Pulling a Berlin

[Oaty]

So what is the whole story behind pulling a Berlin. I know that the Russians had surrounded Berlin before assaulting the city and not just by a few miles but going pretty far west in effect cutting off all access to the other allies of having any acces to Berlin. The other thing that came to mind is the fact that when the allies had reached Germany towards the end of the war, the German soldiers were not disarmed when they were marched to there POW camps or whereever they wer marching them too, because I remember seeing pictures of U.S. Jeeps driving right along side of 1000's of armed German soldiers marching to there destination. I've seen the movie Patton and I remember a part where Patton had got a bit of a chewing out for not disbanding the soldiers that have surrendered and I believe he said a line like they will be needed for the war against Russia.

This Makes me kind of wonder what was going on politically and how much the German generals knew, and if there was some kind of pep talk with the soldiers coming from the general telling them that Eastern Germany has been lost to the Russians and are making it a part of Russia wich is maybe why the Germans surrendered unarmed. Also I have read that there were Allied POW's executed by the Russians on the eastern front. I don't know if that was just a 1 case event or common occurrence as if it was being done in mass and it had gotten out to the public, there could have been a big outcry to take it all the way to Moscow, wich some generals would have been more than willing to do.

Now I don't know a whole lot of how bad it politically was but and what all what was going but I'm guessing The Russians seeing what was going on towards the end having to face Germans again, then the polish and every country against them as they were freed. I'm sure the main reason that the Russians gave up half of Berlin was in hopes of putting water on the fire and was just enough to allow them to put down an Iron Crtain on eastern europe.

So it kind of makes me wonder what events would have unfolded if Russia had never given up half of Berlin

[spmetla]

What are you referring to? The Battle of Berlin in 1945 or the Berlin Airlift? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif And what is the question your asking? Is this just a what if thread? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Crimson Castle]

Given halfa chance the Soviets would have taken over the whole of Europe. What they overran they took over ie most of Eastern Europe.

Some of the allied generals realized that the "next war" would be with the Soviets. Even Hitler forcasted it. But thanks to cooler heads and the threat of nuclear anniliation, there has been no - major -war between the West and East in Europe. Sure small individual battles took place here and there - but the big powers have not fought each other for a generation. And hopefully, by 2045 we can celebrate one hundred of peace in Europe.

[mercian billman]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ April 23 2004,21:10)]And hopefully, by 2045 we can celebrate one hundred of peace in Europe.
What about the Balkans? It would be nice though to celebrate 100 years without a major European war though.

[spmetla]

Apparently the balkans don't count. Nor the Hungarians that rose against the Soviets.

[bighairyman]

if i'm correct, there were 2 soviet armies competing to take Berlin, and the Soviets lost tens of thousands of men taking Berlin, it should have been alot less if they didn't rush.

If Allied soldiers weren't in western Europe, the Soviets wouldn't have taken the rest of Europe, by the time they took Berlin, they were too exhausted and need to regroup, and they didn't have the power to cross into France and Italy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

[Crimson Castle]

I said major conflicts - the murder of the Prague Spring movement, the trampling of Hungry by Soviet forces, Afganistan, the Balkans were horrible but at least we didn't have WWIII. Who knows - hopefully the Soviets and the rest of Europe can cooperate together for a change.

[Sulla]

Sovjet union doesnt exist anymore. Its russia and a whole lot of other smaller countries.

Well for a fact, Stalin pushed his general's to the limit. (and the general's the men). And, for a reason, the russian militairy leaders where scared to death of Stalin, and his pet dog Beria. Remember that Stalin "purified" his officer corps prior to world war II (Stupid Stupid Stupid) Not only did he sack or kill 10 of his 12 army leaders, also he Sacked/send of to siberia/murdered 40.000 of his 80.000 officer's.

Iv been reading some books about the attack on Berlin, and there where several occasions where one army fired it's artillery directly on the other (both russian). Also, Stalin wanted to seal of Berlin completely, not only to surround the capital, but to block the US/French/UK/Canadian army's.

Sovjet doctrine never cared much for human life. Mass combat. Also, sending so many Tank's into the city wasnt the smartest thing to do. Bombing and shooting it to shit also not (creating defendable positions). But they were certainly in a rush to capture the capital. Both sides fought with such anger (some where fighting for allready 3 years, imagine what that does to your sanity) the casualty's where terrible. The germans where in fact scared to death of the russians. They knew what they did in Russia, and also knew they would get it back (Many german soldiers who returned from the eastern front, wounded or on leave, never said anything about german method's untill late in the war, when defeat was "imminent", Can you imagine the terror of the german population). Therefore many of the germans where only fighting for one thing. Delay the Russians so they could surrender to the Ally's.

Standard Russian procedure for captured SS troops was execution. Now you can say, well can you blame them? But what happens to a man, that doesnt have any choise but fight?

On one occasion (got it out of a book) Russian soldiers let a german soldier play the piano (he was a good player). They told him as long as he was playing they wouldnt shoot him. He lived for another 24 hours orso, untill he stopped, totally exhausted. You can guess what happened.

Remember many of the german soldiers at that time where maybe 17 years old, often younger, or 35 and older. They probably where only conscripted a while before that. The russians wanted revenge, and nothing could stop that. The germans didnt have a choise but fight. Hell on earth http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Sulla]

In addition:

For the Battle of Berlin both sides mustered the following:

Germany Soldiers 1,000,000 Artillery 10,400
Tanks 1,500 Aircraft 3,300
Russia Soldiers 2,500,000 Artillery 41,600
Tanks 6,250 Aircraft 7,500


Losses (So far I know)

Germany Soldiers (dead) 150.000

Russia Soldiers (dead) 80.000 Tanks 2.000
Soldiers (wounded/mia) 275.000

So Germans took 15% Casualty (of total force, and this is dead), not accounting for wounded and missing

Russians took around 13 % casualty dead/wounded/missing

That is HUGE. (Over the course of 2 month's)