Wow! What a ransom!

[PseRamesses]

Winning the battle of Khazar after over 4 hrs of game play I captured 4.946 soldiers, 48 nobles and the Khan himself thus rendering me a nice 62.163 florins in ransom.
I´ve never experienced more than the "standard" 10k in ransoming back a king - anyone else? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-greedy.gif

[SwordsMaster]

just for the Khan you get 11.000, i tried once.

What i dont like of the game, is when you autocalc the battle, and capture the king and then he gets ransomed without asking you.What if you didnt want him to be ransomed? I think is something they should fix for the future....

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ April 07 2004,05:38)]just for the Khan you get 11.000, i tried once.

What i dont like of the game, is when you autocalc the battle, and capture the king and then he gets ransomed without asking you.What if you didnt want him to be ransomed? I think is something they should fix for the future....
Oh, so the rest of 51k was for all the soldiers?

Since I never auto-calc I haven´t experienced that but I´m glad you told me since I´d have been pretty pissed off by it. Thanks

[SwordsMaster]

I think is about 1000 ransom for each nobleman,im not too sure about that, it could be 500 for the noble...not sure... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[TinCow]

That is a crazy ransom. How much cash does the Horde start out with to shell out that much of a stack?

I remember the first 'big' ransom I got in the second game I ever played. Captured the Egyptian Sultan in battle and ended up with a 12K ransom. I didn't know anything at that time so my economy was in the crapper... I almost spat my drink all over the screen when I saw what I had gotten. I thought that much cash would last me the rest of the whole campaign at the time.

[Bhruic]

Well, the nice thing about ransoms is that you don't actually have to have the money to pay them. You can put yourself into debt. It's a good way to effectively cripple the AI (they get so far in debt they'll never be able to buy anything). It's why the Turkish "capture the Egyptian Sultan" strategy is so effective at taking out the Egyptians - not only do you get 10K+ florins, but they won't be able to buy and more units, allowing you to walk all over them.

Bh

[TinCow]

Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ April 07 2004,08:17)]Well, the nice thing about ransoms is that you don't actually have to have the money to pay them. You can put yourself into debt. It's a good way to effectively cripple the AI (they get so far in debt they'll never be able to buy anything). It's why the Turkish "capture the Egyptian Sultan" strategy is so effective at taking out the Egyptians - not only do you get 10K+ florins, but they won't be able to buy and more units, allowing you to walk all over them.

Bh
Makes sense... but then why would the enemy ever refuse a ransom of large numbers of its very high quality units? I've seen it let 1500+ men from good units be executed when those men would have made a significant difference in its ability to defend itself. I had always assumed this was only because it couldn't afford to buy them back.

[Bhruic]

I'm not entirely sure on that front myself. It's possible that you can't ransom your troops back if you already have a negative balance sheet. I know, for example, that when I fought the Byzantine, early in the war they would ransom their troops back, but later on, they stopped.

Or, it could simply be that the AI is programmed to not ransom its troops back if its low on cash. It will only violate that rule to get its Emperor/King/Sultan/etc back.

Bh

[katank]

that is so true. they often refuse later on, even for good generals like 6*+.

however, in a Turkish game, I managed to capture the eggy sultan 3 times and his princes six times (a single prince captured twice counts as two etc.) so it was a mega windfall.

furthermore, went on to capture Byz emperor twice and they always ransomed them back.

both these factions must have been so outta cash it's not funny.

but it was really sweet for me though. all the stars must have been aligned properly that time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[VikingHorde]

Wooow, now thats a ransom

[oblivious maximus]

about 15k was the most i ever got.

[Lord Ovaat]

I've gotten 10-15,000, but, man You hit the jackpot

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (TinCow @ April 07 2004,08:07)]That is a crazy ransom. How much cash does the Horde start out with to shell out that much of a stack?
I´ve experianced that they have around 60.000 fl when entering the game. It shure costs a lot to support 8-40.000 troops. I think it´s better that they stay home instead ;)

[Vlad The Impaler]

my best ransoms are as turks :
about 40k for the byzantine emperor in High Era
about 35k for the mongol khan in Early

[Doug-Thompson]

Is there any type of unit that is less likey to kill a king and more likely to capture him, or are all units the same in that respect?

[SwordsMaster]

I can tell you for sure that the archers are not that unit...

[son of spam]

neither are xbows, halbs, or arbalests http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katank]

halbs? I dunno about that.

I captured the khan once with my halb. sure he was about to dice him and get mad valour but decided mad money is better http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ April 07 2004,13:48)]I can tell you for sure that the archers are not that unit...
I know that was a joke, but what if the archers are in melee mode? They just about can't kill him then.

[SwordsMaster]

Quote[/b] ] know that was a joke, but what if the archers are in melee mode? They just about can't kill him then

They will get slaughtered brutally, its against kings and Khans youre using them....

[Bhruic]

That depends if you are using the term "archers" in the generic or specific sense. Ie, whether or not you are refering to the specific unit "archers", or just the general class of "foot units that shoot arrows". Some high valor Trebizond Archers or Ottoman Infantry would have a decent chance of doing some damage (although they'd really only do well in a flank/rear charge). And if you had some good valor Janissary Infantry, you could probably take them on individually.

Of course, all of this analysis rather ruins the original joke, but hey, someone had to, right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Bh

[Divine Wind]

Quote[/b] (son of spam @ April 07 2004,19:59)]neither are xbows, halbs, or arbalests http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Ive had arbs kill kings and khans before...

Just took a few hundred though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[SwordsMaster]

Quote[/b] ]Of course, all of this analysis rather ruins the original joke, but hey, someone had to, right?


and it had to be you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Sorry m8, it was too easy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Of course archers would get slaughtered by a full bodyguard unit. However, if the king's unit is decimated by other units and the king alone is trying to flee, and there's a unit of archers that could at least slow him down ....

You get the picture.

I'd guess that disciplined or elite units would be less likely to kill somebody who could get them a ransom, but does anybody really know?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

57640. That was the most I got against the Mongols. Early, Small Unit Size... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

[The_678]

Just think of this. Gold armour and weaponed trebs/ottoman/jannisary/nizari, with a 7* general and full religious upgrades. I think he could capture a bodyguard unit.

*edit* and wow thats one big ransom. Sure must have helped you out.

[JAG]

Blimey - that is some ransom.

[Ranges]

About capturing units....

I have noticed that many more enemies get captured when they're running away.

So i suppose that the best way to capture a king / heir would be to stack morale penalties on top of them.

This would mean a setup like this, i guess;
1) 0 valor handgunners / arquebusiers fire one salvo
2) a 0 valor (crossbow like siege weapon, forgot the name) fires one salvo
3) light or medium cav on flank and rear attacks
4) a good spear unit in front to block em
5) some nifty trick to make the rest of his army chain-rout :)

Of course, these are ideal circumstances.

Capturing an heir should be easier than capturing a king since an heir doesnt have to be general (and hence is easier to take down, and easier to panic if you kill the general)

that's all i can think of so far...

As for my best ransom.. Well, i've never really tried for it, i guess the best would be something like 15k or so..

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (The_678 @ April 07 2004,22:28)]*edit* and wow thats one big ransom. Sure must have helped you out.
It shure did. Everyone who has played Russians know the problem of getting thoose florins roling in. I used it all on merchants, ships and farm upgrades to 60-80%.

[katank]

well mine's not huge for 1 time payoff but in frequency is great.

In campaign yesterday as early Turks, I managed to sack the byz emperor no less than 4 times each time 13k payoff

BTW, he's on his 3 islands now with no navy.

I can probably invade his island twice to get 26k more before leaving him stranded in 1 island and serving as captive trading partner.

[hrvojej]

Any unit that could easily kill him in melee is a good unit to capture him when he's running away. Of course, you have to get him to run away first, and then be able to catch him once he starts to flee. But in general, armor piercers do a good job if positioned so that they intercept him on his flight route. Either that or fast cavalry to catch him gefore he goes off the map.

[Duke of York]

im wondering when it comes to seeing what unit can capture a king and heirs, im wondering if CA put some historical reference into the system, so where there is something like where other kings and princes are more likely to capture a king than peasants like in history where nobles where more willing to surrender to peers of the similar rank rather than of lower rank? just a thought

[katank]

I doubt it.

In game terms that's true though as RKs and other noble troops can catch them and hit them better than non noble troops. This is purely from stats though.

What you said would be a nice touch. yep, enemy princes would likely not want to surrender to my lowly but extremely fast steppe cav but then again, not as if they had a choice in the first place. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[PseRamesses]

He, he The stupid mongols re-appeared in Trebizond and Armenia. when the Byz went into civil war and since I held Georgia I couldn´t resist the temptation to fill my coffers yet again.
Captured the Khan in Treb and gained 39.718 fl. Then Killed him in Armenia. I wonder when a decendant will be back to fill my coffers a third time?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-behead.gif

[alman9898]

I rarely ever ransom anyone. I guess I'm just that blood-thirsty. The best I got was some 10k.

[katank]

well I rarely do so either except if there's a king or prince in which case greed over rides blood lust.

anyhow, even if not royalty, nobles could still cost a lot and fund your development early on.

[Bhruic]

Well, after fighting off the Mongol invasion, I got a nice ransom of 50,232. I guess the 7hrs of playing paid off. :) Of course, I already had 300+K, so I didn't really need it, but it was nice to get anyway.

Bh

[Kommodus]

The largest ransom I ever received amounted to more than 70,000 florins http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif It happened in a similar situation to the one you described.

In my second-ever MTW campaign I chose Turks/Early/Expert, and the empire was doing rather well when the Mongol threat became imminent. The Russians were strong, holding Khazar and all the east-Asian lands north of it. I was hoping the Mongols would not show up in Georgia, and I would be able to be at peace with them. Nevertheless, to play it safe I gathered a large army of somewhere between 2,500 and 3,000 men there. When 1231 rolled around, the Mongols showed up in Khazar, Volga-Bulgaria, and... Armenia

Of their 20,000-strong invasion force, 5,000 of them were in Armenia. The army I had prepared for the defense of Georgia immediately moved south to head them off. The mountainous, forested terrain of Armenia turned out to be ideal for defending against cavalry, and I anchored the defense with a large number of Saracen infantry on a high, forested mountainside, with no flanks exposed. The first Mongol wave, composed of mostly heavy cavalry and Mongol warriors, was beaten back without much trouble. Their reinforcements were mostly horse archers, however, and I stood no chance of catching those nimble fighters with my infantry. On the other hand, they had no chance of doing significant damage to my men, as we were sheltered by the trees. So, I simply hit control-T and waited for time to run out; I think the whole battle took less than an hour.

Thus, almost the entire 5,000-man Mongol army was captured, and the Khan paid over 70,000 to ransom it Somewhat less surprising was the fact that after the battle, we were not at war with the Horde, even though we shared the Khazar border. They never attacked us again; in fact, they remained strangely passive for the rest of the game. They fought with Russia for a while but never conquered it; once they held Muscovy they moved most of their remaining forces there, and never moved them. They're still there to this day

[katank]

that's the worst part of the horde. they are never too aggressive even though they are set to BARBARIAN_RAIDER, they never raid.

they sit in Khazar and idiotically launch attacks upon Kiev only to have their forces shattered against massed archery.

If they were smart and moved in other directions, they could easily achieve a giant pincer upon Kiev etc.

gimme that army and I'll show them how to carve out an empire

[Ragss]

I dont take prisoners...ever...Nothing like watching the prisoner counter tick up to 2000+ then clicking the button mmmmmm mmmmm good hahahahhahaaAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHA

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 12 2004,13:04)]that's the worst part of the horde. they are never too aggressive even though they are set to BARBARIAN_RAIDER, they never raid.

they sit in Khazar and idiotically launch attacks upon Kiev only to have their forces shattered against massed archery.

If they were smart and moved in other directions, they could easily achieve a giant pincer upon Kiev etc.

gimme that army and I'll show them how to carve out an empire
Anyone ever changed the faction behaviour attribute from "brabarian raider" to something else? Would be cool if the Horde´s behaviour DID change. I know one of their "objective is to take Kiev, amongst other provs, but just launching assault after assault over the Kievan bridge doesn´t prtray them as cunning as they where, it´s plain stupidity.

[Durruti]

The giant ransom thing happened to me too. I believe I captured the French king.

While it was a fun moment - the game is (for all intensive purposes) over. You can buy anything you want & do almost anything you want for the remainder of the game.

It raises the question; is there too easy access to $wealth in MTW?

I erased & began a new game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[katank]

yeah, in my early turk campaign, by 1170 I have 1.3 million in the bank and citadels everywhere.

I splurge like crazy but can't spend it all.

ransoms make the economy kick up soo much.

Russians and Polish though, don't get much wealth.

[Bhruic]

If you build the 'boats along all the shores' trading system, yes, money becomes too easy to get. Personally, I think for my next game, I'm going to increase the farming output of all provinces by 25%, and decrease the value of trade items to 25%. More money early, less money later. Should help the AI out, as it never builds a competent trade system.

Bh

[katank]

that's true.

however, some mods like medmod and kekvitmod actually has the AI building real trade systems and getting rich.

they don't spend those florins wisely but still, at least they aren't dead broke any more. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 17 2004,18:15)]that's true.

however, some mods like medmod and kekvitmod actually has the AI building real trade systems and getting rich.

they don't spend those florins wisely but still, at least they aren't dead broke any more. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I wonder how they do that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ April 08 2004,01:32)]I'd guess that disciplined or elite units would be less likely to kill somebody who could get them a ransom, but does anybody really know?
You have to think of it like the programmers would. How would they determine the chance of being captured? They would simply derive it from the change of being killed. The type of capturer or captured doesn't matter for the kill chance, so neither would it for the capture chance.

That is not the definitive answer you looking for, but it is the best you will get unless one of the developers would share their knowledge with us.

[-Amon-]

-Amon- sayz:

ok guyssee ransom



(* playing as turks,expert difficulty)

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Ransom.jpg

[Daveybaby]

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ May 08 2004,06:24)]
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ April 08 2004,01:32)]I'd guess that disciplined or elite units would be less likely to kill somebody who could get them a ransom, but does anybody really know?
You have to think of it like the programmers would. How would they determine the chance of being captured? They would simply derive it from the change of being killed. The type of capturer or captured doesn't matter for the kill chance, so neither would it for the capture chance.

That is not the definitive answer you looking for, but it is the best you will get unless one of the developers would share their knowledge with us.

I'd always assumed that if a unit is taken down while its still fighting then it gets killed (like, 99% of the time) and if its taken down while running away it gets captured (unless its hit by a missile). Thats not gospel by any means but it seems to match up pretty consistently with observed behaviour.

So probably the key to capturing a king/general is to rout him while surrounded (so that he cannot escape).


@amon Wow Looks like the drinks are on you

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Daveybaby @ May 10 2004,07:24)]I'd always assumed that if a unit is taken down while its still fighting then it gets killed (like, 99% of the time) and if its taken down while running away it gets captured (unless its hit by a missile). Thats not gospel by any means but it seems to match up pretty consistently with observed behaviour.
That makes a lot of sense, actually. That would explain why very high valor generals rarely get captured. They always fight to the death.

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ April 07 2004,05:38)]just for the Khan you get 11.000, i tried once.

What i dont like of the game, is when you autocalc the battle, and capture the king and then he gets ransomed without asking you.What if you didnt want him to be ransomed? I think is something they should fix for the future....
This is why it's important to either attack a castle personally or let the beseiged starve. If you autocalc, the King will always be ransomed.

Which sucks when you're trying to eliminate a faction.

[LordKhaine]

I managed to get 18K for a relatively small army the other week. The army lost a battle and had no province to flee to, so I captured them all (Including the almohead leader). What's amusing is that I spent all 18K in a single turn. Filled England and parts of France with castles and citadels :)

Sometimes it's worth sending out an army with the sole intention of capturing a factions leader, it's a great way to get cash.