Balkan D-Day 1944.

[Hetman]

What do You think about landing in Yugoslavia or Albania instead of invading France ?
Choosing this area for second front isn't without several advantage
- this could mean cutting the oil supply lines from Romania,
- Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania were not very happy as German allies, especially after Stalingrad, and could change side betraying Hitler-poor man nobody liked him.
- the pro-ally resistance was strong in Yugoslavia and in Poland - much more stronger than in France.


Do You think was it a good idea, I know Churchill thought it was the best way to defeat Hitler and save Europe from Stalin.



Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[71-hour Ahmed]

hard country to advance through though. France after the bocage is perfect tank country, and had large ports that could be used. Plus where would the troops mass and launch from?

[Leodegar]

i think there were plans like that (i think actually about landing in greece). especially churchill thought about it, with the background of not letting whole eastern europe fall to the russians...

but i agree the landscape there is diffucult to advance fast. and there was all that partisan warfare, which actually was kind of an additional front and occupied a lot of german troops to hold them down...

[Michiel de Ruyter]

Multiply the number of Allied dead by at least 10, if not more.. The allies would have to advance through mountains, easily blocked passes and the like. Think of what happened in Italy, and scale it up a few notches.

Landing in the Balkans would also cause severe logistical problems.

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (Michiel de Ruyter @ April 16 2004,17:16)]Multiply the number of Allied dead by at least 10, if not more.. The allies would have to advance through mountains, easily blocked passes and the like. Think of what happened in Italy, and scale it up a few notches.

Landing in the Balkans would also cause severe logistical problems.
I agree. With England not very far away, France is the best choise.

[spmetla]

It'd hard fighting through tough country but if say they landed in Greece they'd be able to stop the Red Army's advance from much farther away.

I need to know a few things before I can go off theorizing.
1) Would the 1943 Italian campaign already have been carried out.

2) I assume they'd launch from Syria and invade Greece then Romania then head straight for the Balkans so as to stop the Soviets all the while probing into Austria and Bohemia.

3) Would they move strategic bombers to the medieterrean as well?

4) Would they be equipping partisan forces prior to the invasion like they did in France?

Answer these and I'll write a good theory of what would happen.

[Michiel de Ruyter]

Okay, here are my answers...


Quote[/b] (spmetla @ April 16 2004,22:21)]It'd hard fighting through tough country but if say they landed in Greece they'd be able to stop the Red Army's advance from much farther away.

I need to know a few things before I can go off theorizing.
1) Would the 1943 Italian campaign already have been carried out. [/b]

I think so, or something similar... as the needed a base for their biggest asset, the tactical airforce. Whichg means that bases have to be relatively close to the front. It also makes most sence. It can provide a stable base for the tactical airforce, and for strategic bomber forces as well...


Quote[/b] ]
2) I assume they'd launch from Syria and invade Greece then Romania then head straight for the Balkans so as to stop the Soviets all the while probing into Austria and Bohemia.


Romania would be impossible to invade, as neutral Turkye is in between the Med and the Black Sea. The only option would be something like campaign in Italy... move up along the coast.


Quote[/b] ]
3) Would they move strategic bombers to the Mediterrenean as well?

I assume they would, as they did in reality.. from 1943 onwards, one of the biggest bases for B-17 Europe was the are around Foggia. Besides the fact


Quote[/b] ]
4) Would they be equipping partisan forces prior to the invasion like they did in France?

Answer these and I'll write a good theory of what would happen..

I assume they would, as they already did.

[spmetla]

Well in that case I believe that Germany would have held out for another year. All of it's bases and air bases in France would have remained in German hands instead of slowly being lost. Despite the bombing from Britain they'd still be able to operate somewhat. Perhaps they may have even launched those V-1 rockets from atop the Ar-234 jet bombers like they had planned.

The reason I believe the war would have lasted another year would be because with the Western allies racing to cuto off the advance of the Soviets they would slowly lose the fighting power of the Red Army as well. The Nazi high command would probably have run off to the Alps and try to sue for peace and if that failed we might have seen another assasination attempt of Hitler so that the Germans could surrender.

[Oaty]

I'm surprised noone mentioned a 3 way war because by this time the allies had begun realizing Stalins plans for eastern Europe. How well would the allies have to guard the northern border to guard against Russian troops and vice versa Russia would be doing the same. Would this provoke Stalin to break his alliance causing a war with the Germans and the allies. I see this would be one of the reasons for not doing this as it could cause a neverending war plus Stalin didn't care how many of his own men he wasted as long as the objective was acheived

[Hetman]

Try to consider that the Germans were not the sole rulers of the Balkan Peninsula. Hungary, Bulgaria and possibly Romania and Slovakia couldn't be called 'our trusted allies' by the Germans. I know that for example Hungarian government was trying to find out about possible peace treaty with the allies ( I mean USA and the UK) in 1943. These countries wouldn't fight for long ( if at all) against the Allies. This way several problems encountered in Italy could be avoided. Also occupation of these countries by German forces would be much more difficult than in Italy ( 'the Salo Republic' case).

Regards Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[spmetla]

The nations in the balkans though were certainly more pro german than pro russian and when it became apparent that Russia would win the war they wanted out before they became puppet states. I'm fairly certain that Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and puppet State Croatia wouldn't have appreciated their soveriegnty being violated by the western allies. A war in the balkans would have been a costly one. I guess on the bright side though, all those beautiful French towns wouldn't have been shelled by artillery and laden with mines although the cities would still be bombed by the 8th Air Force and Bomber Command.

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (spmetla @ April 20 2004,21:29)]The nations in the balkans though were certainly more pro german than pro russian and when it became apparent that Russia would win the war they wanted out before they became puppet states.
Though after Stalingrad they were less willing to fight.
They would rather choose western allies than German or Russian occupation - especially Hungary and Bulgaria, they reasons to join Axis were much different than Croatia, which I didn't mention at all.
For example in August 1944 when Warsaw Uprising started a Hungarian Corps nearby was quite willing to JOIN the Uprising, German high command decided to re-deploy them as soon as possible to avoid this possibility.

regards Cegorach/Hetman

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[Stefan the Berserker]

Well, the Western Allies planned an Invasion of the Balkan and were making preparations but Stalin "bribed" them to use the Way through France instead.

The Russians knew that the occupation of eastern Europe was their great chance to become a Worldpower that could spreed Communism, so they did all to avoid this Situation.


Zitat[/b] ]Would this provoke Stalin to break his alliance causing a war with the Germans and the allies.

Stalin just passed this Message to the Allies.

You can read these things in "Kleine Geschichte der Sowjet Union", don't know the English Title (if there is one at all).

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The best thing that could have happened was if the assasination of Hitler on 20th July had been succsessful:

The commanders of the german Garison in France, including Erwin Rommel, and many officials in Germany wanted to Revolt against the NSDAP. This Event would have allowed the Allies to start the D-Day at the Coast of Saxony instead of Normandy, apart from the Fact that the rebellious Troops would also have been a HUGE effect through the "Desert Fox" was their leader.