Iraq reminds me of Total War [Archive]

Navaros

04-14-2004, 02:43

that thought had crossed my mind. most of the rebellions are by hardcore Muslims who don't appreciate having Iraq turned into just another clone of the USA

perhaps if the population was converted, this would be different although my gut instinct tells me that you can't convert hardcore Muslim believers

tho i am still curious as to how things would have worked out if the USA did send in a bunch of conversion agents like in Total War.

PanzerJaeger

04-14-2004, 05:38

Wat the muslum extremists dont realize is Iraq can be as prosperous and fun as america...but they can keep their religion and values Capitolism doesnt equate to religious beliefs, Muslum, Christian, or Bhudist. In fact, theyd have alot more money to fund their terror schools or watever if they got on board the capitolist express. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

(I know that was horribly generalized, and didnt take into account alot of factors.. but its just a thought.)

Navaros

04-14-2004, 06:11

i don't think the Muslims in Iraq will be allowed to keep their beliefs.

i think the USA will impose it's will upon Iraq's constitution and that will result in the inablility for Iraq to be a Muslim state

if i was a Muslim in Iraq in that situation, i might rebel too

Leo

04-14-2004, 08:49

That depends on what you think a muslim state is.
If it's having the sharia and locking your women away then you are quite right and it's a good thing that you are.
If it's believing in allah, do your prayers, donate to the poor, go to mekka, don't drink alcohol, don't eat pork... there are many muslims in western democracy doing that.

I think that the current struggle in Iraq has nothing to do with religion but is really a power-struggle. Sure the iraqi opposition leaders use religious arguments ans some of the peasants may believe in them, but it's, like always, about money and power.

The_Emperor

04-14-2004, 08:57

If Iraq rebelling is like Total War, then Afghanistan must have a Faction re-emergence on its hands

PseRamesses

04-14-2004, 10:36

What really scares me is that if USA can´t contain theese rebellions that she´s faced with a situation worse than Vietnam. Atleast the Vietnamese didn´t have fundamentalists and suicide bombers and yet they managed to kick USA out. That´s why USA now need the UN otherwise the situation can´t be controlled.

Lord Ovaat

04-14-2004, 15:11

This is probably a better thread for the TAVERN, but since we're already in it, what the heck. I made a statement not too long ago that MTW does reflect real life in many ways--that's why we find it so interesting. Some folks were apalled by the statement. OK. I still think it's true. The current situation in Iraq, however, is far worse than Vietnam ever was. In Nam, you only had two basic factions--pro or ant-communist. There are numerous cults and factions at work in Iraq, and each has a very personal agenda. Some are fighting to regain the totalitarian power they recently lost; some for specific Muslem beliefs. The vast majority are simply trying to stay out of harms way.

Is the US trying to create a puppet? No. But the democracy the US is trying to initiate will NEVER be accepted by the various fanatic groups who will have things their way or die trying. The type of restricted religious environment the fanatics insist on can't exist in a free society--and they are well aware of that. The sad part is, none of the extremist groups will allow any of the others to get control. They are all right. And at the bottom of the sewer lies the true reason for the turmoil in Iraq--and Norther Ireland. Economics and power. He who controls the society, controls its economy. Does anyone really believe the Crusades were any different?

And, all of the factions know that NO Western Society can fight a protracted war. As long as they keep the body bags in the evening news, they're winning. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

BrianBoru

04-14-2004, 15:24

maybe it is time for the pop to ask for another crusade? its been a while but ya never know it could work. The french, the english, the spanish, the danes, everyone will help and then he'll give everyone 1000 euros http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Sun Tzui

04-14-2004, 16:27

Appoint a Gov with lot's of Dread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

JAG

04-14-2004, 16:57

Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ April 14 2004,15:11)]Is the US trying to create a puppet? No.
I have to say I think you are very naive if you think the US is not trying its up most to put a very US friendly Iraq govt into place.

Back to original point, comparing hugely complicated and multi - leveled real life scenarios with a computer game? Not sure it can be done.

Gregoshi

04-14-2004, 17:07

Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ April 14 2004,09:11)]This is probably a better thread for the TAVERN...
Any topic is open for discussion in the Entrance Hall so that Junior Patrons can participate. The topic was started by a Junior Patron and some Junior Patrons are participating, so all is well.

Very good observations Lord Ovaat. The fragmented nature of the Iraqi society makes things vastly more difficult. The idea of cooperation between the factions is buried by hundreds of years of hostilities. They all seem to have this my way or the highway attitude. They don't understand that under a democratic government they can effect changes with the word rather than with the gun. It is going to take years for the people to trust the government - assuming the government is worthy of that trust. I just hope it can last long enough to make a difference but that seems doubtful in the current environment. Violence has become a way of life for too many.

Don Corleone

04-14-2004, 19:14

Funny thing about what's going on in Iraq. For one reason or another, so many of the people arming these militias are actually from countries other than Iraq. Remember all those Palestinians cheering as they climbed on busses in January 2003? Ever wonder where they went? I feel really bad for the Iraqi people, because their country has been turned into a chessboard with 9 different players. Yes, the US obviously is taking a role to make certain that the final outcome is favorable to the US foreign policy goals. But who's really being naive if you're going to claim that France, Russia and China aren't all over there doing the same thing? Iran has already gone on record stating that nothng less than a Shi'ite government, enforcing their particular version of Sharia will be acceptable to them and they're working pretty damn hard through Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad to see to it that they get their way. I have no idea what's the idea behind all the money Syria is pumping to the insurgents, I can't actually see any movement towards a goal on their part, other than they believe that a destabilized Iraq is in their best interest. And then finally, there's the 800 lb. gorilla in the room nobody wants to talk about. The reason the US hasn't been cracking down on outside insurgents more than they have been is that they already know what they're going to find, that a majority of the money is flowing in from our 'friends', the Saudis. I suspect that until we can completely remove ourselves from Riyadh and other support operations within the Kingdom, we don't want to rock the boat with them too much. That might sound a touch overly suspicious, but I read a really interesting paper on nationalsecurity.org that was written by a field analyst for Saudi Arabia. It basically concludes that not only did the Saudi government allow the Khobar towers to be blown up, they ordered it because they were pissed that US had cut back on military aid and weapons sales. I'm not saying that really happened, because the report was eventually overlooked by George Tenet, I'm just saying it really makes you stop and think.

HopAlongBunny

04-14-2004, 19:54

The US made a mistake going for regime change in Iraq.

Saddam was a bastage, but to the Iraqi's he was at least their bastage.

Given the many different grps in Iraq who all have a different view of what is best, I am not surprised that violence is the result of removing the strongman. Anyone remember what happened to Yugoslavia after Tito died?

So now the US is filling the position of national strongman in Iraq. Dirty job but someone has to do it in order for the bulk of the pop. to get on with life.

All the US really has to do is formulate a law/property regime that the majority of Iraqis agree to and implement it; only took on the order of 100years in the US, how long could it possibly take in Iraq?

Tristan

04-14-2004, 20:36

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ April 14 2004,04:36)]What really scares me is that if USA can´t contain theese rebellions that she´s faced with a situation worse than Vietnam. Atleast the Vietnamese didn´t have fundamentalists and suicide bombers and yet they managed to kick USA out. That´s why USA now need the UN otherwise the situation can´t be controlled.
This is a common misconception about the Vietnam War. The US was not kicked out. The war took on many stages. There was the French involvement (let's not even go there ;), then various stages leading up to a high level of US military involvement. First the VC tried their luck against the US. At first they were successful in small raiding groups, but nothing that was overly effective. When they did try a large offensive, they lost a million men, a third of their force, to a vastly superior US military (the Tet Offensive).

Following this, the VC became mostly support for the NVA. The US took losses, but the NVA took far more. The American public wanted out, so the US and the RVA negotiated a ceasefire with the NVA and VC, and pulled their troops out. Three years later came the fall of Saigon, when the US had a very small number of troops in the country, mostly protecting the embassy. The American public was more responsible for kicking out the US forces than the NVA and VC were.

The US can easily contain these rebellions, but it's the reaction at home that they're more worried about. Every US soldier killed is seen as almost an apocalyptic event, yet the number of rebels lost is many folds higher.

Ever played Civilization? Under democracy, it was very hard for me to fight a war. One attack and I would have massive rebellions everywhere, even though I was more than capable of defeating the enemy. It's similar to both Vietnam and Iraq.

The_Emperor

04-14-2004, 20:48

True the North Vietnamese lost more men than the USA did.

However the difference is that they were much more willing to accept high losses over time than the US was because they were defending their homeland.

Likewise the Iraqis are defending their homeland and they will be more willing to accept high losses over time...

There's an old Chinese proverb, You Cannot be the Master in Another Man's Home

makkyo

04-14-2004, 21:56

If it means coming in with about a lot men and some inquisitioners to burn the heretics alive then no

Yushal

04-14-2004, 23:41

What surprised me was when just last week that stack of M1-Abrams and stealth bombers appeared outside Baghdad under rebel control. I guess I should have expected it. And here General Franks has grown an extra toe Oh no

PanzerJaeger

04-15-2004, 00:24

About the UN thing... Wat could they do that the US couldnt? If, as everyone says, this is jsut a power struggle, do you think the rebels will give up power to the UN? Personally i dont even like the idea of Polish and Japanese forces in country. They are more of a liability than an asset, because of language, training, and other differences. They are there for a good cause, and its very noble of them to be willing to contribute their own people, but quite honestly they arent filling any vital roles that couldnt be filled by US or British troops(who have a very long history of training and fighting together).

Grand Warder of the Kremlin

04-15-2004, 00:41

The United Nations, if nothing else, could at least lend credibility and a sense of responsibility to what has thus far been viewed by most of the international community as the United States invading Iraq for its own personal gain. If troops from all nations were assisting the maintenance of order in Iraq, the war could perhaps be seen as a global police action against the dangerous policies of Saddam Hussein, though in reality there is no justification for such a statement. President Bush, in particular, would enjoy the UN's credibility as a factor in his upcoming bid for re-election.

Lord Ovaat

04-15-2004, 15:59

JAG, if the long range goals of the US really are to establish a puppet regime in Iraq, don't you think it would have been much easier to accomplish during the Gulf War when the most powerful army ever assembled was in place to do the job? Puppets are really expensive--high maintenance. Lots of folks seem to believe the US is interested only in oil. Oil interests all developed nations. Does the US buy a lot of oil? Certainly. But I think the world would be amazed at the vast quantities of coal, gas, and oil still in the ground in the States. And, as long as the US can buy it somewhere--and more comes from South America than people think--why not? The reserves are still in the ground. And, like wine, it improves with age. ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

squippy

04-15-2004, 16:34

Quote[/b] (Lord Ovaat @ April 15 2004,09:59)]

Quote[/b] ] JAG, if the long range goals of the US really are to establish a puppet regime in Iraq, don't you think it would have been much easier to accomplish during the Gulf War when the most powerful army ever assembled was in place to do the job?

Yes. Thats exackly why the neocons insisted that the job had not been finished. It was merely politically impossible at the time because the casus belli was the occupation of Kuwait; hence all the lies about 'non-compliance' of recent vintage.

Quote[/b] ] Lots of folks seem to believe the US is interested only in oil. Oil interests all developed nations. Does the US buy a lot of oil? Certainly. But I think the world would be amazed at the vast quantities of coal, gas, and oil still in the ground in the States.

Venezuaela is the US main south american supplier, and a member of OPEC. I do not hink the Us needs to control a supply of oile; but it does need to be able to undercut OPEC. If it controls a major supplier, as it now does, it can always destroy any price controls OPEC agrees.

There are resources in the US, but these are expensive and dispersed by comparison to the Middle eastern ones. Thats why mkost of these were ignored in earlier decades, they were simply uneconomic.

thomonkey

04-16-2004, 08:45

doesnt iraq have the potential to be better than it was before the US showed up? i dont get why some are ungrateful. anywyas, i think that the US will try to set some things up, and then leave as soon as possible, cuz they dont want it to get into a long drawn out thing.

Durruti

04-16-2004, 13:57

Watch your pronouns.

My gov't is the one where the individual who receives 500,000 more votes in the presidential election TAKES OFFICE. My gov't guarantees everyone desiring a job, a job at a living-family wage. My gov't does not invade someopne else's country in order to fight muslim extremists that it's CIA financed & armed (Saddam in Iraq-so he could attack Iran -in a war that killed 1 million) & (Al Kaida in Afganistan so they could attack the Soviet Union).

Both Saddam & Bin laden were armed & trained to be murderers by the USA-CIA. The USA gov't. supplied the poison gas that Iraq used against Iran. Weapons of mass destruction????? (do I need a verb?).

My gov't is Anarchist, Ralph Nader, Naom Chomsky, Martin Luther King, & Liv Tyler. We (my gov't) did not invade Iraq, Grenada, Mexico, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Panama, Nicaragua, Puerto Rico (Que viva Puerto Rico Libre),Brooklyn, Key West (we want independence in our own Conch Republic)or a hundred other places.

Both MTW & Europa Universales have nice programming where revolts will break out if one country takes over too much territory. Possibly the developers of MTW & Europa should advise the US govt. on world affairs. HEY, they could do no worse than Rumsfield et al.

PS i've heard that an Englishman by the name of George Washington is launching a struggle for independence from the USA. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Ovaat

04-16-2004, 14:25

Gee, you seem to live in a pretty horrible place. Glad I don't live there.

Durruti

04-16-2004, 17:14

[/QUOTE]

I guess Gee you refers to me. Facts are facts. I live where I live. I have also lived in Latin America & Europe; but I'm a Brooklyn boy who saw Jackie Robinson play baseball.

Facts are facts. The Holocaust happened. To this day, Germans who lived accross the street from the crematorium deny having knowledge of what was happening in them. I lost the entire family on my mother's side. My dad fought the fascists in the Belgian army, managed to get to the US and joined the American army.

I live in a beautiful world. Have 2 children & a beautiful ex-wife. I fish, and like Jimmy Carter & Clinton, lust.

I live in a beautiful world, but facts are facts.

If we are interested in history, functional democracy, republican forms of gov't, and social justice (aren't we all), then facts are facts.

It's a beautiful world, specially today when I am off work & free till Monday, and the sun is shining, I will try to do some fishing; but facts are facts.

Durruti

04-16-2004, 17:18

Quote[/b] (Durruti @ April 16 2004,11:14)]Gee you seem to live in a pretty horrible place. Glad I don't live there.

I guess Gee you refers to me. Facts are facts. I live where I live. I have also lived in Latin America & Europe; but I'm a Brooklyn boy who saw Jackie Robinson play baseball.

Facts are facts. The Holocaust happened. To this day, Germans who lived accross the street from the crematorium deny having knowledge of what was happening in them. I lost the entire family on my mother's side. My dad fought the fascists in the Belgian army, managed to get to the US and joined the American army.

I live in a beautiful world. Have 2 children & a beautiful ex-wife. I fish, and like Jimmy Carter & Clinton, lust.

I live in a beautiful world, but facts are facts.

If we are interested in history, functional democracy, republican forms of gov't, and social justice (aren't we all), then facts are facts.

It's a beautiful world, specially today when I am off work & free till Monday, and the sun is shining, I will try to do some fishing; but facts are facts.
[QUOTE]

PanzerJaeger

04-16-2004, 22:01

Anarchist?? Didnt they assasinate one of the US presidents?

Will you not be satisfied until america is defenseless against her enemies and we all live in a communist paradise?

Durruti

04-17-2004, 01:16

In real life I am a Democratic Party Committeeman (a small office within the party). Anarchists believe in DEMOCRACY-elections, THE right to work at a living wage, AND small government. We are on the left, but NOT supporters of any kind of dictatorship. If you read my first post I declared Gore won the election because he received 500,000 votes more than Bush. That is my opinion. That, besides the fact that I like to play fun games & fish & wench is the best life I know.

Get it? No dictatorship, Stalinist, fascist, or undemocratic oligarchies (who can't honestly count votes). The wealthy buy elections in America, which is why we-(pronoun) need reforms to improve our practice of freedom.
Why is anyone to the left of Bush called a communist? Is that a compliment?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-argue.gif

Durruti

04-17-2004, 01:24

Yes an anarchist killed a president McKinley. It wasn't me. An actor killed Lincoln; it dosen't condemn all actors. German capitalist Krupp (the richest man in Europe) used slave labor during WWII. Are all Germans, or all capitalists bad?

Yushal

04-17-2004, 05:15

Only the ones that live across from the crematorium.

PanzerJaeger

04-18-2004, 06:04

Lay off the Germans little socialist... facism and modern day leftist thinking are very similar.. redistribution of wealth, unwavering believe in big government, and other populist ideas.

Durruti

04-18-2004, 15:40

Are you blind?

I am not a socialist. I believe in a mixed economy-public schools & private. Police & responsible citizens, Firemen & volunteer firemen. Strong unions controlled by the rank & file & a lively private business sector with a rising small capitalist sector (family owned businesses-restaurants etc.). Some GOV'T. agencies to ensure our food & water is safe to eat & DRINK, & others to ensure our hospitals & other essential infrastructure function.

For the rest, anarchists want a SMALL gov't. Jefferson believed in having a standing army large enough to hold a good parade; for the rest of the NATION'S defense he believed in a well armed (and educated) citizenry would make it impossible for anyone to conquer America. Small army, small CIA & FBI & Large bill of rights are where we take our stand.

As for picking on the Germans, they never paid for their crimes against humanity-especially their crimes against the Jews. They got off lightly. They killed my father's father & most of my mother's family (who were German Jews - GERMANS) The 6 million Jews (murdered civilians by German state terrorists-NAZIS), 3 million Russian prisoners of war who were starved to death, 2 million Gypsies, Polish, Yugoslavs, Greeks, Dutch, Belgians, Czechs, French, Spanish (1936-1939) etc., etc., - all murdered.

Facts are facts. I am aware that to this day the Japanese politicians have not admitted they started the war against America. Facts are facts. I don't pick on Germans - or Japanese, but at the Warsaw Ghetto rising-1944, my people defended themselves against Germans. By the way, my dad & mom both spoke German among other languages.

*I wonder if those in charge of this forum are nervous about this political-discussion divergence from gaming topics. If so, I would not fault their pulling this discussion from their forum. However, I believe an honest debate among citizens of the world can only be of benefit to free people; and debates can happen anywhere, from Barber shops to gaming forums.

I summarize; I am not a socialist (although I respect them that advocates a total socialist economy-even tho I find them in error) & I do not pick on Germans; I DEFEND MYSELF AGAINST THEM. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif