How to Breed

[Shepherd78]

anyone have any ideas how to breed the perfect prince? ...Mine all seem to have 1 command and some have none and iff I get REALLY lucky I'll get a 2 command.... so please inform the ignorant. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

[Lord Ovaat]

Are there any frogs involved? If so, I don't want any part of this. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif However, without frogs, the harder the setting, the crappier my kids seem to be. Only time I've ever really gotten good heirs is with the Byzantines, and they are consistently good no matter what I'm playing. Don't know why. In fact, the tougher factions always seem to have the worst heirs. My worst have usually been with the Danes. Kinda odd. Does anyone know if this is glitch, coincidence, or hard code? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[katank]

okay.

what you do is try and max out your ruler's influence as well as selective breeding for the successor to the throne.

maxing influence can be done through multiple jihads at a single province easily as the muslims or crusades.

else, fight and win lots of battles and help your allies take provinces or break a siege.

also, getting your king involved in personal combat is very helpful too.

BTW, the princes tend to be within +-2 * from the king but within a few generations, it can be lifted up.

there is a wrap around effect where 10* is counted as 0*. Thus, 8* and 9* kings produce duds.

For my experience, 6* or 7* kings seem to be the best.

bad crown princes should be sent on suicide missions to die. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

anything to improve the pedigree http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Ironside]

Always try to increase dread, always kill rebels, always kill prisoners taken on the battlefield. If you're fighting rebels and your king is commanding, kill your first prisoner and spare the rest to execute them later, unless you've gotten more than 1000 prisoners. WARNING do not use your king in battle when your empire has grown large, use them when they are princes.

To increase acumen, it exist one way: Failed assassin attempts. One of the four assassin V&V increases acumen at first, up to two. Beware that one line decreases acumen, so you might need to reload. Only use v0 assassins ofcourse, after a certain command level your king will get immune to v0 assassins.

I think Katank filled in the rest.

For the Byz or Russians, I've got no idea how to increase Piety except luck and max influence, but I don't think they need it anyway.

And why strong lines gets better heirs:
Good princes starts with more influence when they becomes king.

And a notice, sometimes your king goes from max influence to one or zero without any reason (some kind of bug). It increases back to max with 2 steps a year (1, 3, 5, 7, 9 or 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 9). If your son matures during this period then, there's a large risk that he will suck, especially when the influence is really low.

[Kongamato]

A Guide to Good Breeding by A. MonkeyMan
Written by MonkeyMan on Oct 31, 2002

Excerpt from the deathbed speech of King Alfred III of the English c.1256

“Come in close my son so you can hear me speak, for before I die I would pass on the advice my father gave to me on the day he died, and his father gave to him …. Right back to Mad King Steven I the inbred loon on the Penguin people.

Good breeding is a science my son, you are proof of this, you are twice the man I was at your age and much greater a man than your two older brothers who died mysterious deaths soon after coming of age.

I shall tell you what I know of it that my line will continue down the ages and your sons will in turn be as powerful god fearing and intelligent as you are now.

Firstly my son to start you down the road of heirs is marriage. Your own mother was the daughter or Philippe the foolish of the French, and learn this well, it matters not who you marry, only that to be married before you come to the throne is an advantage in the heirs you bring when you come to be king. You know I was unable to find you a foreign bride, it seems that it is lonely at the top, but it matters not. As any man knows, sons are merely slightly different versions of themselves, with the mothers part done once the child is ripped from her womb, such that she may return to her leisure and have no contact with her noble son.

A sons upbringing should be with his father, perhaps at the birth of a son you should step back and contemplate your moves, we cannot go back on ourselves and bring up a son in the proper way if mistakes are made can we? But worry not, a couple of years matter not if the upbringing is sound, by the time the child has reached about 12 little can be done to change him. At these points the father should show the son how to rule, make war and put down rebellions. Always ensure you have at least one heir, but when there are some to choose from make sure the best of your sons is next in line the throne, the others as was the case with your unfortunate older brothers met with deaths at the hands of the inquisition and the spears of rebellious masses and assassins sanctioned by unknowns. Of course your brother Henry died in battle with myself, seemingly not being the general in the battle made him feel quite unhealthy that day and when he charged impetuously out with his men, him at the front in some kind of arrowhead formation as we defended the hill I knew he would not return to camp that evening.

When your son is 14 and about to come of age, ensure you return to your capital, that he might receive the best weapons and armour you can find.

Once you have a good heir, you must train him as you have trained yourself up until his coming of age. Give to him a strong army of powerful units, like yours of chivalric knights with superb armour and incite rebellion in Scotland and Portugal. Every year or so, a rebellion will come and your army kept in fine Wessex will go and sort out the problem, make sure you take about half the number of rebels, such that everyone can have a few to themselves. If the army has spears dismount some of your men and take some archers. When you feel safely in control of the battle charge in yourself and learn the joy of combat. Once the captured rebels are assembled, sometimes kill them, and sometime s show mercy depending on the reputation you wish to forge, but once you have a reputation, simply kill the leaders. Following this path should insure each generation passes on an extra level of command experience to the next, that your sons may learn of the lessons of the past.

Send your son on a crusade, but fund it well with good troops and make sure it is over quickly, in my youth this taught me to be the gentle knight I am now and my men honour me as a result.

If you wish piety of your son, you should employ a lowly inquisitor with little skill, try him. There has never been any chance of him being guilty, but this tutelage has served you well my son, and despite the annoyance and the fact you are a confirmed atheist the populace believe you to be holier than the pope himself.

Build a University that your son may learn from scholars and effectively run an economy.

This my son is how it has been for generations, you are 9 times the man your ancestors were, and the kingdom is run by powerful relatives in all its most important parts, showing that long term benefits can be gained from such a practice.

Finally my son beware gods judgement on the powerful for it is well know that those such as you can spawn sons with no military ability at all for in the bible it is written that 9+1 does not equal 10 but 0.

Go now my son there is much work for you to do. I die…..”

One year later King Richard IV declared himself the second King of the penguin people and was often seen in heavily drunken orgies with young boys, his own mother and a Goat called Bob. His rule lasted for only 5 years.

The moral of this is even the best laid plans are doomed to failure, so why bother in the first place.

[SwordsMaster]

suggestion: put this thread somewhere in the Guides forum...Its gonna be useful.

[Doug-Thompson]

Heirs are nice, but so is inheriting an entire kingdom when a rival's faction leader dies. It's about the only benefit the marriage hassle provides.

On rare occasions when I play Catholic factions, I accept every offer of marriage by every rival faction, but wonder what else can be done.

Also, can an Orthodox ruler inherit a Catholic kingdom, and vice-versa?

[katank]

I have never checked.

Too bad no right minded princess would like to join my Turkish harem.

I was hoping to then wipe out their faction with my Syria assasins and get their lands.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 16 2004,19:35)]Too bad no right minded princess would like to join my Turkish harem.

I was hoping to then wipe out their faction with my Syria assasins and get their lands.
When you eliminate their faction, all the princesses join the harem. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Red Harvest]

Only slightly off topic--but related. Sending your King into combat (and winning) seems to turn on the queen and maker her fertile. I've set around for 20 years, with a young king (initially) hoping to get some heirs. Nothing. Finally sent him off into combat. Next turn, out pops a son. Haven't done much to confirm this...but I have noticed it some recently. Maybe the king lost some weight while on the campaign, or maybe he looked buff in his armour. ...or perhaps while the king was away the lady did play...

[Leo]

Hm, I noticed the opposite. A king sitting duck is more likely to produce some children than one constantly moving around.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 16 2004,05:33)]BTW, the princes tend to be within +-2 * from the king but within a few generations, it can be lifted up.
there is a wrap around effect where 10* is counted as 0*. Thus, 8* and 9* kings produce duds.
No, this is not the case. These things have been reported since MTW has been released, but the developers have denied this is glitch. There is always a chance on getting a 0 command heir regardless of his father's skill. If there is a higher chance for this when having high command kings, it is probably because your empire is doing very well by then and the game tries to slow you down.

Neither does marrying foreign princesses increase the quality of your heirs (I don't know about marrying your own princesses, except that it gives the incest vice to the groom, which lowers his piety). Marrying foreign princesses is useful for getting heirs early, though.

Other than that, it is a great guide and should be posted in the guides forum.

[Red Harvest]

Ludens,

I'm pretty sure you are incorrect about that. When I have gotten very high star Kings, I got a bunch of zero/one star heirs and none worth a flip. Considering I was getting 6's an 7's consistently before, there is no doubt in my mind that this was caused by star wrap. I have not had the problem in a long time since I take pains to keep my Kings at moderate levels now. There is a chance that some patch fixed it, but it has been well established in the past.

I've not seen a developer deny it. Can you provide a link? Would be interested to see what they said was the cause.

[Ironside]

Ludens

I know that the developers have denied it, but they exist. Their existance goes aginst the entire breeding system. They appear only when the king is 7-9 star and not when he's 4-6 (in EXTREMELY rare cases you can teoreticaly get a zero star son, but you have to get a lousy son that added to that get the V&V of inbread, very lazy and secret pride, and probably together.)
And the odds to get them is biggest when you got 9 influence, again something against the nature of breeding (the more influence you got, the better the chances of a good heir).
And those sons often get better stats than their father, exept in command.
And I've gotten 5 0-star heirs out of 7 sons once.

The logical conclution is they wrap-around effeck is there, or the entire breeding system is wrong up there.

And the developers haven't said anything about that they added something to make many zero-star sons appear if you're big.

And here's another wraparound. Take a 9-piety king, launch 4 jihads, succeed with them and you'll end up with with a king with lower piety than before (estimated 3 but possibly lower). I'm not sure if you can crate this effect with only one jihad, but if you have 4 piety, launches 6 successful jihads you'll get a zero-pitey king.

I guess that you'll need to win your tenth star through raw battle to get the wrap affect during his lifetime, witch means that if the Shogun system still stays you'll need to win 1024 battles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ludens]

Ironside, it seems that you have more experience with the game than I, so you are probably right. I was just repeating what I read in the archive.
About the link between influence and heir stats: is it certain? I seem to recall a discussion in which the claim that it did could not be proven to satisfaction.

Red Harvest,


Quote[/b] ]I've not seen a developer deny it. Can you provide a link? Would be interested to see what they said was the cause.
I read it somewhere in the archive, but when I checked I couldn't find the thread again. But I remember it was an old thread in which a developer said something along the lines off: Sorry to disappoint all you eager bug hunters, but this is not a bug. It is a feature. There is always a chance that you will get a zero command son (independent of the command level of his father).

[Red Harvest]

Ahh, if a developer said it was a feature, not a bug, then that would explain it. They create the wrap effect to restore some parity I suspect.

[katank]

well, I'm not sure about influence part. my 9 influence kings always seem to generate heirs that are +2 command stars compared to him. This is excepting only the cases with 8* or 9* kings and occasionally 7*.

In all my campaigns, my king is always around 9 influence and I've yet to see a 0* heir from a 6* or below.

BTW, I've had the piety wrap around. It increases back to the max 2 at a time just like influence.

[son of spam]

Piety wraparound? I don't think that really exists. I believe that influence only affects command stars and *maybe* acumen. I've had a 5 or 6 piety king before producing 3-5 piety sons even with 9 influence. Thus, it seems unlikely that a high piety king will make wraparound sons.

BTW what does the Queen say to the King?

Your son is so good he's a total loser

[gaelic cowboy]

I thought that the wraparound bug you talk about was actually just a graphical error and if you check the log files it will show the correct piety dread etc.

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (gaelic cowboy @ April 19 2004,21:14)]I thought that the wraparound bug you talk about was actually just a graphical error and if you check the log files it will show the correct piety dread etc.
No it isn't. It's affect the stats of the hiers that matures during this time. Your hier will get 0-1 piety if your king get the wrap around affect and show up with 0 piety.


Citera[/b] ]Thus, it seems unlikely that a high piety king will make wraparound sons.

Piety wraparounds happens only with your current king, not your sons as far as I know, although your sons get affected by it.


Citera[/b] ]Ahh, if a developer said it was a feature, not a bug, then that would explain it. They create the wrap effect to restore some parity I suspect.

The developers never said that it was a extra feature added for high star kings. You can get a 0-star son from a 9-star king normaly, but's extremly rare and explained better in my earlier post.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ April 18 2004,21:29)]Ahh, if a developer said it was a feature, not a bug, then that would explain it. They create the wrap effect to restore some parity I suspect.
I remember that the developer said that the chance on a zero star heir was equal for low and high command kings. But I am not so sure about that any more.
Anyway, if there are wrap around effects for piety and command, then why not for loyalty, dread and acumen?

Ironside, what exactly is the effect of influence on breeding?

Sorry for the delay.

[katank]

really? I suppose that's genuine 0*s vs. the wrap around 0*s.

I sure get a lot more 0* with a 8 or 9* king compared to 6* or 7* ones.

I think more influence the better.

generally expect +2* from ruler when at 9 max, -2* when at 0 or 1.

naturally, this fluctuates within about 1.

I think other stats also go up with uber influence.

I've recently had a batch of byz heirs who all have 7*+, 9 dread, and 6+ acumen as well as 5 or 6 piety.

they are like perfect heirs or govs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ]Anyway, if there are wrap around effects for piety and command, then why not for loyalty, dread and acumen?

It's one for influence, but it seems random (or possibly, I haven't broken the pattern yet). Suddenly your king's influence goes to 1 or 0 from 9. It will then increase with 2 every year, until you get 9 again. I've got screenies of this and can show it soon.
But why the rest isn't affected, I'm not sure. I guess that command is bugged and that you'll need to get more than 9 in a regular fashion and not by v&v. A possible test would be to try those accumen improving events on a nine accumen general.


Citera[/b] ]Ironside, what exactly is the effect of influence on breeding?
Katank covered it mostly. To be simple, the more the better.
And to be more complicated, the more influence you have the better are your chances to get a heir as good as your king or better, and the chances to get a really bad heir is 0% at 9 influence. A wrap around heir is still often a good governor with a strong line.
At 9 influence I suspect the randomness is -1-+2 while at lower levels it's -3-+2 but your odds for a good heir is ALOT lower.
Think of this, how often is your first son in the game better than his father? This is especially obvious in the VI-campaign when it's hard to get max influence. I've only got a super-line once in a VI-campaign and it demanded reloading and war to prevent a really stupid son (stat-drop by 2 on all stats, except piety that got -1, it was a 4 influence king) (the sons seem to get their stat change when the king get some change to his stats (possibly v&v to), even when it's a unseen change (= winning a battle or executing rebels for example).

Command seems to be the easiest to rise by a high influence.

[Ironside]

Here's some screens on a influence wrap-around. I think it happens more often than you think, considering that you don't always check your kings influence.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Ironside%20influence%201%20bug.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Ironside%20influence%203%20bug.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Ironside%20influence%207%20bug.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/Ironside%20influence%209%20bug.jpg

How often do you see a strong Aragonese empire BTW?

[katank]

@ ironside,

completely agree

this is why I made a difference between genuine 0*'s and wrap around ones as the latter often have high dread, acumen etc. that makes for good govs regardless.

naturally, I consider command the single most important stat but high acumen, piety, and dread can make up for low command as long as he's not becoming king and screwing over you royal line command wise.