Roman Influence on Medieval armour

[NormanPain]

How much Influence did Romans have on medieval armour...it doesnt seem like much...the romans had pretty advanced plate armour(Segmentum Lorica or something like that)...what happened to it and why did it appear in the dark ages...I mean you would expect at least the byzantines to use something similar but even they reverted to chain and scale maile which brings me to another question...do any of you have any facts about which is better, chain or scale? I think the main disadvantage to scale maile is that if you stabbed up under the scales it probably went through and killed the user...whereas chain maile with the proper padding underneath worked pretty well until those blessed longbows came along. Anyways...I was just wondering if any of you had any thoughts or comments on this. I look forwards to your replies...may you all have a good day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Basil II]

greetings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

you know i was wondering the same thing not too long ago...as effective as the lorica segmentata was, why didnt anyone run with it? everyone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong (i'm by no means a well learned historian) but mail proved to have more advantages. flexability, for one. plate armor tended to be more restricting whereas mail offered nearly as much protection (the rings and padding would absorb the shock of oncomming blows throughout the mail, kinda like primitive kevlar vests, limiting the damage) but offered a hell of a lot more movement and comfort to the soldier.

oh and yeah, that was a major drawback to scale, upperstabs as well as straight on thrusts would mean youre screwed (mail had the same drawback at times).

the byzantines came to use an armour called lamellar, kind of like a plate-scale hybrid. what they would do was instead of overlapping scales, they would tightly sew them side by side, making them stab proof in a way.

again, everyone feel free to correct me on any or every point made. hope this makes sense.

pax

[NormanPain]

For a soldier to choose comfort over protection isnt exactly wise. The Sementata(Thank you for correcting me, I appologize for not remembering its real name, at least you got what I meant right?)was fairly flexible because of the way it was made...for some reason in the middle ages the chose just solid plates with limited flexibility..although if you have ever been to a medieval or renaissaince fair you will find that some suits of armour are quite flexible when you put them on. French armour seems to be quite restricting compared to german and british forms. Though Im told the plate armour used to fight on foot is much less restrictive then that for horseback. So the Byzantines used something similar to a coat of plates? Interesting. Why didnt people mix armour...wearing kind of like a scale vest over chain maile in the dark ages...would have worked better and personally I wouldnt care how heavy things get Id much rather live then die, anyway, those suits of armour only weighed around 60 pounds...our modern infantry men carry much more then that. Chain with proper padding can actually stop most arrows as Ive seen from demonstrations, the longbow with bodkins arrows and crossbows kind of screws it over though.Anyway I hope to hear from you and other people soon...were romans first to use chain mail on a wide scale?

[Basil II]

heh, my last two cents :P ...

roman armour did in fact have a lotta influence on medieval armour, especially in the earlier dark ages. as fashions and combat situations changed over time, so did the style of the equipment until you have what you see in most medieval pictures n' whatnot.

for instance, the romans near the end of the empire used helmets with...well...showing you will be easier than explaining:

http://www.armae.com./antiquite/11antiquiteCadre.htm

direct link not working, it seems...click on the legion helmet and scroll down to the last of the roman helmets.

you can see how the cheek guards and tail plate can be switched out for more easily affordable and flexable mail ventails. and now i'll step down from my soap box http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

pax

[Basil II]

well comfort and mobility are quite essential to a soldier's performance, in my opinion. this is why muslims chose lighter, flexible armour so they didnt bake thier arses off in the desert sun, ya know? also military philosophy has an influence on armour used. western methods of warfare, in my opinion were more defensive (heavier armor, sword n' shield), while lighter armor, while giving lesser defence, offered a kick-ass offensive strategy (mongols, turks, n' all that jazz). i think the turks and other eastern countries grasped that concept of mixing mail and plates (and it looks cool as hell, i might add). also heavier armour didnt always equate to survival. heh the infantry and balistic weapons developed to counter later body armour simply turned knights into fancy tuna cans begging to be opened.

pax

[Basil II]

oh and yeah the romans were the first to mass produce mail. it was the celts who invented it, though.

[meravelha]

Indeed.
The gear the Normans were wearing at Hastings would not have looked out of place in a late Roman army (except for the kite shields).
The Romans gave up the [i]lorica segmentata[i] quite early on, opting either for chainmail or (for infantry) mostly no armour at all.

A small matter of expense I believe.
They were caught between rising violence both on the borders and internally and (because of that) falling tax receipts.
Still they managed to nearly double the size of the army until 1 adult male out of 15 was a conscript and had the brand to prove it :)

[Basil II]

yeah it all comes down to cost n' finance when equipping the army. i still cant grasp how the segmentata costed more than mail, though. i mean, all the armour consisted of was pounded out metal strips tied by leather in most cases...wouldnt shirts made of thousands upon thousands of little iron rings cost more? and dont forget to factor in the additional cost of time and painstaking labor to make a single shirt, ya know?

pax

Basil II

[Fanty]

The (western european. More or less what is catholic factions in the Game) medieval world bases on the Germanic peoples cultural influence that spread all over Europe during the Germanic Invasion.

To prevent missunderstandigs:
Germanic is NOT a synonym for German

*Germanic = Icelandic, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, German, Dutch....Franks, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Goth, Vandals, Lombards etc etc..... vikings...etc etc.

or short: bearded, lighthaired, axewielding brutes who used to pray to Norse gods before converting to christinity, usualy have round shields, longish houses and speak a descant of Proto-Germanic and pured out of the dark north, the Vagina Nationum (Scandinavia)

Around 200 BC, Scandinavia was stroke with a climate change, that made a lot of people jump into boats and arrive at the German coasts. Germany was back then settled by Celts.

The Germanic tribes pushed the Celts away into France and then were halted by the Romans. Trapped in what is now Germany.

The arrivers seemed ver primitive, wich is no wonder, remembering that they are refugies, arrived from Scandinavia a few decades ago and didnt want to stay but to reach the mediteranian sea. Lotsa sun and fun ya know? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

Meanwhile the palce filled up with new and even more new Germanic tribes, wich pushed and pushed and turned in circles.

In a place they dont know where to digg out metals, because they are complete new top the terrein they ran around like this:

http://www.michtoy.com/MTSCnewSite/figures_kits_folder/IlFuedoMinatures/54mm_folder/L5418.jpg

The spear did not use much iron. And so the spear was the standart weapon.
Different to the Germanic tribes wich stayed at home, these refugees had no kings and had been absolutely free and weared weapons (at home in sacandinavia weapons had been locked in peacetime and nly given out in wartime). with a pride, that they caried it all the time, giving them the name:
Ger = Spear
man = human
German = Spearhuman

Living in a democratic warriorsociety doesnt last long and strong warriors gathered followers, finaly leading into the Feudalsystem.

ok, now to the topic: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

beeing neighbours to the Romans and fighting as Roman auxilla, of course influenced them a lot.

They saw Roman gear. They buyed Roman gear. And finaly there was a need to fight Romans in this neat gear.

Weapons is all they are really interested in said Tacitus. No present they count as high as a presented weapon.

And a lot of Roman gear made its way into the dark forrests.
If we imagine the battle of Teutoburg forrest as naked wild men verus Roman legionairs, we are wrong. A survivor said: They thought like Romans think and carried Roman gear

Think like Romans think, is no miracle. The leader grew up in Rome. Had Roman citicenship and was member of the Roman amry in the rank of a Centurio.
The Romans nursed their own dead. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

But however, the new stuff doesnt really look too Roman.

The typical look of a Germanic Barbarian of the Invasion time looked more like this:

http://www.kaiserkurier.de/buchladen/media/kal_german.jpghttp://www.toysoldiers.cc/military%20books/osprey/Warrior%20Pages/Images/WAR17.jpg

The typical shape of their helmets.
And they actually had chainarmor:

Saxon Huscarl:
http://www.regia.org/images/Huscarl14.jpg

Not that much different from his brother the Frank:
http://members.aol.com/FantumTwo/ax850.jpg

or the Goth:
http://www.laminiaturists.org/Figures/SCAHMS/J%20Mascarilla%20Gothic%20Warrior%20M.jpg

Emperor Otto the Great (A Saxon) still looks similiar in the 10th century:

http://www.jop-kriegskunst.de/lechf/Otto.jpg


thats all very typical for the early medieval period.
IF there was Roman influence, it must be visible in these.

[NormanPain]

Hello all, wow this is getting more attention then expected, thank you for all the information, and the pictures. And Fanty, dont worry about going off topic to discuss history, I love history and have no problem with it. It is strange though that they always show the Germanic peoples attacking the romans in the teutonburg forest as being naked, that picture there looks well equipped enough to be a early medieval foot soldier...I can imagine the romans running into those germanic people, romans averaging 5'1 and the Barbarians often being much taller, must have been intimidating, they always talk about Rome being so superior, they may have been at first but from what I have read...they only did good fighting armies of people basically fighting with pitchforks, and whenever they did run into and organized army it took them quite a while to defeat them. I think when the Germans, Franks and Goths showed up looking like they do in those pictures, trained, armoured and armed...I think the Western Romans probably felt they were screwed...didnt the goths sack rome which lead to the decay of the west romans? Then of course you had your Huns in the east, who were finally stopped at the stalemate at the Catalaunian fields where 300,000 men died...they think is though the romans relied heavily on theodorics men there, and then when they were about done with the battle the shot theodoric with an arrow...I guess the romans thought he and his men did to well at the battle, possibly saw him as a future threat. Anyways I too am getting off subject...so before I bore you all to death I will end here for now. Good day all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[SicilianVespers]

I would have to disagree with the Germanic theory. I believe Scale and Chain mail came into general use thru contact with the Sarmatians. They were fully armored Catafracts. It was from the Sarmatians that the Romans adopted the Spangenhelms, etc.

See this link for a picture:

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/osp_img/titlecovers/S485XAL.JPG

[Fanty]

Hmm.

what do you mean?
That the Germanic peaple didnt adope chain and scale from Romans but from Sarmartians, when the Goth moved into southern Russia? And the Goth brought this back west to the other Germanic tribes?

Because its widely agreed that the Romans did learn chain armor aswell as the gladius from Celts (Romans used an other not as good sword before). Long before they ever met Germanic people or Samartians.

There is this theory that Germanic peoples came from the Russian steppes. But the Legends all point to Scandinavia.
Modern Genetic research proves the legends. Goth show definately Swedish Y-Chromosoms, while in the population of Germany are Norwegian Y-Chromosoms the dominant one. Showing that either Norwegians migrated in masses into Germany or from Germany to Norway. German DNA is closer to Norse one than to Danish wich seems strange since Danes are geographically closer) Except for bavarians, whos Y-Chromosoms link to Danmark (Pusheffect maybe. Pushed further south frm the Norse).

Hmm.
those Sarmatian Spangenhelms in the picture look allmost identical to Germanic ones. Conic with the Spanges for the cheeks.

Did Romans ever use a conical helm?

Because then is the question if Germanic people got the helm by contact with Sarmatians or from Romans who again got it from Sarmatians before.

Its also to explain, how this Helm went even to Scandinavia.
The possibly less forreign influenced Germanic region. Who remained in Germanic traditions unitl far into the middle ages. While all tribes who migrated south stand drooling before Rome and wanted to be like it. *scratch head*

[SicilianVespers]

Fanty,
No, I was referring to the Romans. The Romans did get chain mail from the celts, but Sarmatian military influence made it more fasionable.

What I am really saying here is the Romans were using Sarmatian type armors before the Goths came to the Roman frontier.

So for the Spangenhelm the Germans got it from the Romans, who got it from the Sarmatians.

[Basil II]

i always had the impression that they got the armour idea from the sarmations and the helms from the sassanid persians... anyone else think this? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif


pax

[SicilianVespers]

Quote[/b] (Basil II @ April 21 2004,15:28)]i always had the impression that they got the armour idea from the sarmations and the helms from the sassanid persians... anyone else think this? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif


pax
Are you sure you aren't thinking of the ridge helmet?

See the link below:

http://www.medievalrepro.com/Images/arthur1.gif

I am pretty sure the conical spangenhelm, was of Sarmatian origin.

[Basil II]

lol yeah for some reason i thought you guys were talking about the ridgers. i'm an idiot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

pax

[NormanPain]

Hey if anyone has any information on period armour feel free to post, pictures are really nice too I just want to keep this thread alive, it has been very informative and interesting thus far. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[SwordsMaster]

Hey, Basil, great link...I wonder ifyou can truly buy all that roman stuff...

Can you imagine someone coming to visit you and you have pieces of roman equipment all around?

That would be fun....And the text about Russel Crowes helmet is also quite interesting...

[Basil II]

SwordsMaster

lol trust me man if i had my way i'd have my room look like an imperial armory http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

if youre interested in getting some gear(or just wanna see more styles), check out

http://www.deepeeka.com/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp

they've got a bit bigger selection. it all should be under the 'swords and armour' section.

pax

[NormanPain]

Me too Basil...if I had my way, not only my room but my whole house would be like that..do you think chain maille curtains is to much though?

[Dunedin_dude]

Quote[/b] (Fanty @ April 21 2004,12:09)]Because its widely agreed that the Romans did learn chain armor aswell as the gladius from Celts (Romans used an other not as good sword before).
Interesting stuff.
Nice to know people are willing to delve into some of the history
The Celts that they got the gladius from were from modern-day Spain, and fought as mercenaries for the Carthagians - was the sword design from them, or was it Celtic?

[Basil II]

it was celtic design, i believe. the romans also got their earlier helmet designs from them as well (not sure if it was the spanish celts or not, though).

pax

[SicilianVespers]

Just some reference material, for anyone interested...

Lorica Segmentata = Laminated plate Armor
Lorica Squamata = Scale mail
Lorica Hamata = Chain mail

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Dunedin_dude @ April 24 2004,23:32)]
Quote[/b] (Fanty @ April 21 2004,12:09)]Because its widely agreed that the Romans did learn chain armor aswell as the gladius from Celts (Romans used an other not as good sword before).
Interesting stuff.
Nice to know people are willing to delve into some of the history
The Celts that they got the gladius from were from modern-day Spain, and fought as mercenaries for the Carthagians - was the sword design from them, or was it Celtic?
No. The Gladius was a sword of Celtiberian origin, exclusive to the Iberian Peninsula mixed tribes of Celts and Iberians. The Celts from other areas mostly used the Celtic longsword (specially the noblemen). In fact, the Romans original name for the Gladius, was Gladius Hispaniensis (Spanish Sword)

The Celtiberians produced another very good sword: the Falcata similar in design to the Greek Kopis. The reason for a similar design is probably due to the trade between Celtiberians and Greeks. The origin is either Greek or Hispanic.

[Shepherd78]

I am a collector of all things bladed and plated, he he he. The difference between the chain and plate are very vast. The plate is actually designed to take a direct crossbow bolt while the chain would actually split.

I think I read that the chain was lighter than the plate, well that is true in a matter of speaking but you have to realize that if all the weight is on your shoulders then that wouldn’t be a good thing. The plate armor, especially the roman style is made so the weight is distributed. The full suits are actually made so that each piece is supported by another keeping most all of the weight off the person. I know it sounds weird but wearing the stuff my self I can tell you that if I was a soldier I would much rather march in the Roman plating than chain any day.

Hope this helps,

[lancer63]

Quote[/b] (Basil II @ April 25 2004,13:58)]it was celtic design, i believe. the romans also got their earlier helmet designs from them as well (not sure if it was the spanish celts or not, though).

pax
The short stabbing sword was known as 'gladia hispanica' for obvious reasons. But it is also true its design has celtic origins. Celtic-iberian origins, but celtic nonetheless.
I understand the helmets have a lot of celtic design and it's no wonder. Remember that Rome was almost destroyed by celtic technology, armies and tactics. And Rome absorbed and adapted them to defeat their creators.