Cyrus the Great vs Alexander the Great

[The Wizard]

Ok

We have, in this corner, Cyrus the Great, the Achaemenid, King of Kings, conqueror of many an organised culture, defeater of the richest man on the earth, the first humanist on this ball of hardened mud. The founder of one of the greatest empires the world has ever seen, laying the base of a great realm that was abolished three kings later.

And in the opposite corner, Alexander III of Macedon, the great strategist, conqueror of the greatest empire of its age, has defeated armies many times the size of his own. Any foe he met was defeated, through brilliant tactics and advanced technology. His empire perished with him however, thanks to the envy of the Greeks that filled the power vacuum he left. Biggest ego the world has probably seen.

Both men took backward, unimportant peoples (less for Alexander) and conquered the world with them. Both men faced great enemies, both men prevailed. But now:

Who is the Greatest?

Personally, Cyrus. In less time than Alexander, he conquered an empire almost as large, and layed a very solid base for an empire that was to last over two centuries. He fought organised and powerful foes, but skillfully vanquished them all. Even the impossibly rich Croesus and his great cavalry. He created the first human rights rules, and kept his empire together with ease.

At the same time, Alexander faced an empire which had been politically divided for many, many years ever since Xerxes abolished Cyrus' teachings of the clans. He had a much greater advantage in technology over the Persians than Cyrus had over his foes, and the armies Darius III threw at him were made up totally of levies. Even the Greek-named 'Immortals' were no longer what they had been. What he was facing was ripe for slaughter, an army that was too scared of the imposing phalanx to do anything at all. Nothing when compared to the Persian armies that conquered the world under Cyrus the Great, Cambyses II and Darius the Great.



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 03 2004,11:46)]OkWho is the Greatest?

Personally, Cyrus. In less time than Alexander, he conquered an empire almost as large, and layed a very solid base for an empire that was to last over two centuries. He fought organised and powerful foes, but skillfully vanquished them all. Even the impossibly rich Croesus and his great cavalry. He created the first human rights rules, and kept his empire together with ease.

At the same time, Alexander faced an empire which had been politically divided for many, many years ever since Xerxes abolished Cyrus' teachings of the clans. He had a much greater advantage in technology over the Persians than Cyrus had over his foes, and the armies Darius III threw at him were made up totally of levies. Even the Greek-named 'Immortals' were no longer what they had been. What he was facing was ripe for slaughter, an army that was too scared of the imposing phalanx to do anything at all. Nothing when compared to the Persian armies that conquered the world under Cyrus the Great, Cambyses II and Darius the Great.



~Wiz
Well, I think you're right. It is far more difficult to conquer, build and organize a lasting Empire, than just to conquer it. But Alexander died to young and hadn't time to organize it...

[nokhor]

one of my favorite alexander legends explains that alexander was a descendent of cyrus. according to this persian legend, xerxes of the battle of salamis fame, while he was overrunning northern greece, got some concubines from his vassal states, including macedonia. olympias, the future mother of alexander, was given to xerxes, but he sent her back after one night, due to her bad breath, and phillip later married her.

neat little legend, helps explain how alexander could overthrow the acheamenid line [he was one himself].

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Too bad that story is completelly false... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif

[Hurin_Rules]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 03 2004,11:46)]Personally, Cyrus. In less time than Alexander, he conquered an empire almost as large, and layed a very solid base for an empire that was to last over two centuries.
Less time than Alexander?

Alexander only began his invasion of Persia in 334; If you want, you could include his command of Philip's Cavalry at Chaeronea 4 years before. Even still, his whole career would then only last about 15 years.

As far as I know, Cyrus was militarily active from at least 549 to 529; a minimum of 20 years.

Alexander conquered the know world in ten years; one can only imagine what he might have done had he had 5 or 10 more.

[The Wizard]

Note: I am slightly pro-Persian. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Alexander was not an organiser. Other than appointing Greeks and Macedonians to rule the conquered satrapies, nothing else happened. Cyrus organised his kingdom, laying the base that Darius took, molded, and gave shape and made into a powerful empire.

Alexander was militarily active for twenty years. It took him a long time to conquer the empire of Cyrus. Cyrus conquered less, but in roughly the same time. What he conquered was the (then) important part: Media, Susiana, Lydia, Phrygia and Cappadocia, and the more easternly regions, such as Bactria. Then he went east and vanquished the Skythian tribes. Cyrus was militarily active for twenty years indeed; he died at the head of an axe. But by the time that happened he had already conquered many lands, from the Jaxartes to the Levant and from the Ionian coast to the Kabul valley.

Let's review. What did Alexander really accomplish? What did he do, other than conquer a hedonistic, decadent empire that was just waiting to be conquered by a willing and able man? What did he do, other than pulling off great military feats, one of which was get to Persepolis and destroy it?
Needless to say, he also laid the base for a long time of strife between his satraps.

What did Cyrus really accomplish? He conquered different, large, rich and well-organised states, least of which Babel. He unified many peoples and kept the extreme borders of his nation secure. He made the first human rights charter in history. He turned a small, unknown hill tribe from Persis into the leaders of the most powerful empire in the world. He laid the base for Darius to take and turn into a well-ordered and -oiled state. He also killed many, but spared those who deserved to be spared. He also pulled off great military feats.

There are many similarities between Cyrus and Alexander, but the difference comes where Cyrus goes further than Alexander.

Read the Cyropaedica of Xenophon (http://www.iranchamber.com/history/xenophon/cyropaedia_xenophon_book1.php)



~Wiz

[Hurin_Rules]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 05 2004,05:48)]Alexander was militarily active for twenty years.
I don't dispute the scope of Cyrus' accomplishments, and I might even agree with you over the whole issue, but you should get your facts straight.

Alexander militarily active for 20 years? He only lived to the age of 33. Are you saying he was militarily active at the age of 13? How would you define 'militarily active' then?

Cyrus had more time than Alexander, period.

[Voigtkampf]

Well, regardless of who had more time or how much space they conquered, I go for Alexander, not because it's obviously that most people know more of him than Cyrus the Virus, but because Alexander the Great was a great warrior aside of being a great strategist, and he has always fought among his troops where it got "thick". There are far too few good generals in history that have actually went to the head of their troops and fought the enemy, and Alexander was just like that; he lived for war

[The Wizard]

And Cyrus did not? Cyrus was a warrior king pur sang: as I said, he died at the head of an axe. He fought at the head of his cavalry as well, in the Persian way. He was always there, riding around, checking the battlefield for problems. There is no question that Cyrus is Alexander's equal and probably would have vanquished him with his army.

Then there is what makes Cyrus stand out from Alexander: governing his empire. All Alexander did was plot one conquest after another, while letting his satraps handle his newly conquered regions. While Alexander was dying he was planning a new conquest, that of Arabia for crying out loud

Cyrus, on the other hand, was, if he was not forced to campaign (sometimes he was, after he had ended his conquering after reaching the Jaxartes river in central Asia), was busy governing, with regulating his realm and the incessant plotting in the harem, with keeping the nobles in check, with world economy. All Alexander thought about was where to go next.

Cyrus was indeed militarily active for twenty years, but then again, he was militarily active for all his rule. He needed to be, especially with the Ionian cities trying to get out from under the 'yolk' of his rule and the constant threat of Skythian tribes overwhelming the fortified border towns along the Jaxartes. It took him about ten years to conquer the important parts of his realm. Helped by the fact that the surrendering of the last Median king gave him most of the east, but hey, Alexander also gained the east of Persia by vanquishing Darius III at Gaugamela.



~Wiz

[nokhor]

actually alexander was a very able administrator as well as a gifted conqueror. as alexander overran the near east, he was able to capitalize on growing dissafection among the subject populations of the persian empire, as well as use local talent in the adminstration of his realm. this was one of the sore points between him and his countrymen, that he was sharing the spoils of war with those he had conquered. he also, depending on the situation, often split up military, economic, and political power within a satrapy, so no governor could become too strong to challenge him.

i think the best indicator of his government, was that after his sudden death, there were no large scale native revolts. the persians, egyptians, etc. all were pretty complacent and the fighting that did occur took place among his immediate subordinates, who were able to use these various non-greek regions as power bases for their incessant wars, which would have been impossible if they had also had to contend with keeping the natives in check.

[Voigtkampf]

Well, Cyrus died on the battlefield, Alexander stayed alive; that says a lot, doesn’t it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

But seriously, I don’t know much about Cyrus, nor whether he was an able soldier or not, so I will leave the battlefield to greater experts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[The Wizard]

Bump, for conversations sake. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 05 2004,10:48)]Note: I am slightly pro-Persian. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

~Wiz
No Sh$t. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

You have a valid proposition about Cyrus, as he does tend to get overlooked because he was not European.

Makes more sense than some of the other stuff you've claimed for the Persians, anyway. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The Wizard]

Hmmm? What do you mean?



~Wiz

[bighairyman]

Quote[/b] ]Well, Cyrus died on the battlefield, Alexander stayed alive; that says a lot, doesn’t it?

well according to "what if"(a book ), Alexander almost got his head chopped off by a Persian Axeman during his first battle with the Persians, at granchis. A Cavalryman charge and killed him a split second before Alexander's head got chopped off.

There were numerous times, when Alexander's lives was in danger during his many campaigns.

anyway Alexander had a lot of advantages that Cyprus didn't have. Cyrus came from a small Persian or some other huge empire at the area's Vassal, he manage to defeat it, then march on against the Babylonian Empire, which was the big kid of the block at the time.