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PSYCHO
04-16-2004, 10:35
Ok we’ve all seen CA’s British Druid unit. So how do they stand up under critical scrutiny?

Areas of concern:

1)NOT FACTUAL:

Well, I believe there's good evidence to the contrary. They are factual

“Many people have taken one quote of Caesars and built their whole mental picture from it” – Ellis. Ellis is refering to the line in Caesar’s ‘D Bello Gallico’ where he states that Druids are exempt from military service. Many have interpreted that ‘exemption’ as a prohibition. There is a very big difference. All Celtic men of fighting age could be levied / conscripted at the descression of the Warlord / Cheiftain, King. The Druids were exempt from forced combat, but this did not mean they never fought and there is much evidence to suggest that they did volunteer to fight.

Again in quoting ‘D Bello Gallico, Book VI’, “All Druids are under one head, whom they hold in the highest respect. On his death, if any one of the rest is of outstanding merit , he succeeds to the vacant place, if several have equal claims, the Druids usually decide the election by voting, though sometimes they decide the matter by an armed struggle to the death”; Ellis makes a mockery of some of the fanciful concepts of Druids by stating “…now I can hardly envisage two old decrepit priests with long beards beating each other to death with mistletoe”.

The modern idea of non-combatant Druids comes from the work of Houston Stewart Chamberlain in his notorious ‘race history’ ‘Die Grundlagen des Neunzenhnten Jahrhundrets’ (Foundations of the Nineteenth Century, 1899) which became the basis for Nazi political philosophy. The Celts who had been attached to German ancestory, were sanitised of features that were “opposed to Aryan sentiment”. The Druids who practised such “uncivilised” activities as sacrifice were depicted as a foreign invading priesthood, racially different from the “racially pure Aryan (Indo European) Celts”. It was argued that these Druid priests perverted the Celts till the later’s warrior caste over-threw “the perversion” in the 1st Century BC. This theory is utter trash, yet many seem to still adhere to belief that the Druids were somehow completely isolated and removed from the rest of Celtic society and all it’s warlike traditions. .

Examples from History:

Ellis states that “This is complete fantasy. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest this. The Druids of Gaul in the first century BC were certainly not in decline and many Gaulish kings and military leaders have been clearly shown to have been both Druids and members of the military caste”. He cites many examples such as Divitiacus and Dumnorix of the Aedui, Gutuator of the Carnutes, Galba of the Suessiones, Boduognatus of the Nervii and even Concolitanos of the Gaesatae. Further, In Ireland a whole tribe of Druids called the Corco Mo-Druad (Seed of Druid) lived in north Clare and on the Bear Island in Cork and fought regularly with their neighbours.

Another piece of evidence lies in the wearing of the Tonsure, a strictly Druidic hair style. “In accepting the conception of Druids purely as priests, it’s no wonder that some commentators have found it difficult to work out why other professions including warriors, not simply religious functionaries, also wore a tonsure. This only confirms the contention that the Druids were not simply a priesthood but a class who could be part of the warrior elite”.- (History of the Druids, Dr Peter Berresford Ellis, 2002). Ellis later comments, “..we also find warrior champions of the Breton king Waroc’h II taking the field of battle with their head shaved with the Druidic tonsure”.

Ellis mentions that Druids are often recorded wearing torcs which are traditionally associated with the warrior caste.

Not to mention the number of references to great Druidic Warriors in Celtic Lore. So I believe one could effectively argue for the inclusion of such a unit.




2)NAME:

Needless to say, no individual, group or object was called British in this period..or for another several hundred years I might add. I doubt CA will call the Roman Praetorian Guard, Elite Vatican Infantry; nor the Carthaginian Sacred Band, Elite Tunisian Cavalry; nor Spartan Hoplites, Xenophobic Homosexual Greek Spearmen etc etc. All I ask is that the Druids, and the Germans and Celts in general for that matter, be given the same respect as other factions.
Considering that Anglesey was the centre for the Druidic teaching in Briton at the time, I believe it would be better to name the unit something akin to "Anglesey Seanchai" (Meaning “Druid Custodian of Anglesey”), thus giving them a name set in the correct historical context. I understand there are many here that would cite Shakespeare and claim a rose would smell as sweet by any other name, but that is not the case here. As the aforementioned example of Praetorians elucidates, modern simplicity detracts rather than adds in this case. I’m not suggesting that every RTW unit be named in a long winded / abstract label in an archaic language, just that due consideration is given to the historical realities of the period and that CA’s clients be given a little more credit.



3)SICKLE SWORD:

It is obvious that CA have drawn heavily from the accounts of Pliny the Elder in depicting their “British Druid” with a sickle. Pliny (d 79 AD from Mt Versuvius) was obsessed with magic and was fascinated by the Druids. He collected all sorts of hearsay, some third and forth hand information. In his ‘Naturalis Historia’ he wrote:

“Mistletoe is, however, very rarely found, and when found, it is gathered with great ceremony and especially on the sixth day of the moon…They prepare a ritual sacrifice and feast under the tree, and lead up two white bulls whose horns are bound for the first time on this occasion. A priest attired in a white vestment ascends the tree and with a golden pruning hook cuts the mistletoe which is caught in the white cloth. Then next they sacrifice the victims praying that the gods will make their gifts propitious to those to whom they have given them. They believe that if given in drink the mistletoe will give fecundity to any barren animal, and that it is predominant against all poisons”

Thus from the "prunning hook" reference, we have Sickle wielding Druids.

Ellis states that “if the Gauls did revere mistletoe and this ceremony was as important as Pliny indicates , then it is interesting that no other source corroborates this. Pliny himself merely cites Plyhistor (Alexander Cornelius b.c 105 BC) as an authority on mistletoe but he too is merely quoting someone else since lost to the historic record”

Celtic Historian, Nora Chadwick calls this passage “picturesque fantasia that ranks with the stories of King Alfred and the cakes, of Cnut and the waves, and of Bruce and the spider, among the classics of universal popular knowledge. Taken with the uncritical nature of Pliny’s writings generally. Should make us hesitate to attach too grave credence to the passage of the mistletoe in association with the Druids”

I believe it better to depict them with a Celtic long sword and staff. If CA do wish to depict them with a weapon with ‘spiritual’ significance, why not a double handed war hammer as carried by the Celtic god Sucellos (“he who strikes with good effect”); why not a large double handed long sword so often mentioned in Celtic legend being carried by Druidic warriors?



4)CLOAK:

Yes, the Druids were renown for such attire. Cassius Dio mentions that the emperor Aurelius Antonius (211-217 AD) invoked the Gaul god Grannos (god of healing and solar worship) and was given the nick-name ‘Caracalla’, derived from the long hooded cloaks once worn by Druids in Britain.
For what it’s worth, the cloak on the “British Druid” should be much longer, at least to the carves.



5)UNDER GARMENT:

Numerous authors of antiquity mention that Druids wore white garments when undertaking official duties, so the “British Druid’s” white under shirt is correct in my understanding. The only difference is that the garment would be a long sleave garment as so often attested with the upper classes of Celtic Society. I would also have the garment hang to just above the knees, beneath the chain mail shirt.



6)FOOTWEAR:

The black at the front of the “British Druid’s” shoes gives one the impression that he is wearing modern brown runners. Maybe this gives us some insight into how CA intends on having them opperate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif Oh Brave Sir Robin



7)CRESCENT SHIELD:

Well, one understands how CA have come to depict the “British Druid” with a crescent shield when such a moon has so much religious significance to the Celt, but it is hardly ideal. If the Druids carried anything other than their weapons into battle, it would have been a standard Celtic shield. I would rather see them wielding a huge War Hammer or Double-Handed Sword (both of which were wielded by Druids in Irish Lore)than the Sickle and Crescent Shield. It would definitely make gameplay a lot more ‘fun’ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif


my2bob

shingenmitch2
04-16-2004, 18:07
Okay, I'll bite...

1. I don't think anyone argued against Druids fighting. The arguement was against an entire special unit made up of only druids. If anything a druid should be something aking to unit commanders. A special Druid squad is kind of stupid.

3. Great so the druid's pruned the forest with a sickle. Still doen't make it a war weapon. That is not to say that peasants wouldn't go to battle with farm implements, but if one has the $ and social status -- and I would think it safe to say that the druids probably had both -- then a real weapon is always preferable.

7. The shield is just wrong. Small square one or large Celtic body shield. Leave the pelte to the Thracians.

PSYCHO
04-17-2004, 05:02
? So we agree.

Further, about Druids depicted as a unit. CA basically had three options to include them in RTW;

1) The first option, and probably the most historically accurate, would be to have them as individuals. The obvious problem however is gameplay. It would be a right royal pain in the *** to have several individual guys running around in the heat of battle as well as having to manage the rest of your army. Not to mention having to sacrifice one or more of the 20 army slots for one guy… who to make it worth while would have to become some super hero type. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif

2) Unit commanders. But not all unit commanders would have been Druids. It would be unrealistic and make the inclusion of any Druid reference rather pointless if every Celtic unit just have the same bonus from an inferred / actual presence. Some Celtic armies had no Druids in their midst. It would be difficult to program. Who gets a Druid commander, who doesn’t? Is it a random thing that needs to be programmed in, or just a normal unit bonus? If the later, why have a reference at all?, just give the unit higher morale etc.

3) And that leaves the third option, to depict them in a more manageable small unit. Not ideal, not 100% historically accurate, but the best over-all solution imho. I think CA are rightly, trying to reflect the special place these guys had in Celtic society whilst giving the player some good gameplay control over them on the battle field.

Leet Eriksson
04-17-2004, 05:32
I hope in 1) your not hinting for a kensai like unit.

PSYCHO
04-18-2004, 14:20
That's exactly what I'm hoping CA DON'T include faisal.

shingenmitch2
04-19-2004, 14:49
Not hinting at a kensai at all. That would be the worst possible solution. I'm saying that the druids might make sense as unit commanders, but in that case they'd be no different then the centurion -- who is part of the Roman unit.

Psych, we're disagreeing on #1 if u're supporting the Druid unit's existence. I don't think there should be a druid unit at all--just pointing out that the reason isn't because druids shouldn't fight, but instead because a "druid" squad is a completely bogus unit.

It would be something on the order of having a "Spanish Inquisition" unit in MTW. Lol makes me think of Monty Python -- nobody suspects the Inquisition You might have an inquisitor leading a troop of armed men, but as a "unit" unto itself, it's just idiotic.

#3 again, disagreeing. You might see a peasant with a pitch-fork or sickle, but not a nobleman/high ranker like a druid. Basically a sickle is a very poor weapon. Druids might use it for ceremony, but I sincerely doubt they'd ever go to war with it.

#7 Sort of agree. First, I don't understand how they came to the crescent shield. Second I'd not rather see a huge 2-handed war hammer (have u ever seen a 2-handed war hammer except in D&D and the Conan movie?) and even the 2-handed sword is problematic -- but might be liveable.
I agree they should have a standard Celtic shield.


-------------
To be honest I've not been overly critical of the Druid unit because I can stomach it better than the Ibero Bull-sh*t warriors as there is at least some basis for them.

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-24-2004, 17:09
After some talk with a few other boardmembers, I am going to bite on that one too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

1/ Well, hey, there were Monks and No Dachi units in STW, and as far as I know that's pretty much as wrong as Druid units.
Does not make Druid good, just as good as in any other CA game so far http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

From that standpoint I have no issue with Druid as a unit.

But I'd like to add a point. I am concerned that Druid would also damage game balance a bit. In another topic Mitch was concerned that morale boost could be damaging.

Well it may not be the worse; without the druid we got so far the basis for a good Rock Paper Scissor system;
Elephants trample roman legions.
Flaming pigs rout Elephants.
Roman legions eat pigs for dinner.

The problem is that, with their natural animal control ability,duirds will be able to control two of the three elements of the RPS system. And that's bad for game balance.
A legion / druid army will be able to control all the RPS.

In campaign it's going to be a problem too, I guess that druids are Briton only, so we got a faction balance problem on top of the RPS problem.

I hope that CA will make the druids available for all factions. Probably as mercenaries http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif . That way I'll be able to buy them as Egyptian http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif .

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

Louis,

rasoforos
06-24-2004, 17:20
So , more or less , since there is no clear proof that the druids would not fight , then they MUST have been fighting....with a sickle.
This unbeatable logic of course opens the way for flaming pigs , pharaoh archers , Asterix , Obelix , the smurfs , Azriel , me you and the special Hellenistic electronic warfare hacker squad who emptied the Persian Kings Bank accounts to fund Alexander's army when he fought against the Protoss in the Starcraft universe...since its not mentioned otherwise then it must be reality.

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

RisingSun
06-24-2004, 17:26
Finally, somebody understands CA It's about time.

Steppe Merc
06-24-2004, 17:36
Wouldn't we also have to give him a droopy celtic stach?

Oleander Ardens
06-24-2004, 17:46
About the moral boost:

I think giving it this specific ability is one, if not the best way to implement Druidic Warriors in RTW. I too would like to see some other weapon than the Sickle - a symbolic weapon like a warhammer or a large sword may well fit in nicely.

Cheers

OA

Kraxis
06-24-2004, 17:49
rasoforos, I take it you can't believe the druids were fighting at all???

Your argument (well rather your irony) would fit if there wasn't any indirect references, such as the lore, or those tribal leaders.

rasoforos
06-24-2004, 18:06
Kraxis , please take my post as a humorous attempt , i was trying to summarise the whole 'sceptic; position in one paragraph. :)
What i am saying though is that i seriously doubt druids had an active fighting role as a fighting unit of its own. True , some of them would propably participate in fights (like some priests today join the army in case of war) but i fail to see how units made of druids fighting with sickles has anything to do with realism. (like the mentioned priests who joined the war forming a unit of their own and bludgeoning people to death with crucifixes).
There may even have been a tribe of fighter druids somewhere but to fill the game with druid armies is a huge step over the line between history and fantasy.

ah_dut
06-24-2004, 20:59
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ June 24 2004,19:09)]1/ Well, hey, there were Monks and No Dachi units in STW, and as far as I know that's pretty much as wrong as Druid units.
Does not make Druid good, just as good as in any other CA game so far http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
monks and No dachi were real units in combat, druids were not, (in their currnent frankinstein sate)

Kraxis
06-25-2004, 00:09
Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ June 24 2004,14:59)]monks and No dachi were real units in combat, druids were not, (in their currnent frankinstein sate)
No... No-Dachis were out of fashion and in general not used. If used the No-Dachiman was supported by a few spearmen, and that unit in turn supported one or two mounted warriors... Yes, very accurate to make them all into specific units. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

The Monks were basically just Buddhists who fought. And many were just ordinary men, or even generals, like a specific general of the Takeda clan (his name had escaped me now). The ones the Monks of STW are based upon, are the Ikko-Ikki of the sacred mountain temple. They joined forces with the local peasants and were indeed quite powerful, but not because they were great fighters or something like that. They were innovative, and they employed new weapons to great effect, and since they were not Samurai they had little regard to honour, they cared more for living. But even they fought in mixed groups of monks and peasants as there was hardly any difference in their abilities.

The only really reliable thing about the Monks is how they look (white and with a white headcloth-thingy).

Sir Moody
06-25-2004, 00:12
they have chosen to make them a Unit as making them anything else is hard to impliment and would end in annoyance for players - I expect the unit will be of simmiliar size to the Royal Guards in MTW and they will act as a moral booster like the Commander so you can plug the morale gaps in your lines


and guyz re-read the guyz post when talking about the Sythe sword - he says that while they used it in cermonies it would be more likly they would use a longsword or 2 handed sword in combat due to their high status in celtic society so he agrees with u


good post overall gives CA some good pointers

1) Lengthen the Cloak
2) Give them a normal longsword
3) Dump the moon shield

Kraxis
06-25-2004, 00:25
Quote[/b] (Sir Moody @ June 24 2004,18:12)]1) Lengthen the Cloak
2) Give them a normal longsword
3) Dump the moon shield
Can't agree more...

I can't see why it is so bad to have Druid units when we can accept units of all other kinds when there wasn't any of them. Most specifically the Shogun units, but also many of the Muslim units and the Catholic MAA and Sergeants (one big lump often).

Rosacrux
06-25-2004, 07:26
Rasoforos,

I love you man... if you were a broad (and if I wasn't a married man) I'd ask you to marry me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Peeps, please stop the vain efforts to support CA - I don't get it, how the heck can you compare the clownish attempt to an invented unit (Druids) to the compromise of the Ikko-Ikki interpretation (fighting monks) in STW.

Monks in Japan have had more than an active force in fight and they were indeed very potent warriors. OTOH, the only fighting a Druid would ever see, was that to ascend his status (like in-tribe quarrels - something like the cutthroat corporate civil wars, if you know what I mean http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).

PSYCHO
06-25-2004, 08:30
Quote[/b] ]“What i am saying though is that i seriously doubt druids had an active fighting role as a fighting unit of its own” - Rasoforos

Duly noted, but as mention previously, there really isn’t any viable alternative that doesn’t stuff up the game.



Quote[/b] ]“to fill the game with druid armies is a huge step over the line between history and fantasy” - Rasoforos

A) It is no more a ‘step over the line’ than filling the game with Praetorian Guards..and we all know some peeps will try that. What’s the difference?
B) Whilst TW is about the historical ‘what-ifs’ I’d be surprised if CA enabled circumstances where-by a player could field hordes of the ‘elite’ units, so the whole argument is rather mute IMHO.



Quote[/b] ]“Rasoforos, I love you man... if you were a broad (and if I wasn't a married man) I'd ask you to marry me” – Rosacrux

Huh ? ..so you could then be married Lesbians ??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif Can I watch? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif



Quote[/b] ]“how the heck can you compare the clownish attempt to an invented unit (Druids) … the only fighting a Druid would ever see, was that to ascend his status - Rosacrux


You know this isn’t correct Rosa…and if you don’t, you should by now with all the info being flung about the place.



Quote[/b] ]I too would like to see some other weapon than the Sickle - a symbolic weapon like a warhammer or a large sword may well fit in nicely. Oleander Ardens

Here here matee

Cheers

Mablung
06-25-2004, 09:04
Only way to include them IMO, is either the evuivalent of Hashishen (12 men) or as random unit leaders (only specific units). The 12 men unit idea of course is to satisfy CAs need to make this interesting for "mainstream gamers". With the unit leaders, perhaps they are slightly harder to kill as well?

Great info BTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Rosacrux
06-25-2004, 09:17
Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ June 25 2004,02:30)]Huh ? ..so you could then be married Lesbians ??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif Can I watch? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
ers
Silly kid, don't you know what Rosacrux stands for? GAH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

If you have any doubts about my manhood... well you can always visit Greece and ...err... experience the Greek way on your own http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif


Quote[/b] ]You know this isn’t correct Rosa…and if you don’t, you should by now with all the info being flung about the place.

Now, now, one sentence before you aknowledge that raso has right when he says druids never actually fought:


Quote[/b] ]Duly noted, but as mention previously, there really isn’t any viable alternative that doesn’t stuff up the game.

...and then you say I ain't right when stating the same?

You puzzle me, laddie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

rasoforos
06-25-2004, 09:25
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ June 25 2004,03:17)]If you have any doubts about my manhood... well you can always visit Greece and ...err... experience the Greek way on your own http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Rosa you are scaring the tourists away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Rosacrux
06-25-2004, 10:15
Bah, no tourists from down under this year... they don't want Athens to get more succesful than Sydney http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif and for Aussies it would be a welcomed change from the usual sheep, no? I mean, if it's good enough for Brits, it's good enough for Aussies too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Seven.the.Hun
06-25-2004, 10:47
cool... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Alexander the Pretty Good
06-25-2004, 23:22
Quote[/b] ]Only way to include them IMO, is either the evuivalent of Hashishen (12 men) or as random unit leaders (only specific units). The 12 men unit idea of course is to satisfy CAs need to make this interesting for "mainstream gamers". With the unit leaders, perhaps they are slightly harder to kill as well?

Maybe there could be a small unit like "Druid with Bodyguards". One Druid is the leader, and the bodyguards are simply tough warriors or something. So there isn't too many of the Druids running around, and the bodyguard aspect could be explained by the Druid's rank and signifigance. Make them kind of like dismounted nobles from VI or something.

Anyway, if the unit doesn't turn up too much in the game, then I won't cry. AND CA fixes the looks.