan Cavalry engaged. all of a sudden i see them routing for no reason at all (no fighting had even began at this point) and i hover my cursor over them only to see (Disenheartened by constant retreat)

WTF? i was NOT retreating. i was using STRATEGY and micro-management to win the battle. that's total BS that my unit routed for that reason. is there any way to TURN OFF BS settings like that in the Options or regkeys or something? i really wanted to set a new world discus record with my Total War discs when that happened

[Apocalyp$e]

you gotta post a replay or something so we can all analize your tactics...
Isn't the modern age great? I mean, Atilla or genghis couldn't practice their stratagy on a comp all day, then consult with other generals across the world...

[Navaros]

some of you have mentioned to post a replay and i'd LOVE to do that except i don't have any websites etc. on which to post them therefore, if i want to post a replay and have a saved replay file - how do i get it to you guys so you can watch it?

[Accounting Troll]

Once you've got one of the enemy units out of position and chasing your cavalry, pin the enemy unit with a frontal attack by a frontal attack with one of your infantry units, and use your cavalry to launch simultaneous attacks on the flanks and rear.

As the Egyptian faction you can build mounted archers and naptha throwers. Making good use of them is perhaps the only way you can beat the heavily armoured Western forces short of outnumbering them in every battle. Even Swiss Armoured Pikemen will rout when I use Greek Fire on them.

[Yushal]

Quote[/b] (Navaros @ April 02 2004,05:29)]everytime i play this battle, i get owned. my question is: why? i thought spearmen beat cavalry? well, not in this battle. my spearmen ALWAYS lose to the Hobilars or Mounted Sargeants i do not understand why this is.
First, spearmen dont beat cavalry, or anything else really, excepting maybe peasants and such. Spearmen defend well against cavalry, rather. You can also read that as dont defend well against anything other than cavalry, lol.

Im going to envision this scenario: You march your attacking army up to his hilled position in something like the 3-line attack formation. When you arrive, he charges down the hill and routs all your men?

Well, however it happens, all other things being equal, I think like this: Your four Ghulams should be able to take the 2 Hobilars. Your 2 Saharan cav can take the 1 Mounted Sargeants.

The rest of your troops compare poorly against the Christian infantry in a head-to-head battle, so you need to coordinate things. I dont know what is Abbyssinian Guards, so Im just going to pretend its a figment of the imagination. The AUM are very good, however they will need to flank.

I would split the cav and draw off his cav with them, and destroy the opposing cav when they get seperated. If he chases instead with the infantry, so much the better, you can encircle and destroy those. So, he chases your one unit of cav out and you get behind it and charge. The thing to remember is to back them off before he can turn against them, then charge with the original unit. I have noticed that the best results are obtained in the initial contact, and prolonged melee only causes you casualty. So, you make contact and kill a few then retreat before he can react and hold your unit, then you hit him from the other side when he turns.

By now he has reinforcements coming to help his wounded cav and you use your Ghulams against them in a like manner.

You complete this on both sides with your 8 cavalry before you close the distance with your infantry. Or you may attack his reinforcement/relief effort with your entire force of infantry while your 4 off-wing cav corps harass and distract his main force. Just do not let him catch your cavalry with numerically superior units or with his infantry and all should be well.

Even if you only manage to deplete his cav to half strength before they limp off, they will not only be tired out, but his entire army will have morale penalties due to the discrepancy in casualties.

I dont know exactly how it works, but the constant retreats thing does suck so you can only do that a few times with each unit before its a bad idea. It is realistic, tho. If I was this horseman, I would be just following orders and not seeing the big picture of tactical maneuver like my general does and I would be saying WTF Im outta here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif .

At any rate, I think the key to this engagement is somehow neutralizing his cavalry, even at the expense of having your own neutralized as well. Your infantry is all very weak if caught out by a speedy assault. It need to be husbanded into position. You want your AUMs and peasants to obtain flanking positions and since you have but a few line units, you cant afford to support them. They will tear up anything he has from a flank.

If he assaults your AUMs while you march them round his position, send the accompanying peasants to soak his charge and then flank that battle with the AUm units, but like I stress, dont let them get mauled helping out the peasants if thats likely. Thats what peasants are for. Slave labor, cannon fodder, and rebellion.

OK, I am done preaching. Just remember that I dont know what I am talking about and everything will be fine.

[JAG]

Nav - the game takes time to master, just give it time and you'll own 'em all up. The advice others give are very handy and try and use 'em. Also if you browse the forum you will find much more help. GL.

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (Navaros @ April 04 2004,05:14)]the other day i did just that. i was using a unit of Saharan Cavalry to draw the enemy out of their formations. i did this to about 3 enemy units. not once was my Saharan Cavalry engaged. all of a sudden i see them routing for no reason at all (no fighting had even began at this point) and i hover my cursor over them only to see (Disenheartened by constant retreat)
This happens a lot with non-elite units if you run them around: hobilars, mounted sergeants, etc. One way to avoid it is to use path-finding and shift-click to withdraw them to a series of way-points; you can even set up so that they run away and then run back to the fray. This seems to be better than continuously reclicking.

[Bhruic]

Ah, that explains what happened to my Armenian Heavy Cav. I'd been using them to taunt the enemy into charging my lines. I'd pulled a single spear unit away, and had the Cav running parallel to my archers line so that I could mow down the spearmen. Suddenly the cav bolts. Couldn't figure out what the problem was (the rest of the enemy was quite far away). Must have been the constant retreat thing. Couldn't manage to rally the cav either, had to let them flee.

Bh