Back to MTW after a year or so

[MalibuMan]

Hi everyone,

I'm back playing MTW after a year or so's abstinence from it and here. Stopped playing after I'd played VI sp campaign to death.

So I fired up the old sp campaign as Danes (no particular reason) and they get a lot of the viking units from VI While cool, does this not make them a little powerful early on? Huscarles after only a swordsmith, armourer and royal palace...

Then again I always thought they were a hard faction before so I suppose this evens it out a bit

Opinions?

p.s. just dl-ed patch - are there any major changes? Do people prefer pre- or post-patch?

Cheers

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (MalibuMan @ April 17 2004,05:51)]Hi everyone,

I'm back playing MTW after a year or so's abstinence from it and here. Stopped playing after I'd played VI sp campaign to death.

So I fired up the old sp campaign as Danes (no particular reason) and they get a lot of the viking units from VI While cool, does this not make them a little powerful early on? Huscarles after only a swordsmith, armourer and royal palace...

Then again I always thought they were a hard faction before so I suppose this evens it out a bit

Opinions?

p.s. just dl-ed patch - are there any major changes? Do people prefer pre- or post-patch?

Cheers
Welcome back MalibuMan,

The Danes are very poerful on early so use it while you can since after 1205AD you can only build standard units.
Defenitely go with post-patch since it makes the game far better - install it

[JAG]

Post-patch for me, and yes the Danes are good early on, thats why if I am playing a nation close to them in the globe - Germans, England, France etc - I try and take over Denmark asap. Helps you aswell as them ;x

[Bhruic]

Yeah, it's worth noting that it's not the Danes that are powerful, it's the territory they occupy. Anyone else can take their province (as well as Norway/Sweden) and crank out the Huscarles.

Bh

[katank]

that's true.

however, if you are human Dane player, you beat any other faction to these territories and you have a nice 1 province border to guard.

It's funny how as just about any faction, I can beat the AI Dane to Sweden and Norway through bribery.

Eggy Huscarle legions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[VikingHorde]

The danes are a nice faction. It has been a wile sens I last played them. Last I played, I was bussy playing the byz, but have not played for a month+. I use most my time on my MOD, but allmost finished now. Can't wait to get back in action. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Lord Ovaat]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif Did that get everyone's attention? Good. You guys are talking about a post and a pre patch. What's the scoop. I've got VI with the 2.1 (I think) patch. Is there another, other than the mods?

PS: Since this is a legitimate question, you guys can't accuse me of spamming this one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MalibuMan]

Nah it's the 2.1 patch I'm talking about, it's just that I've been away from MTW so long that it was new to me

[andrewt]

I had fun with the Danes. They start with only one territory so it takes longer to get them started with a navy and a good economic base to start conquering other people. I got Steppe Heavy Cavalry later with them compared to when I was using the Hungarians.

In the end, my army was composed of Moldavia constantly pumping out Avar Nobles, Chernigov and Khazar constantly pumping out Steppe Heavy Cavalry and Sweden, Norway and Denmark all pumping out Huscarles. Huscarles are very powerful. When I first got them, I made such quick work of the Boyars

[nightcrawlerblue]

I only have MTW 1.1 The Danes are hard if you play without extensive sea trading.

I started a game and after taking Sweden I gathered up my forces then attacked the Germans. I blasted away and through several hard battles I had managed to take 2 provinces. I went after another but realizing I couldn't hold it I retreated (after putting taxes on high) leaving the rebels to rip apart the German forces. By diong this on a critical province I created a choke point so now the Germans have only one province to attack from. I continued attacking until their army got bigger than mine then made peace. I was running out of money and had to disband all spearmen in my army. So far my game without trading has gone well.

[Lord Ovaat]

Thanks for response, MALIBU MAN. For awhile, I thought I'd have to learn the game all over again. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (andrewt @ April 18 2004,10:26)]In the end, my army was composed of Moldavia constantly pumping out Avar Nobles, Chernigov and Khazar constantly pumping out Steppe Heavy Cavalry and Sweden, Norway and Denmark all pumping out Huscarles. Huscarles are very powerful. When I first got them, I made such quick work of the Boyars
I just love those Avar Nobles, Steppe Heavy Cavalry and Huscarles. Those units are very cool. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ April 17 2004,14:44)]
Quote[/b] (MalibuMan @ April 17 2004,05:51)]Hi everyone,

I'm back playing MTW after a year or so's abstinence from it and here. Stopped playing after I'd played VI sp campaign to death.

So I fired up the old sp campaign as Danes (no particular reason) and they get a lot of the viking units from VI While cool, does this not make them a little powerful early on? Huscarles after only a swordsmith, armourer and royal palace...

Then again I always thought they were a hard faction before so I suppose this evens it out a bit

Opinions?

p.s. just dl-ed patch - are there any major changes? Do people prefer pre- or post-patch?

Cheers
Welcome back MalibuMan,

The Danes are very poerful on early so use it while you can since after 1205AD you can only build standard units.
Defenitely go with post-patch since it makes the game far better - install it
Oh c'mon. powerfull in ealry. Those vikings get their ass kicked starting from 1120, when the other faction manage to get FMAA.

[katank]

not really.

u spam them from a fort and the valor bonused ones from norway beat FMAA.

now huscarles are a different matter.

they own everything. (or just about)

[VikingHorde]

Quote[/b] (katank @ April 18 2004,22:53)]not really.

u spam them from a fort and the valor bonused ones from norway beat FMAA.

now huscarles are a different matter.

they own everything. (or just about)
and vikings have bonus vs. armour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[andrewt]

There are only two infantry units that are more powerful than huscarles; varangian guard and janissary heavy. Janissary heavy is unavailable until high. Varangian guard is just a huscarle with an additional point of defense and armor but needs castle level and takes 2 turns to build on normal.

I conquered Sweden and Norway ASAP and built a powerful trading empire while teching up to huscarles ASAP. They only need an armorer and a swordsmith, which means just keep level. I expanded east to the steppes so I could use steppe heavy cavalry and avar nobles to be my cavalry. That combination was unstoppable in early. I actually managed to conquer everything before the high period.

[katank]

don't forget that in the SP campaign, the armourer req for huscarles means that it has identical stats to varangians

JHI have even more insane reqs than varangs. In short, nothing beat huscarles in terms of raw power and availability.

BTW, I believe huscarles with 1 armor actually beat vanilla JHI.

[son of spam]

I wonder if CA anticipated this, or if someone was just drunk at the office and thought "How cool would it be to make S*itloads of OP units available to everyone?"

[katank]

I think they were drunk.

huscarles are sooo OP it's not even funny.

I can always beat the Danes to Sweden and Norway, which is messed up and gives me a huge advantage.

[MalibuMan]

Yeah, they do seem pretty damn powerful... however I had a battle where I took over Norway (I leave it much later than Sweden because it's not economically useful until you've already established your trade network), and the defenders were 6 units of vanilla vikings (including the ones that had fled from Sweden years back). I had 6 units of Huscarles, including a 3 star general, so I just thought - nothing fancy - one on one frontal assault. My Huscarles won of course, but they took much heavier casualties than expected - on average one third of each unit died. That's still pretty good of course, but I expected better.

Btw, what are gallowglasses like vs huscarles if they get the charge?

[andrewt]

I think they wanted to encourage people to grab certain territories. Territory specific units pre-VI weren't very powerful, aside from Jinetes and Armenian Heavy Cavalry.

Besides, Huscarles have competition from Avar Nobles in the most overpowered category. Avar only requires horse breeder and armorer. It also takes only 14 turns and 1,400 florins after that to upgrade their valor. Their support cost is like medium cavalry even though they are heavy cavalry like feudal and chivalric knights.

Another is Steppe Heavy Cavalry who require armor and horse breeders' guild (manual says master but this isn't the case in game). They are very powerful in melee and have bows.

If you mod Novgorod to be playable in early, they have druzhina cavalry, a 60-unit cavalry that can be dismounted anytime to make feudal foot knights. They're not too overpowered but they aren't bad either.

Szekely are quite powerful, too, though only Hungary can build them. Their requirements are even less. Hungary starts out with the ability to make them. You only need fort, 20% farmland, horse farmer and horse breeder so that only takes 12 years from scratch.

[MalibuMan]

Quote[/b] (andrewt @ April 19 2004,02:38)]I think they wanted to encourage people to grab certain territories. Territory specific units pre-VI weren't very powerful, aside from Jinetes and Armenian Heavy Cavalry.
I take your point in general, but can I just say: Gallowglasses Pretty damn good for a territory specific if you ask me, and they were around before VI. Also, territory specific units can be better than they seem in practice because often if they can only be trained in one province (e.g. gallows) then that province gives them a valour bonus. What are those archers from somewhere around italy as well? Genoese? Not that powerful I suppose but can be very useful. And Lithuanian cavalry isn't to be sneezed at either...

[andrewt]

The reason people say these units are really good is that you get them very early compared to units of similar power. For Gallowglasses, the valor bonus makes them more powerful than FMAA in the campaign mode, but it takes much longer to get them. You need to invade them by sea and have a port to use them elsewhere. At the same time, their power is just around those of comparable infantry during that time. They're good, but not as good as the others.

Huscarles, on the other hand, can be gotten faster if you play the Danes or HRE. Even if you need to invade these countries by sea, they only need an armorer more than a Gallowglass. Thus, you will get them much earlier than comparable units such as Varangian Guard and JHI.

For the cavalry, Lithunian cavalry have insane requirements. By the time you can tech up to them, Chivalric Knights are almost available, and that's if you conquer Lithunia early. I'd rather have Feudal Knights than them. Avar Nobles, however, are just as powerful as Feudal Knights and have much lower requirements. They also have a very low support cost.

Same thing applies to Szekely and Steppe Heavy Cavalry. They're a little better than specialized units like Faris, Mamluk Horse Archers and Byzantine Cavalry. However, their requirements are much lower.

[MalibuMan]

I've never actually trained my own Lith cavalry - I just use the ones I get when I bribe Lithuania (can you tell I usually concentrate on trade early on?) - what do they require?

[katank]

the lith cav requires master horse breeder, sword guild, and armourer guild.

they are good light cav but the reqs require 2 citadel level buildings and thus not worth it.

I reduced each of those by 1 level through modding to make them even useable.

BTW, huscarles would take out gallows but with even greater casualties compared to against the vikings.

the reason for this is the armor piercing attack for both gallows and vikings.

avar nobles are more overpowered than huscarles IIRC due to the crazy low comparative support.

60 florins for heavy cav that can beat everything in early is just wrong.

huscarles are almost as strong but not that badly outperform same unit type troops like gallows etc. and varangians can match them with ok build reqs.

[andrewt]

A huscarle is basically a varangian with one less armor and defense. The reason they're better is because you can get huscarles much earlier than the varangian and they don't require 2 turns per unit. Also, if you rush to them both like I do and don't build other buildings in the provinces, they actually start out with the same strength since huscarles require an armorer while varangian don't.

Avar nobles actually have around the same strength as feudal knights. The difference is that they have 60 support, feudal has 105 while chivalric has 85. What makes them really powerful for me is that they only require an armorer and a horse breeder. They also don't require any building lines that don't give them stat bonuses.

[MalibuMan]

Yeah, I noticed that they've at least made Huscarles rightfully expensive to support (75). That can kill you in the early years as the Danes (until you've got trade going...).

If you capture Ireland post-VI, can you build Bonnachts etc. as well as Gallows?

[katank]

well, you get gallows and kerns if you are catholic.

no bonnachts or dartmen although it's very easy to port them from viking map.

just select their entries in the VI unit prod file and append to end of crusader file then make adjustments using gnome to correct various references which may not apply.