The Pikepush

[Oleander Ardens]

Always on the research of new tactic I came across a rather innovative one. Playing as Switzerland I thought: Why should I always use my dear SP and SAp as a pure defensive wall?

It is a supreme defensive wall, which will usually stop any frontal attacks in cooperation with defending missletroops etc.

In order to defend, most people use 4-5 rows, to get a long defensive wall. But as I tried to get maximum concentrated killing power I group them in especially deep formations, up to eight rows, often with two units pointing with their small front at the same enemy unit.

Their flanks were protected by SP or SAP in conventional manner, often in oblique formation(the interior flank of the supporting SP more advanced) in order to prevent flanking..

Imagine it like /II with a smaller angle...

Weapons upgrades work very well with that tactic as it increases greatly the killing speed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


It is surely not as effective as the usual way (tie up and flank) but a interesting, often surprisingly effective way, especially in confined spaces where you get more killing power than your enemy in that specific zone...


BTW I was inspired by a famous ancient battle between spearmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Lord Ovaat]

Welcome, OLEANDER ARDENS, and yes, the massed infantry rush has been around forever. Extremely effective under the right conditions and timing. Not that effective against missle troops, though. You'll suffer heavier casualties by providing a massed target almost impossible to miss. The French at Agincourt and Waterloo would have testified to that. (Interesting; French at Agincourt and Waterloo. One would have thought they would have learned something in 300+ years?)

[Oleander Ardens]

Thanks for the welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


I know that massed infantry pushes have been used for a long while by all MTW-player. But the usual rule is to use special shocktroops like Gallowglasses, Upgraded woodsman, Polearms, high attack Swords and Axes etc..

My post was more about the specific use of very densly massed use of Pikeman, integrated in a concept to achieve maximum gain.
Focus on weapon upgrades, dense formation of 6-8 according to the type/quality of the enemy troop and the targeting of a single enemy unit by a two/tree units with a frontal attack. Special protection for the flankes.

Perhaps it is good to add that the supporting units, which protect the flanks should be the typical hold-the-line type; Good spear or SAP, while the charging pikes can be also SP or P...

And that dense formations are an ideal target for missileunits is well known to me - from personal experience http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Lord Ovaat]

Hope I didn't mislead you, OLEANDER, but I was referring to real life. The game closely mimics real life situations, which is why it's such a good game. 'Course you have to allow for such intangibles in the game as upgrades, valour, etc. Hope you enjoy your ride with us. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[SwordsMaster]

Nobody would say NO to some SAP with armor and weapon upgrades...I use them to attack to charge frontally the egyptian horse archers in the Sinai province http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif lol

Seriously, i do use them to attack, specially by the end of the game, when i get most of the armies of pike-musket (arbalest) type with some cav and CMAA support.

Actually i just thought of something im gonna try... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

Thanks for to clear things up Lord Ovaat, I thought you were speaking in MTW terms http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

In real live the vulnerability of massed troops does also strongly depends on the type of missletroops and the type of the attacked unit.

Pikemen proved often to be surprisingly resistent against arrows, when armored to some degree. The pikes did offer a good deal of protection, especially when moved. We had a nice discussion on the .com about it.

But If they had zero armo and were not supported by own missiletroops, things could go very bas - ask the Scots http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif


BTW: And how many did you kill SwordsMaster? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

About the pike-musket-arbelast army: It is always nice to use massed formations of SAP or SP to counterattack.
The enemy advances under heavy arbelast fire. When he is really close I usually let a musket unit fire a full salvo into the advancing unit, with two - tree SP charging at the single unit, while the other Pikes hold the line.

Incredible how fast the enemy often breaks, even if they are elite (JHI, FeudalKnights)by multiple SAP's squares.
The advantage is that you can break even centrally through a well ordered line..

[PseRamesses]

The pike wall is very effective, as the greeks dicovered with hoplites, and I often use them both in defence and offence. When defending I usually put 10 of them as a wall around my 8 archer units, replace the archers when ammo is finished with either new archers or pikes. I then form my pikes into a single or double line, depends on how much cav I´m facing, and heard the enemies off the map. When the enemies reinforcements enters the map they face a huge wall with pikes and just runs off to mama. Works every time

[Nowake]

Pikemen proved often to be surprisingly resistent against arrows, when armored to some degree. The pikes did offer a good deal of protection, especially when moved. We had a nice discussion on the .com about it.

Yes, I remember the thread.

In Medieval I don't think the spear wall is of much use, and because of one reason: they kill rather slowly. This means that tire more, can't catch many prisoniers, so they can't make decisive battles unless, of course, you encircle the enemy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I prefer light infantry mixed with cav, which will envelop and not necesarily kill, but make them run. After that, I kill them personally if needed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[SwordsMaster]

Quote[/b] ]BTW: And how many did you kill SwordsMaster?



Kill? was i supposed to kill them? oh, damn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

I use massed light infantry at the beginning of the game.Or sometimes for short campaigns, cause they tend to die quite fast... Of course since its pointless taking your Gothic Knights into desert it depends on the situation you face.

[Oleander Ardens]

Yes Pikemen are not the fastest killers, that`s why you need the weapon upgrades http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I was playing around thinking about the phalangites in RTW, could be helpful to some tactical thinking in advance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I am too a great fan of light shock infantry intermixed with fast skirmishers and light cavalry. It is a great, challeging combo, but in the hand of a master a very deadly on...


Quote[/b] ]Of course since its pointless taking your Gothic Knights into desert

...argh Could this be the cause of my losses in the desert? ...And I always though my Knights enjoyed the trip in warmer regions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[meravelha]

Oleander,

If you are going to use the (historically effective) Swiss attack in oblique echelon then be aware that they added in two small but vital components to that attack:

1) a small screen of crossbows skirmishing out front of the forward 'keil' (pike block) to soak up the incoming missiles and, well, skirmish; occasionally some mounted crossbows as well / instead.

2) one two smallish units of halberdiers covering the open flank to ward of cavalry and soak off overlaps to the forward keil.

The usual attack was made in oblique order as you describe, with THREE very large keil (several MTW units each).

The beauty of the arrangement is that if it is flanked it can turn 90 degrees and still be formed up for attack.
The other beauty of this baby is that it just keeps rolling - nothing can stop it (on easy ground anyway).

[gaijinalways]

The big problem with both pikemen (and halbs) is that they are generally slow. So I far it difficult to have them strolling anywhere without getting too tired. I remember one of the custom battles where I had some pikemen and the AI did too, I ran his pikemen around silly with some horsearchers and later routed them with spearmen and peasants

Meanwhile, my pikemen waited and advanced slowly and helped to take out some charging pikemen and knights with some help from some peasnats and spearmen.

One of the other custom battles I had is where I again baited some pikemen and ran them around while showering them with alb and crossbow fire. Amazingly, they still routed my horsemen when they caught them though they were vastly depleted and didn:t affect the battle's outcome