Question

[BalkanTourist]

Hi guys
This forum really helps. I recently got stuck playing the Italians in Early for over a month not being able to win a TD game. I read a post here suggesting meeting the Mongol Khan with a greeting delegation of assasins. I decided to try it and it worked Even better, I didn't even lose I single assasin (had over 50) That really helped my game.
Now I am playing the Polish in Early. Heard a lot of good things about them, but to my opinion they are kind of poor as a roster (getting Moldavia early helped since those Avar nobles are excelent guys). So first I took Pomerania, Volhynia, Moldavia and Wallahia. I tried to build up a bit. I received Scotland from the English (their King died in a battle - poor thing). That was nice since I received a 7 star general along with the land. I also took Saxony (The HRE had a nasty civil war). I am not planning on messing with the west for a while for now. I'd concentrate to the East, where there are a lot of unclaimed lands. I have no problem when meeting the steppe people in the open. My 300 Avar nobles took on a 800 army of Khazar heavies and Alan Mercenaries and completely destroyed them (only 86 dead on my part). But when attacking over a bridge I always loose. Any help?

[Lord Ovaat]

Get some heavies (spear, sword, halbardier, etc., depending on what you're up against primarily) to hold your end of the bridge. Then, missles, missles, missles. I prefer bow/crossbow. They're mobile. If the enemy stays out of range, advance one unit of heavies over the bridge. As soon as you see the enemy advancing to meet them, halt, then withdraw to your side if necessary. That will draw those people into range. Problem is, that will also draw in Mongol bows which have pretty good range, maybe better than your's. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Aight I aint the best but I can help
1. Always outnuber them try for 2:1 or 3:1+
2. Always be technologically advance (Feudal+Chivalric Men-at-Arms, Foot Knights, Sergents, are all good)
3. TONS of archers and small seight weaposn (ballistae or catapults)
4. Always wait behind the bridge, don't try to cross it unless you have to.
5, No Mounted Knights near the bridge, they can blow your stratagy, keep them at a safe distance
6.If possible, move a few (1 or 2) units across another brige on the battlefeild and flank the enemy scum
7.Use Knights for charging when the enemy is trying to cross
8. All archers aim to the bridge, and use spearmen to hold off their advanceing infatry
9.Use Catapults and Ballistae to kill their general. Then aim at their most powerful units
10. NEVER GIVE UP I can't tell you this enough. Yesterday I was fighting the French (not on a bridge, but a good war story). They had a full stack of Men At Arms, Mounted Sergents, Archers, and Urban Militia, over 800 Troops in all
I had 1 man at arms, 1 spearman, 1 Swiss Halberdier, 52 Pikemen, and 36 Lancers, and 2 archers. So I decided to Fight. I sent my 1 man units to fight, and held my archers in reserve. So I lost the 3 men. Then I had my Pikes and Lancers Charge. I beat the shit out of those froggies, lost less than a hundred men, killed 90% of them.
-Capo

[nick_maxell]

depending how the bridge is defended and assuming there is only one on the map there are a couple of tactics you can use:

high valor+morale heavy infantry - send them against spears with ranged unit support - cycle them when fatigue drops to 2 bars.
If no spears same with heavy cav although the cycling is a problem with them.

I once tried with cheap units like UM/MS and two catapults - when the enemy was getting disorganized a heavy cav charge made them rout so I could get the bulk over.

when the enemy starts away from the bridge I try to get some cav over first and hold him off until I can get renforcements over - this is a very costly thing and sometimes doesn t work. If the opponent has high morale units brace yourself for a 4:1 or higher ratio in losses.

one tip: var guards or halberts defending: withdraw or make them come over to your side and doubleteam on them. If possible avoid bridges and attack from another province because you will always loose a lot of troops.

With two bridges different story as the dumb AI seems to defend only one if you attack with some troops but march the rest of your army over the other one - again fast units first as the AI is not THAT dumb http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

hope that helps

nick

[katank]

position some catapults to force them away from the bridgehead and prevent em from forming good plug.

then, charge over with ample cav preferably with some good archers covering.

alternatively, try mongol tactic of using HA to lure them across where you wait with ample unit such as m@a on both sides and hit em quick and fast once they come thorough.

rout them for good morale penalty to melt away bridge plug if possible. killing general would only speed the process.

[ichi]

I use a slightly different tactic to get over a bridge in SP. There are lots of tricks and styles- using archers and arty, luring the enemy onto your side - and they work in various situations. But when the enemy has a strong force and is trying to hold at the bridge, try this.

If the enemy has arbs or xbows, the slow rate of fire means they will last for a long time, so I just go ahead (realizing that I will take missile casualties). If the enemy has archers, I start by placing a low quality unit within range and let them absorb arrows. When the archers run out of ammo I send 3 units across at a time: a spear (could be a unit of Spearmen, Chiv Sergs, Pikes), a sword unit (could be FMAA, CMAA, FFK), and a unit of javelins - as Hungary you can get access to Slav Javs. I use almost no archers and very few cav on a bridge attack. Take a high valor General and units with armor upgrades.

Set up your army as close to the bridge as possible while staying just out of missile fire. If the enemy has arty put your troops on loose form (be sure to place them in close formation before sending them to fight). You get a morlae boost having units as close as possible to the fighting.

There will be plenty of missile fire on the bridge - this kills enemy soldiers as well as yours. Try to get your troops mixed in with theirs to increase the enemy friendly fire factor. If I have archers or arty in my troop mix I use 'em, but withdraw them as soon as they run out of ammo. I see the AI (and it happens in MP also) send in the archers to fight when they run out of ammo. I think this is a mistake unless desperately outnumbered.

Send the first group of 3 across - try to fight on the bridge, not on the other side where your troops can get flanked. With the spears in very deep formation and set on Hold Pos/Hold Form, the swords set on Engage-at-Will, and the Javelins set on Hold Pos/Hold Form behind the spears, fight until the swords get down to 2 fatigue bars. Then send in a second group of 3 (1 spear, 1 sword, 1 javelin). When they arrive at the fighting pull the first group out. Don't pull the first group back until your fresh troops are there ready to fight. Pull the first group back and let em rest. When they have recovered a little send em back in. You lose men when you pull out, but it is worth it if you do it correctly (ie when replacements are there to take their place).

Aim the javelins at the best armored troops.

Wear down the enemy - don't chase routers across the bridge unless/until you are sure you can get all of your guys across. Fighting on the far side of the bridge, with your troops stuck on the bridge and the enemy surrounding your guys is death.

Keep rotating troops through the battle - your fresh troops will kill more than they would if tired. When units get down to a very few men then I leave them in until they rout. This has a negative effect on the other units, but sometimes if you try to pull a very depleted unit it will rout when it turns due to the flank/rear morale penalty.

Don't send any cav until the end - the final cav charge can break the enemy and then chase, but if you send cav across against fresh spears and heavy missile fire you will die.

I posted this screenie before but it shows the javs in action so I link it here also. The fresh troops are just arriving and I'm getting ready to pull the troops in front.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/ichijavbridge1.jpg

One thing that I have always wondered - does the slope of the bridge on the end work like slope on a hillside?

ichi

[katank]

nice job this technique is really good

I've never though of using javs in attack, only in defense.

anyone tried naptha?

maybe send some peasants or cheapo spears and then naptha the suckers defending?

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 05 2004,20:58)]nice job this technique is really good

I've never though of using javs in attack, only in defense.

anyone tried naptha?

maybe send some peasants or cheapo spears and then naptha the suckers defending?
Katank,
I tried naptha throwers as the Byz against the Mong in Kiev. It worked fine but, you know, they have a tendency to blow themselves up, he he Anyway, I used 6 of them on attack at will mode. Holding the bridgehead was some byz.inf that really got creamed by their friends but it worked.

Ichi,
I´m gonna try your javelin-strategy, thanks

[katank]

I know they work in defense.

I'm just wondering if they can be used in offense

ie. the trash plug enough to occupy the enemy plug so my napthas can make everything go bye bye.

I forsee instant rout on my spear/peasants from friendly fire alone but will it also rout the enemy?

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 05 2004,20:58)]anyone tried naptha?

maybe send some peasants or cheapo spears and then naptha the suckers defending?
I used this technique in STW/MI with the Thunder Bombers. The cheap Korean spearmen go first followed by the TBs. The effect is quite impressive. If the TBs get themselves and the spearmen, then send in the next group. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Lord Ovaat]

Haven't had the opportunity to try javelins on a bridge, but I have tried to relieve units. Ugly, ugly. They get butchered trying to withdraw. Same happens in open field, but it seems intensified on a bridge. Never turn your back on the enemy certainly seems appropriate in the experiences I've had. even when I've had other units in for support. How do you manage the relief part, [/B]ICHI[B]? I've lost as much as 40-50 percent trying to untangle. Wonder if my other involved units are hindering withdraw?

[TinCow]

(Assuming this is a one brige battle) The best results I have gotten have always been with using suicide squads and hordes of missile units. I send across one or two units that I don't mind being completely decimated. The key is to use units that can hold a whole - usually armored spears or feudal sergents in early. This is certainly an expensive suicide squad, but it is required for my tactic. As soon as I get in position at the bridge, but out of enemy bowshot I rush my suicide squads across. Their objective is to draw the enemy infantry to the mouth of the bridge, where they can bit hit by my missile fire (usually they will camp a bit away from it). Once they are engaged, usually but a much greater force, I target all my missile units on the opposing infantry. Between their missile and my missiles, it is carnage, but the simple fact that they have more men crammed into that area than I do means they rack of more casualties. Even after my suicide squads break, the enemy will chase them across the bridge, giving plenty more time for even more archer-induced bloodshed. Wash-rinse-repeat until the enemy infantry is weak enough for you to break them with a MAA or cavalry charge.

I usually come away from such battles with 1:1 casualty ratio, which is MUCH higher than most other battles I fight (unless I completely botch one), but is still completely acceptable. As far as I am aware... if you have only one bridge to attack and the enemy has a balanced force (i.e. not totally missile or infantry) you're going to be taking some serious casualties no matter how you look at it.

[katank]

that's pretty good tincow.

I use mercs to do that ie. merc italian inf. they hold for quite a while and if you only hire em for that turn, they actually cost far less. mercs are half build price and double support IIRC so if used for 1 turn to get decimated, you actually come out ahead using mercs.

[Accounting Troll]

If I want to launch an attack across a bridge, I try to make sure that my attacking army is outnumbered 2-3 to one

In a battle, when the AI is attacked by a far smaller army, it tends to attack rather than hold a defensive position. In this case, it will charge across the bridge at me, so even though I am the attacker, I can get to fight a standard bridge defence, inflicting terrible casualties on the AI.

Of course, this tactic would never work in an MP game.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ April 05 2004,23:30)]Haven't had the opportunity to try javelins on a bridge, but I have tried to relieve units. Ugly, ugly. They get butchered trying to withdraw. Same happens in open field, but it seems intensified on a bridge. Never turn your back on the enemy certainly seems appropriate in the experiences I've had. even when I've had other units in for support. How do you manage the relief part, [/B]ICHI[B]? I've lost as much as 40-50 percent trying to untangle. Wonder if my other involved units are hindering withdraw?
Put the reinforcements in very deep formation - a 60-man unit maybe 5 wide by 12 deep - and order them to attack the front enemy unit, then order the unit to be replaced back out.

If you order the unit out before the reinforcements get there, then pulling out can be death. If you wait until the unit is down to a few men, and exhausted, then routing is certain and the unit prolly won't rally. That's why it is important to replace as soon as they get to two bars, usually when they get to 40-50% numbers.

I always start by pulling out the units farthest back, this reduces the traffic jam. The tendency is to try to pull out the unit on the point, but as you state, sometimes the point unit either won't withdraw (prolly cause it keeps getting tangled up with the enemy or its too crowded on the bridge) or if they do turn to leave they get slaughtered.

Once the tired units toward the back of the fight have left and the fresh units are on scene, I push the fresh units ahead (tell them to fight an enemy unit a little back in the pack) and then pull out the last of the tired guys.

ichi

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ April 06 2004,18:57)]Put the reinforcements in very deep formation - a 60-man unit maybe 5 wide by 12 deep - and order them to attack the front enemy unit, then order the unit to be replaced back out.
Columns works fine too and lasts long.

[Lacker]

ah, bridge warfare,
in my mind there is nothing more interesting

I have nothing to add to the strategy discussed as most of my ideas have been posted, but I would like to toss out this little quip.

When Mel Gibson was filming Braveheart in Scotland he filmed portions of his battles on the actual fields they took place. One such battle incorporated a bridge (Falkirk?) but the cameras etc. couldn't get a good angle on it to film. When asked by a local why they wern't filming the battle on the bridge like it actually took place, one of the members of the production team said: because the river get's in the way. The local apparently replied: aye, that's what the brittish found.

cute http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

A

[nick_maxell]

Quote[/b] (Lacker @ April 09 2004,19:17)]ah, bridge warfare,
in my mind there is nothing more interesting

I have nothing to add to the strategy discussed as most of my ideas have been posted, but I would like to toss out this little quip.

When Mel Gibson was filming Braveheart in Scotland he filmed portions of his battles on the actual fields they took place. One such battle incorporated a bridge (Falkirk?) but the cameras etc. couldn't get a good angle on it to film. When asked by a local why they wern't filming the battle on the bridge like it actually took place, one of the members of the production team said: because the river get's in the way. The local apparently replied: aye, that's what the brittish found.

cute http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

A
I guess they were talking about the battle of Stirling bridge where Wallace won - he lost the one at Falkirk and there was no bridge involved. Not sure if the was a bridge at Bannockburn - was more swamp there and you only see the start of it in the film. At Stirling bridge Wallace used one of the tactics described in this thread - he let one half of the army come over (Cressinghams half) and butchered them - the other half (Surreys) could not help and had to retreat.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

nick

[gaijinalways]

Accounting Troll,

What level were you playing on? On expert level, I have never seen this happen, that is the AI defening and attacking your bridge position when he has you outnumbered. He'll sit there and let you try to cross (unlesss you can sucker him into coming near the bridge or on it, but it can be nearly impossible)

[Chimpyang]

Well i ahve a different strategy....
here it is...I send my worst troops over first (spearmen and the such) and as soon as they engage i start to draw the enemy back across the brigde by telling my troops to go bavck to my side and after 1 or 2 secs i tell them to attack again..this culminates in the enemy rushing you to get at the lowly spearmen..and you finish off any troops that followed you spearmen across...repeat ad finitum until they're too weak to hold the brigde for too long against arrow fire and MAA.
I'm not too syure if it work in higher skill levls but it works on normal.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[makkyo]

It would help if you're numerically superior. but I tend to have to win battles over bridges with the same amount of men. If the enemy has a decent ammount of missle units you're in for a lot of casualties... so avoid that... If they seem to be lakin archers you can send your heavy inf first to form a bridgehead and send cavs/ light inf on the edges to see if you can flank the enemy. Bring your archers close to the bridge so when the enemy comes to push you back you can peper them w/ arrows. The enemy should try to withdraw in which case the battle is yours. Most of the enemy will be killed trying to flee... you may recieve a realatively large # of dead bodies but you won the battle right?

[Accounting Troll]

Quote[/b] (gaijinalways @ April 10 2004,13:18)]Accounting Troll,

What level were you playing on? On expert level, I have never seen this happen, that is the AI defening and attacking your bridge position when he has you outnumbered. He'll sit there and let you try to cross (unlesss you can sucker him into coming near the bridge or on it, but it can be nearly impossible)
I've managed this several times on Expert level with both vanilla M:TW and the latest version of Medmod.

If the AI thinks it can easily beat my attacking army, it very rarely sits back and defends, and it never seems to account for the difficulties of assalting a bridge.

I think it helps if both armies have similar quality troops and the generals are of similar ability.

Nick_Maxell, Bannockburn was basically a swamp which suited the more lightly armoured Scottish. There wasn't sa bridge, so the English had to improvise one with planks of wood and furniture Also Edward II developed the innovative tactic of putting his archers at the very back, so they couldn't take part in the battle until it was too late.

[phyrrus]

ok done with all strategy u guys use ..so chivalric..
just rush your troop (cavalry the best) if at the start of the battle toward enemy on the other side of the bridge. they will have to do some formation to attck you, so get your army across one by one express then form fast. The enemy will attack you or retreat to form up. At least you gain some ground on the other side loh.
Aiyah..why so hard. dont be too gentleman playing bridge war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . just cross the damn bridge as fast as you can. If engage on the other side of enemy then no problem. you got more space to attack , better than let your army bottle neck on the bridge and get slaughtered. Think think man.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (Czar Ivan Asen II @ April 05 2004,16:26)]But when attacking over a bridge I always lose. Any help?
Here's my strategy: turn after turn, catapults.
I discovered this trying to dislodge a 4-stack Almohad army stuck in Aragon, surrounded by my French troops (early/expert). Invasion from any province but Valencia means going up into the mountains, which is something I always try to avoid. Valencia into Aragon is a single bridge.
I had about 8 catapult units and some mixed infantry. The pre-battle screen allows you to place your artillery, and you usually get a small rise from which to fire on the bridge. Keep the rest of your units just outside missile range. The enemy won't come over the bridge, but will stay within catapult range. Fire away. Your catapults will go up in valour quickly. When they've finished their ammo, withdraw them. Then withdraw the rest of your troops. Come back the next year, and so on, until they're worn down and your catapults have 4-5 valour. At that point you can use them to take out enemy generals, guaranteed not to miss.
I don't know if this qualifies as cheesy or not. Since I discovered this I started to love attacking across bridges.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (WorkNeglecter @ April 13 2004,09:18)]I don't know if this qualifies as cheesy or not. Since I discovered this I started to love attacking across bridges.
I would rather call it sneaky... and very smart. Thanks for the tip

[katank]

have you gotten your catapults rushed by cav?

did your general get any bad vices or did you need to use throw away general?

anyhow, good tip.

[Doug-Thompson]

Valor and morale is what really counts in a bridge battle, IMO. It's a shoving match, and the side that breaks first loses.

==============

I'm going to join the chorus of praise for javelins on bridge battles. Good post, ichi.

Arrows, however can be used very effectively, especially when you're faced with a typical Crusade rabble of unarmored troops. Javelins should be reserved for armored troops. Arrows are good enough for the rest.
Melee troops back by javelins and then further supported by archers is a three-way grinder.

========

When you're opposed by a bunch of militia and other marginal troops, remember that the AI likes to charge you to get a bonus.

So I send a good, high-valor unit over the bridge, and halt them when the opposing troops charge. The AI times the charge to hit your troops right as they are trying to deploy on the other side of the bridge. If you halt while you're still on the bridge, the enemy keeps charging. They're committed.

This accomplishes two things. First, it avoids all danger of getting flanked, which is the only way for lousy troops to beat your good ones. Second, it draws them that much farther into arrow range from your archers on the opposite bank.

Eventually, the AI will send in some good armored troops to keep its soft ones from routing. That's when the javelins hit.

[lancer63]

Gotta try that artillery training technique. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif
Gonna turn Valencia into my imperial artillery training province. I'll send my chicken and doodo generals over there. Thanks for the tip pal. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[katank]

arty training? that's a new one.

the training when the unit was created was inadequate, so we'll give em some real world experience http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 13 2004,10:45)]have you gotten your catapults rushed by cav?

did your general get any bad vices or did you need to use throw away general?
Invading Aragon from Valencia it seems you can count on the enemy not charging. Invading Cordoba from Valencia the strategy has to be slightly modified, since there are two bridges and the terrain is less favorable. You have to keep the catapults further back and come with more infanty. If you place your catapults up front with no coverage they will effectively get charged. I had to play this battle six times before getting it right.

No bad vices for withdrawal unless the general routs or your withdrawing troops get chewed up by a cavalry charge.

[Ulair]

Quote[/b] (WorkNeglecter @ April 13 2004,15:18)]I don't know if this qualifies as cheesy or not. Since I discovered this I started to love attacking across bridges.

Doesn't sound cheesy to me - I'll remember that one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[squippy]

Sounds fair enough to me, if the enemy is willing to sit there under the barrage, let them.

One tip I have not seen mentioned that I use frequently is to prepare for crossing the bridge adequately. Units ordered to cross bridges first approach the bridge, form up in column, then cross over. However, units cannot occupy the same space as another unit and so they can end up pushing and shoving and dancing about rather than getting on with it.

Thus, if attacking a bridge I will decide what units are going to fight the bridgehead, and those which cross for the coup de gras - usually the cav. These units I select and place in column (group formation 9) back from the bridge but in line with it (often along the road). Then once my bridgehead troops push through, I select the column group and click once on the other side, and they all file neatly over in good order.

I favour axe-troops for the fighting on the bridge, Halberdiers if they are available as their armour helps them absorb the inevitable missile fire. The other advantage is that if/when they rout off, the elite troops are not affected.

[thomonkey]

the way i think is the best way to do it is this.
i build that strongest guys i can get.(heavily armored, good attack) in STW these were the naginatas. You send these guys across the bridge and make sure they create some room. then when they are fighting the enemy i rush the rest of my army across the bridge. This makes it so that it becomes a normal battle instead of a bridge battle. from there you just fight like normal.

[mfberg]

Replayed a bridge battle from the turn before and attacked with 200 fewer troops. Instead of sitting around, waiting for my artillery to kill his katatanks and drunken general and allowing my steppe heavies to massacre his 5 trez archers units he swarms over the the bridge scaring my poor little no star general to death.

Somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1 seemed to be the point where AI liked his advantage.

mfberg