Castle defence

[Daevyll]

Yesterday I had to defend one of my castles (MedMod, Aragon, early, hard) from a huge Egyptian army.
The enemy numbered 1800 or so, mostly good troops like Mamluk cavalry and Arab Infantry. Led by a 2-star general.

My own forces consisted of about 200 men, all in pretty depleted units. 18 Galician bowmen here, 29 spearmen there, 37 Arab infantry (bribed) etcetera, you know the drill.
A 3-star general accompanied them.

I was defending Tunisia, which had a Castle with Catapult towers.

The carnage was incredible. The enemy never even made it past my first gate, my brave men held the gate against all comers and eventually drove the enemy off.

I lost 110 men in battle, the enemy lost 240 to my troops.
However, the incessant arrows, boiling oil and boulders meant that when I checked the enemy army on the strategic map afterwards they had lost a staggering 1400 of theri 1800 men in this siege... which got them nothing.

My troops held out for another year of besieging, and the next year an 800-strong relief force rescued them :)


I really do love defending sieges.

[Cazbol]

Ah... yes. The rare magic moments when you get to defend a castle is truly something to remember. I've only had 3 such defences but only won one of them. The two lost ones were really hopeless from the start but still a lot of fun.

[VikingHorde]

Yes, it is very cool. I have not defended a castle meny time, but it is great fun when it happens.

[lancer63]

The way the AI positions its artillery sucks all over the place. No aparent coordination in the attack; they always attack the most dificult side specially if there's a cliff around.
I tried the AI style on a walled keep as the Polish. 2 cats, several vanilla spear and slav warrior units, 2 militia sergeants, 2 FMAAs, 1 mounted x bow and 1 RK 2 star general. The enemy only had 1 slav warrior unit, 1 understrenght mounted x-bow and a motley assortment of less than 10 men units. Yet they gave me the whipping of my life. The cats only managed to break the yard gate and damage the keep one before they were finished by a hail of arrows from the walls.
Sent the spears and slavs. to storm the castle, but were stopped cold by a few spearmen and the enemy's own SWs. My troops must have broken at least 3 times before I gave the command to withdraw losing more than 350 men. Then I reloaded the game and restarted the siege using the very same units as before. This time I sued me own tactics. I left the front unmolested and concentrated my firepower on the right wing of the keep (my left). Both cats opened up on the spot where the outer an inner walls meet. After both walls were down, the same formation went in. Only this time they didn't need any reinforcements and the enemy was dispatched with less than 200 casualties on my side.
I too like to defend in well equiped castles. Pity the AI is at its worst there. It loses too many men unecesarily.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (lancer63 @ April 19 2004,12:43)]I tried the AI style on a walled keep as the Polish. 2 cats, several vanilla spear and slav warrior units, 2 militia sergeants, 2 FMAAs, 1 mounted x bow and 1 RK 2 star general. The enemy only had 1 slav warrior unit, 1 understrenght mounted x-bow and a motley assortment of less than 10 men units. Yet they gave me the whipping of my life. The cats only managed to break the yard gate and damage the keep one before they were finished by a hail of arrows from the walls.
i suspect, the walls are too weak in the game... wasn't it the case in medieval castles that their gates used to be the weakest point? in the game it's different. it seems, the AI tactic is to storm the gates since it is SUPPOSED to be the weakest link. nevertheless, by game design, the wall is the right target...

[andrewt]

The reason I don't use my artillery on the gate is that when you destroy a wall, the wall gets destroyed giving you a good opening. Destroy the gate and it just opens, giving you a very small opening. If the gate gets destroyed instead of just being opened, I'd attack it.

[makkyo]

sssooooo easy.....

[son of spam]

Actually, the gates were paradoxically the strongest position of the castle in the medieval era. The gatehouses had all sorts of nasty tricks inside(arrow holes, murder holes). Plus, if the enemy went through the gate, you knew exactly how and where they would enter the inner courtyard, so you could prepare for them. The walls were comparatively much weaker.

The gates indeed used to be the weakest portion, but after those crazy medieval monks/engineers got done with them... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katank]

yeah, there are also trap doors etc. that made the gatehouse really hard to crack.

this is portrayed well in the boiling oil and stuff.

still, I think that having stronger walls would be better. It's waaay too easy to hitt he wall.

BTW, basic forts, bring 6+ archers and the wall goes down in a few shots.

fortress defense against the horde is soooooo fun.

[Wishazu]

if you wanna play a campaign where u have to defend lots of castles then play as the byz on expert and build up defences in georgia and surrounding provinces, you`ll be gauranteed at least a couple of sieges to fight when the mongs show up. i killed the king in a siege in the second turn they were on the map once and wiped out the faction for good.

[katank]

yep. defending with gold armored varangian is also fun.

you could try using huscarles from sweden if you are any other faction. pretty much the same. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I managed to actually fend of 22k horde once with my golden varangians. it was sweet.

[Lord Godfrey]

I had a very cheesy siege victory one time when I had a calvary group run through the breach the enemy created. They didn't have any calvary so I just ran around the battlefield until time expired. I didn't plan it that way and wasn't sure what would happen, but I did win the battle. As I said at the beginning - very cheesy.

[mfberg]

Walls should be a little more difficult to get through after breaking, stone ones should be treated like forest for cavalry. It is difficult to ride in a straight line through broken chunks of wall, undestroyed foundations and pits formed by trebuchet shot.

Give me sappers, I want tunnels filled with combustibles collapsing as their supports burn out bringing down large sections of wall.

mfberg

[Nigel]

Pitty we cant have a moat.

I would guess that in the olden days it often was the moat around ths castle which would make attackers think of storming the gate (where the moat would be most narrow or even have a bridge) rather than just going through the wall.

[lancer63]

Now that you mention it guys we can't fly in diseased cattle or severed prisoner heads. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I agree it takes a lot of the fun out of being a bloodthirsty medieval warlord. But, as someone said way before me, that is the way the TW world is. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[RisingSun]

Yes, I think all the ditches and mottes were what made people want to attack the gate. This could only be accomplished with the stakes in the ground like NTW has accomplished.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I have a more amazing story.
Once I was defending Britanny against a full stack of French Cavalry, Men-at-Arms, and crossbows. I had 1 ManatArms, 1Swiss Halberdier, 2 bowmen, 36 fanatics, 52 pikemen, 40 lancers, 3 spearmen, and 2 hobiliars. thats about 134 men. It was a feild battle, and I set my 1 men units, along with my fanatics ahead, and attacked. Then, once they were dead, I sent in the Pikes, and Lancers, and slaughtered them. I lost 30 men, they lost 800+ men. I still have the replay if anyone wants it.
-Capo

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
1 depleted XBows
1 depleted Otto. Inf.
1 full Muw. FS.
1 Pronoiai A. (bribed)

vs.

1 full and 1 >half Mongol HC
2 Mongol Warriors.

Victory with no single man lost (except a few of the PA situated badly). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
_

[Court Jester]

Is there any way to increase the probability of a castle defence? Are there certain tactics you can use that makes it more likely the AI will assault your castle?

I've been playing MTW for quite a while but I've never had the chance to defend a castle. The AI always waits it out (my fleeing armies -- and therefore the resulting garrisons -- have been too big I suppose?) (if it matters, I play at hard, not expert)

[katank]

well, they do like overwhelming advantages to assault. I think at least 2-3:1 numerical advantage and troops grade superiority.

I've gotten the horde to assault my 500 strong garrison of huscarles.

then again, RKs are overrated so I had the pope, 1 spear, and 1 UM assault my 1 feudal sarge in Naples.

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
I have observed that they assault when the siege will take long. Sounds logical.
_

[lancer63]

Aye, and after the VI patch I've experienced a significant increase in castle storming from the AI. Coincidence or not I like it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[katank]

well, I think the AI is programmed to take advantage of the game engine and hence they now storm as otherwise their units can take attrit damage.

BTW, cheesy tactic if they have huge army and wants to assault is to have an unit attack from a neighboring province and retreat without combat.

the result is that the enemy assault is canceled and they take more attrit damage.

when you repeat this enough, their once glorious army shall be attrited to shambles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Oaty]

My favorite is when its getting close to the end of the game and you have a wooden fort under siege 15 mangonels and a general

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (oaty @ April 28 2004,12:42)]My favorite is when its getting close to the end of the game and you have a wooden fort under siege 15 mangonels and a general
true, but what if you run out of ammo and they're still there? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif Mangonels have bad aim. This happened to me, and since their general was high level and mine low, that was the end of that besieging army.

[katank]

GAH use 15 archers to bring em down GAH

[Oaty]

Well usually I do run out of ammo but laugh at the fact there 200 men have been decimated down to 10 or less and almost all my generals are a high class of cavalry So they can quick run in and mop up. Second the force that put that garrison under siege can be quickly be called in as reenforcements to mop up if it looks to risky for my general to the job but has never occcurred.

For optimum performance I set the siege weopons close and make sure they are lined so they can hit the first wall the inner keep and the opposite wall and put them at fire at will and very quickly the walls and the inner keep fall from missed shots. The sad part is occassionally the A.I will come out and attack the siege weapons but only after a wall has been knocked down.

Cheesy tactic in a way but in all actuallity the whole map is won by the point I can have 15 siege weapons assaulting a fort due to the fact that my topend troops are running around with silver armour and weapons, not too many have the golden upgrade but what does the comp have against this, there frontline troops all vary from no armour to a the few with silver and maybe a few lucky ones with a weapon upgrade. And lets see who is earning all the valour, the siege weapons. Well the high valour siege weapons are nearly worthless as compared to my infantry who could be gaining all the valour with just a few more losses making them even tougher in battle, so in a way I am cheating myself in this tactic but for the entertainment valu I do it.

[squippy]

If theres one thing I really, really, really want in castle defenses it is a sally port. The absence undermines the realism to some extent, and tactical flexibility greatly.

[Oaty]

Would you mind telling me what a sallyport is

[InsaneApache]

A sallyport is a secret exit from the castle from which the beseiged troops can 'sallyforth' and attack seige engines etc etc.......hope that helps
InsaneApache

[Haethurn]

Castle defence is just wonderful. Most of the time they charge a 1000-man army up a steep hill and then proceed to ignore the gap that their artillery made in my walls and charge into a ballista tower for fifteen minutes, while the arrows from all of my towers slowly kills them off.

It's great, especially when you only have about five individual peasants defending the castle.

[Oaty]

Ewwwwwww you mean a sallyport is a backdoor entry sounds a bit disgusting to me